Interesting post about the Patriots by NEinsider on ESPN.com

are you talking about?

claim that this was "worse" than the Black Sox scandal was revolting. I don't particularly care for the Patriots or their fans but to pretend that their rather intrusive scouting efforts, attempts I would bet money are equaled or exceeded by other teams, are on par with literally throwing a World Series is asinine.

NEInsider Post #1: May 12, 11:41 am Quote | Report Violation Total Posts: 10

We were wrong and made a mistake. We as an organization failed and it will never happen again. Every NFL memo is now processed, analyzed, passed thru legal, and presented to both Bill, Scott., and all the coaches with the potential legal ramifications so EVERYONE knows what not to do.

That said here are the simple facts I know about Spygate and WalkthruGate:

1. We taped defensive signals and offensive formation signals and we still have video of other teams taping us. They are of little value since no team uses the same signals even from game to game, quarter to quarter, and sometimes from series to series. We do it to FORCE the opposition to stay on thier toes and change signals hoping they mix up signals and have a bad play that results in a big play for us. There are no offensive signals only formation signals which are useless and they were taped at the same time as offensive signals and WERE possibly even on the Spygate tape. Any claims are baseless on this.

2. As to those that wanted Bill to talk about it after it happened this is what happened. We were forbidden by the NFL and God, aka Goodell, from speaking about this in public to ANYONE. Bill was told to keep his mouth SHUT and to offer no comment before and AFTER the initial resolution by the NFL. If Bill had commented or held a press conference the fine and penalties would have been increased. This indicated to us we were guilty before any investigation and were the example Goodell wanted to show the NFLPA he wasn't biased towards players only. Quite pathetic if you ask me but again we were wrong and put ourselves into this position.

3. We did not want the tapes destroyed. We preferred they be released since they basically proved we did nothing since some of the tapes destroyed were processed tapes that prove there was little value to us other than aggravating the other team . Several showed coaches waving to our videographer, several other with obscene gestures, coaches laughing at us, and some hot cheerleader video for the enjoyment of those given the boring job of proecessing video that had zero intrinsic value.

4. Based on player involvement and packages sent onto the field we know instantly what the base defense is before we call the offensive signal. Tom then looks at the manner in which the opponent lines up and 75% of the time knows the exact defense being run and after the snap knows what is happening 99% of the time. If a team throws a new wrinkle it is cataloged and legally photgraphed from the Coaches Box and sent automatically down for analysis. Sometimes, think Giants in SB, it takes time to re-tool the offensive scheme for a great defensive game plan. By the end of the Superbowl we had the Giants defense figured out but in a tribute to the Giants DC that defense was a thing of beauty and the most difficult defense to decipher. It is sort of what we did to Rams in 2001 SB. Eventually they figured it out and thankfully for us in 2001 and unfortunately for us in 2007 SB it was too late. That defense will NEVER work against us again.

5. Goodell has serious issues within the NFL ownership. He has not made friends with his inability to keep his mouth shut before issues are resolved within the framework of the NFL structure. The Niners organization is livid at him for the sanction they received over free agent contact since they never initiated the contact and in this case everyone really does it.

6. The Kraft family was a Goodell supporter and will never openly criticize him but they are livid over the way Spygate was handled and the fact Goodell hung them out as "Cheaters" when he absolutely knew it never helped during a game and then on national TV aknowledged frivilous accusations like phone tampering etc. when he stated more punishment would be added if necessary instead of doing the right thing and stating such claims were baseless without proof since he knew we could never tamper with phones since we never knew what system or what frequency was availbale to us until game time. A little clue on this one. Not having Robert and Jonathon Kraft on your side makes job security an issue since they are the deal makers and the ownership most willing to compromise to help the smaller market teams. In other words they have lots of friends in the NFL ownership circle.

7. I just learned about this fiasco. We knew early on about Mr Walsh. Goodell should have headed this off but for whatever reason did not. Goodell let it come to what it is today since we were forbidden to talk about it again. We were assured by Goodell nothing would come of it since there was nothing he could have that could harm us. From day one Goodell knew there was no available power to video anything during a walkthru and that we had NO batterypacks when there to setup our cameras. The fiasco at the Superbowl is Goodell's fault and it did not cost us the win. The Giant defense won the game but it certainly made the experience at this Superbowl unpleasant. This was another strike with the kraft family in particular.

8. I now believe John Tomase was set up by either Spector, Comcast, or Walsh's lawyer or a combination thereof with that story and I actually think they were the source. In retrospect he probably should have known better since his sources had agendas but Tomase was always one of the most pleasant reporters around the team. It is sad but he could lose his position over this because certain unscrupulous politicians, lawyers, and companies had an agenda designed to embarrass the NFL and used him as a dupe. For Tamase's sake I hope he recorded those conversations and realizes his ultimate responsibility is to release those conversations, if he has them, let the truth come out, and possibly save his butt. At worst he should reveal who they were and let the chips fall where they should.

Lets stop trying to put a square peg into a round hole and call it successful. THEY CHEATED...and they did so more times then they admitted.

Not punishing them is a travesty

implies that they won at least one game because of the taping. How do you know that's the case?

cheating is OK as long as it's not effective?

if it's not effective how is it even relative?

they intentionally broke the rules to gain a competitive edge. Even this alleged Patriots insider said as much.

Honestly, who gives a shit about this? They got caught for breaking a league rule and lost their first round pick and paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. I just don't understand why so many Giants fans care, considering the Patriots don't even play in our conference. And that Giants beat them in the Superbowl.

Sometimes I think people here just want to be pissed off and indignant.

that'd be one thing. But they were punished, severely, for a misdeed that no one can prove won them anything (they were 3-3 in the games in which this was known to have occurred).

"Based on player involvement and packages sent onto the field we know instantly what the base defense is before we call the offensive signal. Tom then looks at the manner in which the opponent lines up and 75% of the time knows the exact defense being run and after the snap knows what is happening 99% of the time. If a team throws a new wrinkle it is cataloged and legally photgraphed from the Coaches Box and sent automatically down for analysis. Sometimes, think Giants in SB, it takes time to re-tool the offensive scheme for a great defensive game plan. By the end of the Superbowl we had the Giants defense figured out but in a tribute to the Giants DC that defense was a thing of beauty and the most difficult defense to decipher. It is sort of what we did to Rams in 2001 SB. Eventually they figured it out and thankfully for us in 2001 and unfortunately for us in 2007 SB it was too late. That defense will NEVER work against us again."

That deserves its own thread if anyone wants to start it.

They had the Giants D figured out.

That's why Brady got hit in the mouth every play.

No one that was worth a fuck to any organization would be posting anything about what they did or didnt know on ESPN message boards.

Real easy to say when the teams won't play each other for four seasons unless they meet in the Super Bowl. Especially since "it" was the Pats O-Line getting owned.

And this guys is as much of an insider as I am, they have a gag order on them, but they can bitch on the ESPN BB... yeah.

That what they did helped them out all that much, and I do not believe for a second that anything would have been different as far as the outcomes of games. With all that said, my opinion could never be proved, nobody's could be proved, and there is mixed opinions and emotions across the board on this. So with that said, you have to punish them, and make an example out of them to protect the ingegrity of the game. If the commishioner did not react, then people would assume that the league is OK with cheating, and that it is part of the game on some level. That could never be allowed to happen.I am not going to stand in judgement of the commishioner on whether or not his punishment went deep enough, I am not in any position to even remotely judge that, or is any of us, but he did the right thing not to sweep it under the rug, and to punish the Pats. But we all need to move on from this, but the media and the nerds and know nothings that litter that field will never let this die.

This guy is a numbnuts if he thinks it was all due to a certain scheme.

X's & O's mean squat if you can't physically beat the man infront of you.

Strahan & the troops beat their O-line like an 18th century rug. Period.

Does anybody really think Belichick went to his O-line after the game and apologized for his bad gameplan?

That a rookie DT, in the most crucial series of the game, was able to pile drive Brady 3 yards back from where he was trying to throw from

It looked more like 5 yards to me.

that the taping of the signals has little or no value....they can't use it bla blah blah....


THEN WHY DID THEY DO IT IN THE 1ST PLACE????????

Total B.S.

Quote:

The fiasco at the Superbowl is Goodell's fault and it did not cost us the win

Anyone know what he is referring to?

referring to the fact that the undefeated Patriots couldn't beat a wild card team from the weak NFC?

They did it because it's easier to videotape the signals and match them to the plays later rather than having to chart them live (which is legal).

From the Goodell's PC yesterday

Quote:

Impact on games? Again, according to NFL policy, it is permissible to scout people's coaching signals, and as you know, clubs go to great lengths to protect those. They change them frequently and they change them during the game. So I think that teams are sophisticated enough to know that that's a possibility and they go to great lengths to address them. But it's impossible to know the specifics about how much impact it has. I believe that, to me, that there is a permissible way to do this; that they prepare for that.

All teams attempt to steal the other teams signals, which is legal by NFL rules. The only piece that's illegal is videotaping them, and the Pats were punished for that. It's time to put what should have been a minor story to bed.

they broke the rules. But the effectiveness of that rule-breaking and its exceptionalism (how unique is that behavior?) determine whether their punishment was reasonable or insufficient. Based on what I've seen of Spygate it seems to have been appropriate.

There's no proof it did give them an advantage, by why do it if it didn't?
2) People are talking about it because cheating in major sports is big news (see MLB steriods). It doesn't matter that it's a team we rarely play, if one does it it is likely others did.
3) Pretty unlikely this guys actually works for the Pats. The statement doesn't sound right for an insider, more like a fan post.

a fan, not someone in the organization. Only a typically blind dipshit Pats fan thinks that their offense can never be stopped again. If he paid at all attention, the Giants actually borrowed much of their defensive game plan from what the Cleveland Browns and Romeo did earlier in the season, and improved upon because they had better players than the Browns do. So the Pats had already seen these schemes before, and it didn't help them. Add in a grass track that was very fast and favored the Giants defensive line quickness, and Brady's ankle injury which limited his escapability back there and it should be no surprise as to why they teed off on him.

He basically said anyone else but Spags and they would have figured it out and won the game. They basically know everything a team is going to do.


And if you try to come up with a completely new game plan, chances are you'll screw it up before they do.

for posting just about the most reasonable post I have read here in weeks.

BTW, 10#, the so-called Patriots insider said they figured out the Giants defense "based on player involvement and packages sent onto the field" and "manner in which the opponent lines up" and "if a team throws a new wrinkle it is cataloged and legally photgraphed from the Coaches Box and sent automatically down for analysis." All that stuff is not only legal, but what the NFL has been doing for 60 or 70 years. Teams had photographers on the stadium roof that would take Polaroids of alignments and lower them to the field in a bag attached to a rope. No joke. Totally legal and a part of the game from the beginning.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read your post as saying that the Patriots videotaped the Giants signals in the SB and that anyone else but Spags and they would have figured it out and won the game. I don't think anyone has ever said that they videotaped our signals during the SB. Just curious about where you heard that from.

Also, good call by Montana pointing out that if they "figured out" our defense, then why did Alford flatten Brady on the third to last play of the game?

I just come from the thought of where there is smoke there is fire. And there's been a whole lotta smoke coming from the camp since thier 1st SB victory.

I remember a player saying a couple years ago in a interview, " It was like they knew everything we were going to do."

Maybe its do deligence and maybe its taking it overboard stepping into the bounds of cheating. Maybe they've perfected the art of cheating. But anyway you look at it, they lost a draft pick and were fined. So they did something wrong. And doing it after a memo went out to every team....if it didnt help then why risk doing it after you were directly asked not to. Maybe because it can help you win 18 games.