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Collingsworth's point on Eli's "Omaha," is it valid?

Big Blue '56 : 10/26/2009 10:18 am
This may have been discussed on some of the rant threads, but I really don't care to venture into them..

His point about Eli's next snap call always following "Omaha" gives an advantage to the D in terms of getting a nice jump, I'm not sure is correct..If it is, then why wouldn't we see this and change things up?

Doesn't make sense that the Giants would not be aware of this if true..

What were your impressions when hearing this(ad nauseum, btw)?
Who is  
Emlen'sGremlins : 10/26/2009 10:19 am : link
Collingsworth?
does Eli say Omaha?  
I Love Clams Casino : 10/26/2009 10:20 am : link
it may be...point is....Giants don't care.....all the other team has to do is look at the play clock.....right Curtis?
I always put that friggin' "g" in  
Big Blue '56 : 10/26/2009 10:20 am : link
.
It might be valid...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/26/2009 10:20 am : link
but it is also the reason Eli says Omaha several times. You can try to time it, but if you rush forward after hearing Omaha thinking the next thing will be the snap count and it is another Omaha, you aren't going to get any advantage.
If that was the case  
Giants in 07 : 10/26/2009 10:20 am : link
We wouldn't be drawing defenses offsides every game.
Too simplistic, in my view.  
Section331 : 10/26/2009 10:21 am : link
First of all, Eli says "Omaha" multiple times in most snap counts, which one is the live snap? And many other teams use Omaha as well. I know Dallas does.

Anish has pointed out that he hinks Omaha calls off shifts in formation when the play clock runs down. That explanation makes the most sense to me.
I think Omaha is overrated  
Kulish29 : 10/26/2009 10:22 am : link
Lincoln is the FAR better city in Nebraska.
There is no way NFL teams haven't known this for years.  
Riggies : 10/26/2009 10:23 am : link
It wouldn't hurt to change it up on occasion, but we'd have seen the Giants change it by now or it having a major adverse effect before now if it was that big of an issue.
I said in the other thread  
AnishPatel : 10/26/2009 10:23 am : link
I am not sure that was right. I always guessed it was something to do with WRs and not motioning due to play clock going down. Hufangel brought that with him from NE, and unless they changed it, I would guess that. However, they could have changed it. But this was never an issue in past years, so I personally don't think it's a big deal. Plus Eli can give dummy calls too. So no one but the offensive staff and players would know that. So a lot of stuff could be going on, and like I said before unless Chris C. got this info in a production meeting or sit down with the staff and players, or got access to the playbook, I would still be skeptical of what he said. He very well could be right, but still, without all the other info, I would just call it a guess on his part.
I don't think the Giants care as much.  
Curtis in MD : 10/26/2009 10:23 am : link
He doesn't call "Omaha" on every play but when he does, I think they're more concerned about making the correct adjustments and getting the ball off without any false starts. Then letting their very good offensive line block their guys.

I don't know diddly-squat though.
Well Collinsworth  
Big Blue '56 : 10/26/2009 10:24 am : link
beat that point to death, but I too heard multiple "Omahas" from Eli at different times, so I'm not sure why a good analyst would be beating the point to death
But even if he is right...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/26/2009 10:25 am : link
the defender has to anticipate what will be Omaha and what will be the snap call, and at least to my ears, that is a split-second difference that doesn't appear to give anymore advantage to the defense than a guy just guessing at when the snap will come.
Ya know who else says Omaha?  
I Love Clams Casino : 10/26/2009 10:26 am : link
Romo, and he's top 5, so I don't wanna hear it
Giants in 07,  
Curtis in MD : 10/26/2009 10:26 am : link
I could be wrong but when the defense was drawn offside, I don't believe "Omaha" was said. Either that or there was a plan in place to use it to draw the defense off.
I noticed  
AnishPatel : 10/26/2009 10:28 am : link
a bunch of other Qbs say it. I am guessing it's nothing too earth shattering. If it was I am sure we would change the word, or pick something else to make it live for the week. Usually teams do this with audibles, by changing colors, so teams dont key in.
I did see on one occasion,  
Curtis in MD : 10/26/2009 10:28 am : link
"Omaha" was called and three defenders started to blitz right before Eli hiked the ball.
FMiC  
Big Blue '56 : 10/26/2009 10:30 am : link
That was exactly my thought processes at the time, yet I do respect CC a great deal and simply felt I was missing something
I always thought Omaha  
Randy in CT : 10/26/2009 10:31 am : link
was the call that notifies that his last call was the one they were going with--not when he was going to get the ball hiked to him.
I don't think its a matter of trying to anticipate what will be Omaha  
Curtis in MD : 10/26/2009 10:33 am : link
and what will be the snap call, as much as its a matter of hearing "Omaha" and then knowing the ball will be snapped immediately afterwards.
Dallas game  
mdc1 : 10/26/2009 10:34 am : link
was another example, with snap pre-anticipation.
Randee  
Big Blue '56 : 10/26/2009 10:35 am : link
Yeah, me too
Curtis,  
AnishPatel : 10/26/2009 10:36 am : link
In the past Eli used to say Omaha as the play clock was expiring. So there is coorelation of the two it would seem.
THe other thing I didn't quite grasp....  
Giantfan in skinland : 10/26/2009 10:38 am : link
is that what he said was that Omaha indicated a live snap count. That doesn't tell the D what the snap count is though....so I'm not sure how they would have been able to just tee off as he was implying.

It does help them know when to get into position vs. when they have time to bluff.....but I don't think that was his point or what people have taken it to be.
Like I said on the other thread which went missing...  
shepherdsam : 10/26/2009 10:38 am : link
if Collinsworth is right, it still doesn't mean the snap count is being given away.
It means Omaha = "I'm done with the call you knuckleheads, listen up, I'm going to call for the ball next"

The snap count itself will still vary and will be given in the huddle.
Arizona guess the omaha every time.  
jarrodbunch : 10/26/2009 10:45 am : link
.
people aren't realizing the significance  
MindlessBanter : 10/26/2009 10:48 am : link
it is completely valid. and it doesn't only tell teams when we're going to snap it, it also tells teams when we're done doing our pre-snap reads and the play is in stone.

i'm sure people have noticed defenses showing one alignment and then switching out of if before we snap the ball? well what if they show us an alignment, then wait for "Omaha" to go to their real alignment. It's too late for us to change our play at that point.

And yes the snap count thing is valid as well. Both the Saints and Arizona have been getting off the snap faster than our offensive lineman even, and that isn't the case unless they know the count.

Finally, I keep seeing people saying something along the lines of it not being an issue because he says it multiple times. I disagree. The only time he says it multiple times is when he strings it together, like:

"omaha......omaha....set hut"
shep  
Davisian : 10/26/2009 10:48 am : link
I went looking for that to quote you, where did that thread go?

I have no idea,  
shepherdsam : 10/26/2009 10:50 am : link
I missed whatever sent it downhill.
I thought it was on Dave's thread..  
Davisian : 10/26/2009 10:51 am : link
Dave's there, but shep's not there man..

omaha  
GiantsLaw : 10/26/2009 10:54 am : link
What significance??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/26/2009 10:55 am : link
Quote:
people aren't realizing the significance
MindlessBanter : 10:48 am
it is completely valid. and it doesn't only tell teams when we're going to snap it, it also tells teams when we're done doing our pre-snap reads and the play is in stone.


Having the play "set in stone" gives nothing away to the defense and it is no different than just going up to the LOS and running the play from the huddle.

And it doesn't tell the defense when we snap it. If eli goes "Omaha - hut" on one play, chances are the next he goes "Omaha - Omaha - hut" on the next. The ball is being snapped on the hut, and that is not easy to time if you are a defender.
I don't think it's valid,  
barens : 10/26/2009 10:56 am : link
because besides last night, I can't remember the last time the Giants had a false start.
This  
AnishPatel : 10/26/2009 10:58 am : link
is really nothing new, we been using Omaha call from day 1. I am sure if it comes an issue we change it. Problem solved. It's not a big deal in the scheme of things. I am more worried about a 3rd and 2, 50 yard pass attempt instead of a terminology issue, which can be changed in practice if need be.
Why do I have a felling that Collinsworth's comments about 'Omaha'  
Kulish29 : 10/26/2009 11:00 am : link
are going to grow legs and walk far more distance than they should like Sirigussa's dumb Jacobs comment?
Anish  
Big Blue '56 : 10/26/2009 11:02 am : link
so you think the reasons stated by Collinsworth as to WHY we were "smart" to pass a lot downfield, were incorrect?
Re: Siragusa's comment.  
Curtis in MD : 10/26/2009 11:02 am : link
Jacobs missed a TD opportunity last night in the 4th quarter when he decided to change direction and go to the right on 3rd and short instead of just plowing ahead into the endzone. Result was a 4th and 2 and FG.

just sayin. =)
No,  
AnishPatel : 10/26/2009 11:05 am : link
He had valid points, but 3rd and 2 you want to go deep like that, I don't really agree with that. We have so many options of plays we can run. In fact, the past games have indicated the various options we have, and throwing a deep pass like that, is something I wasn't a fan of.
....  
Giant Mike : 10/26/2009 11:05 am : link
1. I would guess we lead the league or are at least in the top 3 for drawing defenses offside.

2. Eli has been sacked a whopping 6 times.

I don't think it's an issue. So somtimes a guy gets lucky or has a good night... I think the benefits far outweight the negatives.
Curtis  
Kulish29 : 10/26/2009 11:06 am : link
uh, shutty?
GM  
Big Blue '56 : 10/26/2009 12:42 pm : link
Agree..And yes, I'd have to think we are up there amongst the leaders in drawing teams offsides..Right up there with Peyton probably
i think throwing deep on 3rd and 2  
MindlessBanter : 10/26/2009 12:45 pm : link
is a luxury not for teams who are down by 10 late in the game. ahead...sure. even down 3 with lots of time left, sure. down 10...no way
From what I understand  
Maffucci : 10/26/2009 1:01 pm : link
Omaha does not indicate the snap count. It only indicates that the next snap count is live. For example, the snap count could be on two and Eli may come to the line and say, "hut-hut" but the rest of the offense will ignore it the signal. The word "Omaha" followed by the "hut-hut" is when the ball is snapped. Omaha give no indication what the snap count is. The most it does is give an indication as to when the defense should start paying attention to Eli's signals.
I'd be interested to see how many times the play clock  
dbrny : 10/26/2009 1:15 pm : link
was down to 1 sec when the ball was snapped. I'm guessing this is easier to key off than "Omaha". Having both, of course, is far better.

Being predictable on the snap count isn't necessarily a bad thing. He has been successful drawing the defenses offsides.
I don't think jumping the snap count  
Giantfan in skinland : 10/26/2009 1:55 pm : link
is really the issue. I thought CC was just off on that. I do think he may be correct that it keys when the snap count is live.

As I said above, when you know that info, it doesn't let you jump the count....what it does is allow your guys to be jumping all over the place with a reasonable sense of when the ball is gonna be snapped. When you have a guy like Wilson or Antrelle Rolle, who have the speed to be in one place pre-snap and bail out just prior to be in another place entirely after the snap, that bit of info can make all the difference in toying with a QB. THAT was the issue...not bertrand berry getting a good jump.

As I said elsewhere, that's why I would have liked to see some quick snaps/no huddle.
Collinsworth...  
JoePap : 10/26/2009 7:52 pm : link
is a stiff
I think it had some validity  
lalalalala : 10/26/2009 8:20 pm : link

I would say it's because the Giants constantly snap at 1 or less, but a dlineman isn't really in position to know that, unless the can read the crowd's growing disgust
I like how  
santacruzom : 10/26/2009 8:43 pm : link
Collinsworth looks kind of nerdy and therefore gives his bashers the incorrect impression that he doesn't know 50 times more about football than they do.
I'm far from an expert...  
Dan in the Springs : 10/26/2009 10:25 pm : link
but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as a concern, simply because of Coughlin's comments that sometimes we need to just go ahead and run our play. It seems clear to me that Coughlin is concerned about reads and counters and I wouldn't be at all surprised to some day learn that teams were waiting for Omaha before getting into their proper defensive alignments.
it's valid  
The Jake : 10/26/2009 10:37 pm : link
in the sense that "Omaha" means that the ball will be snapped on the next "hut." that much, i thought was obvious.

it's NOT valid in the sense that i was under the impression that 99.9% of the football-watching world was aware of this PRIOR to last night's game, most significantly, every single coach and player in the NFL. collinsworth might as well have pointed out that you get 4 downs to move the ball 10 yards.

this is NOT a secret. Eli uses it when the clock is running down, as he acknowledges not having enough time to go through his normal cadence before the play clock expires. in essence, it's an audible for the cadence, meaning that rather than "on 4" (for example) or on the 4th "hut," we're now going to use the first "hut" because i don't have time to say "hut" four times without getting a delay of game penalty.
Jake,  
shepherdsam : 10/26/2009 10:40 pm : link
He'll "Omaha" and then hut hut HUT, so no.
almost  
The Jake : 10/26/2009 10:43 pm : link
certain that's wrong, shep. guess we should play closer attention next time. last night, it was "Omaha, Omaha, HUT" and the ball was snapped every time.
No sir.  
shepherdsam : 10/26/2009 10:44 pm : link
The counts change.
He's been doing it much longer than just last night.  
shepherdsam : 10/26/2009 10:45 pm : link
.
If you listen around the league  
Giant Mike : 10/26/2009 11:01 pm : link
A LOT of QB's use the Omaha cadence... this is a non story...
Doesn't Omaha  
JoeyBigBlue : 10/26/2009 11:06 pm : link
just mean that the snap count is "ONE"...???
Jay Cutlers geigh little brother  
j_rud : 10/26/2009 11:06 pm : link
Jake,  
shepherdsam : 10/26/2009 11:07 pm : link
I'll watch for this tomorrow but I'm sure I've heard him throw a couple huts together after an Omaha.
Sure would be stupid to call out Omaha three times to let them know we'd better snap it on the first Hut.
shep  
The Jake : 10/26/2009 11:11 pm : link
i'll check back after you've watched again. i'm almost certain it's the first hut after each "Omaha" call.
Jake,  
shepherdsam : 10/27/2009 5:47 pm : link
as far as I can tell, you're correct.
damn  
The Jake : 10/27/2009 9:08 pm : link
straight!

no, seriously. i think we need to mix it up a bit. but again, this wasn't exactly a revelation by collinsworth, and with 1 second on the playclock, being mysterious isn't a high priority.
I still think Anish's take makes a bit more sense  
shepherdsam : 10/27/2009 9:14 pm : link
there has to be a point to calling it, meaning it likely signifies something (like stop motion) other than simply "snap it on one".
I agree  
Bill Barilko : 10/27/2009 9:19 pm : link
Omaha should be least of our concerns. Eli has done a great job with the snap count before the snafus last week.

And while I no longer hate Collingsworth I believe he's overrated. It took me several years to get over his BS during SF meltdown. I was screaming "he was eligible and this asshole doesn't know the rules".
There's no validity to Collingsworth statement  
eclipz928 : 10/27/2009 9:39 pm : link
because the defense still doesn't know WHEN Eli is going to snap the ball. He can say 2 OMAHA's or 20 OMAHA's and it'll make no difference because there's no timing involved - it's whenever he says "hike".
rhetorical questions  
MindlessBanter : 10/28/2009 8:22 am : link
why does eli say "hut, hut" several times before he says "Omaha"?

answer: because he's trying to see what the defense is showing. the hope is that any blitzers will show their hand a little bit and the defensive alignment can be dissected.

another: if defenses know that the Giants aren't going to hike it until after the "Omaha" call, will they show their true intentions beforehand?

answer: no

and another: if defenses know that eli is using their alignment before he says "Omaha" for the basis of his line calls, is it possible that they might feign a completely false alignment to try to bait the Giants into running a play that plays into their strength?

answer: yes

If the play clock is at 3  
Giant Mike : 10/28/2009 8:38 am : link
when Eli calls Omaha... the defense is stuck in whatever look they were "showing"...
Giant Mike  
MindlessBanter : 10/28/2009 8:46 am : link
oh, so a guy who was acting like he's coming on a blitz has to come on a blitz? and guys who made no indication of coming on a blitz cannot suddenly blitz? and a safety lined up in the box cannot quickly back up into coverage?

i disagree
They could do that anyway...  
Giant Mike : 10/28/2009 8:53 am : link
no matter what the cadence is.

Look... the New York Giants are a professionsl football organization. They have been running this cadence since Tom Coughlin / Eli Manning arrived. During that time they have been one of the most successful regular season teams, made the playoffs every season, and, oh yea have won a freggin Super Bowl against what experts were calling the best team of ALL FREGGIN TIME.

Do you really think this stupid OMAHA crap is a problem???
I mean god this just KILLS me...  
Giant Mike : 10/28/2009 9:00 am : link
Do people really think that a HC like Coughlin, who has been around the league for nearly 3 decades; an OC like Gilbride who has been around just as long; and QB like Eli Manning, who by all accounts is an excellent student of the game, and has an unmatched pedigree as an NFL QB... are missing something this simplistic and tipping off defenses???

But some fans on a message board, many of whom I am not sure how they dress themselves, are all over it.
I think saying the Giants in this regime have made the playoffs  
Big Blue '56 : 10/28/2009 9:01 am : link
every season is the problem here..*Grin*
I don't really see too many people saying this is a big problem.  
shepherdsam : 10/28/2009 9:04 am : link

But we could always go talk about Megan Fox if thast's better.
That  
Giant Mike : 10/28/2009 9:16 am : link
would almost be as relevant to the success/failure of this team.
Nothing we talk about about here  
shepherdsam : 10/28/2009 9:28 am : link
makes a difference to the team, not sure why it matters.
It doesn't matter?  
Big Blue '56 : 10/28/2009 9:30 am : link
Bastid!!!
MURDERIN' Bastid!  
shepherdsam : 10/28/2009 9:31 am : link
.
MindlessBanter...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/28/2009 1:49 pm : link
Eli doesn't call Omaha on every play. Sometimes he calls out the huts and then the ball is hiked. It is only when he is changing or feigning a change that he does it.

Again, even if the opposition knows the ball will be snapped on hut, they have to first figure out that Omaha wasn't said, so it gives them no advantage.

By the way, he best answer in TC's press conference this week was when a reporter asked if running the play clock down to zero gave the defense an edge at jumping the snap clock and he said that it would only if the DL had extremely long necks to be able to see the clock from their stance.

You see, things that seem like valid questions from fans and reporters make actual football people laugh at the stupidity of them.
Blitzing LBs or DBs, though ...  
Beez : 10/28/2009 1:51 pm : link
they can see the play clock just fine.

I'm just sayin'.
Beez  
Semipro Lineman : 10/28/2009 1:56 pm : link
I'm sure that the first time some numbnuts who gets an offside resulting in a first down for the offense explains that he was going off the game clock as an excuse will be sitting next to the timekeeper afterwards
Blitzing LB's and DB's can't see the clock..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/28/2009 1:57 pm : link
unless they decide not to watch the ball being snapped.
If Eli had the ball snapped just as the clock hit 0 EVERY TIME  
Giant Mike : 10/28/2009 2:34 pm : link
you might have a point... but since he does not... any defender not watching the clock instead of the ball is going to be caught flatfootted at the snap more times than he gets that insignifigant jump by going as the clock hits zero...
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