for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

What has been reason for the passing game resurgence?

sg0508 : 1/29/2008 8:27 am
1) Eli simply playing better
2) Shorter passes (simpler playcalling by Gilbride)
3) The emergence of Steve Smith as a legit #3 (finally)
4) Ahmad Bradshaw indirectly helping with his running

What is your feeling?

To me, I think it's Smith being the reliable #3. It really does make a difference.

Like most things in life, it's never one thing but I think since returning from his shoulder and hamstring injury, Smith has helped to re-open some things out there.
...  
SamTheTram : 1/29/2008 8:33 am : link
I think it has a lot to do with Smith being a legimate threat to a defense. When Jacobs is on the field, it forces the defense to bring an extra defender into the box. Now that defenses have to account for Smith, you have Plaxico and Toomer getting better matchups.
Steve Smith  
shockey07458 : 1/29/2008 8:36 am : link
has made a difference because he runs excellent routes and is taking over some of Shockey's role combined with Eli taking 3 step drops and getting in more of a rhythm early.
5)  
oreos : 1/29/2008 8:40 am : link
All of the above?
A lot of factors...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 8:40 am : link
Eli getting more comfortable with the offense, Smith being healthy and Toomer now fully recovered from the knee, Plaxico getting stronger instead of weaker, and the diverse running attack.

I don't think much has changed in the way of routes or passing options, as the play calling looks similar to the rest of the year.
Shockey got hurt  
rockythompson : 1/29/2008 8:42 am : link

and Baby Bavaro is taking over...
sg  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 8:43 am : link
its not just shorter passes, but its also less overall complication in terms of an inordinate amount of option routes for each WR/TE on any given play.

They have called far more DESIGNED plays i.e plays with more finite and clear reads, roll-outs, slants, plays with 1-2 quick reads vs. 5 or more etc.

Couple that with a stronger commitment to the run, you see the 'magical' metamorphis of Eli.

Truth is if we had went to this type of playcalling 2 years ago , we would have seen similiar results. Eli coming out was more polished than both Rivers and Roeth. With our weapons free to just beat thier man instead of trying to out-cute them (a Tiki and Shockey term) we would have performed much more consistently on O.
And heeeeeeerrrrrreeeeee's.....  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 8:44 am : link
JOE.

Holy shit the act is tiring.
Fatman  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 8:46 am : link
I cant wait to see your back-tracking or comical continued denial if/when after the season players discuss much of the simplifications done to our previously option heavy O.
defenses  
CrushBrady : 1/29/2008 8:52 am : link
For the past 4 weeks - we've had teams walking up on us and
playing a lot of man coverage. In fact Simms interview, and
Eli stated we planned to get the ground game going in GB but
based on the looks - daring single coverage on Plax - we knew we could move the ball.

Obviously it changes Eli's reads. At Minnesota, they claimed they rolled and gave different presnap coverage looks throwing Eli off... I'm sure we'll see more mental stuff from the Pats and they'll try and get into the throwing lanes....

They may walk LB'ers up into gaps pulling and rushing some trying to break the pick up protections, which honestly scares the piss out of me... just picturing Eli frazzled is my biggest worry, hopefully a few early big plays to Bradshaw... Jacobs loosen up the looks we'll see and have them play on their heels.

We do drive early in the 1st quarter against many teams and that changes the defenses we see.... Anyone else getting nervous/overlypsyched?
fatty  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 8:53 am : link
first it was making fun of the fact I continually said this offense was ridiculously complicated. Then when practically every good analyst out there including a bunch of former Qbs including one who PLAYED in this offense said it is one of, if not the most complicated system out there regarding too many reads etc., now you have the audicity to try to hang on to something to try and discredit my assertions.

Its already been proven (to those who arent in self denial or have an agenda) that this offense was one of the most complicated. Now Im betting, it'll be soon be confirmed that it was simplified as well (in fact comments have already begun on this, though not nearly as much as the analysis confirming how complicated this O used to be).

Listen to Phil Simms analysis on the fan a couple days back on WFAN.com. He already begins to talk about this. How the O took a long time to find what works best for it etc.
Steve Smith has changed the passing game along with Plax ankle mending  
Rich_Houston_WR_1971 : 1/29/2008 8:56 am : link
imo...
Another reason is  
TheBigBlueOne : 1/29/2008 8:57 am : link
Plaxico is finally practicing. Before, his ankle injury limited his practice time. Now he's been able to get his timing synchronized with Eli. That NFC Championship game was a crime against Al Harris. It looked like a two-on-one against Harris. Eli throws the ball, Plaxico already turns his head and is waiting for it while Harris is still running ahead.
commitment to the run  
giantfanboy : 1/29/2008 8:59 am : link
remember Jacobs came back after injuries and Bradshaw finally started to get touches

Giants are running the football even when behind in the game
by being a balanced attack they are opening up opportunites for Eli
Joe  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 8:59 am : link
You're full of shit, it's flowing out of your ears:

"Bill
JerseyJoe : 1/28/2008 9:27 pm
The fact that you still claim Eli magically improved without admitting what numerous analysts including 6 other former NFL Qbs have said that the O was simplified..."

Who are these numerous analysts and 6 other QBs again?
He finally got it  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 9:06 am : link
His game as he puts it, "got faster." He was making faster reads...He's simply throwing the ball better and releasing it quicker...Quite a turnaround...
The improved short and intermediary passing game  
TheBigBlueOne : 1/29/2008 9:12 am : link
could also be the result of Eli making his reads quicker, rather than waiting for the open man downfield. Steve Smith's ability to gain separation is vital to Eli when he makes his reads. Kevin Boss is the safety valve as he is almost ignored in favor of the Wide Receivers. All Eli needs, any QB needs, is time to make the reads.

That would mean there has been no shift in the play calling, no change in the decision making on the WR's part. It's merely execution between QB and WR.

No change in playcalling can explain why Eli performed well in the freezing Green Bay weather. Previously, all we've heard, and mostly believed, is that Eli sucked in the cold. Yet the below freezing temperature barely fazed him. Eli continued his solid football. If the cold was his weakness, nothing Kevin Gilbride nor Tom Coughlin can draw up would help Eli then. It was up to him to handle his grip, and his throws better. Thankfully, his Wide Receivers and Tight Ends are giving him the room he needs to make the throw, while Eli himself just threw better in the cold.
all of the above  
haper : 1/29/2008 9:12 am : link
Why do ppl have to hang Eli's recent success on just one factor ? As anything in life, such an drastic change is almost always a combination of events.

If - as some ppl are saying - it is b/c of just one thing like Plax's ankle mending, Smith becoming a valid 3rd option, Brandshaw's emergence, etc. Then the Giants and us fans are in big trouble, b/c that would mean once this factor goes away via injury, etc next year we're back to the same old Eli.
coaching vs execution...  
SHO'NUFF : 1/29/2008 9:13 am : link
chicken or the egg?
TheBig  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 9:14 am : link
Good post. I believe Plax and Smith practicing is having a major impact on the timing and execution, etc.
I  
Fred in Atlanta : 1/29/2008 9:16 am : link
would add Plaxico actually practicing.
haper  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 9:17 am : link
because Joe is a complete nitwit who refuses to admit he was wrong?
i agree  
therealsin : 1/29/2008 9:18 am : link
with joe
Joe..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 9:33 am : link
you are the one full of crap. These "analysts" who claimed the offense has been simplified, are they the same analysts who said that nobody would come to play for the Giants because of Coughlin? Maybe they were the ones saying that the loss of Tiki Barber would hamstring this team? The ones who predicted they'd lose each postseason game? The ones who said the team would quit when they were 0-2?

I don't believe in "analysts" much, and I certainly don't believe in you - a guy who thinks that he's had the magic formula for success, and then comes here crowing about it when we've continued to do the same damn things over and over throughout the year.

You keep mentioning the quicker passes, the lack of deep balls, the simplified routes, less play action. Each and every one of those points has been refuted. Can't this simply be a case of the QB and the WR's getting it, which times correctly with the #1 and #2 guys getting back to better health and the emergence of Smith and Bradshaw?? Nah. That would be too logical.

It must be the points you mentioned years ago, and Coughlin and the boys looking for a way to lead an errant offense turned to BBI's junior OC for guidance.

I'm just glad spags hasn't done the same thing so that the 2-9 isn't at play.
If people truly think the game plan HASN'T been adjusted at all  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 9:34 am : link
and Eli just got 'it', they are in for quite the suprise.

There is a reason Eli became a world beater practically every time we go into the two minute O. it allows him to be more decisive rather than thinking excessively. The results are as clear as day. And weve seen it over and over.

Finally the staff is calling plays that complement our talent on O. Rather than have them out-think and out-cute everyone, they are going out and simply playing and beating the other guy. And play designs are more often for one or two primary recievers than a free for all, 5 read, all are equal system.

After the season is over Im betting the changes/offensive adjustments will begin to leak even more than they already have.
therealsin  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 9:35 am : link
LOL
It is not so much the O being simplified  
Mike in NY : 1/29/2008 9:36 am : link
As it is a greater realization about the talent we do have and what will put us in the best position to do well. When Eli was struggling it was mainly because we had a scheme that just did not work with the talent we had. Eli is not a "chuck and duck" QB. Eli is at his best passing when he is making quick reads in the short and intermediate passing game and exploiting favorable 1 on 1 match-ups. The only way that happens is if teams respect our ability to get yards on the ground. We need to be successful running the ball early on against the Patriots and force Rodney Harrison to cheat closer to the Line of Scrimmage. New England does not have a good deal of height among their CB's so that could be a potential mismatch for Plaxico if Eli can get the 1 on 1 on the outside
Fatty  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 9:37 am : link
your cute when you try to show everyone who great you are by your big words and weighty window dressing which in actuality mean absolutely nothing.
Joe..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 9:37 am : link
nobody is saying the team hasn't made adjustments. There just isn't this whole new radical approach that has been implemented.

Nothing will be "leaked" unless you want to hear that Gilbride gameplanned for each and every opponent, something all coaches do. After getting 50 games under his belt, why is it so hard to believe Eli didn't just "get it"?? It coincides with the learning curve of many good QB's.
The offense and routes  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/29/2008 9:38 am : link
have not been simplified. Actually they have added to it both in the passing and running game. The running game now has a cutback feature that was missing earlier in the year. The passing game has more 3 step and less play action. The routes run are still based on pre snap reads. Now using the pump fake more to freeze defenders rather than the threat of the run. You see more even number routes in the pattern trees. You see the bunch being employed a little more often. Last week you saw a heavy dose of the back shoulder fade.

Really don't now how you can watch this and think it is simplfied.
Joe  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 9:39 am : link
Let's start here - what changes have leaked out? I must have missed the 6 former QBs who said the offense has been simplified.

Do you see the pressers yesterday? Are the Giants lying or are you full of shit?

Mike  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 9:39 am : link
yes this is a very good part of it. But it is also considered simplification when what you have mentioned has replaced plays that require much more complicated and long developing reads and excessive passing trees.
Joe...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 9:40 am : link
I don't like to be cute. I like to refute idiotic observations. It isn't just me. You've got a lot of posters who see through your BS.

Armchair OC'ing is a great thing, because it means you can pick and choose your times to appear. When we play poorly and the playcalling is bad - here's Joe to tell us why we lost. When we play well and the play calling is good, here's Joe to tell us how the coaches finally came to their senses.

It's a convenient way for idiots to operate.
Mike...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 9:41 am : link
I agree with everything but the play action part. stats show that we are using play action as often as we did in the regular season.
Mike fr Wrwick  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 9:42 am : link
Im not saying it's become Pee Wee football here, but the long developing multi-read plays have been pared down considerably. When a play with multiple routes is called it's from a much smaller set of them meaning they have been practiced more often and are easier to execute. they havent gone entirely nor have I ever said that, but they have been pared down considerably and replaced with more 1-2 read and well designed more decisive playcalling.
Fatman  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 9:45 am : link
there have been plenty of wins, that the playcalling wasnt simplified and i have said as much bub.

Pray tell me why Eli has looked so amazing in the two minute offense the last few years. nah it cant be the fact that it's simpler!

Wow talk about seeing a forest and saying those arent really trees!
Plax being able to practice a bit  
WeatherMan : 1/29/2008 9:45 am : link
each week even if limited has to have helped as well - the timing between Eli and Burress, which had been an issue earlier in the year, was awesome against the Packers.
JerseyJoe,  
barens : 1/29/2008 9:46 am : link
out cute everybody?

I gotta say, I think you're way off base. I believe it's really a simple case of confidence. Manning has been spreading the ball around beautifully, getting almost everyone involved, and each week, there has been a different gameplan going in.

Joe  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 9:47 am : link
Do you have any evidence other than your faulty vision?
Well the  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/29/2008 9:47 am : link
stats are the stats. I concede that point. Unless he has Plax 1 on 1 all the patterns have a read progression. I think we see more even number routes from Plax because his ankle got better.
It appears as though we are using Play action  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 9:52 am : link
a little more with the emergence of Bradshaw...Though it simply may be a question of appearance rather than reality
Simply put  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 9:53 am : link
Manning has been playing better than Simms ever did, which has been my hope...I'm very pleased and relieved...
Why do people on BBI always need a simple answer  
JOrthman : 1/29/2008 10:00 am : link
Its probably a combination of many factors including, but not limited to the ones the initial post listed. Plax is also practicing now and we aren't dropping as many passes.

You guys act as if our passing game has never been good and neither has Eli. The fact is Eli has had good games and so has the passign offense. The difference is they've done it for three consecutive weeks.
While I don't phrase it quite like JJoe...  
Brown Hornet : 1/29/2008 10:03 am : link
...and I didn't bash the coaches. He's right Bill/Fats, the playdesign has changed. I'm not citing ex-NFLers here, you can see it on the TV. In some cases it appears that the "go-route" is a secondary route and the quicker hitters are 1st reads. Early in the season, the "go" was the 1st read and forced Eli to wait longer before trying to hit a slant/dig/out etc...

His drops are shorter and I also believe that the # of "reads" that the WR has to make has changed. Eli really seems to know where the WRs are supposed to be on every pass, he looked unsure earlier on. I don't believe that some sort of light went on in his head. I believe that the offense has been modified to better fit all of the players, not just Eli.
Eli has stopped turning the ball over  
shady : 1/29/2008 10:06 am : link
and he's playing like he understands things.
A number of reasons, including....  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 10:15 am : link
the simplification of the number of reads. I really don't see why that is so hard to understand.
While I doubt the O was simplified for Eli  
shady : 1/29/2008 10:17 am : link
If it was, what does that say about his abilities? How long before a good coach like Belichick preys on the limited passing game and rattles the heck out of Eli?
Brown Hornet  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/29/2008 10:18 am : link
Explain to me all of these reads the WRs were making.
MOOPS  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 10:18 am : link
"the simplification of the number of read"

Not trying to be an ass but what are you basing that on? I assume it's a guess?
Mike  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 10:19 am : link
Good luck on that one...
Shady  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 10:22 am : link
If it was overcomplicated to begin with and you reduced it to roughly the same field that other QBs are playing on, it really means nothing in the context of your statement.
The fewer reads, the quicker two people on each end of the pass route can process the information necessary for success.
Brown Hornet...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 10:22 am : link
I disagree that the play designs have changed. If you look at the routes, they are nearly identical to the ones being run earlier in the year. Perhaps the "go" and the quick hitters are being emphasized differently by Eli, but the play itself is the same.

There are many reasons why the offense has gotten better, Plax being able to practice helps. Toomer over a year removed from surgery is more efficient, and Smith picks up a valuable role as the intermediate guy, something Moss and others just couldn't do.

If the coaches have gotten Eli to "simplify" his reads, that isn't a different play call, that is a different point of emphasis they are coaching him on.

Personally, I think we are watching eli blossom. Whether it is because he doesn't have Shockey out there or if it is because he has strung a couple of good performances together and is reading things better, I don't know. I'm pretty sure that most of it isn't due to different play calls though.

Mike fr Warwick nailed it above - the routes and tree routes are identical, and in some cases even more complicated than before (due ot Smith playing well). Eli is just hitting guys with more frequency and accuracy.
brown  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 10:24 am : link
well said...you are one of the few here that get it.
Joe - BSing us again - what a shocker  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 10:29 am : link
You're so full of shit, it's flowing out of your ears:

Quote:
Bill
JerseyJoe : 1/28/2008 9:27 pm
The fact that you still claim Eli magically improved without admitting what numerous analysts including 6 other former NFL Qbs have said that the O was simplified...


Who are these numerous analysts and 6 other QBs again?
Bill...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 10:31 am : link
you know better. Just like the 2-9, if he finds 6 analysts, they will be covered in crusty brown shit from being pulled out of his ass.
I'm trying, but I just  
bob in tx : 1/29/2008 11:10 am : link
don't get the "the offense has been simplified" argument.Nothing about the Giants offense looks simpler to me. The Wrs got healthy,Bradshaw took the carries that Ward was getting(and performed well),Gilbride's game-planning has been successful and Eli et al got a major dose of confidence coming out of the Pats game. Eli is playing better. Athletes get "hot". Eli's hot.Plax and Smith are healthy.
FMiC  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 11:11 am : link
It's the Maddenization of football. I'm betting Joe has spent many hours playing with schemes and rosters in Madden. Execution is meaningless to these guys.
Bill  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 12:49 pm : link
I overlooked your question. Silly me.
A guess? Sure. But an educated guess.
I said a number of reasons, that being one of them. I don't think you can explain it solely by the light going on for Eli, although that's partly the case also. If the system is made more user friendly, it would follow that one would find it easier to succeed in such a system.
Analysts, Tilfer, Hasselbeck, Jaws among others (persons who have much more football knowledge than me, or even you), have described our system as very difficult with multiple reads on both ends.
Simplification is one of a few reasons, IMO, for our improved passing game. To simply dismiss this theory out of hand is foolish.
When I have a little more time, I'll start a thread listing my theory of all the reasons for success.


MOOPS  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/29/2008 12:54 pm : link
DO me a favor just name 1 read that has been eliminated.
Okay, just let me check my playbook.  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 1:13 pm : link
Oh, wait TC didn't give me one.
Do you get the whole concept behind theories and educated guesses?
Eli is getting the ball out faster, hence less pressure. He's spreading the ball around more, meaning he's able to make reads faster and check down to 3rd or 4th receivers in some cases.
Without a playbook, it's theory. Got it?
MOOPS  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 1:16 pm : link
contradict yourself much?
No  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/29/2008 1:17 pm : link
I don't get it. How is it simplified. What multiple reads are no longer in play? You said it,not me. Now back it up.
How so , Bill.  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 1:18 pm : link
.
I tried...  
Brown Hornet : 1/29/2008 1:20 pm : link
...saying that MOOPS.

Eli is far more deliberate with his passes. Some of the "huess work" has apparently been removed.

Fats, the plays are more than likely very similar, altho there seems to always be a check-down available now that was not always there, but if the order in which Eli is supposed to make reads is different, than the play design is in fact different.

As MOOPS pointed out, it's a theory based on viewing from the TV.
Neither one of you  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/29/2008 1:22 pm : link
have a clue as to what you are talking about. We are talking basic stuff here.
Didnt see anyone mention the O line  
Number17 : 1/29/2008 1:27 pm : link
They are also a factor. Can't cite any stats but it seems to me that Eli has another couple of beats in the pocket.
BH. Theories, when they are not in step....  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 1:29 pm : link
with those who
BH. Theories, when they are not in step....  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 1:30 pm : link
with those who would like to think they're in charge, are bad things.

Mike  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 1:30 pm : link
I agree - Brown Hornet is a nitwit.
Well...  
Brown Hornet : 1/29/2008 1:34 pm : link
...I do raise the batting average here at BBI.

Don't you have something better to do?

Brown  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 1:35 pm : link
LOL - That's sooo me.
Much too difficult for some to comprehend.  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 1:37 pm : link
Drill hole?
Insert fishing line?
Catch fish?
Naaaa, can't be done.
MOOPS  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 1:38 pm : link
Ever try it?
I tried it once...  
Brown Hornet : 1/29/2008 1:40 pm : link
...it just doesn't stay cold long enough down here in Dixie.

anybody got a canoe?

I tried it once...  
Brown Hornet : 1/29/2008 1:41 pm : link
...it just doesn't stay cold long enough down here in Dixie.

anybody got a canoe?

Where I live,  
MOOPS : 1/29/2008 1:45 pm : link
I'd have to find water with fish in it. Then I'd have to pray for a once in a hundred year cold spell for the water to freeze.
The only place to fish in the desert is the Supermarket.
I like that BH at least explains his position...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2008 1:47 pm : link
Quote:
Fats, the plays are more than likely very similar, altho there seems to always be a check-down available now that was not always there, but if the order in which Eli is supposed to make reads is different, than the play design is in fact different.


I just don't agree with it. eli has always had a checkdown available. Perhaps it wasn't as evident early in the year because of Jacobs and Ward being less proficient than Tiki at getting open. We also didn't have a viable 3rd WR until Smith stepped up. Moss wasn't that guy.

I believe the ball is coming out more quickly because Eli trusts either his WR's or himself to put the ball where it needs to be and he may have just caught up to the learning curve needed to make the correct decisions. Most young QB's struggle in that aspect.

The best part is that Eli has put the work in and has kept his head up and it is now apparent he is succeeding. But looking at the plays, there appears to be little difference in them.

Just remember, attacking teams differently (i.e short passes vs. Tampa, long and medium vs. the Pats) is gameplanning. Simplifying the offense would mean that we actually only give the WR's one option and Eli only a couple. That isn't the case. The routes and play designs are the same. anything else that changes within that framework isn't simplification, it is adjustment.

That is a key point of differentiation.
This debate  
dorgan : 1/29/2008 1:51 pm : link
is still going on?

The only thing I've seen that has been simplified is the options to Boss.
It looks like he has a primary pre snap read and his route is determined pre-snap.

Other than that, we've added to our base offense all year.

We have gone back and reinvigorated the waggle series, but that's not new. We ran that last year and a few times early this year.


Brown  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 2:01 pm : link
This is ice fishing Barilko style. Note the blood on the pike.





Bill...  
Brown Hornet : 1/29/2008 2:02 pm : link
...awesome!
ski doo?  
dorgan : 1/29/2008 2:02 pm : link
That company has been out of business since 1969.
You cheap bastard!
Thanks for chiming in dorgan  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 2:03 pm : link
I believe the Plax and Smith getting on the practice field are the biggest factor.

Hey dorgan  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 2:03 pm : link
It carries the beer and bait....what more do you need?
it clearly reads...  
Brown Hornet : 1/29/2008 2:05 pm : link
...ski-booze, or is that an "s"?
ice fishing  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/29/2008 2:06 pm : link
UgH!
gidiefor  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 2:08 pm : link
I know what you mean but I need to get outdoors and fight off the cabin fever. My boys are always reluctant to go but always have a good time when we get on the ice.
Eli doesn't lock in on one receiver anymore  
Greg from LI : 1/29/2008 2:50 pm : link
That's the biggest difference I've noticed. He goes through his progressions much better now, and has made better decisions.

I'm no expert but it seems to me that such simple things can be the cause of his improvements.
Greg  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 2:51 pm : link
You're a helluva lot smarter than JerseyJoe.
Hey  
Suburbanite : 1/29/2008 6:40 pm : link
Joe. The drum store called. They want you to stop beating their products.
Suburbanite  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 6:52 pm : link
Give him points for being persistent
They did a segment on  
bigbluefan92 : 1/29/2008 6:59 pm : link
NFL network playbook on this and the biggest difference seems to be simple ball placement. Eli is placing the ball where his guy can get it and the defense can't. I don't think the scheme is any different really save for a few tweeks here and there. Eli is just playing better. His recievers are getting open quicker. Plax is playing better on that ankle, Toomer is playing at a high level and Smith has begun to impact games.
bigbluefan...  
Suburbanite : 1/29/2008 7:00 pm : link
but what about the 6 former QB's who Joe has failed to name time and again. Surely, the NFL Network wouldn't contradict the viewpoint of those sages?
I don';t really think its a black and white  
bigbluefan92 : 1/29/2008 7:05 pm : link
or I'm right and your wrong kind of an issue in regards to Joe. And I don't discount what guys like Tim Hasselbeck have said. I think the system may be complicated. I think there have been times like the Vikings game when it did hurt us. But when Eli plays well and everything works, it works very well.

dorgan  
Dylan fan : 1/29/2008 7:39 pm : link
Major point there, considering it seemed to me Shockey was by far the receiver most often not on the same page as Eli. & as much as Barko & Fats want to ream Joe, the receivers, & especially Boss, don't seem to be running routes w/ all sorts of options (cut the route off, continue it, cut left or right, come back to the QB) that depend on how the receiver reads what the defense is doing post-snap (i.e. if the receiver sees a CB coming up to cover him, leaving a hole in the D behind him, he may have the option to run a fly. If he runs the fly but Eli doesn't see the CB coming up, he throws it where the receiver was supposed to be B4 he continued running. Chances are the ball gets picked.

Since I don't have transcripts of the broadcasts - & neither does Joe or anyone else - it's pretty friggin' hard to come up w/ quotes of Aikman, Jaws & others saying this was how the O was run. If the receiver & Eli aren't reading the same thing post-snap for whatever reason, balls are not going to be thrown where the receiver is. I don't see why that's difficult to comprehend. Boss probably doesn't know the plays as well as Shockey, so they've simplified his routes by removing his options from them. The plays look like "run 5 yards, cut to the right & the ball will be there 2 seconds later," rather than "run 5 yards, but if you see X coming over to cover you, turn upfield & hopefully Eli will see that X was coming up to cover you & know you're turning upfield."

Eli is making reads faster b/c I think he & the receivers are making fewer of them post-snap. He's been more accurate b/c he's much more sure of where the receivers are gonna be. He doesn't have to take the extra second or 2 or whatever to figure if the receiver might get open if he exercices an option. If he's covered, he goes to the 2nd read, period. Plays develop quicker when they're more cut & dry. I just can't believe a player can get so much better so quickly just b/c he's played the "magical" # of games that a light goes on.

Plax practicing certainly helps a lot. So does having a viable 3rd option in Smith.
We were forced into keeping the TE in to help block on passing plays  
montanagiant : 1/29/2008 7:44 pm : link
With Shocks injury. That eliminates one of Eli's reads and it opens up the Boss option later in the game for key plays

This has then forced us to run plays out of different formations then what we have in the past, which may have surprised teams that have film on us.

Our receivers have also stepped up their play which has been a big factor.
Dylan oh my  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 7:47 pm : link
posting truth and wisdom here...be careful the blind guides are about to come out and try to lead everyone back into the ditch!
Let's have Gilbride put this to rest  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 8:28 pm : link
I don't think the system has changed except for the regular game by game adjustments.
Quote:
(on Eli Manning’s play lately) “It’s like one of the things you hear about those Hollywood stars who are overnight sensations, and then when you get the story you realize that they’ve been doing it for eight or nine years. It’s the same way with him. His work ethic has never changed. He’s been plugging along. His efforts at being completely prepared, knowing exactly what we’re trying to do and understanding what the defenses are going to do have been exemplary. It hasn’t always been reflected that way on gameday. Sometimes we haven’t played as we should. The only thing I can say is that sometimes we haven’t always helped him as much as he’s helped everybody else. He always helps everybody else with protections. Hes everything for the running game. He helps get the receivers to do the right thing. I think what’s happening now is not only is playing better, but the guys around him are raising their level of performance, so that it has collectively turned into a situation where we’re playing pretty well as a unit.”

(more on Eli Manning’s play) “I think he’s always worked at that very diligently, and he’s spent great amounts of energy and time to get himself prepared. It just seems like as a team, we’re playing better so everybody’s complimenting him. But, he’s always worked at that aspect of the game. I think it’s a combination of experience and I think the guys around him are playing a lot better right now. It just looks like he’s had this breakout that is so different from everything else, but it’s really been a steady process. Week-by-week, we’ve taken two steps forward, one step back. But, he has made gradual movement in the right direction. Maybe the decision making that he’s demonstrated over the last five week is probably been the biggest difference from everything else. He just has not made a bad decision. You had that go route down to Steve Smith, and you wish he’d thrown it a little bit more outside and we’d have had a touchdown, but in terms of where to go with the ball, that’s exactly where it needed to go. That’s the way he’s been. He hasn’t made a bad decision with the ball in a long time.”

(on if his play calling has been different and would attribute to the success) “I wish it was an easy thing to identify, or to say it was this game or this quarter. We have not changed our offensive philosophy since Day 1. We’ve always tried to approach each game with an effort to keep defenses off-balance, and yet have us try to maintain a degree of balance in terms of running and passing. But more importantly, to have the ability to adjust as the game went on. What were they overloading and committed to stopping, and then have the ability to exploit that area where they were vulnerable. That’s what we’re doing now, but we’re just being more consistent and successful.”
Pu to rest...  
Brown Hornet : 1/29/2008 8:35 pm : link
...He's vague, which is fine. But he said that the "philosophy" hasn't changed, not some of the plays. Considering that the philosophy that he's speaking of is "keeping them off balance" hell, he could change the entire playbook and not change philosophy.

There have been changes, I can see them and I'm no brighter than most. I agree though, that they have been minor (so some call them adjustments....semantics?) and as most have said, there really, are many factors.
Yup  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 8:36 pm : link
This says it all...'Nuff said...Toot, toot...Mr. Gilbride, if you please:

"I wish it was an easy thing to identify, or to say it was this game or this quarter. We have not changed our offensive philosophy since Day 1. We’ve always tried to approach each game with an effort to keep defenses off-balance, and yet have us try to maintain a degree of balance in terms of running and passing. But more importantly, to have the ability to adjust as the game went on. What were they overloading and committed to stopping, and then have the ability to exploit that area where they were vulnerable. That’s what we’re doing now, but we’re just being more consistent and successful.”

GMen  
Suburbanite : 1/29/2008 8:37 pm : link
Thanks for posting that. A lot of us know that things have clicked, and it seems to be a perfect combination of Eli maturing, Steve Smith being healthy, and Plax and Toomer coming on strong.

I know some people want to point to a simplified playcalling, but most of them aren't saying that based on observation, they are saying that because they said the only way for the offense to improve was by simplifying it.
Eli took a lot of heat  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 8:41 pm : link
this season that was not necessarily on him. He made his poor decisions and yea, those were on him, but the team as a whole recently has just been firing on all cylinders for the most part.

The statements, "Eli couldn't hit the broad side of a barn." or "Eli can't hit a 5 yard slant." were completely baseless, imo. Just as baseless as, "The offense was simplified."


Fiddy??
Oh man  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 8:44 pm : link
talk about coach speak.....a coordinator RARELY admits the play-calling is simplified. But yeah lets take this one coach speak quote over the myriad of analysts who've said that the playcalling was extremely complex and then pared down.

He also deftly never refered to complexity but focused on general philosophy. And to that tune he is correct the general philosophy HASNT changed (though the were a bit pass happy at times) but the complexity defintily HAS.
Joe  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 8:45 pm : link
The QB has stated the same, those who know football, have stated the same. You need to get off the high horse.
Virtually every respected talking head(players, coaches)  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 8:50 pm : link
said that Eli was erratic and inconsitent as hell...He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn on many of his tosses...Quadry Ismail showed game film of Eli before his resurgence and then in the playoffs and it's like night and day...He showed clips where Plac and Toomer came out of their cuts and WAITED for Eli to make a simple toss(he had protection and wasn't harried) and Eli either through to the wrong shoulder or far from their reach...Same routes in Post-season, Eli laid the ball in where it was supposed to be...

I and many others have eyes and Eli was inconsistent as hell...He has taken his game to the next level virtually overnight...
Bullshit then  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 8:52 pm : link
Your full of it in this regard. Did you read the pressers from opposing coaches this year?? Or comments from opposing defensive players (save for the vikings, they know they have his number.)

Bullshit and you know it.
you just completely  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 8:53 pm : link
disregarded Gilbrides first quote then so you could tout yourself for being right. I'm done here, you're stubborn, were wrong, and can't admit.
GMen  
Dylan fan : 1/29/2008 8:56 pm : link
Well, then why have the Barilkos, Fatmans & BB56's of the world been arguing vociferously against that? Gilbride said diddly squat. Nobody doubts Eli's work ethic or that he's made better decisions not throwing to guys covered by 3 defenders. If it was a gradual thing w/ the players getting on the same page I'd be inclined to believe it was just players executing better, but not when it looked 100% better from 1 game to the next.
You're out of your friggin' mind  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 8:57 pm : link
beyond belief...Watch the games, please...Eli was inconsistent for most of his career here...He had some brilliant games, but a few and far between...Since the Pats' game he has gotten it and looked exponentially diffferent...Stubborn? There are very few people who would agree with you...Eli was woeful MORE than he wasn't...Woeful and YOU ARE DONE HERE? Are you serious?

Somebody needs to straighten this guy out, because I'm done with him on this...My lord...Take the blinders off...
And the Toot  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 8:59 pm : link
was to those who claimed that the MAJOR reason Eli has done better is because the PC has been dumbed down for him...KG said that that's not the case...We're all saying that Eli FINALLY got it...Even Eli said yesterday that he is seeing the game "faster" and thus throwing quicker and more accurately...That was from Eli's own mouth...Helloooooo!!!
I'm talking about this season  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 8:59 pm : link
from the WR

(on if QB Eli Manning has improved the past four weeks) “Everybody has asked me that question, saying he has gotten better the past few weeks. But if you look at the start of the season, we started off throwing the ball great. He had a great day in Dallas on opening week when we scored 35 points. (Even though) we lost to Green Bay the second week of the season, we started off very well. We played in some bad weather games, with monsoons and wind blowing 30- and 40-miles per hour. Everybody experienced that during that time. But ever since we were able to go out and execute our offense and throw the football, all of a sudden he’s a magician? He’s (actually) been doing it the whole season. It’s not just been four weeks. We won 10 games. I guess he went home or into his locker and hit a switch and became a magician (laughing). But, he’s been playing well the whole season. I guess ever since London when we had all those bad weather games, (people were saying Manning is a) bad quarterback, he doesn’t play well in bad weather or play well in the cold. But, he has been doing just fine all year, if you ask me. If you look at the success we’ve had as receivers and as running backs catching the ball – we all have some touchdowns – he has been phenomenal not just for four weeks.”



I don't care if he's on the same team and is maybe just being politically correct. The more knows more about the situation then either of us.
Are you saying that Eli's career hasn't been FAR MORE INCONSISTENT  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 9:03 pm : link
than consistent? State the answer clearly, so that the tons who disagree with you can take note and call you on that BS...
Of course  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 9:03 pm : link
the game slowed down. That's the main thing, I've known that. But apparently, before, he couldn't hit the right side of a barn. Whatever. fuck it.
Eli's first 3 years were absolutely inconsistent  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 9:05 pm : link
I don't remember arguing differently. If you can find where I did, I'll eat it. This season, i had been arguing about this season, nothing else.
Ok, so where Am I stubborn then?  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 9:06 pm : link
That's all I've said...He had a great first game against Dallas this year than was shit for a bunch of games thereafter...
Eh nevermind  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 9:09 pm : link
your not stubborn.
Ok  
Big Blue '56 : 1/29/2008 9:12 pm : link
let's root for the Giants AND ELI as bonded fans...:o)
WTF  
Dylan fan : 1/29/2008 9:12 pm : link
What was the excuse, then, for the Minny game? Weather was perfect. Eli, the receivers or both were expecting different things from each other all game. It's looked that way for 3 years too much of the time, whether players were healthy or not. It looks very much like Eli is just going out & playing & not thinking about his mechanics, reads or anything. The receivers aren't throwing their hands up in frustration every other throw. The coaches & players aren't going to say that option routes have been tossed out to whatever extent b/c that could affect how defenders cover. Or maybe the light suddenly went from 20 watts to 1000 watts overnight as if Eli were sprinkled w/ magic Dan Marino QB dust. If it's not already, it should be patented so that every erratic QB can become a star overnight.
sounds like a plan  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 9:12 pm : link
: )

This win is gonna be sweet!
dylan  
GMenLTS : 1/29/2008 9:14 pm : link
a bad game??

What was Peyton's excuse for six INTs against SD?

you can't be perfect every sunday.
1 last thing  
Dylan fan : 1/29/2008 9:18 pm : link
Numerous BBIers have been complaining about playcalling & the Gilbride & Hufnagel not putting the players in the best position to succeed. Now that they're succeeding, it's all of a sudden all b/c the players are executing much better rather than the OC is putting them in a much better position to succeed. I doubt the preparation has changed.
Dylan  
JerseyJoe : 1/29/2008 9:33 pm : link
thanks for shedding some light and not being too scared of the backlash.

There are a few others here who I think are afraid of the backlash who have noticed this too and haven't spoken up.

Its funny how the truth sometimes can be so difficult to comprehend for some. Especially the ones who fancy themselves as intelligent people.

Coach speak and Qb speak....you never blame your coaching it goes against team and leadership concept.

Its crystal clear to unbiased eyes whats going on the field. And Eli didnt just 'magically' improve overnight. We are now seeing College Eli and its because the playcalling is finally allowing him to play more than over-think.



Joe  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 10:01 pm : link
You have proven to be full of shit beyond any reasonable doubt. You're nothing more than a whining MMQB. Every Monday following a lost you post the same crap - this is Coughlin's offense, etc, etc, etc.

You claimed no less than 6 former NFL QBs claimed the offense has been simplified but you refuse to name even one.

I honestly believe you were disappointed to see the Giants offense click.
holy shit  
Bill Barilko : 1/29/2008 10:02 pm : link
This is evidence...a bunch of clueless dipshits complaining?

"Numerous BBIers have been complaining about playcalling"
It all boils down to one flawed concept...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2008 8:02 am : link
and that is that all players come in from college ready to play. You see guys like Ben R. have immediate success or Phillip Rivers starting for the first time last year and going to the playoffs and people say, "Why can't Eli do that"?

He can and he has, but it takes time and maturation - a maturation that has come from studying, practicing, and learning.

And no, Eli's confidence isn't something that was never there, he had glimpses, but he's taken it to a whole new level since week 17. JerseyJoe claims it can only be due to a dumbing down of the playbook and he uses these fictional 6 former QB's as the ones claiming how complex the system is. what he doesn't say is if these fictional people have said that the offense has been simplified. He assumes that since we now are efficient that the only way to get there was due to dumbing things down. An assumption he makes because it is what he's been preaching all along.

That doesn't make it right, and the game tape evidence doesn't back him up. The route running doesn't back him up. Eli's words and Gilbride's words don't back him up. But to him, it doesn't matter.

That, my friends, is aggressive cluelessness at its finest.
I know I'm going to regret this, but what the hell  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 9:09 am : link
other things have me in a bad mood, so this seems like as good a time as any...

There have been announcers and annalysts that have commented on how complicated the system is. I can't name all six because I don't recall all six names, but each time it happened a seperate thread was brought up discussing this persons POV. I've personally heard Jim MILLER and I know AIKMAN, Tim HASSELBECK and Ron JAWORSKI have been brought up on these discussions although I dont' personally recall if it was them or not that brought it up.

HOWEVER, its everyones best guess if anything was simplified or not. The bottom line is no one knows if this happened or not except those on the Giants. We all have our opinion and we could debate it all day. Personally, I have no idea, since I don't have the bennefit of game tape to evaluate and even if I did I don't have the Giants playbook.

Lastly, can we stop with this crap about Eli not being able to hit the brought side of a barn crap argument. Its worse then the people saying the playbook has changed, because it is based in nothing more then opinion and nothing to back it up. Anyone who has been a fan has seen that Eli can and has had some very good games over his career along with some very bad ones. His knock has never been that he can't throw every pass or that he can't play period. His knock has been that he is inconsistant. It's that fact that he does have those really good games and the next can have a really bad game. But, to say he can't throw certain passes or can't it the broad side of a barn is based no where in reality.

You dont' go from not being able to hit the broad side of a barn to being the only QB in the playoffs without an interception. There are several logical reasons that have been laid out by Dorgan, Fatman and others that explain in detail all the things that have helped. However, it is beyond lunacy to think there is some magic switch that just all the sudden went off in Eli's head that allowed him to do what he has the last three weeks.
JOrthman...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2008 9:30 am : link
you hit the nail on the head with the first comment. There have been a lot of people saying how complex the offense is. that is one thing. But where are these people/analysts/former QB's saying that the offense has now been simplified??

That is the major flaw of JerseyJoe's argument. He contends that the only way to be successful with a complex offense is to dumb it down, which doesn't have to be the case, nor does it appear to be the case.

It's like saying that because somebody struggles to solve the Rubik's Cube that when they finally do, it is only because of a new version released with solid colors on all 6 sides.
No magical switch  
Big Blue '56 : 1/30/2008 9:36 am : link
He became more consistent, confidence grew and voila...Not rocket science...

Perhaps Gilbride might make it clearer:

"I wish it was an easy thing to identify, or to say it was this game or this quarter. We have not changed our offensive philosophy since Day 1. We’ve always tried to approach each game with an effort to keep defenses off-balance, and yet have us try to maintain a degree of balance in terms of running and passing. But more importantly, to have the ability to adjust as the game went on. What were they overloading and committed to stopping, and then have the ability to exploit that area where they were vulnerable. That’s what we’re doing now, but we’re just being more consistent and successful.”

"...We have not changed our offensive philosophy since Day 1...."

"...That’s what we’re doing now, but we’re just being more consistent and successful.”


Passing offense 101.  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/30/2008 9:51 am : link

When a WR lines up he has several reads he must make in order not to run directly into coverage. Giving you the short version. The leverage the CB is playing. If needed I will explain that. Then the safeties. Can explain that too. Then the LB alignment.Often the the defense will stem late in the count and the WR will have to make the reads again.

An example. Defense shows cover 1, stems into a cover 2. The WR was going to run an out but because the defense changed he runs a quick slant. That is why they have a passing tree. Based on the coverage the QB and WR know whether the route will be inside,outside or deep. Hence the numbering of the routes in the passing tree. You can't lock in routes you must read the coverage.

Simplifying the offense is not eliminating those critical reads. It is reducing the number of plays in the game plan and focusing on the execution of said plays.
Fatman  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 10:00 am : link
If you read further down I answered your question. While several mentioned how complicated it is, no one, unless your on the team and have the playbook could say if it was changed. The rest has just been conjecture by BBI, which is typical.
JOrthman...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2008 10:03 am : link
I understood that. I was pointing it out for emphasis for people like JerseyJoe, who apparently needs to be hammered with details such as those.
BB56  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 10:05 am : link
Here is what I don't understand. When you come up with a post like your last one I don't disagree with it at all. I disagree on your assertions in previous posts that he couldn't hit the broad side of the barn. Its clear to everyone that he has had great games and made all the throws, as you say he just hasn't been consistant.

Several people on this thread, BBI and announcers have listed several logical reasons why he has showed consistancy in the playoffs. These have included, but have not been limited to, having Plax practice more, emergence of Bradshaw and Smith, entire team playing bettter, etc...

All of those reasons to include Eli just throwing better are all logical reasons why we have looked better. My problem is when we use the hyperbolic statments like, "can't hit the broad side of a barn."
JO  
Big Blue '56 : 1/30/2008 10:05 am : link
Gilbride said it hasn't...
BB56  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 10:07 am : link
In none of my posts did I say it changed either.
JO  
Big Blue '56 : 1/30/2008 10:08 am : link
Many of his throws in 4 years couldn't hit any side of the barn, but my major contention has ALWAYS been that his inconsistencies are frustrating as hell, giving rise to the question of when was he going to finally "get it?" He obviously has...His consistency has been a joy to watch...
Here's a few of the OBVIOUS reasons why the passing game has improved:  
eclipz928 : 1/30/2008 10:08 am : link
1)Health/Effectiveness of the Wide Receivers

1a) Steve Smith - he's recovered from a hamstring injury and probably now is the healthiest wide receiver on the team. He is finally getting involved more in the offense.

1b) Plaxico Burress - besides the ankle, don't forget that Plax has had to recover from a knee injury from mid-season. He's gotten healthier and has improved since the earlier weeks of the season (story on the front page quotes him as saying he's at 97%...excellent), and I think we saw some of that quickness come back in the Green Bay game.

1c) Amani Toomer - I'll admit that I had been pretty critical of Toomer all season long about him not getting separation, but maybe I underestimated his recovery time on the torn achilles (he's now a year removed from it). He still has a case of the dropsies, but it looks like he's been getting open more often.

1d) Boss/Shockey - there's no way I'll say that Boss is an improvement over Shockey, but there's no denying that Eli and Shock have struggled this season to get on the same page. I don't think that sort of miscommunication exists with Boss, and it helps that the Giants don't feel compelled to stretch him down the field or run any complicated routes with him. Plus, he's been the most reliable reciever when it comes to catching the ball.


2) Weather conditions: It seems like everytime someone wants to ridicule Eli the first game they go back to this year is the Buffalo game. It was a game with 25mph winds, rain AND snow. Eli threw 11 total passes in that game I believe. Not the best game to reference. The Giants have played a lot of games this year in some pretty crappy weather - let's not forget the conditions against Miami, Washington, and Chicago. Keep in mind that poor weather doesn't just affect the QB, it affects the receivers as well - that goes understated quite often.

I don't understand why it's so hard for some people to believe that Eli Manning was already a capable quarterback who was placed at a disadvantage this season. Many "analysts" and some BBIers just seem to go out of their way to attribute the Giants' success to everything but Eli - I think he's earned a little more respect than that by now.

I'm not going to go into the playcalling and how that has affected him because I just want to make the point that some people are selectively overlooking the obvious differences between now and midseason.
Key point.  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/30/2008 10:11 am : link
Simplifying the offense is not eliminating those critical reads. It is reducing the number of plays in the game plan and focusing on the execution of said plays.
BB56  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 10:14 am : link
Every QB has bad passes that make you wonder who the hell he was throwing it to and some do it more then others. His own brother and even the great Tom Brady have had games in which they threw several interceptions.

However, when you say he can't hit the broad side of the barn, that implies there are throws he can't make. He has clearly shown over four years that he can make every throw. His problem has not been that he can't throw the passes, the problems have been he hasn't been able to consistantly do it.

JO  
Big Blue '56 : 1/30/2008 10:18 am : link
That's not the implication at all...He may very well have been able to make "every throw," just not within reach of his receivers...10 feet over their heads, countless feet behind or in front of, too numerous to count balls thrown in the dirt or at their feet and so on...That's what we all saw until recently...

He still makes shitty throws at times, but as you pointed out, all QBs do...The difference is that he is very consistent now and the shitty throws no longer define his game in the main...
For the hundredth time Fatty and others  
JerseyJoe : 1/30/2008 10:20 am : link
First off I'd like to personally thank Fatty for actually acknowledging/admitting that numerous sources have in fact said this system is extremely complex. That in itself is finally a good step for someone so prideful.

Secondly I will yet again clarify what I meant by simplification. I never said it meant taking out ALL option routes, thats absolutely false. However they have pared down the number of excessive option plays, they have started calling plays that complement our recievers skills sets the best. I.E motioning Toomer and finding the soft spot in the zone D (Toomer has been very good at this). Using Burresses size and calling more specific plays that take advantage of his skill vs. heavy option stuff that takes away from his aggressiveness. Also calling designed quick hitting plays with 1-2 primary quick hitting reads like slants and or rollouts designed to hit crossers etc.

It is a quite the change vs. calling predominantly long developing and/or multi-option plays where EVERYONE is a primary read and EACH reciever has up to 5 passing trees to choose from. That type of playcalling could make virtually any Qb's head swim (along with recievers high on AA but short on cerebral ability like Shock and Plax- hence the NUMEROUS mis-reads with a reciever going one way ball going the other).

Did i clear that up enough for you???
Joe  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/30/2008 10:30 am : link
You are talking out your ass.<b>Describe an excessive option route.</b>The time a play takes to develop is in direct relation to the depth of the drop. When the ball does not come out at that step it is because people were not open not because it was designed that way. WRs do not chose from 5 passing trees on plays. Just make it up?
What is  
dorgan : 1/30/2008 10:32 am : link
completely clear, is that you don't know shit about football.
Multiple passing trees?

Heh.
You talk our of your ass so much that your breath has got to be alarmingly bad.



BB56  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 10:32 am : link
I don't know how else you could take it. I think it was obvious he could make every throw, because over the last four years he has.

Stop with the exagerations and Hyperbole. You act as if every throw he made was 10 feet over peoples head. Were some of his passes off? Sure, every QB has passes that are off, even the great ones. He has thrown some really bad throws and some really good ones. But when you make statements like that, you act is if the guy was the worst QB in the NFL. You don't make the playoffs and win consistantly if your team has a QB that can't hit the broad side of the barn.

The only difference we are seeing now is that he has been MORE consistant. It is not that some magical switch happened in his brain that dropped his throws by 10 feet.
No, you didn't clear it up...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2008 10:35 am : link
The plays they are calling now are the same ones they've been calling all year, with a point of emphasis on who the opponent is - that's basic gameplanning.

That is why against the Bucs we went with a controlling, short passing game vs. a wide-open style against the Pats. Like Dorgan mentioned above, our offense has been fine-tuned and has actually incorporated MORE plays into the fold as the year progressed. Not less. Not less complicated.

By the way, the point about Toomer is completely false. Toomer has always been regarded as the possession WR because he finds spots. This isn't something new or something that has been used more of. In fact, Toomer has been used more on crossing patterns than before and waggles.

Joe - I admit people call this offense complex - it is. But that has NO CORRELATION to a successful offense suddenly becoming simple. Why does it have to be simplified to succeed?? It doesn't and it hasn't.
dorgan  
Bill Barilko : 1/30/2008 10:39 am : link
very well said. With most posters, that would the end debate. We'll see.
Its the same plays  
montanagiant : 1/30/2008 10:42 am : link
Without Shockey as one of the check offs.

That does not equate to simplifying the offense
Barillko  
dorgan : 1/30/2008 10:44 am : link
it ended it for me.
I just put him on my permanently ignore list.

I don't like to waste time with people who refuse to listen and make up their own facts.
Fuck 'em. Let them live in ignorance.

(cue the Battle Hymn of the Republic playing in the background)

This is America!

Many brave men died so that JJ could retain the right to be an idiot.
If he's a masquerading Canadian, all bets are off.
JO.  
Big Blue '56 : 1/30/2008 10:45 am : link
You didn't see the same QB HBrew, HomerJones45, Barilko, myself, et al did...We'll agree to disagree...
BB56  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 10:53 am : link
LOL, so what does that mean? I could of told you that before we started. I could list a group of posters that would agree with me, but what the hell would be the point? In the end it would just be everyones opinion.

In the end I guess we agree to disagree.
Things like dropped passes  
crick78 : 1/30/2008 11:03 am : link
players running wrong routes were a bigger problem than most think in my opinon.
Eli could not hit the broad side of a barn  
crick78 : 1/30/2008 11:04 am : link
and the wrs couldn't catch a cold. fair enough
I'll be interested to see how  
Go Terps : 1/30/2008 11:12 am : link
things pick up when Shockey returns. I think it'll answer a lot of questions.
JOrthman  
Bill Barilko : 1/30/2008 11:14 am : link
It means you were wrong - that's OK, BB 56 has been wrong before too.
jorth  
GMenLTS : 1/30/2008 11:16 am : link
you're not wrong, don't listen to the nitwits.

That's right Barilko, your own word used against you.

: )

Seriously Jerseyjoe, get off your high horse, it's leading you off the deepend.
sad i have to explain this for your dorgy  
JerseyJoe : 1/30/2008 11:30 am : link
multiple passing trees = multiple options routes for each recieving option on a given play. The number and complexity of the OVERALL reads/options far outnumber other playbooks and has been a main factor of miscommunications ,bad reads ints ,bad body language from Eli/WRs etc..

THIS facet has been pared down. I.E. instead of 10-15 overall options /reads/ adjustments the quarterback and recievers have to collectively make, it is now 5-10 and sometimes less on most of the plays.

Does it mean the playbook has changed? not necessarily. they could just be calling the less thought-intensive/'heavy read and react' type plays and focusing on calling plays that are simpler but still take full advantage of the D formation.

This is a shift to a playcalling based O (where the onus is more on the playcalling) vs. a QB based O (where the onus is more on the Qb to always make the right read)

get it now 'coach' or still too difficult to grasp?
Are you a fucking...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2008 11:37 am : link
imbecile or are you trying to lecture a respected coach on football matters??

Holy shit - I thought I had seen it all. I think dorgan lost more football knowledge in his morning stool than you've accumulated in the warped world you watch.

I'm with him - I'm done on this thread.

Glory, Glory Hallelujah!!

GMENLTS  
JerseyJoe : 1/30/2008 11:38 am : link
first off Im not wrong about this.

#2 I dont see anyone here admitting how wrong they were when I have vehemently stood by the fact that this O was one of the most complicated in the entire NFL. Ive said this for 3 years now, very few people here agreed with me
, and of course was unmercifully mocked by the resident wannabe pundits the whole time.

it turns out I was quite right in the face of all the ridiculous criticism here. but yeah of course no one wants to come forth and admit that.

Its much easier to keep pouring on the insults, but Its ok. I have no problem standing by what I know to be true.

This will be proven correct as well and many here will twist it and say that wasnt what I said and make stuff up. Just like the famous 2-9 LOL.

Go back and read the archives I never said anything about a 2-9. However i did say using a similiar defense to what Bill B used against Buffalo in Super Bowl 25.


Joe  
Bill Barilko : 1/30/2008 11:41 am : link
One last question - pick any play and explain to us how you know it's been simplified (trees, options, etc eliminated)?

humble yourself  
GMenLTS : 1/30/2008 11:41 am : link
Don't think you're completely right, you might have a part of the equation but your arrogance takes away your credibility. I'll leave it at that.
LTS  
Bill Barilko : 1/30/2008 11:43 am : link
you misspelled 'fucking idiocy"
lol  
GMenLTS : 1/30/2008 11:45 am : link
.
All I have to say is  
CL : 1/30/2008 11:47 am : link
LOL.
A 'passing tree'  
shepherdsam : 1/30/2008 11:52 am : link
is made up of all the routes we run, it is so named because when all the routes are drwn from the same starting point, it loosely resembles a tree.

No one has multiple passing trees. Everyone has multiple routes.
shep  
dorgan : 1/30/2008 11:54 am : link
I take back what I said about Canadians.
Well, most of it.
some of it?

That's alright coach,  
shepherdsam : 1/30/2008 11:55 am : link
I love you anyway.
Sorry, you're all wrong.  
CL : 1/30/2008 11:55 am : link
A passing tree is actually a quarterback like Drew Bledsoe.
CL  
GMenLTS : 1/30/2008 11:56 am : link
nails it!!!
That would be a post,  
shepherdsam : 1/30/2008 11:56 am : link
a tree would imply an ability to grow.
eh  
GMenLTS : 1/30/2008 12:00 pm : link
semantics.
Are you saying you are anti-semantic?  
shepherdsam : 1/30/2008 12:02 pm : link
.
damn  
GMenLTS : 1/30/2008 12:07 pm : link
right, fucking canucks!
shep  
JerseyJoe : 1/30/2008 12:12 pm : link
thanks for the clarification. ive never said i am an expert in terminology but i do have a good sense of observation.

But those who arent biased can see through my 'inarticulateness' and see exactly what Im talking about.

Instead those with the agenda want to pick on the small inacurracies rather than understanding the whole picture.
Not knowing what a passing tree is....  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2008 12:16 pm : link
is NOT a small inaccuracy, especially when it serves as the focal point for your misdirected rant.
Joe - again  
Bill Barilko : 1/30/2008 12:24 pm : link
Joe
Bill Barilko : 11:41 am
One last question - pick any play and explain to us how you know it's been simplified (trees, options, etc eliminated)?
my thinking  
Celtic33 : 1/30/2008 12:31 pm : link
they aren't looking for the big play - just looking to get yards and first downs, and ultimately kill the clock while they put points on the board...
Steve Smith and Bradshaw as well as Boss provide flexibility for all receivers to get open. Smith, mark my words, will be a big player in this league. I gave him a contract in my fantasy league!
Anyway, I actually feel confident in this team now on 3rd downs. Too many options and finally some real good play calling. It seems to have all finally fallen into place and clicked - not just with the players but the coaches calling plays as well.
so Joe, you're not an expert in football terminology  
YAJ2112 : 1/30/2008 12:50 pm : link
what exactly are you an expert in when it comes to football that would allow you to put into context what it is you are observing on TV?
Bill B  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 1:08 pm : link
I'll admit I'm wrong, when you do...deal? ;)

GMEN: I give Bill B a little leeway because I've seen him drunk and acting as a letch...;)
wow this is an ugly thread  
MindlessBanter : 1/30/2008 1:10 pm : link
i think it's a complex system that requires players to be on the same page. i think a lot of the passing game issues were due to people not being on the same page. it was either gilbride or coughlin that said that eli hasn't changed so much as the players around him have elevated their play. i think they are now making correct reads a higher percentage of time.

i don't think they simplified the offense in any significant way. i think they should look at doing that next year though. when the players don't understand what they're supposed to be doing, it's on the coaching. either the coaches' system is too complex or they're not doing a good enough job of preparing their players.
deal!  
Bill Barilko : 1/30/2008 1:11 pm : link
.
I like the design of the offense.  
Mike fr Warwick : 1/30/2008 1:18 pm : link
I don't think it's too complicated. This is the NFL. Routes are determined by coverage. You have to be able to read them and adjust. The Giants are fortunate as they have 2 mismatches in Shockey and Plax.
so we're basically  
GMenLTS : 1/30/2008 3:57 pm : link
waiting for the apocalypse for either of you two to admit defeat???
Joe  
Suburbanite : 1/30/2008 6:45 pm : link
is in rare form here, even for him.

First, he claims to see things oin TV the rest of us don't, then he can't tell the difference between passing trees and patterns and blames it on not knowing the terminology.

So he arrogant but clueless all at the same time. That's quite the Daily Double.

By the way, Dorgan is dead on.
GMEN  
JOrthman : 1/30/2008 11:23 pm : link
Not on my end, I'm one of the few on BBI who will admit it.
Yea,  
GMenLTS : 1/30/2008 11:24 pm : link
I think I was more referring to BB, oh well. Kind of useless comment on my part.
well...  
Brown Hornet : 1/31/2008 12:27 am : link
...ya'll are funny.

Gilbride changed some things.

Eli fixed some things.

Some of the young guys did some things.

Plax and Amani did their things.

~
And that's the  
TheBigBlueOne : 1/31/2008 7:42 am : link
tooth.
My first mug of tea and this  
Big Blue '56 : 1/31/2008 7:51 am : link
"... I think dorgan lost more football knowledge in his morning stool than you've accumulated in the warped world you watch...."

BBI rocks!!!
Don't underestimate...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/31/2008 7:57 am : link
the power of bran.....
Oooh  
Big Blue '56 : 1/31/2008 8:03 am : link
Kinky!
JOrthman  
Bill Barilko : 1/31/2008 8:13 am : link
That's great news - you're making progress.
Bill B.  
JOrthman : 1/31/2008 10:23 am : link
Unfortunately, not as much as you.
Get it now, or still too difficult to grasp?  
Chicken Teriyaki Boy : 1/31/2008 5:31 pm : link
Quarterbacks coach Chris Palmer completely shot down the notion that a reduced or changed game plan is responsible for Eli Manning’s remarkable turnaround. “If you went back to our first game plan this year, you’d find a lot of similarities to our last game plan,” he said.
Back to the Corner