for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Is it a myth that the WR production dropped off after Plax?

Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 10:56 am
Plaxico

10 Games / 9 Starts
35 receptions
454 yards
13 yards per catch avg.
4 TD's

Hixon

16 games / 7 Starts
43 receptions
596 yards
13.9 yards per catch avg.
2 TD's

There are those that say those stats don't matter because after Plax went down, Hixon didn't do anything in our last six games...

Hixon's last six games at #1

@ Washington: 5 catches, 71 yards, 14.2 avg., long of 18
Philly (his worst): 3 catches, 30 yards, 10 avg., long of 17 (one HUGE drop)
@ Dallas: 6 catches, 60 yards, 10 avg., long of 19
Carolina: 4 catches, 71 yards, 17.8 avg., long of 40
@ Minny: 4 catches, 62 yards, 15.5 avg. 23 yard (TD)
Philly: 2 catches, 37 yards, 18.5 avg., long of 32

Plaxico's last six games as a Giant (I'll make it 7, because Plaxico didn't start against Pitt)

Cincy: 3 catches, 45 yards, 15 avg., long of 28
@ Cleveland: 4 catches, 58 yards, 14.5 avg., long of 25, TD
San Fran: 3 catches, 24 yards, 8 avg., long of 14, TD
@ Pitt (did not start): 3 catches, 15 yards, 5 avg., long of 8
Dallas: 3 catches, 34 yards, 11.3 avg., long of 22
@ Philly: 1 catch, 17 yards, TD
Baltimore: 3 catches, 43 yards, 15.7 average, long of 21

I also threw out his last game vs. Arizona because he really didn't play at all, even though he started. He may have played one series.

Okay, so now, the averages.

Hixon's per game average over the last six games

4 catches per game
55 yards per game
.16 TD's per game

Plaxico's per game average over his last 7 games

2.85 catches per game (less than Hixon)
33.71 yards per game (significantly less than Hixon)
.428 TD's per game

Keep in mind, that both Hixon and Plaxico had monster games, Plaxico vs. the Skins, and Hixon vs. the Seahawks that are not included, so you get a better look at the overall view. Believe it or not, Plaxico was becoming somewhat non-existant well before he shot himself.

There seems to be a strong opinion here, some would say fact, that the team dropped off BECAUSE of the loss of Plaxico. I think these stats dispute that. There is also a strong opinion that Plaxico being double covered was what opened things up for the rest of the offense. That may be true, but it should be noted that Eli threw for the most yards (301) against Washington w/out Plaxico, and we ran for the most yards of the season (over 300) against Carolina.

I think the main thing that sticks out here are the TD's. Hixon is really good between the 20's, and moves the chains. However, where Eli really missed Plaxico was in the redzone. I think this supports the argument that we don't really need a "stretch the field" reciever as much as we need a "big redzone target". I think a trade for Tony Gonzalez would create the exact same double coverage and mismatches that we got with Plaxico Burress down inside the 20.

Overall, I think Hixon gets a lot of the blame for our late season collapse, with some of you going as far to say that our recievers are number 3's or 2's at BEST, and that they've already hit their ceiling. I would argue that Hixon can in fact be this team's number one, and could quite possibly be a very good one. Having a 6'5 WR is not the only way to get mismatches and double teams.

Therefore, I'm going to go with myth. Big, overblown myth.

Flame on.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
Another shot of Pinkstons skinny arms  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 11:33 am : link
Burris shot himself on November 28th.  
SanFranGiantsFan : 4/22/2009 11:34 am : link
The Giants had a month and a half to tinker with the offense.
A month and a half is nothing....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:35 am : link
.
You're amazing Terps  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 11:35 am : link
you consistently pooh-pooh quotes from players, coaches and GMs when it doesn't fit your agenda, but this one quote, is ok in your book and "says a lot." Good Lord
And now Hixon is equal to, or less than Pinkston?  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:35 am : link
Only on BBI.
So...are people afraid to point the finger at Gilbride  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 11:35 am : link
for not changing the scheme over the last 6 weeks because of the backlash they might receive? =)
Britt,  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 11:36 am : link
that is RW's comparison... not mine. =)
Britt  
SanFranGiantsFan : 4/22/2009 11:36 am : link
It's nothing? Come on. I know its not an ideal amount of time, but consider we had two weeks off after the Minnesota game.
SFGF  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 11:36 am : link
I'm no coach, but I'd imagine that it's one thing to tinker and quite another to alter and implement an entire scheme.

I just want to see us exercise some patience and perspective. I want to see what our talented WRs can do given an entire offseason of reps and coaching out of Plax and Toomer's shadow. I think we'd be pleasantly surprised, I really do.
A lot of people on BBI are not willing to admit...  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:37 am : link
that Plax was NOT the sole reason we tanked last year. It's easy to make him/it (the situation at WR) out to be the big, bad, boogieman... but the stats simply do not support it.
I recently re-watched  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 11:38 am : link
the last 5 games and I must say, there is a lot of revisionism going on, imo..I implore those of you who possibly have the time to re-watch, most of the last 5 games(you can skip the meaningless Minny game)and see once again, what transpired...
Terps nailed it....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:38 am : link
it's one thing to gameplan week to week with your exact opponent in front of you.

It's quite another to implement an entire scheme that's going to last you over a season. I mean, you have mini camps, OTA's, and an entire training camp to do that.
no no no  
Dr.Bud : 4/22/2009 11:39 am : link
its not so much the WR production its the fact that the whole offensive production dropped.

Plax's numbers weren't that great by any means but what he brought to the offense was on and off the stat sheet. Thats why we need that #1 WR
What's the revisionism?  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:39 am : link
The numbers are right there. It's not what you make of them, it's what actually happened.
Britt..it may have not been the SOLE reason  
DCPollaro : 4/22/2009 11:39 am : link
but was definitely the BIGGEST reason
Britt  
SanFranGiantsFan : 4/22/2009 11:39 am : link
I don't think that at all. I do think Plax's idiotic episode hurt the team, but also the wear and tear on the DL was killer too. That's why I've loved what Reese has done this offseason in bringing in Canty and Bernard. Add a healthy Osi and it'll be fun to watch.
BB56  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 11:39 am : link
I ignore quotes from players on personnel issues (Edwards, Plax) because I expect every Giant from Mara on down to present a unified front. But that quote from Jacobs is, IMO, a moment of honesty that has nothing to do with potential personnel moves and provides insight into the complexity of offensive scheme and philosophy.
I think the D-line is the biggest reason for the fall off last year...  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:40 am : link
just as it was for our Superbowl run the year before.
Britt, no one in their right mind has said  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 11:40 am : link
Plax was the "sole" reason we tanked at the end...What we are saying, is that without Plax(and affirmed by one of the best DCs ever)we were not SB-caliber for reasons cited ad nauseum, ad infinitum...
I think the circus  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 11:40 am : link
Plax created hurt the team a lot more than his actual absence did.
I disagree, we were, and STILL ARE, Superbowl calibur w/out Plax....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:42 am : link
we beat BOTH Pittsburgh (basically) and Arizone without him, both the AFC and NFC Champions.
Terps, I call a robust BS on that  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 11:42 am : link
there are a bunch of quotes that had "moments of honesty" to them but you casted them off as Player, coach or GM-speak...You're being disingenous, imo
In their stadiums  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 11:42 am : link
.
Had we somehow pulled out the Eagles game...  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:42 am : link
we would have crushed Arizona in NY and been SB bound.
we're contenders for the SB regardless of the WRs  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 11:42 am : link
team game
Here you go  
RoadWarriorz : 4/22/2009 11:43 am : link


Look at Hixon's shoulders, he must have the smallest shoulder's I've ever seen on a football player. His frame is very small, where does he have more room in his frame to gain weight without losing speed.




Only reason Hixon looks bigger is cause he's shorter than Pinkston. They both weighed the same weight, but Hixon is 6'2, Pinkston 6'3. Pinkston had more mass on his body for his weight to fill up

Davisian  
dorgan : 4/22/2009 11:43 am : link
yes, well done.

This has been a very good football thread including posts from both sides.

As usual, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

We certainly missed Plaxico. He's a physical freak and scares the hell out of DCs.
We spent two years developing tendencies that were ripe to be changed and those changes would have exploited defenses.

Suddenly, we were left with a different identity, with inadequate time to develop a new identity, a new set of tendencies and consequently we struggled.

Take away a team's security blanket and they all struggle.

But, the big question is whether we can win long term without him or another physical freak at WR.

My opinion is yes and I believe that most of BBI is going to be bitterly disappointed by Saturday night.

For the record, I have no insight as to what the staff is thinking, but I have a strong hunch there will be a change to the offense even if we trade for Edwards.
Our identity is going to change from less individual matchups on the passing side, to more of a "create space" scheme.

If that's the direction we indeed take, I'll write a post clarifying the difference between the two philosophies.

Britt  
kickerpa16 : 4/22/2009 11:43 am : link
what does beating the AFC and NFC champs weeks earlier have to do with that? That is a meaningless argument, as we saw in 2007, when the Giants were one team before Week 16, and a completely different one after.
Jim Johnson  
MookGiants : 4/22/2009 11:43 am : link
and Dawkins kept saying how much easier the Giants were to defend without Plaxico. It wasn't just the fans who thought Plax was the biggest reason for our collapse last year
BB '56  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 11:44 am : link
I never believed a single word coming from any player with regards to Edwards or Plax...I think they were coached what to say.

I don't see this quote from Jacobs as being the same thing. I could be wrong, but I don't see why the front office would tell him to say that they didn't have enough time to alter their offense.
No, it's not meaningless....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:44 am : link
because we did it WITHOUT Plaxico. That's what I was responding to.
Mook...your wrong  
DCPollaro : 4/22/2009 11:45 am : link
The Giants PR and front office staff told Dawkins and JJ to say that
dorgan  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 11:45 am : link
From your lips to God's ears...
dorgan  
MookGiants : 4/22/2009 11:45 am : link
changing of schemes? Oh no, even more threads about the scheme from JerseyJoe will follow now
Britt  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 11:45 am : link
How many times do we have to go over some of the reasons we beat Pitts(no Holmes for starters, Long snapper and Punter disabled and out))and AZ(two huge Hixon returns sealed that deal)...
DC and Mook  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:46 am : link
isn't that stating the obvious? I mean, seriously? Of course we're easier to defend without him.
Dorgan  
Davisian : 4/22/2009 11:47 am : link
lots of crossing routes and shit? More to the TE's and RB's (if they can catch it)?

That direction would be welcomed by me, regardless of what happens this weekend.

It's one thing for opposing  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 11:47 am : link
coaches and players to comment on Plax's importance...it's quite another to suggest that the best team in the NFL all of a sudden became impotent almost solely because of his loss.

dorgan  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 11:47 am : link
any elaboration on creating space scheme? I have an idea just looking for a bit of a clarification


and one thing  
MookGiants : 4/22/2009 11:48 am : link
those stats don't show is the fact that Plaxico opened up things for everyone else on the team. He opened up more spaces for the running game, opened up the field for the other receivers. That can not be measured in simply catch and yard stats
Terps, exactly...  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:48 am : link
people here are acting like unless we have a Plax clone, we'll never be good again.

We can change our team to suit the strengths of what we have, and when that's in place, that will be harder to defend.
for clarification, I was thinking along the lines of what dav suggests  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 11:48 am : link
.
Mook, if you read my whole post...  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:49 am : link
I addressed that.
dorgan, well stated, but this  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 11:50 am : link
Quote:
For the record, I have no insight as to what the staff is thinking, but I have a strong hunch there will be a change to the offense even if we trade for Edwards.
Our identity is going to change from less individual matchups on the passing side, to more of a "create space" scheme.


What in Coughlin's 13 year Pro resume(with the exception of the expansion year)leads you to believe that he will depart from his #1 WR oriented Offense that opened up everything for his O's through the years?

I just don't see him changing all that much...Tweaking? Sure, but his O has been dependant on a #1 forever...Why is he suddenly going to change? There's no attitude or tone to my written words here, just an honest question that I have yet to receive a reasonable answer to IIRC..
RoadWarriorz,  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 11:50 am : link
Pinkston is only 1 inch taller than Hixon (and thats an "official" height, so who knows). They are probably the same height.

You can tell the difference in their build clear as day, if you look at their arms. Hixons arms are twice the size of Pinkstons. They are not built the same.
I'm not saying  
MookGiants : 4/22/2009 11:50 am : link
it was solely because of his loss, it was a combination of many things, mostly our d-line and receiver.

And of course it was easier. But they (Eagles coaches and players) weren't just stating the obvious, they were scared to death of Plax and for years couldn't find a way to stop him, and they basically were saying our offense wasn't very difficult to stop without him, not that it was just a little "easier". They put that extra man in the box and dominated the LOS
GT  
AnishPatel : 4/22/2009 11:52 am : link

We didn't throw the ball into the endzone alot from what I remember. Everything was like parallel or short of the endzone with the intention of our guy supposed to break tackles and score that way. One play I remember was in the Pittsburgh game where we were in the redzone and throw to plax 1 or 2 yards from the LOS, and expected him to break tackles to score, but we were forced to kick a FG. When we did score, we finally threw to Boss into the endzone, where he was wide open. I def. want to see more of that, and even sprint or rollout, like Eli did in the first game. No one was open so he dove in.

But I expect us to use that draw play, which is designed very well, and worked wonders. I think we can get better production with Bradshaw with the skill set he has over Ward. So I am interested to see that this season.
But that was one teams problem....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:52 am : link
other teams had a lot of trouble against us without Plaxico.

So, the Eagles got us. It just wasn't our year. But they are one team, not the entire NFL.

Ask Washington if we were easier to defend w/out Plaxico when Eli put up three hundy on em'.
Davisian  
dorgan : 4/22/2009 11:54 am : link
we had physical mismatch at the X position versus damn near ever CB in the league. That was a huge part of our identity.

We exploited it and rightfully so. However, after reviewing the season, I think we became to damned reliant on that mismatch. I believe the staff will come to the same conclusion.

Remember Coughlin's offensive tenet...balance. We became unbalanced and he's going to change something regardless who lines up at X.
We can not allow ourselves to become so reliant on one player, unless that player is a QB. It's unavoidable in that situation.


This is all opinion. I've received no tidbits this year to back anything up.
One. More. Time....  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 11:55 am : link


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner