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Is it a myth that the WR production dropped off after Plax?

Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 10:56 am
Plaxico

10 Games / 9 Starts
35 receptions
454 yards
13 yards per catch avg.
4 TD's

Hixon

16 games / 7 Starts
43 receptions
596 yards
13.9 yards per catch avg.
2 TD's

There are those that say those stats don't matter because after Plax went down, Hixon didn't do anything in our last six games...

Hixon's last six games at #1

@ Washington: 5 catches, 71 yards, 14.2 avg., long of 18
Philly (his worst): 3 catches, 30 yards, 10 avg., long of 17 (one HUGE drop)
@ Dallas: 6 catches, 60 yards, 10 avg., long of 19
Carolina: 4 catches, 71 yards, 17.8 avg., long of 40
@ Minny: 4 catches, 62 yards, 15.5 avg. 23 yard (TD)
Philly: 2 catches, 37 yards, 18.5 avg., long of 32

Plaxico's last six games as a Giant (I'll make it 7, because Plaxico didn't start against Pitt)

Cincy: 3 catches, 45 yards, 15 avg., long of 28
@ Cleveland: 4 catches, 58 yards, 14.5 avg., long of 25, TD
San Fran: 3 catches, 24 yards, 8 avg., long of 14, TD
@ Pitt (did not start): 3 catches, 15 yards, 5 avg., long of 8
Dallas: 3 catches, 34 yards, 11.3 avg., long of 22
@ Philly: 1 catch, 17 yards, TD
Baltimore: 3 catches, 43 yards, 15.7 average, long of 21

I also threw out his last game vs. Arizona because he really didn't play at all, even though he started. He may have played one series.

Okay, so now, the averages.

Hixon's per game average over the last six games

4 catches per game
55 yards per game
.16 TD's per game

Plaxico's per game average over his last 7 games

2.85 catches per game (less than Hixon)
33.71 yards per game (significantly less than Hixon)
.428 TD's per game

Keep in mind, that both Hixon and Plaxico had monster games, Plaxico vs. the Skins, and Hixon vs. the Seahawks that are not included, so you get a better look at the overall view. Believe it or not, Plaxico was becoming somewhat non-existant well before he shot himself.

There seems to be a strong opinion here, some would say fact, that the team dropped off BECAUSE of the loss of Plaxico. I think these stats dispute that. There is also a strong opinion that Plaxico being double covered was what opened things up for the rest of the offense. That may be true, but it should be noted that Eli threw for the most yards (301) against Washington w/out Plaxico, and we ran for the most yards of the season (over 300) against Carolina.

I think the main thing that sticks out here are the TD's. Hixon is really good between the 20's, and moves the chains. However, where Eli really missed Plaxico was in the redzone. I think this supports the argument that we don't really need a "stretch the field" reciever as much as we need a "big redzone target". I think a trade for Tony Gonzalez would create the exact same double coverage and mismatches that we got with Plaxico Burress down inside the 20.

Overall, I think Hixon gets a lot of the blame for our late season collapse, with some of you going as far to say that our recievers are number 3's or 2's at BEST, and that they've already hit their ceiling. I would argue that Hixon can in fact be this team's number one, and could quite possibly be a very good one. Having a 6'5 WR is not the only way to get mismatches and double teams.

Therefore, I'm going to go with myth. Big, overblown myth.

Flame on.
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Curtis  
RoadWarriorz : 4/22/2009 11:56 am : link
We'll agree to disagree
;]
Okay, enough with the Hixon/Pinkston comparison....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 11:56 am : link
it's not what this thread is about.

Please?
To paraphrase Carr from his interview  
Glen in SoCal : 4/22/2009 11:57 am : link
earlier today, it behooves a receiver to run his routes according to what the QB is seeing. That's how they learn.
dorgan  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 11:58 am : link
in case you missed it, please comment on my 11:50
I'm not sure that would be in your best interest  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:00 pm : link
.
LTS  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 12:01 pm : link
What's with the obnoxious shit of late towards me?
BB'56...  
Dan in the Springs : 4/22/2009 12:02 pm : link
I believe Dorgan gave his reason for thinking that way in his 11:54.
Come on, Britt, no one is claiming that losing Plax  
Section331 : 4/22/2009 12:04 pm : link
is the ONLY reason the Giants faltered. The D-Line was gassed at the end of the year, and the pass ruch suffered. But losing Plax, in my view, was a huge part of the decline. Part of the reason the D-Line was so spent was the fact that they couldn't get off the field.
Section...  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 12:05 pm : link
if you say that nobody has said that, I fail to believe you've been reading BBI at all over the past 3 months.
Dan, actually not  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 12:05 pm : link
it was a good post per usual and yes TC preaches "balance" each and every year...But at the end of the day, he hasn't altered his philosphy all that much in 13 years...Just curious, in light of the same TC statements every year(yet his Philosophy re #1 hasn't really changed), why the Coach believes this year 14, will be different
that one wasn't meant to be obnoxious  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:06 pm : link
it's a strange question that I think focuses way too much on small part of the equation (TC's philosophy).

Has it had a number 1 all these years? I guess so. I just don't see how that somehow suggest he wouldn't be satisfied adjusting the O with the guys he has.

I'd been obnoxious in the other debates because of the pessimistic view. It's reaching. No chance at a SB without '#1'. Why would Reese intentionally leave the team in a condition that would have them not contending? If he doesn't blink on BE he obviously feels he could win as is
Section  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 12:07 pm : link
Many have said that with Plax we beat Philly. That's essentially saying we didn't at least go to the Super Bowl solely because of Plax's absence.
when has TC ever come out and said my philosophy says  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:08 pm : link
I need a #1?

All I see is that it just so happens that he's been lucky enough to have one.

And Smith developed into one, he was not one right away. Plax I'd argue also developed into one
Coughlin preaches OL strength, run the ball, balance  
JonC : 4/22/2009 12:09 pm : link
but I think the current passing game is significantly different then it was when he ran Jax. They were much more vertical and downfield, not quite as strong running the ball, he worked with and modified according to personnel strength, as he has here.
By the way,  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 12:10 pm : link
if we were all Pittsburgh fans would these same people still be crying out for a clear cut #1 WR even though they don't have one?
sg0508 said that without Braylon Edwards or similar  
CL : 4/22/2009 12:11 pm : link
the Giants will go 8-8 at best.
GT  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:11 pm : link
I still consider Hines a number one, otherwise I'd agree. Hines has produced way too much through the years for me to not give him that due
Pittsburgh has Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes...  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 12:12 pm : link
which is more than we have.
They also have a QB that can buy time by running around...  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 12:13 pm : link
also something we dont have.
Who's to say that Hixon, Smith, Manningham et all....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 12:13 pm : link
can't ever be a combo like that?
Britt,  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 12:13 pm : link
I never said they couldnt be. But they aren't right now.
Myth busted, truths remain.  
rtc : 4/22/2009 12:14 pm : link

The Giants running game:
with Plax: 7 games with 150+ yards including 5 with 200+.
without Plax: 1 game with 150+ yards against Carolina.

So sure the WR's are facing one less defender and may be putting up similar stats, but that extra defender is now impacting the running game.

All you need to do is to watch the Eagles games to see the difference. In the Plax-less games, Quentin Mikell is taking out the lead blocker at the LOS or in the backfield all game.
I love Ward,  
Go Terps : 4/22/2009 12:14 pm : link
but he's not the stereotypical WR mismatch that some think we need. He's a good routerunner that plays smart and tough.

I don't see why any of our present guys shouldn't be given a chance to develop into something similar considering they have potentially elite physical abilities.
a few things  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 12:14 pm : link
Quote:
Has it had a number 1 all these years? I guess so. I just don't see how that somehow suggest he wouldn't be satisfied adjusting the O with the guys he has.


Because, TC has always been "#1 oriented." If he changes that, I'd be surprised. That's all I'm saying

Quote:
I'd been obnoxious in the other debates because of the pessimistic view. It's reaching. No chance at a SB without '#1'.


I believe that's one of the few pessimistic views I've offered on here since Fassel left, except for my negative opinions on Accorsi...I've been accused of drinking the Kool-Aid by a bunch on here...GMANinDC calls me the "pom-pom" guy for my unconditional support of TC and Reese...I really don't believe we will strongly contend for the SB without a true #1...Of course(and hope) I could be wrong...Regardless, it doesn't merit the attitude towards me imo

Besides,  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 12:14 pm : link
when you have a QB like Ben Roethlisberger(sp), the need for a true #1 wideout is diminished.
Yes and no...  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 12:16 pm : link
Quote:
Myth busted, truths remain.
rtc : 12:14 pm

The Giants running game:
with Plax: 7 games with 150+ yards including 5 with 200+.
without Plax: 1 game with 150+ yards against Carolina.

So sure the WR's are facing one less defender and may be putting up similar stats, but that extra defender is now impacting the running game.

All you need to do is to watch the Eagles games to see the difference. In the Plax-less games, Quentin Mikell is taking out the lead blocker at the LOS or in the backfield all game.


In that scheme, asking Hixon to BE Plaxico, yes.

In a new scheme favoring Hixon's strengths, possibly not.
not trying to mean spirited, apologies if you took it that way  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:16 pm : link
as I've said lately, I've been a bit sick of the desperate for a WR attitude present on the board in general and have been responding in kind
Terps, oh please  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 12:17 pm : link
Pittsburgh has Ward and Holmes who are significantly better than what we have at present...They may or may not be #1s, but in that particular case, they might as well be considered that based on their superb, clutch production
Fiddy  
dorgan : 4/22/2009 12:17 pm : link
the changes will (and have been) subtle enough that 95% of those watching the games will not notice, but they're still changes.

We were very dependent on the size advantage that Plaxico enjoyed.
So much so, that when he wasn't there, we were not prepared to deal with his absence in such a short time frame.
I've watched Tom coach since he was at RIT, so I'm pretty well aware of how willing and able he is to making adjustments to his system.

I know he hates being unprepared for any situation more than anything, and will address this flaw in one way or another, so that if we lose an X, we can still be competitive through a more balanced approach.

I'll go into it further at another time, but I'm going to lunch and as much as I like talking football, I like to eat once in a while too!

curtis  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:17 pm : link
funny point because I'd say it's true, and I'd say the same goes for Eli.

I take all this desperation for a new guy as a slight to manning. (while acknowledging what even he said in the press)
Hixon  
geemanfan : 4/22/2009 12:18 pm : link
Is not a #1 WR and it's as easy as that.
Terps, I have to agree with them,  
Section331 : 4/22/2009 12:18 pm : link
with Plax, I think the Giants beat Philly. The game was close enough that Plax could have made the difference, especially down by the goal line.

That still doesn't mean that being without Plax was the only problem with the team down the stretch.
LTS, understood  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 12:19 pm : link
no biggie, just a little surprising that's all...Oh, I forgot, I was totally against Eli before the playoff run...Now that was pessimistic..:o)
Ummmm....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 12:19 pm : link
Quote:
Hixon
geemanfan : 12:18 pm
Is not a #1 WR and it's as easy as that.


Based on what. That was his second year.
If Big Ben doesn't have the ability to buy extra time,  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 12:19 pm : link
Pittsburgh loses the Super Bowl. Plain and simple.
dorgan  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 12:19 pm : link
Thanks
Without reading 130 replies...  
BigBlueBrethren : 4/22/2009 12:20 pm : link
Plaxico being on the field made our entire offense better. Less guys than the box, double coverage on Plax (you think Hixon EVER gets doubled???), bailout throws for Eli, and the running game was helped.

Stats are for dorks, watch the fucking games.

Go Terps- You are persistent, but dead wrong.
fiddy if it makes you feel any better  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:20 pm : link
it hasn't just been you that I've acted in this manner. I've been trying to shoot down a lot of stupid from others to no avail.
Curtis  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:20 pm : link
Same for Eli!!! (Grin)
Murderer!!!  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 12:21 pm : link
.
I watched the "f-cking games"  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 12:21 pm : link
and if you read my first post, I address the double coverage aspect.
LTS,  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 12:21 pm : link
except that Plax was on the field! ;-)
hahaha curtis  
GMenLTS : 4/22/2009 12:22 pm : link
but WTF was Tyree doing there?!?!?!?!?
Taking advantage of the single coverage! =)  
Curtis in MD : 4/22/2009 12:22 pm : link
.
I do think the clamor for a "#1" WR is overblown.  
Section331 : 4/22/2009 12:22 pm : link
What is a "#1" anyway? Is DeSean Jackson a #1? Hines Ward? Either way, the fact is that the talent at WR did not force defenses to scheme against them. I'm sorry, but if you're playing Pitt, you better be prepared to deal with Holmes and Ward, whether they're technically #1's or not.

I don't think anyone looks at our WR's and says the same thing. Maybe Hixon will develop into that guy, but I'm not convinced. We need more talent at the position.
Oh and dorgan  
Big Blue '56 : 4/22/2009 12:23 pm : link
that does make sense and I hope you're correct on this...Looking forward to you digesting your lunch, farting and belching and coming back and explaining your thoughts in more detail
Reese also said Eli is a veteran now  
Glen in SoCal : 4/22/2009 12:23 pm : link
More will be put on his shoulders. I think no matter what changes are made to the scheme, between the coaches, receivers and QB we will see a much tighter close knit offense this year just because everyone involved recognizes it's time for them to step up. JMO
If you took the time to write all that nonsense...  
BigBlueBrethren : 4/22/2009 12:24 pm : link
then you didn't watch the games closely enough.

Our WR's don't get separation, don't make big plays, and as a result our offense is significantly easier to slow down by stuffing everyone in the box to stop the run game. The Eagles game was this in a nutshell. Sure we'll still beat up on the weak teams with a great OL and run game, plus the WR's will do solid against bad secondaries...but when facing playoff-caliber Defenses...we need a #1 WR and there is not a doubt in my mind about that.
Section331...  
BigBlueBrethren : 4/22/2009 12:25 pm : link
Everyone here LOVES to point at Pittsburgh as an example of not needing a top 10 WR to win, they have 2 starters who are both VERY good and much better than average. Give me that and I'll stop campaigning for Braylon.
If you think this....  
Britt in VA : 4/22/2009 12:25 pm : link
Quote:
Our WR's don't get separation, don't make big plays...


Then I think it is YOU who was not watching.

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