Criticism of Cutler mounts

The look on Cutler's face was one of a guy who had no desire to be on that field.

the moment Cutler went out of the game. Your knee better be pretty f'd up for you to come out of that game. Like, he better need surgery.

and from the looks of it, it will be well deserved. It may have been hurt, but you try to play through it, it obviously wasn't devastatingly bad. Unreal.

as crappy as he was playing

that on the AFC game thread there were some knocks on BR when he continued playing through injury. He wants to be looked at as heroic.

through his career and has had his heart questioned. He isn't the toughest QB out there. Guys like Eli, Brady, Brees and even Sanchez and the kid from Detroit are much tougher

as shit. He stands in the pocket with his eyes downfield longer than any QB I have seen and he takes a lot of hits because of it. Most hits bounce off of him, but he's tough as shit, IMO.

His play was clearly hurting his team's chances of winning the game. I think it was in 2007, when Phillip Rivers played with a partially torn ACL against the Pats in the postseason. He was heralded for his toughness, but Rivers' underwhelming play took away any chance of winning despite a pretty good defensive effort by his team.

I'd wait to hear the medical report, but it looks like he was playing lousy and used the injury as an excuse to say, no mas.

constant treatment? A partial tear of his ACL and he would have been on crutches, in a brace with ice. Wasn't he just walking around on the sidelines?

And is back out there instantaneously...

And Mark Sanchez is a California girly man.

then he could play.

when did that happen?

And had to be helped off the field and attended to.

He was back in two minutes and zero offensive plays later.

his arm got slapped. It didn't look particularly brutal to me.

he got smoked, what were you watching?

got hit pretty hard. His head snapped back violently.

and didn't get back in. quarterback isn't a position where you're going to need to make too many cuts regardless.

Cutler cemented his reputation as a bit of a soft whiner. Eli takes a lot of lumps around here, but he would have damn well been out on that field until the end.

for the ball to fly 16 yards across the field out of his hands?

..

multiple Bears, not just Urlacher, came out in defense of Cutler, and Lovie Smith said it was the doctors who made the call to remove Cutler from the game

stand up for him. He looked genuinely pissed at the criticism Cutler's taking.

because I was thinking the same thing during the game. Cutler has no heart in my opinion. There are guys on BBI who would have played the whole game with a hurt knee. Throw a freaking brace on it and get the hell out there.

at least publicly, from inside his own locker room about this. There have however been more than a few individuals who have come out very vocally in his defense

would have played or ate cookies

good teammates do that. But I bet there were some pissed he came out of the game.

he'd go back in. I was thinking how could sit when his team needed him. He really must have fucked up his knee to not come back..

Wasn't Rivers limping around in NE couple years back when LT was hurt and on the bench with his helmet on???

He sucked balls in the first half. Bears had a better chance without him.

or something of that nature, he should have been out there. That's a disgrace. You need to show your teammates you won't give up. Cutler's body language did nothing to help his case. He looked disinterested and could care less. Cutler is a dirt bag.

really good Itallian bread

.

they could easily have thrown him under the bus. But they didn't (at least so far). Also shows that he has stronger support in that locker room than many seemed to think from behind their keyboard, where they view him as someone utterly hated by his teammates

Frankly, none of us have any clue how badly he was hurt. We do know that hes had unwavering support in his locker room and we've been told publicly that the doctors made the decision to pull him. But its just easier to out and out label someone a pussy without any information

either this offseason or last?

marshall. I am no way a fan of cutler's attitude, but it's easy sitting in a nice warm home saying how he needs to go back in the game because its a championship game. Believe it or not, qbs need their legs too.

No. An ex teammate of Urlacher made the claim that Urlacher told him that about him when they played him in Denver. Urlacher denied it

but to say he isn't tough is fucking stupid. He got his nose broke against the ravens a few weeks back and he went right back in the game. He has played through a lot of shit in his day. Sorry but that's just a dumb comment.

Quote:

Bobby Wade says Urlacher thinks Cutler's a "pussy" Posted by Mike Florio on July 29, 2009 12:45 PM ET Well, now that one offseason NFC North quarterback drama emanating from Minneapolis has ended (we think), the football-following world needs a new one. Enter Vikings receiver Bobby Wade. Wade told our pal Paul Allen of KFAN within the hour that, during an offseason trip to Vegas with Bears middle linebacker Brian Urlacher, Urlacher expressed a not-so-flattering opinion of new Bears quarterback Jay Cutler. Basically, Wade said that Urlacher said that Cutler is a "pussy." Urlacher has been the cornerstone of the Bears' defense since 2000; Cutler arrived via trade earlier this year. We're told that a podcast of the remaks will be up soon at KFAN's web site. We hope their hamsters are rested and fed.

Link - ( New Window )

Said Urlacher: “I never said what I was quoted as saying and that’s it. I have a lot of respect for Jay. I think Jay knows that.”

So why would Wade make it all up? “I don’t know,” Urlacher said. “Maybe he’s jealous because we have a good quarterback now.”

Also should be noted that these comments were allegedly made to Wade before Cutler was ever a Bear
Link - ( New Window )

my view is this. He sat on the bench and got very little treatment. Is there something the doctor's could have done? Who knows. But if he was back in the locker room getting treatment, or doing exercises (outside causually riding the bike) it would have looked better.

But it didnt take a genius to see that he was horrific in the first half, and then didnt play the second half.

Cutler's attitude has been called out many times, and he does not do much to enhance it.

too often equate macho, arrogrant, pride with toughness. We have no idea the extent of his injury and whether he could plant, or cut. Limping around out there would make him seem tough, but it could have been detrimental to the team. If an injured Cutler would have been less effective than Collins or Hanie, then not only would it have been foolish for Cutler to stay in the game, but it would have been selfish. It's arrogant of a person to think that if he doesn't play, even when seriously injured, that the team can't win. I find it ironic that people are criticizing Cutler for not being a team player and coming out of the game when staying in might have been worse for the team.

Additionally, it's worth noting that we don't know whether continuing to play today with that injury could result in permanent damage that could end his career. Sure, football is a sport that involves a lot of physical contact. But if continuing to play could have ended Cutler's career-- is it worth it? NFL players don't have guaranteed contracts. No one's crying for these rich athletes, I know, but he does have a future to consider.

Sure, other athletes have hobbled around with serious injuries and I have plenty of respect for their toughness. But just because some people are willing to play that injured and lay their careers on the line for a single game, it doesn't mean that those who don't are soft.

Your view differs from the doctors who treated him.

Larry you are way off on questioning Ben's heart. Then, in the same post you said Eli was tougher. Eli is our QB and that is great but there is NO WAY that he is tougher than Ben. The first thing you would tell me is that Eli is tough because he has a consecutive game streak going and that he played through that injury a while back.

I will counter with the fact that QBs like Ben play a more physical game than Eli. They do not shy away from contact. Meanwhile, Eli often chooses the path of least resistance. He makes sure that he does not put himself at risk of getting seriously hurt. Nothing wrong with that but he does not play as tough of a game that Ben does.

I didnt see the doctor's quotes yet. I am sure they came from Lovie.

My point is even before he got hurt in the first half, there was absolutely no reason to believe Cutler wanted any part of the game.

What do you expect his teammates to say, "He's a pussy and wasn't really hurt"? Of course they're going to defend him. I think we all know pretty damn sure what they are actually thinking though.

Hes not going to lie about what he was told by the doctors. The doctors made the decision that he could not return, according to Lovie

So maybe now you choose to believe Cutler is not only a pussy, but Lovie Smith is lying about what was told him by doctors? If they came from Lovie's mouth you have to trust him, unless you have deconstructed some Bears conspiracy theory from behind your keyboard. How about we deal reality instead of conjecture. Reality is doctors made the call that he could not return

Only thing worse than armchair QBs is armchair doctors

I didnt say Lovie was a liar, I just had not seen the quotes yet. I am sure he would make the statement for the doctor. All I meant.

these guys put their futures out there when they play.

hard.

It's Cutler, not another QB who is classy, or is perceived as classy. So this decision will get questioned. Hurt or not, I don't recall seeing him trying to pump up his team. He looked like LT did, except LT sat on the bench with his helmet on.

which are very valid. Soft is not one of them. Especially given the style of game he plays. Always willing to hold the ball until the last possible second to make a play in this Martz offense with its long developing routes, knowing hes going to get planted on the throw, he does hang in there. Takes off running and using his legs and doesn't shy away from contact as often as other QBs which we saw on a first quarter run of his today. He's taken a ton of punishment there over the last 2 years and without cheating to look it up I think he missed only one game and it was because of the concussion he got against us. I don't think its fair to call him soft

No one knows how the guy actually felt. HIs teammates came to bat for him and so did his coach. If this was Peyton Manning, no one would be saying a word.

with a headset on, helping the 3rd QB...

He didn't look to be in obvious pain, and it wasn't serious enough that they needed to treat him in the locker room...so why was he just sitting there on the bench?

Usually, you'd see the starter with a headset on, talking to the backup whenever he was on the sideline...or at least working with him while the defense was on the field.

Jay Cutler is now doing commercials for Tampex Tampona

not sure what one has to do with another?

I didn't see Sanchez get rocked. You see QBs take bigger hits all the time.

Mexican hygiene product?

but it better be something bad and it didn't look like it was. You don't come out of the NFC championship game with a minor injury. You just don't.

you had better believe JoeMP would be here destroying him.

I don't think he was THAT hurt, therefore neither Manning would come out of the game.

Jay Cutler finally gets to the playoffs for the first time in his career, wins a game, gets to the NFC title game.. 1 game away from a Super Bowl.. and then just bails on the game with a BS injury?

I mean.. does that really make any sense?

the mind of a quitter arc.

but no one knows what really happened.

afraid.

previous posts saying that it was obvious that Cutler wanted NO part of this game,, he reminded me of whatshisname in 07 against us in that cold Green Bay game,, all he did was stand on the sideline wiping snot from his nose,, this dude flat out didnt wanna compete today

He was one game away from a Super Bowl. What kind of NFL QB just wants to sit on the bench in that situation? It makes no sense.

.

arc, that's what is so fucking perplexing about it. Some guys are just afraid of moments like that, and it seems Cutler is one of them.

have you ever played sports before? Some guys can't handle the pressure, some guys quit when faced with adversity. It's not so uncommon. Not saying that's what happened, but it wouldn't be the first time someone quit.

Arc, good to see you have finally come around on Cutler, by the way.

is. It might not be BS.

no we don't and like I mentioned earlier, it's not unfair to wait before killing him. I just don't see how serious it could have been as he was walking around the sidelines. No crutches, no ice, no brace, no elevation, nothing.

for that

but he seemed completely out of it. He wasn't talking to the other QB's, Martz, anybody. He was just.... there.

Yeah, I have. But none of us have played in the NFL before. It's completely different.

Some guys aren't wired to be able to handle adversity.

I disagree.

there are a couple of BBIers who spend a lot of time near Cutler's lower half, they will be able to tell us how badly he is hurt.

yes. Competition is competition. Obviously the level is beyond anything any of us have been in, but it's all the same in the end. Some guys can't handle adversity and quit. They either quit mentally(we saw the Gmen do it a million times since 07) and some actually quit. Who knows if this is the case, but I sorta think it is. I also have no reason to dislike Cutler, just calling it like I see it.

That'd be my description of him in the game vs us this year.
Especially starting 53 seconds in - ( New Window )

I'm not a professional player...what the hell do I know about playing hurt in the NFL?

But many of his peers have come out on their Twitter accounts and ripped him. That is damning.

Cutler is one weird cat.

a player's heart is something that you can judge far more easily than an injury.

The guy was injured and he didn't play because he was injured.

Who comes out his rookie year and tries to tell the whole world the he has a stronger arm than John Elway?? Whether its true or not, you don't hype yourself up like that and compare yourself to a legend.

As far as today, it is fitting that the third quarterback on the team played better than he did before he got hurt. People hate on Eli, and all I can say is Thank God we didn't end up with a tool like this guy.

No heart, and a head case. He should feel lucky if he is even in the NFL in a few years. Watching how bored he looked on the sidelines, while your team is still in it to go to the Super Bowl, was just sad for Bears fans. I feel for them.

And most of it is because people simply dislike Jay Cutler for whatever reason.

He "looked" bored? Ok, great.. that's your take. Maybe he was bummed? Dejected? Of course not.. he's an asshole so he just must have been bored.

It's a dumb double standard. A lot of people are saying these things because it's Cutler.. if it was a more "popular" and well liked QB, this debate would not be taking place.

...bend over backwards to defend this douchebag POS. You'd think the guy wears blue the way some of you support him. The simple fact is, your minutes away from a SB, and if you have any freakin heart at all, why the hell are you even going to a doctor to look at your knee, if you are still healthy enough to pedal a bike or stand on the sideline?!??

When he got the shit beaten out of him during the Giants game

Giants fans who probably call in sick for the sniffles ripping an NFL quarterback for not playing when he's injured.

As amazing as the idiots like you who call him a "douchebag POS" for no reason? The blind hatred for the guy is absolutely retarded. He's never even played for a rival team of ours or effected the Giants in any way since he's been in the league. It continues to bewilder me how much people hate a guy that has nothing to do whatsoever with the team they root for.

.
Byron Leftwich plays on a 'sore' knee - ( New Window )

are = to quarterbacking an NFL team.

Got it!

. Ok. sure. Whatever. The guy is all class. Sorry, I guess I was confused.

lol, he always looks bored. That's just his natural look.

think he made himself a healthy scratch for the second half?

Answer: There is no logical reason and you guys are fantasizing.

What makes him such a "douchebag" and a "POS" ? Facial expressions he makes on the sideline that you think you are correctly evaluating?

Great, yeah.. what an asshole.

like some of you are implying, why on earth would the Bears accept that let alone cover up for it?

be scared of the Packers, enough to remove himself from the game? Doesn't make any sense. The Guy was hurt and felt he wasn't mobilemenough to get the job done.

I'm not saying he was a healthy scratch.

It is very odd, though. It isn't often you see someone that important riding a bike/walking around on the sidelines in a championship game.

LdT excluded.

Think it is possible that Lovie pulled him? That the injury stuff is just to save face for Jay?

Dumber things have been stated on this thread...

...with his freakin' 49 turnovers the past two years. Oh, but right, his horrible stats and W/L record aren't his fault.

And for my douchebag comment, I'll reference every single press conference the guy ever made.

although it happens at all levels. Not everyone has the same ticker.
I think he did get hurt, but not so hurt he couldnt have competed. I think in a game like that where there playing at such an intense level he did not want to put his body at risk to that defense without being able to scramble to protect himself.
He's going to have his toughess and heart questioned for a log time till he takes them to the SB.

Like I said, you have no basis for your bullshit.

The guy had his team playing in the NFC title game this year but he's a "POS" because of all his turnovers. I guess Eli Manning is a tremendous steaming pile of shit, too.. ya know, since he threw more picks than Cutler did this year.

Oh, nevermind.. that's completely fucking stupid and irrational. Much like yourself.

CSNChicago CSN Chicago
Report: Jay Cutler may have torn MCL, will undergo MRI on Monday
CSNChicago.com - ( New Window )

You are really giving him credit for that? And for winning a division when Rodgers was out for weeks and the other teams were the Lions and the Vikings?!? Come on.

Whatever, go ahead and call criticism against him unwarranted. I think the guy has no character. Let's agree to disagree. But honestly? I think I am winning the argument to date.

I dont know what to say other than you are simply wrong. I wouldn't be knocking either Manning in a similar situation

Also as an aside, the way every game thread, and every thread about any QB always comes back to Eli Manning here is getting beyond fucking absurd.

Ever since Jay Cutler was Diagnosed with type 1 Diabetes people close to him have said his behavior has changed a lot. Mood swings have been a real problem for him.

Why are you defending Cutler? Get your facts right, medically speaking, Cutler can definitely go with a torn MCL, players have played with that very injury many times before. Also, the most telling thing during the game was how little attention the training staff was giving Jay and that he was not wrapped; elevated; iced; or anything else that would suggest a 'serious' knee injury.

halftime. Did everyone see how he moved the opening series of the 3rd Qtr?
Did he llok like a player that couldnt move out there?
I know i didn't
But what made it really bad for me is to watch the 3rd stringer looking at cutups on the bench and Cutler just sitting there not even trying to assist him with what he mightve saw in the 1st half. That just looked bad to me.

You think you are winning the argument to date? LOL.. I think you sound like an adolescent who is making horrific countering points and have not once backed up your argument.

You're judging the character of a man you don't even know. Think about it.

There's no use in me even having this debate.. I'm wasting my time.

Yeah, QB's just readily play with torn MCL's all the time.

What a crock.

Quote:

Grade I MCL Tear This is an incomplete tear of the MCL. The tendon is still in continuity, and the symptoms are usually minimal. Patients usually complain of pain with pressure on the MCL, and may be able to return to their sport very quickly. Most athletes miss 1-2 weeks of play. Grade II MCL Tear Grade II injuries are also considered incomplete tears of the MCL. These patients may complain of instability when attempting to cut or pivot. The pain and swelling is more significant, and usually a period of 3-4 weeks of rest is necessary. Grade III MCL Tear A grade III injury is a complete tear of the MCL. Patients have significant pain and swelling, and often have difficulty bending the knee. Instability, or giving out, is a common finding with grade III MCL tears. A knee brace or a knee immobilizer is usually needed for comfort, and healing may take 6 weeks or longer.

Notice the swelling, pain, and difficulty in bending the knee in grades II and III? Well, we know that Cutler's knee wasn't iced or elevated (so obviously no swelling), and he certainly had no problem walking unassisted or peddling a bike (so rule that out as well).

They're saying MCL. Its BS. Chicago is trying to save face for Cutler.
Guide to MCL tears - ( New Window )

Quote:

Terps MarshallOnMontana : 1/23/2011 11:15 pm I dont know what to say other than you are simply wrong. I wouldn't be knocking either Manning in a similar situation Also as an aside, the way every game thread, and every thread about any QB always comes back to Eli Manning here is getting beyond fucking absurd.

But you've been one of the first to drag Eli into a conversation about other QB's, specifically Favre, in the past.

but does it need repeating that all injuries are different and we have no inside knowledge to how extensive and serious this injury was?

but after the game? Whooo boy. He would have said his leg fell off and was re-attached at halftime. He LURVS exaggerating his shit.

or not, and how crappy he played before he went out, how he was outplayed by the 3rd string QB, and how he looked like he couldn't give a flying fuck out there after the injury.

It's not the injury itself, it's the circumstances around it that are getting him killed in Chicago.
http://twitpic.com/3su0uy - ( New Window )

link didn't work for me.

try typing it in - it's definitely correct, but I tried clicking on it and didn't work, then typed it in and it loaded just fine.

now the link works for some reason.

Did any of you watch the pouncing Cutler took against the Giants?!? Nice sacks!!! He didn't yell or whine, nor did he point a finger at the o-line, he just kept playing.

But...

Yesterday, all of a sudden he becomes a pussy?

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

He displayed a lot of toughness in college getting crushed in the SEC on an overmatched Vanderbilt team. He did the same in the NFL. The guy is tough.

I think the guy was hurt and couldn't play. Simple as that.

He didn't keep playing, he played dead near the end of the first half.

.

...sitting around questioning a guy's toughness simply because they don't like him for the most part. Like I said before, I guarantee you.. if this was a more media friendly/likeable guy, this debate would not exist.

I mean, you literally have people here claiming to know that Cutler was "bored" and "didn't want anything to do with this game" because of his facial expressions. It's insane.

When did marshall admit to being Joe?

I could of swore I specifcially asked him that when he first got on the board and he denied it to me.

Cutler.

he never once denied that he was Joe.

You're one of the only people.

I mean, you've got a guy calling him a "piece of shit" and a "douchebag" because he turns the ball over a lot and comes off like a prick in his press conferences. Really? I'd hate to know what that poster thinks about Eli Manning considering he turned the ball over even more than Cutler did this year.

I don't know whether or not he could have played, but it's clear what the perception is that's out there and that is going to be difficult to overcome. I don't know if it'll ever work out for him in Chicago now.

I get that. I also see the other side. People are blindly defending Cutler and some of those people will be the first to rip our own QB. I understand that there is a big divide when discussing Cutler and a lot of people are very unfair with their criticism. I guess that causes a lot of people to defend him when I don't think they should.

because it's not that hard to envision Eli Manning being a victim on unfair criticism in the media if he were in a similar situation. Eli and Cutler are different QBs, but they do share some macro traits in the way they are perceived.

- Like Cutler, Eli is not beloved in the national media

- Like Cutler, Eli has taken some hits on irrelevant and idiotic subjects like facial expressions and body language

- Neither Eli nor Cutler are "rah-rah" types on the sidelines and for better or worse, neither guy has that "in your face" tough guy image that sports writers and casual fans seem to love

- Despite all of these superficial observations, neither Eli nor Cutler has given anybody a legitimate reason to doubt their toughness as a football player at any level

Thankfully Eli has not sustained many injuries during his career and hopefully we will not get to test out this hypothesis. But if Eli were in an identical situation, I wouldn't be surprised if he were on the receiving end of similar attacks. And people around here would rightfully scoff at those criticisms and consider them idiotic and ridiculous.

Really, what this boils down to is judging a guy based on how he looks and using that judgement to make gargantuan leaps of faith based on zero factual evidence to make the most damning criticism possible of a professional athlete.

separated his throwing shoulder and missed 0 games.

To me he did.

ok. To me he never denied it, or anyone else I saw. It clearly wasn't something he was hiding, IMO.

can be played through, and those players can still be effective. Other injuries render players completely ineffective no matter how tough or willing to gut it out the players may be.

I don't like Cutler. I think he is immature and unfocused. I don't like his demeanor. I thought that after being sidelined, he should have turned more into a coach/cheerleader talking with the offensive unit. As the #1 QB on the team, he should have a lot of insight to discuss what he sees on the field and give tips to the other QBs and to the other offensive players. He didn't do that, and that sucks.

But I can't question his toughness without knowing the extent of the injury or knowing how debilitating it was yesterday. They took several huge hits in his tenure at Vanderbilt against a stacked SEC, he's taken plenty of hard sacks in the NFL, and when he runs with the ball, he allows himself to get hit instead of sliding on a number of occasions.

I can't imagine any quarterback who's played in college and been in the league for a number of years could be considered soft. They have 300LB athletic freaks barreling down at them on every play. Some may be tougher or crazier than others, but it takes a certain confidence and toughness to even play the position knowing the potential blindsided hits.

It's not a matter of physical toughness and being able to play hurt. It's a matter of mental toughness and being willing to play through injuries. I didn't see this as a debilitating injury for many reasons that I already mentioned(wasn't really limping, looked fine dropping back when he came back, no brace, no crutches) and it looked like he mentally quit.

consider it may have been a coaching decision to keep Cutler off the field?

I don't see how it was a coaches decision. Cutler came back out in the 3rd, looked fine dropping back and then looked to take himself out. I obviously don't know for sure though because I wasn't on the sidelines.

You don't know for sure and neither does anyone else here.

that it's just my OPINION. I obviously realize that my OPINION isn't a fact. Thank you for pointing that out.

don't like the guy for various reasons, but I'm damn sure willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until some further information comes out.

I just think questioning another man's heart is a bad idea. That's my opinion.

I respect your opinion.

current and former players are so openly ripping him already.

Is how so many people just simply don't like Jay Cutler based on his "demeanor" and supposed "bad attitude". Those same people more than likely think it's ridiculous when people judge Eli based on his demeanor, no? I know I do. And I think it's equally as ridiculous when people do it with any other QB.. including Cutler.

yes, that's a little smoke that might mean something.

Whatever the truth is, it will come out.

Bingo.

arc. I don't get the hate for Cutler when discussing how he "looks".

keep in mind that all of those players are basing that off of what they saw on television, just like us. They weren't there and the ones quoted aren't quarterbacks playing behind that poor Bears offensive line. From watching on tv, it looked shocking to everyone that he couldn't play.

people like Larry O, take the exact opposite side and anytime you have a legit criticism, they flip out.

I understand if people don't like him as a QB and think he makes bad decisions or whatever.. it just drives me nuts when people pile on a guy for such a stupid reason. The same way that it annoys the crap out of me when my Jet fan friends say stuff like "Eli Manning? Yawnnn... that guy is SO fucking boring! He looks like he doesn't even care or he looks scared to be out there".. it's just such a crock and it's the reason why a lot of people legitimately don't like Eli which is insane to me.

A lot of the same shit we read about Eli and I hated it.

Thx for the shout out.

An opinion should be based on something.

My issue is that yours is based on nothing.

To blindly say things without any factual basis is (IMO) useless.

Have an opinion - fine, but base it on more than 'he looked okay to me'.....maybe consider things like facts, trends or insight.

BTW - this arguement becomes irrelevant as it was just released that he does have an injury.

I am doubting that he couldn't play through it.

best way to deflect is to cite injury. Doubtful that Cutler actually chose to take himself out. But his play and the fact that he DID have an injury of some sort made it a good call for Lovie. The 3rd stringer almost got them all the way back...

I think it says less about Cutler's desire to play as his ability to handle what was thrown at him on Sunday. He would have stayed out there, IMO, and gotten pummeled just as he did against us. Lovie saw that movie before and probably thought it was in the team's best interests to go with someone else.

Obviously it's all speculation at this point but my guess is that Lovie saw that Cutler was spiraling downward and made the call to pull him, citing an injury that Cutler did have (which may have also been limiting his effectiveness).

is your opinion based on? It's based on nothing.

that Cutler was too hurt to play. And sometimes, there isn't much that sideline or locker room training staff can do for treatment without getting MRI (or whatever) data first.

But the team's training staff and coaching made a pretty big screwup from a PR perspective in letting him just stand there on the sidelines. Even if he doesn't need it, get a big pack of ice on that knee (given the temperature on the field, it's probably superfluous), or an immobilization brace and a pair of crutches. Or at least run him into the locker room and change him into civvies. What are the chances that the Chicago fanbase is ever going to support him now?

alluded to Cutler coming out of the game on his own on a Charlotte radio station earlier today. When asked point blank, he said, "I'm not going to go into this any deeper".

He also said that it was tough to come back from a deficit knowing that some players weren't giving their all.

I hope Cutler as a significant injury, because if he doesn't, it is unacceptable to pull yourself in a playoff game, and he will be thrown to the wolves in Chicago.

real easy to critique a guy from your living room. people act like what rivers did a few years ago is par for the course.

Yikes.

Cutler's in a bad, bad spot here. It's only a day after and making decisions this quickly is generally a bad idea, but I wonder if the Bears consider moving him.

against him... If his own lockerroom turns, he's done.

Urlacher is supporting him. Peppers is a guy who will keep quiet, so unless somebody makes a big deal about the charlotte interview, it will probably die there.

It will be interesting if any other Bears chime in.

for a team when you see the opposing QB on crutches or in civies. I can see why the Bears decided to keep Cutler covered up with the cold weather jacket and nothing more.

And i would find it easy for players sitting at home (not to mention fans watching on tv) to speculate about another player leaving a championship game. He didn't seem like he was in a ton of pain, wasn't on crutches and otherwise seemed to be in good condition.

He'll continue to take a ton of heat on this - and maybe he could have played through it - we may never know.

That being said - i think Mike Martz is the one who needs to be called out today - horrific play calling by one of the most overrated offensive minds in the game.

they're apparently more consumed by the fact that Hanie did well in the 4th quarter than anything else. I think that much is what is saving Martz from further criticism (which isn't to say it's not warranted).

Smith is taking a beating though. From the sole Bears fan I know out there, he said all the talk radio is openly questioning an extension which more than likely will be signed in the next day or two.

i'd think Cutler's center would have more insight than say...Deion Sanders.

at home, against a rival in a championship game. One that saw the 3rd stringer come in at crunch time and do better than he had.

That's what's going to plague Cutler in Chicago fans' eyes. Some will be hung up on the injury status, most will remember that he did jack squat with the time he did have on the field before the injury.

Quote:

hey fatman, what's olin kreutz's stance on this? David in LA : 11:56 am i'd think Cutler's center would have more insight than say...Deion Sanders

When is Julius Peppers considered Deion sanders?

Do you need reading comprehension classes?

no way that Pepper's interview dies...is there?

That's a pretty damning statement.

He's already put it in 2 places.

and either way, i'd like to think the center has a better feel for the health of their QB than a teammate that plays defense that's never in the huddle with him anyways.

.

he backtracks on that statement. Teammates don't call each other out and he will say that he wasn't talking about Cutler and won't talk about it further. I guarantee it.

you'll have to give me a pass, there's like 6 jay cutler threads going on right now.

But Cutler's image is toast in Chicago. Even the fans that will give him the benefit of the doubt on the injury (and at least a sizable chunk won't) are, as jcn mentions, going to remember how poorly he played in a home NFC championship against their most bitter rivals. He's going to get booed like a sonofabitch next year, guaranteed.

Knowing how quiet Peppers is unless the Charlotte sports station wants publicity it will die.

He was asked about Cutler being injured and he said that Cutler took some hits, but thought at halftime they would regroup and execute better but that Jay stayed out of the game after the first drive.

Then he was asked if Cutler pulled himself and Peppers said he wouldn't get into that.

The guy never makes controversial statements and is an introvert. I'm pretty sure it will die there, and quite frankly, there is no definitive challenge to Cutler's toughness from his words. Just innuendo.

Innuendo and open to interpretation, and that's exactly why I don't think it will die.

?

it was on 610-AM WFNZ. I didn't see any mention of it earlier.

Thanks.

was how bad he was before he got hurt.

It's actually very possible that he was flat out benched yesterday. The thing being lost in this is that Cutler just isn't a very good quarterback, and was utterly atrocious yesterday even when he was healthy. I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago looks around a bit and sees what they can get for him. They can't win a Super Bowl with him at QB, and I'm sure they know that.

Maybe he was benched. Will we ever know the truth?

they played over their heads, and the clock turned midnight on cinderella. you can go on and on about how jay isn't good enough to get them to the super bowl, but i certainly wouldn't trade our recievers, OL, and rb's for their cast.

David. Chicago was lucky to be in that game to begin with.

have been a rebroadcast from an interview last night.

Quote:

Maybe they'll have it archived and up later. Britt in VA : 12:20 pm Thanks.

It was 6:15AM when I heard it today.

You wouldn't want Matt Forte (if the price was right)?

Agreed on the others, though...

Forte, but I don't see any chance he leaves Chi.

he disappeared last year and bounced back nicely this year. would i want him over AB? probably not.

Having someone in the backfield with hands like that is tremendous..

.

would be insane.

him for Collins. That's ridiculous.

Cutler had a good year. You don't bench the QB in the champ game because he missed a few passes. Especially when the backup is Collins who's season line reads 29 passes, 0 TDs, 5 Ints.

Cutler was hurt.

He could not play.

Some players and fans are taking cheap shots at him. Ths wil end soon. The torn MCL should be enough proof for most.

All of this will die down and Cutler will be the starter for CHI next year.

opted out or if it was the medical staff. I'm sorry, the docs pulling the plug makes no sense. They hadn't done an MRI, they had no idea how serious the injury was. The ONLY thing they can go on is what the player tells them. So if they were going to pull him, they would have done it at halftime.

And Urlacher is doing what any good team leader should do, closing ranks. No one outside the locker room is allowed to question anyone inside of it, and no one inside the locker room better say anything negative. That's why Urlacher is the player he is. Who on that team wouldn't go to war for him?

I have no idea how badly Cutler was hurt, but I don't buy the excuses Lovie is putting out there. Maybe he made the change because Cutler wasn't playing well, but seriously, you'd want Todd Collins in that spot? I'd go with a shaky Cutler any day. I think Cutler tried to play, and didn't feel he could continue. As someone who has had a 3rd degree MCL tear, I think he should have been able to continue.

that the dr's pulled him. If that was the case, he never would have tried to play in the 3rd.

could have said nothing and not defend him the way he did. He must be awesome poker player.

how exactly do you elude a clay matthews?

Urlacher felt he had to make a statement. He's the team leader, and he wasn't going to let anyone outside the locker room question his QB. That's WHY he's the team leader.

with the shaky and wobbly knee.

sat himself. if anyone, the starting center would have a good idea on how bad it was.

before/during/after a play.

then he wouldn't have played in the 3rd and he wouldn't have looked as "ok" as he did dropping back. And did Kruetz feel his knee or just notice that by looking at him. Cmon now.

noticed his shaky and wobbly knee while watching him play?

What else does he have to do; make the blocking calls?

I missed the sarcasm. My bad.

i think for a while you can get away with playing on the knee, but that's kind of ephemeral and short lived once the adrenaline runs out.

see in his QB that shows his knee is shaky and wobbling. That is such a major stretch it's not even funny.

One is the extent of the injury. I don't think that one will ever be addressed extensively enough for some, and in any case none of us really know what went on there. Me, I'd give Cutler and the docs the benefit of the doubt on this one.

The other is perception - both how the fans perceived it, and how his teammates perceived it. Kreutz addressed it pretty firmly, Peppers much more ambiguously. We'll see how that plays out in the future. I think Cutler's pretty much screwed when it comes to the majority of Bears fans, though.

peter in atlanta will get really upset and yell at me.

it twice. It proves nothing.

people will wonder why he didn't bother giving it a go. it's a tough spot to be in, and it's a lose-lose proposition no matter what he decided to do.

he comes out, looks fine dropping back and then pulls himself. That will help.

but i highly doubt he just pulled himself. sitting from your couch, he looked fine, but i don't think you're in the best position to just assume he could have played through it. when you're pumped up full of adrenaline, you can appear fine, once that wears off? not so much.

I feel the need to rile up some posters.

have worn off? Because he mentally quit already?

seem to think i'm shitting on Eli already, so it's started already.

.

thank you for letting me believe what I want to believe. It's appreciated.

you're a softball stud, you should know this!

-josh mcdaniels

Britt, exactly.

My adrenaline is pumping right fucking now. It might wear off for quitters, but not tough winners like me.

Seriously though, Eli sucks.

People have pretty much made their minds up about this, and obviously the report of the torn MCL isn't swaying those who think Cutler just didn't want to play. You just can't reason with some people.

you know this debate becomes serious when you bring out the slow pitch softball. The guns are a blazing now!!!

pipe down, I am very reasonable.

Greg, I think Britt means nothing to debate re: Eli v. Cutler. That case has always been closed, but now it is just obvious to anyone paying attention. They aren't even close to the same level.

I assumed he was talking about a mans league like fast pitch softball.

people would still criticize jay for faking and quitting on the team.

only threw 20 INT's maybe we are in the SB? Hmm, if only.

find a man calling another man a stud a little weird and creepy? Or is BBI just one big lovefest anymore?

And he said Cutler Mounts are the worst fucking Mounts on the market.

Just FYI.

it makes you come off as stupid. no one thinks cutler is better than eli, so let's stop talking like children here.

- "This is the deepest penetration the Jets have had all night."

- "Big Ben pulls out...."

Seriously, I am really fucked up today.

I never supported McDaniels, I just said he shouldn't be fired in month 2 of the offseason over his handling of the "untradeable franchise QB", but keep backpeddling, David. I never cared about him, I was jusy playing devil's advocate to you wildly overrating Cutler. Then... And now.

You've been the biggest Cutler jock sniffer on this site since day 1, that's no secret. And you have ripped Eli, many a time to back up a Cutler argument, contrary to what you've said. It's obvious to everybody. Even arcarsenal and Kyle softened their stances on it to be able to discuss it rationally, but not you, David. You kept on with it, and here we are.

When Cutler was playing poorly, you either made excuses or stayed out of Cutler threads altogether. I could have ripped you so many times last year, but I didn't. But you... Anytime Cutler did anything even remotely decent, you'd flaunt it unbearably, causing the exact backlash that you're seeing on this site right now.

Now this is happening, lol...

biggest.

for taking the high road.....well up til now.

?

My guess was arc, but he has been better lately.

Joey stats.(I still love you Joseph)

JoeyNickels??? He has been a big Cutler fan throughout the last few years.

you're going to have to do better than pulling out excerpts from the BBI book revisionist history. people just get their panties in a bunch if people are complementary of other QBs and bring up the warts in ours (no QB is completely immune from criticism).

I am on fire today!

...that Jay Cutler would be the source of so much strife here?

The guy is what he is - a very talented, very flawed QB laboring in an offense that doesn't have that much talent around him, who also tends to be a bit on the jerky side.

somewhere in the middle, very high ceiling, hasn't quite put it together. 11-5 is much better than 99% of this board expected of the bears going into this season. you're just unable to graps that the concept that the sum of the parts surrounding your team is what ultimately decides whether or not you're championship caliber. the packers were the better team, and that's why they won.

but it is odd how many times perceived shortcomings with Eli are brought up to "strengthen" arguments that Cutler is a good QB or Player X is a good QB.

It's almost as if people have to make one QB out to be a schmuck to make another QB look better, and I'm not sure why that's the case.

I said it last week when people were bringing up Eli's shortfalls when discussing rodgers. They are BOTH good QB's. Not sure why that's so hard for people to comprehend.

with tremendous skill. Here's the thing with Cutler....

Can you trust him to play 3-4 games in the playoffs and not cost his team the game? My answer is no. Regardless of his injury yesterday, he was quite bad and was hurting his team.

you think you're fair.

Your mother probably thinks you're handsome.

as if i think he's a top 5 qb right now. at the time, i thought he was on the cusp of taking another leap, but things like getting traded and learning an entirely new system behind a raggy OL made him look worse than he was. when you have little talent around you, turnovers happen because you're trying to make things happen.

i was critical of the trade, because it's fucking stupid to just trade a qb you staked your future in for a journeyman. that sanctimonious fuck (josh mcdaniels) put in a nice system, but stripped that team of talent, and now he's gone. even Elway has been on record as saying that he thinks if he was overseeing football operations at the time, cutler would still be a bronco, because you just don't trade guys like that.

Is it really odd?

You will have a discussion on Cutler, Rodgers, etc. and you will have somebody jump in with "He isn't clutch like Eli…doesn’t have a ring like Eli…call me when he gets a SB MVP like Eli”.

I don't want to spend any more time discussing Cutler, personally.

by a snide comment here or there...

but when you start a thread about the guy, you've opened yourself up for that discussion.

both situations are odd if you ask me.

specifically the one you made a couple of days ago about how the book was closed and Cutler is in the NFC Championship and McDaniels is fired.

who got the better end of that deal? chicago has an nfc championship game to show for it and has exceeded many expectations, while Denver fired boy genius and missed the playoffs. Denver outsmarted themselves by passing up Spags. Spags would have addressed the defense (which is why they missed the playoffs in Cutler's last season in Denver), and probably kept Bates, the coordinator who Cutler wanted the organization to keep. if you have a guy that you might believe is your franchise qb, you don't dangle him around in trade talks, even if there is a possible upgrade available. good organizations build around the qb, which is what ours did. that trade was stupid and indefensible, and set Denver back more than it helped them. there's no arguing that IMO.

in most cases its a reply to the Eli comments. On BBI, the rule is you can’t praise other QBs without somebody jumping in with comments on Eli such as the SB MVP stuff.

It never fails.

would you trade two 1st round picks, a 3rd round pick, and a servicable QB for him?

Matt Schaub cost the Texans two 2nd rounders by comparison.

I don't care. I don't care about Cutler, I don't care about McDaniels, I don't care about Chicago, and I don't care about Denver.

I just, well, I don't care, haha.

they're further behind than they were before they fired Shanahan. There are no guarantees with Tebow's future over there right now, so they still might be looking for a QB.

that trade at this point, IMO.

when Denver got off to their hot start. the same anti-cutler guys that were piling on when they were winning disappeared when they completely collapsed in the 2nd half of last year. let's not pretend like people took the high road last year when Jay was tossing picks left and right, they had nothing else to really support their end of the debate since they collapsed. McDaniels doesn't get nearly as enough shit as he should. There was a weird rift between McDaniels and Nolan last year, where Nolan curiously left Denver. If anything their hot start was due to their defense, and all of a sudden McDaniels and the guy responsible for that couldn't get along.

I can only speak for myself. I don't think it's fair to judge yet.

the direction denver was going certainly wasn't a positive one, and I think on the whole, Denver screwed the pooch when they hired McDaniels from the beginning. they'd have been better off with a defensive minded guy and keeping Bates at OC. I recall Cutler was promised they wouldn't change the offense. They did. Then they entertained trading him. That's just not what you do.

If Cutler actually takes the next step, if Denver uses those picks well and if those picks help turn it around. I think it's unfair to judge it from Denver's side so early on.

They are a mess right now.

They dumped the wrong guy. They should have dumped the new coach and kept Cutler(along with Marshall and Hillis)

tell.

get with those draft picks?

championship game. let's not downplay it like Chicago carried Cutler to that game, he helped them pull out plenty of games this season. Denver's going in a completely different direction with Elway running football operations, and he's been on record saying he feels Jay would still be a Bronco if he were there last season. Though the Broncos got decent compensation, when a coach is fired, and the team essentially hires a new GM, i think that chapter has closed.

I don't think Cutler is a great QB. I think he's ok. He's got amazing physical tools, but that's not enough. I don't think it was a terrible idea for Denver to trade him, but all the other moves and decisions were dumb, IMO.

is the word to describe it.

He was 25 yrs old. His 2nd year he made the pro bowl. They needed to take steps to improve. Trading the young QB was NOT the step to take.

It's pretty clear DEN made the wrong choice.

They saw Cutler daily and knew what they had with him. I think the jury is still out on that move, but I don't think they were proven to be wrong.......yet.

is Demaryius Thomas, Robert Ayers, and Seth Olsen. Good thing McDaniels is a great talent evaluator.

What they did with the picks and a few moves following the trade were terrible. Still not sold on Cutler though.

McDaniels outsmarted himself and essentially punched his ticket out of Denver.

the "trade" or the Bears getting the better end, or the Broncos getting the better end. We didn't even know who the trade partner would be back then.

The initial argument, way back when, was whether or not Jay Cutler was an "untradeable franchise QB".

Now, depending on how this all plays out, it's not that far out of the realm of possibility to see the once untradeable get traded. Again.

They knew?

Did they also know what they had with the new coach? Hillis? And Marshall?

Apparently they didn’t know much. Because the team is in much worse shape now than before the trade.

They may have thought they knew. They thought it was a good idea to stick with the new coach over these players. They were very wrong. But props to them for quickly changing it by dumping the coach just 1.5 yrs later.

was ever a franchise QB that shouldn't be traded.

He's not great.. not a top 10 guy.. but he's good. He doesn't "suck", he's not "awful".. he just hasn't really put it all together yet. Will he? Who knows. But this was his 2nd year in Chicago and he got that team to the NFC title game this year.. and this isn't the 2000 Ravens where the QB was literally carried by defense and the running game and did virtually nothing. Cutler played well at many points in the year.

make a total commitment to their QB. There are few QB's better than Eli that i'd consider an upgrade, just because they're out there doesn't mean Coughlin is putting him out there on the trade block.

they are a much better team. No fucking way.

and what's their record? I don't think it's much better than 4-12 personally.

is that they draft Tebow under McDaniels and then dump the guy before he can develop him. I mean, why? Why fire McDaniel at that point? Unless they were so embarrassed by the cheating scandal or there was some behind the scenes crap we don't know about. That franchise is moving backwards at a rapid pace.

they have to learn a new system, adjust to their WR's, it just doesn't make your team better because you have to go through a learning curve again. Cutler at 25, came off of a pro bowl, and Denver had a great offense going with Marshall and Royal. it's safe to say the more reasonable decision was to just keep him and see if he builds off his success.

are. Much better.

I don't think they are.

for Orton, 2009 and 2010 first rounders, and a 2009 third rounder. That's an awful lot.

The problem is Denver's been horribly mismanaged. Alphonso Smith, one of the guys they drafted, isn't even on the team anymore.

In 2009 they took Moreno over Orakpo, Cushing, and Freeman, and then took Ayers over Maclin, Mack, Oher, Harvin, Matthews Jr., and Nicks.

In 2010 they took Thomas and Tebow.

they'd probably have kept Jim Bates, and their talented WR's. There's a good reason why Eddie Royal has put up pedestrian numbers without Cutler. he has the arm to take advantage of his downfield speed.

Maybe they saw Marshal, Hillis, and Cutler play this year?


And maybe they watched what the coach wanted on the field for DEN(and this includes Tebow)?

If they were smarter with what they got for Cutler, maybe they wouldn't be so bad. I agree with that. Terrible management on that team.

Pat Bowlen has turned into the poor man's Al Davis before our very eyes. They really should have just hired Spags, kept the offense, and let him address the D. That would have been a much simpler fix.

just saying that they specifically drafted Tebow under McDaniels, I'm assuming so he could tutor him, being an offensive specialist. But to then bail now, Tebow will have to learn a new system, I don't get it. You have to give McDaniel a chance to develop the kid.

to as bad as the Marshall trade.

Im certainly not Cutler's biggest fan. About the only things ive said in his defense as a player are the following

1. I think Chicago crushed Denver in the trade

2. I think Cutler is a top 12 or so QB, on roughly the same tier as Eli and a couple others in that 9-12 or so range.

Its important to note regarding #2, I think Eli is marginally better, but Eli is much closer to him as a Quarterback than he is to the Rodgers, Roethlisberger's and Rivers of the world who he is at times compared to here

If thats considered being his biggest fan, I don't know. I think in general this is how most people perceive him

i don't like the guy nearly as much as some people might think i do, i just kind of ended up backing the guy because i think some people are flat out wrong about the guy's talent. his criticism is really a constantly moving target. before the playoffs, people just alluded to his W/L record going all the way to vanderbilt. it's unrealistic to really expect one guy to carry Vanderbilt in the SEC, which is regarded by many as the the toughest conference in college football. now that he's won a playoff game, people will play it off like the rest of the Chicago team carried the bears to the NFC Championship. the bears were really a team that maximized the talent on their roster. It's not a stretch to say that they could use some upgrades on the OL, and at WR position.

its crazy the crossover appeal this is getting. As i type this, Ed Schulz from the "Ed Show" on MSNBC is now taking a full segment out of his show, which is a political show that never talks about sports, to rip Cutler to shreds lmao. Hes even reading unintelligible tweets from NFL players on the matter and having a tough time making sense of some of them on air.

Id venture a guess that 90% of the people watching the show had never heard of cutler until this segment

I think having the same coordinator now for a 2nd year in a row after going through 3 systems in 3 seasons will help him too. They need to upgrade the O line and could still use a playmaker at the WR position for sure. Im personally not Martz biggest fan but if Cutler can stay upright there hes going to have a pretty successful next handful of years

Than he is to the other three QBs you mentioned is absurd, IMO. What has rivers done other than put up fantasy stats and fall flat in big games?

Granted I think Ben and rodgers are better, but this weekend they proved how great defenses can overcome adequate QB play. Big Ben had as many negative than positive plays.

Eli is closer to the three you mentioned than to the most inconsistent QB in the NFL.

that have come out of the woodwork to call Cutler a pussy, in a league where that sort of critcism is uncommon. For whatever reason, Cutler has generated massive negative equity around the league and with the media.

I think there are only a few choices:

1. he is uncomfortable socially and comes across poorly
2. he has mismanaged his public persona terribly
3. he is really that much of a douchebag

ran the ball more this season than I can ever remember? Is that a function of his confidence in Cutler or was it a call by Lovie Smith?

For reference, Martz's teams typically pass 60-70% of the time. (Check out the 2006 Lions pass/run split for a really extreme example.) And he did so with some no-name QBs without the pedigree of Cutler.

You are a homer. There is no reasoning with you if you won't concede that Phil Rivers is excellent. Its the same way you bash every NBA PG not named Derrick Rose to hype up Derrick Rose. Its downright nauseating and its your whole bbi routine

The only corner of the world where Eli would be thought of as better than Rivers is "Petes Corner", and even upwards of 85% of the people here would agree hes not. A typical football fan with no affiliation with the Giants would be rolling on the floor laughing, literally, at your take between the two QBs

I also like how Cutler is inconsistent, but Eli isn't. Eli is one of the more inconsistent good QBs in the league, much like Cutler. Its a reason why neither is on the level of a Phil Rivers

and how they exist in every fan base, i got a chuckle out of this poll (linked) when taking a gander at a Jet board to read some of the fallout of their loss

Every fan base has theirs. In fact if you went to a Bears board and compared Cutler to Eli they would view it as a slight at Jay Cutler
Link - ( New Window )

this is why you left the first time, because you think your opinion is just so much better than others, when in reality its not - and even more so, its not even close to being fact either. Its funny you bring up Rose and me bashing every PG in the league (even though I only bashed one and said he was overrated, but keep making up lies). I am pretty sure I had Rose as the 4th best PG in the league coming into this year behind CP3, Williams, and Nash. Man, I am a fucking homer. By the way - what PG is one of the leading MVP candidates this year? I can see your point on how off I was on that one.

Onto Eli. I already said Rodgers and Big Ben are better than Eli, so I dont know how that point makes me a Eli homer, but ok. But yes, I find Rivers overrated. I have for years, and I have never swayed in any other direction. You want some reasons why???

1. Three years, San Diego had either the best record or one of the best teams in the playoffs, and Rivers literally cost them every game with either poor play or poor decisions. Whether it was giving up the game winning TD on an INT out of his endzone, throwing a costly pick against NE with a 14-2 team, or not getting into the endzone against NE in 07 despite being inside their 10 three times, and throw in a few turnovers as well. Usually the bigger the game, the smaller Rivers comes up.

2. He has played in the WORST division in football the last 5 years. Not even debatable. And last time I checked, he didnt win that division this year.

3. Playing in sunny SD and playing with one of the best offensive minds ever, Norv Turner, tends to lead to be better QB play. This isnt a knock on Gilbride, but Turner's history speaks for itself. And playing in the winds of East Rutherford, is a TAD different than playing in SD.

4. His play this year was overrated based on "fantasy stats." He had FOUR opportunities this year in the last 6 minutes of the game to lead his team to the game winning or tying score. 4 times he failed by either turning it over (Two INTs against Seattle down 7, a fumble picked up for a TD down 1 when they were outside FG range, INT for STL) or by not getting in field position (ball at NEs 48 with 2:00 to go and 3 TOs, and he may have gotten 12-13 yards.) "Excellent" QBs dont lose to Oakland (twice), Seattle, St. Louis, and Cincinnati.

So to me, that doesnt speak of a top 5 QB. Sorry to say but Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, and Big Ben are all FAR better than Rivers. You cannot make a claim for Rivers over any of those QBs right now.

As for Cutler vs. Eli..... Yes, Eli threw a lot of INTs this year, no one will disagree. But the last time I checked he was top 10 in passing yards, percentage, and TDs - how is that not being consistent? You cannot rely on Cutler to string together 3-4-5 games, he will always cost you in one. He was down right pathetic against GB in their finale, he looked great against an awesome 8-9 Seahawks team, and looked pathetic again on Sunday before bowing out to an "injury." Cutler has always been turnover prone, and even moreso than Eli. Eli had two consecutive years before this year where he had 10 and 14 INTs.... pretty good if you ask me.

I bet if you asked anyone in the NFL right now who they would prefer, the majority wouldnt even blink an eye before saying Eli. And if I feel Eli is closer to Rodgers, Big Ben, and "Rivers" than a guy who hurts his teams chances of winning more than a few times in a season..... well I will be glad to be a homer.

But you arent a homer by any means. We all remember your little pouting match you got into last year with Favre before you got so worked up that you had to leave. The problem is you dont respect anyone's opinion. You have to belittle them because they dont see the same side of you. Very noble of you. Again, tell me what Rivers has done besides put up fantasy stats??? Last time I checked, Big Ben doesnt put up big numbers and is considered a top 5 QB.

Your lost.

1. If you want to boil the careers of Eli and Rivers down to a couple of playoff games, you are the lowest common denominator of a fan. Lets throw out years of performance and instead focus on 1-2 playoff games. And its not like Rivers hasn't had very big playoff moments and Eli hasn't had epically shitty playoff moments

2. Regarding his division, take a look at how hes handled other divisions including his shit taking on the NFC East last season

3. Playing in SD is so beneficial that Eli did everything in his power to avoid that situation. Have you taken a look at the goings-on in their franchise the last couple seasons? Organizationally, we dwarf them

4. Again, just more absurd talk when he was getting it done with people no one ever heard of before and castoffs from elsewhere for a good portion of the season

You hold an opinion that would be heartily laughed out of the room in any room outside of a thread on this site, where perhaps there is a small minority who see things the way you do

me leaving BBI had absolutely zero to do with Brett Favre.

what has Rivers done besides put up fantasy stats? He comes up small when the pressure is on. And yes playing in sunny SD is a lot different than playing in East Rutherford. That isnt a debate. The one real cold game Rivers played in all year, he shit the bed (I wont base his career on that, but it is telling.)

Sorry, I have seen Rivers play plenty of times, and I am not saying he isnt a good QB, but IMO he is better known for numbers than big victories. And if you are going to compare any division to the AFC West of the last 5 years, than you werent watching much of the division. Last time I checked, Eli dominated 3 out of the 4 teams in the AFC West last year, so dont make it seem their division held much resistance.

And I really wouldnt say Rivers shitted on us last year. Yes, he had a really nice drive to win the game and he deserved props for that, but it wasnt exactly a great 4 quarter performance from him.

He is a good QB, worth of a 6-9 range in the NFL. But top 5 he is not.

as a whole, and hes shat on virtually every division hes played collectively. To paint him out as someone who just beefs up on the AFC West is beyond absurd. His numbers against the AFC West are actually less impressive than they are against the rest of the NFL

Secondly, you again have no clue what winning entails and how much of it starts from the top. There is a reason why Eli Manning did not want any part of SD. Maybe you can revisit the Rivers contract negotiations in 04, or the handling of Vincent Jackson and McNeil, as well as the handling of several others, if you want a clue on why Eli and daddy did everything in their power not to have Eli put into this situation that you see as so beneficial

West has nothing to do with how Rivers plays against other teams in the NFL. My opinion is that the teams in the AFC west pretty much sucked when Rivers played, making it easy for him to win the division every year.

If he played in the AFC East, Central, or NFC East - he would have to fight for a playoff spot. I think he won the division one year at 8-8. The one year the AFC West had competitive teams, the Chargers couldnt win it.

Again, never once did I say he wasnt good. I feels he is overrated. In all honesty, what reasons would you give to trade Eli for Rivers? I would think not many people in the Giant organization would do that straight up.

Quote:

Terps MarshallOnMontana : 1/23/2011 11:15 pm I dont know what to say other than you are simply wrong. I wouldn't be knocking either Manning in a similar situation Also as an aside, the way every game thread, and every thread about any QB always comes back to Eli Manning here is getting beyond fucking absurd.

That's what you posted less than two days ago on this very thread. Now a thread that was largely about Cutler, is now another Eli debate.

Just saying.

with respect to Eli, or QBs...

'BBI is biased...'

'if you were to ask other fans, they'd say'

Just curious - does BBI somehow own the patent on bias? Or are those other fans biased as well? And if they're biased, why are we asking them what they think again?

You have a fair point, but ill also say 2 things...

1. Eli was brought up in relation to me on this thread unsolicited which is what made me make that comment in the first place

2. I was talking in response to a statement that i was cutler's biggest fan, which mainly stems from me taking the position that hes on roughly the same tier as Eli, and given that its fairly obvious that i address that

Quote:

Sanchez for his intensity, desire, professionalism, ability to handle the NYC media, his desire to improve constantly and for the fact his future in unlimited.

If you replace "Sanchez" with "Eli", that's the consensus view of Eli Manning after, say, the 2005 season: we (this includes me) loved Eli's potential but were often citing intangibles and immeasurables rather than statistical facts.

are yous not a giantz fan?

Eli Manning's perception on a Giants website is not going to be in line with the perception of Eli from the general NFL fan.

He is viewed here in a light that hes viewed no where else. You could say the same about many QBs in relation to their own fanbase. Where else would you find 80% of a pool of people to say Sanchez > Ryan and Flacco other than a Jets website? (link posted before)

It is what it is.

what are the QBs on Eli's tier?

I assume its something like Eli, Cutler, Schaub and Ryan (with Carson Palmer having potential to get back here, but hasn't shown it in a while) -- but would like some clarification.

thanks

The top tier: Brady and Peyton
Next tier: Brees, Ben, Rodgers
3rd Tier: Eli, Rivers, Ryan, and maybe Vick (hate putting him here, but he was awesome this year.)
4th Tier: Cutler, Flacco, Romo, Schaub, and Freeman.

I wouldn't put Schaub on Eli's tier. Id lump him on a general tier with guys like Romo and Cutler. Still in the top 1/3 of the league. Id probably take Eli ahead of both of them, but i think hes much closer to those guys than the Rodgers, Ben's, Rivers, let alone older brother and Brady

i'd throw him on Eli's tier too

Sanchez, Freeman, Ryan, Flacco or especially Bradford with these guys yet because they are all still on their growth curves

to accurately compare that group with the vets

Of that group though I think Bradford and Freeman have the biggest upside, even more than Matt Ryan. Time will tell

if fanbases are biased, why do we value their opinions? Why do they matter in these debates?

If we're willing to discount local opinions (and I'm not staying they're unbiased), why do we value or consider others' opinions when it's clear that they're biased as well?

to make comparisons across QB's, without very high possibilities of bias (not a personal bias) and inaccuracies in your conclusions.

Makes it that much harder to rank QB's.

The bias im talking about revolves around the QB on their specific team. I think all fanbases are biased to a degree when it comes to their own players, but not so much when discussing a race in which they don't own a dog. All im saying is Eli talk on a Giants website doesn't look the same as Eli talk elsewhere. The same could be said for almost any team and their QB.

So you think BBI's opinion of Cutler is unbiased?

I should be impressed by general consensus opinions of rankings of NFL QBs by the national fan base?

Okay.

Most NFL fans on the national level don't know the difference between a draw and a trap if they're both run out of shotgun formation. I include some of the "experts" posting on this thread in that statement.

I think I'll go with what I see.

that playing for an organization that refuses to sign its starting left tackle and #1 wide receiver merely to win contractual pissing contests is probably not conducive to quarterback success, good weather notwithstanding.

im talking about everyone. The entire world outside of BBI or maybe Giants.com

This is a website where less than 1% of the actual Giants fan base, who is die hard enough to sign up for a handle to read/post for news about the Giants on a regular basis comes together. Its fair to say, that this group, which is a Giants fan fringe group, holds a perception on Eli that is not generally shared by not only fans, but players, coaches, management level people alike

Now either die hard Giants fans know better than everyone else, or they're biased. You can draw either conclusion you want, but one seems entirely more likely

not as die hard as those on this board, I'm gonna go ahead and assume that yea, some of these die hards know better.

This is not to say that all non-die hards are clueless, hardly the case. I know a few casual fans that know what they're looking at much better than some 'die hards'.

Really, it's a matter of people, perspective, and intelligence level. Some people actually understand the game of football, a fuck ton of people don't.

Quote:

All im saying is Eli talk on a Giants website doesn't look the same as Eli talk elsewhere.

To be fair, they aren't analyzing him with the same depth or attention. Discrediting views here simply because their coming from Eli's corner, so to speak, is a disservice to the thought put into a lot of the analysis. Homerism is inevitable, but so long as you can distinguish it, a lot can be gleaned from the discussion.

Who think Sanchez is better than Ryan and Flacco? Is it because they know Sanchez better than everyone and know better than those who maybe watch him on an every-now-and-then basis?

Could this be also said for every fan base who has a different view of their QB than everyone else?

Or is it only true in the case of Giants fans, because we are special?

it's worth consideration at the very least.

self aggrandizing tone on threads like these. seems to me, that the intent is to start a circle jerk about how great our QB is while piling on the other guy and minimizing his ability as if he were some mere journeyman.

the same analysis people here use when talking about Eli

Hes won more playoff games than Ryan, much in the same way Eli has won more than Rivers. He can handle the NY media better (totally speculative and unproveable), focus on intangible qualities and try to hype the shit out of, and quantify things that are by definition not tangible

.

that both of these guys have shared similar criticism at one point. asked for a trade, poor body language, not showing enough leadership...all of that stuff is baseless and unfair. i'd rather hear someone just flat out say they don't like the guy. it saves a lot of time.

Quote:

Its fair to say, that this group, which is a Giants fan fringe group, holds a perception on Eli that is not generally shared by not only fans, but players, coaches, management level people alike

Certainly, if our management believed Eli was in the #10-12 overall QB range, as you say consensus sees Eli, then i don't think Eli would be (forget exact #) ~$115 million richer these days.

and I will say it again, I dont think Cutler could string 3-4-5 consecutive in playoff like games. I dont think he makes the best decisions and relies on his arm to much to make plays.

Its hard to win a SB when your QB turns it over too much. Last year he led the league in red zone INTs, I think a defense can get inside his head, and I dont know how smart of a QB he is.

Million dollar arm, ten cent head.

I don't agree with that. They made him the highest paid player in the NFL at the time, do you think it was because they feel he was the BEST player in the NFL? We all know why he was signed to the extension and why it was worth it even if he was in that 9-12 range. An upper 1/3 tier QB is still valuable and if the Giants didn't give him that money someone else would have, and then that leaves the Giants in a position of having to replace a QB that they might not be able to do for a decade

See, even if i don't think quite as highly of Eli as many do here, i still grant that the guy is an asset that we are in many ways LUCKY to have (that is if you can divorce it from the fact that we could have had Ben or Rivers instead, but at this point thats water under the bridge)

Quote:

(that is if you can divorce it from the fact that we could have had Ben or Rivers instead, but at this point thats water under the bridge)

Some fans feel that had we drafted either of the other qbs taken in the top ten picks in 04 this team would still automatically have their super bowl 42 win and more. That isn't how football works. Maybe the giants would have more super bowls, but you can't just plug in a player and expect the same results they had from their previous team.

I think a lot of the perception of Eli, both here and elsewhere, would be more in line if he hadn't have been in the draft that he was

There are two things that happen with Eli quite often....

Nationally, he can get unfairly judged by being compared to the QBs that the Giants passed over to acquire him, and with Ben and Rivers both being high elite guys, thats a tough standard to hold up to. Sometimes people do have a habit of forgetting that while he may not be Ben or Rivers hes still a very solid QB

Locally, (or more specifically, restricted to the realm of diehard Giants message boards) in addition the the general bias that comes into play with any fan base and their QB, people are sensitive to the above comparisons and resort to over the top defenses of Eli and denigrations of the others to paint Eli in a better light

I think that draft has made him a lightning rod of sorts, even putting aside his manipulation of it

I don't disagree with that and made that same point several times in the past. I don't think that means though in any way, that Eli is the better QB

I agree. I don't have any problems saying rivers or ROETH are better passers than Eli. I would say they may not be as significantly better than Eli as some would make it seem.

how would you play if someone busted your arm with a freaking bat?

because he has a turnstyle OL. I wouldn't trade any of our OL or WR's for Chicago's. Chicago didn't have any business being in the NFC championship game, but they made it, and a large part of that is due to the play of their QB. Let's not act like the rest of the team carried Cutler that far, it's a team game, and he's been more than instrumental for them getting as far as they did.

but as far as OL goes, Eli managed with the makeshift OL because he knows how to move around the pocket, same with Ben, there's probably others dealing with the OL shuffle too but my main point:

Cutler seems clueless to me in the pocket. I don't care what OL you give him, by nature of being himself, he's gonna get sacked or be pressured into turnovers because he simply has no feel for the pocket. It's painful to watch sometimes. His sheer athleticism will mask it on occasion but it can't mask it all the time.

It's god awful. He will make any OL look bad if given the chance. I wish I could say differently because I LOVE the guy's skillset.

As for chicago, with that defense, they had all the business in the world to be in the NFCC. That defense carried them and it's no shock that a defense that good could make the NFCC game. Would have been no less shocking if they made the SB, they were that good of a D.

But that's neither here nor there now.

You give jay too much credit and it's not worth the bandwidth. I won't go as far as saying he flat out sucks because his talent alone makes him not awful.

He's just missing way too much between the ears for me to ever think he'll be anything different than what he is now.

Take a gander at Cutler's sack totals when he was in Denver

I agree Cutler's pocket presence can be lacking at times, but its been compounded by a porous O line and Martz general desire to de-emphasize pass protection in his offense

IMO Chicago's OL is suspect. Can Cutler get rid of some throws quicker? sure he can. I just can't agree that Cutler's makes the OL look back when he got sacked 11 times in his last season in Denver.

Denver- 51 times sacked in 37 starts (pretty solid above average sack rate of 1.38 sacks taken per start)

Chicago- 87 times sacked in 31 starts (Double his Denver rate, taking 2.8 sacks per game and being the most sacked QB in the NFL the past 2 years)

.

and passing the ball almost 70% of the time.

They started winning because of a focus on the running game and because their defense held teams to very few scores.

Cutler was a part of getting to the Championship game, but once they lessened his burden, that's when they started winning.

To use an oft-used line by people on this thread - that isn't slighting him - it is what it is.....

but I'm not even talking about just sacks.

The shitty work he does in the pocket results in incompletions, bat downs, bad reads, sacks, hits, pressures, etc... Everything

If the sack totals are that low in Denver, my mind tells me that the OL was much better and masked his glaring deficiencies. Because that deficiency of his has been my biggest complaint about him (besides decision making) since he entered the league. Chicago's OL situation has simply brought the issue to a forefront.

Zero feel for what's happening around him, it's painful to witness.

We see what kind of effect pocket presence has every weekend when watching the top QBs play. They avoid sacks regularly and make completions more often than not because of those avoidances. These lines they play behind are flawed in many cases and give up pressures regularly. I guarantee Peyton/Brady/Brees/Rodgers would be sacked less than Jay behind that line.

Difference between cutler and those elite are the elite avoid the sack, find the throwing lane, and complete the passes they want on a regular basis.

Jay does not.

That's what my eyes tell me at least.

Cutler was still attempting 27.8 passes per game over the last 9 games of the season, he averaged 28.8 during that stretch where you arbitrarily decided they were relying on him too much

Given that most teams in cold weather cities generally pass less as the season goes on, im not sure there is any difference here worth talking about, especially when we're talking 1 attempt per game

that this ground game they relied so heavily on failed to even average 4 YPC and finished ranked 22nd in the NFL

just put a finger in the air to determine the 4-3 start. That's what they were when they started winning.

They also averaged 14 more offensive plays in the games you are talking about.

Again - Cutler was efficient, but it isn't exactly like he saddled the team up and rode them to glory.

unfortunately, forte is just really inconsistent between the tackles.

But damn, when you throw it to that guy? That guy is dangerous as fuck when you throw it to him.

Taylor should have been the starting back with forte playing the reggie bush role, imo.

They were at one point the last remaining unbeaten team in the NFL at 3-0. Granted, it was just 3 games, but they had success before "post 4-3". And i wouldn't lay much blame at the feet of Cutler for 2 of those 3 losses. The Skins game he flat out lost for them.

and just air it out like they're Kurt Warner. Biggest difference between those Rams teams and this Bears team is as simple as looking at guys like Faulk, Bruce, Holt, and Orlando Pace to Forte, Knox, Bennett, Hester, and Orlando Pace's rotting corpse last year.

that any shift toward throwing less was born more out of keeping Jay Cutler alive more than anything else, not a condemnation of his skills. When you get a guy sacked 10 times and concussed, maybe you shouldn't be throwing 40 times

Maybe after 2007, but not 2005. Fans on this site and in general were shitting on him.

this football season.

The entire Chicago offense was bad: quarterback, running back, offensive line, wide receivers, water boy, equipment manager.

This is cold, hard fact. Pick your statistical measure: Chicago's offense sucked by any metric and all of its participants are reflected in this.

I think he's capable of more than he showed this year, but to deny how bad he was is to ignore reality in favor of an analysis divorced from results.
Keep scrolling... Cutler's down there - ( New Window )

see im not real big on football outsiders "innovative" ways when those ways yield results like McNabb, Henne, Vince Young, Sanchez > Cutler this season.

Or that Eli Manning and Chad Henne were comparable at all this season, as they appeared to be on the list

that the WRs for the Bears arent good. I really like Knox, I think he has pretty good potential. Bennett will be a solid receiver and him and Cutler have a great connection. Hester is a playmaker. Now those three arent as good as the Giants receivers, but they arent chop liver.

Throw in the fact that I would trade a 2nd rounder for Olsen, who is being under utilized in that offense.

Even taking a wholly dim view of their methodology, giving Cutler the benefit of "well they might be off by EIGHT spots" still means he was an atrocious 22nd in per-play efficiency.

Cutler's performance this year was bad. I'm not sure how anyone could watch and disagree.

Now this isn't to ignore the extenuating circumstances: his OL was awful, his rushing offense was awful, I don't think his receiving corps is very good. But he wasn't having some very good season derailed by the failures around him. He contributed to those failures. If you want to point to what contributed more, different discussion entirely, and I'd likely agree if anyone says "His OL SUCKS" as being the primary reason for Chicago's offensive woes. But Cutler joined the problem.

Go browse ESPN if you like; the only statistic remotely kind to Cutler is (amusingly) QB Rating, and that places him a dead average 16th amongst 31 QBs with the necessary number of pass attempts to qualify.
Link - ( New Window )

You buy into those stats?

Replacement Value? Exactly how do they measure how others would play behind the Bears OL with the Martz play calling? Like many things on that site those rankings are a joke.

They changed the play calling and blocking and he played MUCH better after the rough start.

They won 7 out of 8 at the end of the year to lock up the #2 seed. He had 16 Tds only 6 picks. And he stepped up big against quality opponents. He was the difference in wins against the Jets and Eagles for CHI.

It would be difficult to name a team with less talent at WR.

Bennett will be solid? Sure he will.

He has nobody that can win when the ball is in the air. Knox and Hester have speed. They can make some plays. But you can't name 5 teams with less talent at WR.

1. rams
2. bucs
3. panthers, even with steve smith.
4. redskins
5. Browns
6. Raiders
7. titans
8. seahawks

Theres 8, and teams like Denver, Miami (one man show), buffalo, Jags, 49ers (well Vernon Davis trumps everyone) are debatable.

because people so often criticize a number for not doing more when the number never claims to do what the person making the critique says.

Replacement-level = what the league average performance from a player at X position this year, based on numbers (not attempting to make the subjective determinations you bring up nor claiming capable of doing so) is.

What so often happens is someone posts a measurement that contradicts a previously held opinion, and the number itself is criticized for not doing X or Y or Z, when it only claims to measure A and nothing more. How can they determine what a Matt Cassel would do in the Martz offense? Well, they can't, and they don't try to. Does that then imply the number is worthless? Of course not; it means it's not perfect.

Cutler trended upward towards the end of the season. Congratulations to him. The rest of that season isn't simply forgotten, tossed by the wayside as irrelevant.

I think the extenuating circumstances have to be more taken into account than the obligatory "yea, but....."

Also, QB rating isn't the only conventional number that reflected decently on him, he was also 6th in the NFL in YPA behind Rivers, Rodgers, Ben, Vick and Brady

I am not saying they are great, but each brings something to the table. I dont think they are horrendous like many here do. And I absolutely love Olsen. I think he and Eli would be nasty together.

have excellent young receivers and a very talented TE, they don't belong on that list. Mike Williams just had one of the better rookie seasons in NFL history

Apologies. Point stands nonetheless.

The extenuating circumstances exist for the entire offense. The OL was bad, giving Cutler no time to throw and making Martz look like a moron. Martz kept calling seven step drops, putting his OL and Cutler in bad spots where protection was needed for too long. Cutler was holding onto the ball too long and generally making bad decisions, reflecting poorly on his OL and on Martz.

It's not a "yea but" in the slightest: a calamity of shitty play was happening for Chicago. I simply don't buy the argument that Cutler wasn't part of his team's offensive struggles for most of the season (and the season on the whole). Credit to them for turning it around relatively late, but there's nothing about that last stretch that suggest that is the real Bears offense, and the rest of the season is ignored.

Forget great. I'm saying worst in the NFL or close to it. DO you have a team with less talent at WR?

I'm higher on Cutler's ability and prospects going forward than the BBI Consensus View.

And that's not to say Chicago is therefore good; but the Rams make the Bears unit look good by comparison.

If it weren't for fantasy football, most people wouldn't be able to name a single Rams WR (Donnie Avery was out all season).

In other words half the season.

And his play in DEN does suggest he is that type of player and more.

Nothing I said disagrees with that, implicitly or explicitly.

I jsut listed 8 teams that I feel have less talent than the Bears at WR.

Maybe the Rams.

Williams and Knox had roughly the same yards, Williams had 11 TDs though, so obvious WIlliams edged him in that category.

I like WInslow, but I also like Olsen. After the Bucs top two receivers, they didnt have one get 400 yards receving (1 WR and 1 TE). Compared to the Bears who had 5 different guy with over 400 yards receiving (3 WR, a TE, and a RB.)

Thats another thing about the Bears receiving corps.... Forte is one of the best backs out of the backfield.

Massoqui led their receivers with 400 yards receiving, no other receiver was close.

The Seahawks, panthers, titans, and raiders belong on that list as much as the rams do.

Cutler was a big part of the improvement in the Bears offense for the last HALF of the season. I would expect him to continue to play closer to that level next year. And that would add up to a Bears offense that is closer to the team at the end of the year.

looks like a beast. Based on him alone id take their WRs over the Bears. Were it not for Randy Moss's unreal 1998 rookie campaign, Williams 11 TDs this year would have been the most by an NFL rookie WR since 1978

make inference on a subject, such as the QB's effectiveness in the league, and you are missing variables highly correlated with QB effectiveness, like Football Outsiders does, it makes me question their numbers.

Unfortunately, many of the variables that are needed are unobservable or not quantifiable in any meaningful way. Thus, any numbers are likely to be biased, and could potentially show an effect that is not there (or that is confounded in so many ways, what appears to be a simple "marginal effect" may in fact be a "total effect").

That, and other things that irk me about that site, make me question its validity.

and Benn has tremendous potential.

Lets be hesitant with Williams though, we all should remember the last time a rookie WR for them had a great rookie year....

He was picked off the street and played for the Giants this year!! haha....

I think there are interesting things footballoutsiders brings to the table, but in general, i agree. Their overall rankings at times just seem to not pass the smell test

That list is wrong. Try again. For starters...CAR, WAS, TEN? Are you kidding me? They all have one thing CHI doesn't....a legit #1 WR.

I was discussing Jay Cutler's season this season, solely this season, without looking at next season or the prior season, making any predictions or describing his career.

My point was simple. He played better (as in, around the upper third of the NFL) to end the season. He played very poorly for at least 50%, if not more, of the season. If you're looking at this season to say he played well, it's putting too much emphasis (and thus coming in with bias regarding the player) on the good and ignoring the bad. This season. This season only.

I am taking the WR core as a group. And even though you think Britt is a legit number 1 (let him stay healthy and not drop so many balls), Nate Washington is not starting over Knox, Hester, or Bennett. Throw in Olsen and its not close. The same thing could be said with Carolina. Their receivers after Smith are weak. And Smith cant stay healthy anymore.

Moss is on his last legs for Washington and Armstrong is on par with the rest of the Bears receivers.

Context the numbers can't account for and subjective analysis is applied after for a more accurate picture. They're not even rankings; unless you consider QB Rating to be a ranking and not simply a list of QBs organized for one statistic.

I posted it because it's the darkest portrait of Cutler this season, not because it's hyper-accurate. The entire point is that one objective criteria thought he played THAT badly. It's not wrong because "well, he didn't, so there" and it's not right because "that's what the numbers say!"

People who dislike various stats tend to read more into them than the people who enjoy looking at them.

Well the good outweighs the bad.

He played very good ball when they won 7 of 8 to win the #2 seed. That trumps the first half of the Giants game and a couple of other losses.

"there's nothing about that last stretch that suggest that is the real Bears offense"

The QBs play which was on par with what he did for years in DEN. That suggests this is the real Bears offense.

If Cutler plays like that again (like he did in DEN) that is the BEars offense or more likely they'll improve in 2011.

They claim that "the more events to analyze, the stronger the statistical significance".

That's just flat out wrong.

And I rarely ever read into stats, or, at most, use them to support observations that I'm already pretty good on, without using them.

but the worst in the NFL? That's hyperbole. Knox and Olsen are good receivers.

Washington has a "bonified #1" ?? Who, Santana Moss? C'mon...

anyway, it is hard to judge how good WR corps are since the QB is such a big part of how productive they end up being. My sense is with a bonified pro QB Crabtree/49ers would be a stud in this league, but what's he shown anybody so far?

I said the Bears offense there. That includes the OL, RB, WRs, etc. This is a matter of disagreement: I'm not sure what about the second half of the season's improvement in pass blocking should lead me to believe that's the reality, and that the first half was just struggle in the past. There's nothing to suggest either half of football from the OL is the proper indicator! We won't know this until next season.

I think Cutler played a bad season the whole. I also think, as I've said above and have had people (such as the thread starter) remind me in a critical way, pretty positively of Cutler. I think he'll play better next season provided that the OL isn't a sieve. I'm just judging that based on his talent level though.

kicker, I'm sure they mean that in the advertising sense ("we're the shit buy our stuff!"), but isn't that also just... basic? The more events, the more data, the larger the sample size, etc., the greater chance of statistical significance in the results?

Not close? Your right. Edge to the other teams with the #1 WRs.

And Nate Washington has done a lot more in the NFL than Bennett. And he's much faster.

Earl Bennett? You need to drop that name from your argument.

THat was a big factor.

There was no miracle improvement in one on one blocking for the Bears. They saw the QB getting rocked and they changed their approach. My guess is they don't go back to getting hiim rocked every game.

I'm pretty sure I agree with that KWALL, but he's the wildcard... though I'd like to think he's smart enough that the chances of reverting back to the first half's offensive playcalling are slim.

No. The more data, the closer you are to realizing what the true "data" look like. Nothing to do with statistical significance.

Consider the simple thought exercise. You flip a coin 10 times. You are likely to see something like 8 heads, 2 tails (runs are common). You now have evidence that your coin has statistical significance of it being assymetrical (or a trick coin). However, you bump up the number of flips to a billion. You will probably get a 50/50 split. Your significance goes away.

It all depends on what you're testing significance for, which is why it's poorly worded. The opposite of the significance will not be significant.

Maybe it's semantics, but it's those things that make me wonder what they are thinking.

It may be. Not definitively (not even close). It could be a lot of noise early on in the data that is providing the significance, which will go away with time (i.e., is Eli's INT's noise, or an significant).

Olsen plays TE. This was about WR.

caught 90+ passes. 90+? That isn't a number 1 any more?

He's better than anything on CHI right now.

feel that statistics in football are very problematic, and should be treated with child's gloves.

I had a follow-up question but it was semantics related too and thus a total time waster. Night.

we are talking about a QB's receiving options, and Olsen is a damn good one. So is Forte by the way.

If you think Santana Moss is a bonified #1 WR I dont know what to tell you. He was good 5 years ago though.

Just general grumpiness, and sometimes focusing too much on non-essential things.

Who has the worst collection of talent at that position in the NFL?

THe Bears would get plenty of votes in that poll

I definitely take Knox over Santana Moss

guy is 24 yrs old, 2nd year, averaged 19 ypc, nearly 1,000 yards receiving this year playing in the Windy City.

And the guy calling the plays doesn't know how to use a TE.

WAS? They have some TE Talent. I didn't bring that up. Same is true for TEN.

not really sure how good Bo Scaife is, but I love Kenny Britt so whatever.

He's probably 7-8 yrs younger. But Moss caught twice as many balls LAST YEAR.

wasn't playing with Cutler!

are in the running for least talented WR unit in the league. No question about it. You want to put WAS in there. OK. BTW, the #2 in WAS had a higher avg per catch than Knox.

but they could use a target that could go up and down the passing tree and be effective running a variety of different routes. Knox is almost strictly a deep threat, and someone who is fairly usesless when the team is in the redzone and his speed doesn't have to be respected. Hester isn't even a real WR, his route running is terrible, hes just a guy they want to get on the field somehow because he is explosive. But this was a college DB if im not mistaken

Its also hard to judge some of these guys who have little experience playing with anyone outside of Cutler. Look at Eddie Royal with Cutler, seemed like a good weapon to boast. Look at Eddie Royal now without Cutler. And it was figured that Royal would fit perfectly in that Welker role in McDaniels offense

1) He didnt catch twice as many balls. He caught 90 vs 50.

2) The difference in yards was only 140 i believe. Moss is a possession receiver these days vs Knox a deep threat, so....

3) Its not like Moss had some slouch throwing to him. McNabb wont make the HoF but he's deserving of consideration.

Anyway, I'll agree the Skins and Bears are similarly talented at WR (and TE). The Bears have the much better receiving back, but its close i guess.

If I'm looking at rosters, SEA, STL, CAR (how many games did Steve Smith even play this year, and he's obviously lost several steps), JAX, OAK, CLE have less talent at WR.

One could argue Denver (despite decent stats due to their system and the fact that they would go down by 20+ points most weeks) and maybe even New England--though its hard to prove the last one given the Hall of Fame QB that has made David Givens and Deion Branch look like all-pros in the past.

caught 93!

And he had McNabb and Rex Grossman. Both QBs were a mess this year.

up why the Bears made a deep run this year. They were a Top 5 team in terms of health, had Urlacher and Peppers playing injury-free and they were a very solid defensive team.

They were in the top 10 in points and yards allowed on D and ranked lower than 20th in points, yards, passing yards, and rushing yards on offense.

Going on and on regarding cutler obscures the defense's performance, which was far and wide the biggest factor in their successful year.

.

I complimented you.

their combined QB rating was 79 this year. Cutler's was 86.

Washington attempted 605 passes this year; Chicago attempted 466. Washington had the 4th most pass attempts in the league this season.

Washington YPA = 7.0; Chicago = 7.3

Poor Santana Moss....

Prior to Moss' 93 catches this year -- his catch totals were 70, 79, 61, 55 in the prior 4 years. Which year strikes you as the outlier?

Sorry, but I'm just not buying Santana Moss as a bonified #1, and he's not better than what's on the Bears roster.

with some of the worst QB'ing you'll ever see in your life, so the Bears QBR for the season was actually only 79.5 versus 78-79 for the Redskins

but how many teams really make it to the conference championship game just on the strength of having a stud QB? no one said Cutler carried Chicago there, he was more than instrumental in helping them get there.

Was relying on past memory. I see it now though, thanks.

SuperBowl.

and that's exactly why I said what I said.

.

But he didn't need to throw that inteception in the endzone in the last game of the season.

the Bears ranked 20th or lower in the major offensive categories. If that reflects Cutler being instrumental in helping them get the the championship game with a 28th ranked passing attack, then I think we differ on the meaning of instrumental.

Meanwhile, their D was a top 10 D.

Moss is a FA this year. The NFL will tell you HE IS BETTER than anything on the Bears roster when he gets his pay day.

The guy had one of the best years of his career. 93 and 1100+. Right now he's better than the limited games Hester and Knox bring to the table.

Moss and Armstrong produced close to 2000 yards. That's the 3rd most yards of any starting WRs in the NFL.

was one of the greatest players to ever play the game. So was Jamarcus Russell and Joey Harrington.

Just glad our Giants arent the ones paying up for a guy coming off a career year on a team that passed the ball over 600 times last year... 4th most in the entire league.

Again, 7.0 ypa for Washington, 7.3 ypa for Chicago. And I'm not convinced Cutler is light-years better than McNabb. I know McNabb disappointed, but up until this year he was considered one of the best QBs in the league, and has certainly been a thorn in our side the entire decade.

Whether Santana Moss is better than any Bears WR or he's a legit #1?

I'd say a million times yes to #1 and no to #2. He's just not the player he was a couple of years ago and he scares no one. He is however more complete of a player than any WR on the Bears.

based off of offensive rankings, that's not looking close enough at the parts around him. If you have one of the worst OL's, and WR's in the league, you're most likely not going to look like you're Tom Brady.

sounds like you agree with KWALL on #1 (which may be true -- though my bet is Knox is perceived to be better within a year or two), and you agree with me on #2.

Its not that difficult to put up decent (not even great by any stretch) stats when your team throws the ball over 600 times in a season.

your receiving corp probably isn't very good.

Season long stats don’t tell the story. They had major issues with play calling and the OL early. There was a mid season change with the Bears approach on offense this year. The offense was different after game 6 or 7. They stopped throwing it 35+ a game. Cut it down to about 26 passes a game and they won 7 out of 8.

Cutler was instrumental in locking up the #2 seed during this 8 game stretch. He played very well. He scored 7 TDs in high scoring and very close wins vs the Jets and Eagles.

It’s better than a WR unit with Knox as the #1.

Cutler isn't good. I said that the Bears were primarily in the championship game due to their good health and outstanding defensive play.

You want to say that Cutler was instrumental in getting them there and I disagree. I also think saying that their OL and WR's are terrible shows a lack of noticing the improvement both units had later in the year(probably due to their good health)

weeks 1-7-30 passes per game
Weeks 8-17-28 passes per game

yes it is.

I'm not so sure he has the mobility to survive what Jay did this season. He took a lot of sacks, but he also extended a lot of plays with his legs. Not many QB's can stand up to that type of duress and only miss one game.

Jets, Eagles and Cowboys

You can attribute one loss to him - Washington. I obviously didnt see the 2nd GB game -- he couldnt have played well, but maybe the GB defense was just on fire that day, I dont know.

Other than that, there were games he played poorly - New England, Seattle, vs us... but the whole team did.

He played well in his two games vs Minnesota, the first Detroit game, and Buffalo.

He managed the game vs Miami and 2nd game vs Detroit.

Good year, but nothing extraordinary.

1.Nobody paid those QBs after one NFL snap.
2.Haynesworth was one of the best players in the NFL but his off the field issues are the problem.

Despite his age, Moss will get paid this year because he can make plays as a WR.

Knox has potential. He's fast. But I'd wager he will never have a year like Moss just did in 2010.

If you have to win right now, you go with Moss and Armstong at WR over that crew in CHI.

in games before the 8 game streak: 34
During the 8 game streak: 26

exclude the Carolina game from your analysis on passes per game. They only had washed-up Collins throw ~12 times in that game... i think he ended up throwing for 30 yards and 2 picks in a win in which their defense and Forte carried them.

Worst game i've seen frmo a QB in a win since Flacco's game at New England in the playoffs the year before.

NFL free agency is a very efficient process. Guys never get overpaid, what was i thinking.

I'm taking Knox over Moss. I also don't think Moss will see the kind of action in FA that you think he will.

I did not include Carolina. I just looked at Cutlers game log and...

Weeks 1-7-30 passes per game
Weeks 8-17-28 passes per game

in pretty passes. He does throw some pretty passes and he makes it look effortless.

? i had this guy as my fantasy QB so i'm pretty on top of his performances -- it does seem like he threw the ball a lot more in the 1st half of the season.

Let me fix it and take out the giants game.

Weeks 1-7(excluding Giants game)-34 passes per game
Weeks 8-17-28 passes per game

that's pretty damn impressive -- 14/21, 245 yards, 4 TDs, 0 picks.

...is what I have to say.

does tell you how the real experts value a player.

And it will tell you that Moss is still a valuable WR.

This idea that Knox is a better player right now is ridiculous.

but he probably will be soon enough.

KWALL hasnt admitted that the Bears WR corps is better than Browns!!!

Just admit it already!

to the Browns. I'll put them below the Bears. So we have one team.

Last 16 Regular Season games he finished:

12 wins - 4 losses
3800+ yards 31TDs 16INTs
Another 250 rushing and a TD

Bills?

Raiders?

Maybe 2.

Now stop!

near the bottom regardless. Good pass receiving back and TE though.

Seahawks, jags, 49ers, panther....

but who can argue that they're in the bottom 1/4 of the league.

continues to swing and miss.

with the worst WR's. The point remains that that corps doesn't help Jay out compared to a team with average WRs.

Is deeper than Detroit, arz, Kansas city, and Miami where its one stud and rest scrubs.

Receivers aren't better. And san Francisco has one decent one.

dep. Just give up. You lose.

is a man beast.

one finding it ironic that there is an argument about how poor the Bears OL and WR's are, yet whenever people say the Giants had an injured OL and were starting street FA's at WR that David in LA and KWALL say it is just giant fans making excuses for Eli?

This thread has turned in a funny direction.

St. Louis receivers are not good. Seattles best receiver had two tds. And outside crabtree, wr has zilch at the position.

Keith we aren't including tight ends.

because TE's are apart of the passing game.

so i have no idea what you're referring to, or you might have me confused with someone else.

I just jumped in late. I have no horse in this race.

that i attributed the Giants problems with turnovers to those very same things (revolving door OL, WR, and transitioning with new position coaches). you just can't seem to admit that these two QB's have shared very similar criticism and might be closer to eachother than you might want to accept.

What's funny is your need to make sh1t up.

I never said anything about street WRs for the Giants, fans making excuses for Eli, or anything close to it.

shit on bbi. :)

KWALL asked to find teams that had worst receiving corps than the Bears, because I think they are better than people give them credit for. I gave him 8 teams, and of course he dismissed the majority of them. We werent talking TEs, thats why we leave Olsen out of the convo.

There is no way the Bears receiving corps are worse than the Browns, Raiders, St. Louis, Seahawks, Jax, Panthers....

And I believe they are deeper than teams with one stud receiver like Detroit, SF, KC, and Wash (Moss was made into a stud in this thread, so I will add them.)

I think the Bears receiving core is underrated. I think they rank somewhere in the middle of the pack rather than one of the worst in the league.

Fatman with the TKO.

but who else do they really have that puts them in the middle of the pack?

with the hummer.

I have a gun to your head. I'm telling you that you need to win 8 games next season of you will die. You have your choice of the following WR corps to choose from. Remember your life is on the line, rank your picks:

1. Bears
2. Lions
3. Dolphins
4. Panthers
5. 49ers

and Hester can make a big play. I think they all bring something to the table.

Now I wouldnt trade for them for the Giants receivers, but I think they are underrated. You have to realize that Olsen and Forte are very good as well, so overall its not too bad of a group.

fatman insinuated that there's irony based off a position i'm positive i've never made.

1. Lions (Calvin Johnson trumps everyone.)
2. Bears
3. Dolphins (Marshall was so disappointing this year.)
4. 49ers (Crabtree then.....)
5. Panthers (Smith is always dinged and on the decline, then who?)

Bears are last on that list and there is no debate about it.

You are taking the Bears over Marshall and Bess? That's insanity.

and maybe the Panthers.

Marshall also had a terrible year because Chad Henne was throwing. If Cutler were a dolphin, I'm pretty sure he'd be able to get him the ball more often, since he's already done that in Denver.

but I would have to think about it cause I would need to take into consideration on how bad Henne was too.

I dont know how much better Bess is than Bennett and Hester.

then you should include Vernon Davis as well.

Sure he's a little immature, but don't you think part of his problem was the Chad's? Besides their terrible offensive strategy, their QB play was awful.

You take Steve Smith and Crabtree vs the entire Bears WR unit. You don't need anything else.

I brought up Olsen and I brought up Davis.

Hester's a nice vertical threat, and a toy for screens, but how many other routes does he run compared to Davone Bess?

David, I forgot Henne stunk this year at first.

I would absolutely take the Bears corps over the 49ers. Crabtree is good, but not all world. And who is their 2nd receiver? The Panthers receiving corp stinks, especially with Smith dinged up.

is that there are certain QB's in the league who get the benefit of the doubt around here.

When they fuck up, it is because of other factors. The WR's, the OL, whatever the case.

It's just humorous to me how passionate some people are at defending Cutler by having a multiple page argument on where their WR's rank. Of course, overlooking the fact they have one of the better pass catching TE's in the league and pass catching RB's in the league is bad enough, but now we're going on and on about the differences between them and the Browns, Panthers, Rams, etc.

Add to that the fact that the Bears OL, as mediocre as it was, had very little health turnover after the year started, Which is something most other teams couldn't say, and that is conveniently ignored.

I could take Cutler or leave him, but it is pretty funny watching people give the guy the amount of support they do, especially when the people doing it are ones who like to be "realistic" when looking at Eli.

It is what it is.

we are talking about who is better right now. Is Crabtree really that much better than Knox? I love Steve Smith, but besides him, they have nobody.

that was directed at dep

much better. Come on. Put him on the Giants and he's Nicks!

The guy provides a lot more for a QB.

as a 3rd receiver, he is a threat. He should have had two TDs agaisnt GB this past weekend if not for errant throws by Cutler.

Kwall, if you think Crabtree is so great, you are living off hype. And Smith is obviously declining. Good receivers dont trump a trio who were productive this year. A calvin Johnson type or a Dwayne Bowe types does. But not Michael Crabtree.... haha

Alex Smith and Troy Smith?

I know how good Vernon is. Kwall was speaking of WRs only. I know my one post included him and forte, but the debate is just WR only.

Crabtree is nowhere as good as Nicks. Come on man.... haha

Jay Cutler?

you beat me to it Keith.

you keep saying the Bears trio, but the 2 and 3 really aren't that good. I can understand an argument for the 49ers, but give me the dolphins 100 times out of 100.

Cutler's good.

that's hard to prove, but it's not nearly as far fetched as Alex Smith or Troy Smith, or even Chad Henne.

their 2 and 3 are ok to good. Not great. More I think of it, I would take Miami's too....

But Hester with an accurate QB last week, would have been the player of the week. He beat some good corners, but Cutler couldnt get him the ball.

He's a weapon because of how dangerous he is with the ball, but he's just not a great receiver.

We could have used Hester when Smith and Nicks went down, no one would have complain with him being our 3rd receiver. Of course, we would havea good PR too!

...

but when he is on the field, you have to take that into account.

Hes a poor man's Mario. Not a great route runner, dumb as fuck, but exciting when he gets it.

Mario is just better than him..... and yes people I know its not even close. They are just similar.

get the benefit of the doubt around here?

Eli? And who else?

Cutler has fan club on BBI? I don't see it. People have an opinion on a football player and post about it. Big deal. The same things that amuse you about this thread are the same things you use in your posts about football players isn't it?

There are factors when ranking or evaluating players such as the surrounding cast, play calling, injuries, etc. I sure as hell don't use them for one guy and call it "making excuses" for another.

If people brought up street WRs for Eli I would have said that was a legitimate factor with his play. I have no idea if they did. I have no idea if there was a thread on it. I never saw it. But I sure as hell did not say it was another excuse for Eli fans. So basically you're full of sh1t with that last post.

is an athlete who really has little business playing WR. Even his explosiveness doesn't translate to the position all that much as he averaged a fairly pedestrian 11.9 YPC this year. Hes not a great route runner, he also has trouble tracking the ball in the air over his shoulder and making plays on deep balls, you could put together a laughable career highlight reel on his attempts to do just that. Anyone remember the deep bomb he dropped against us in 07 from Grossman with no one around him?

He's probably the worst receiver in the NFL to start 12 or more games this year

sure we could have used a hester on special teams, but IMO he wouldn't have even displaced Barden on the depth chart when he was healthy.

Quote:

Cutler has fan club on BBI? I don't see it

There are people who have held Cutler in high regard since he had a strong arm at Vandy.

Everytime we have a debate on where QB's rank, Cutler is always a lengthy discussion.

If you don't see it, you aren't seeing many of the threads.

is that neither is good enough to be a top 2 receiver on their respective teams right now. Oh yeah, and they are both black. Other than that, where is the comparison?

has spun.

Very basically, Cutler isn't a nice guy so he's not getting the benefit of the doubt from anyone. His body language was poor, and he didn't have any ice or crutches or whatever on the sideline.

That said, it doesn't mean he wasn't hurt. Questioning a guy's toughness is a big deal in sports and shouldn't be done lightly.

Hester started 13 games this season, started 25 of Cutlers 31 starts as a Bear

Sadly, he was good enough to be one of the top 2 WR on his team

I also happen to think MM blows him out of the water but thats neither here nor there

my bad.

Some think he's better than others. With this guy and a few others opinions vary quite a bit. That's the fan club.

There are some who like his game. And plenty of more who won't give him credit for much. I'd say with QBs that's been the case on BBI for years.

Same with Rothlisberger, Rivers, and plenty more over the years. Some think BR is a first ballot HOF...others think he's overrated. Nothing new here.

happened when the threadstarter on this thread called out Cutler for wanting to get traded after he heard McDaniels was floating him around on the trade block. I got dragged into this, because I had an issue with how he was diminishing Cutler based on W/L record and never even winning in Vanderbilt (not a great program in a very tough conference). I think it's asinine to entertain the notion of trading your starting QB when he's 25, and also coming off of an excellent season (4500 yards, least sacked QB in the league). When you trade starting QB's, you don't get any farther than where you started from. Fast forward to now, Denver's taken a step back, and might have to find a starter since the new coach might not be a Tebow guy.

Cutler, like many others, was talked about a lot on BBI before the draft.

Pre-draft, QBs get a lot of talk on BBI. Some of us liked his college game. There were 3 QBs in that draft and there was a lot of talk about Cutler,Leinart and Young. With some of the smart ones calling Cutler the best pro prospect of the bunch,

forward with Tebow. Fox loves to run the football and set up 3rd and manageable. Well Tebow on 3rd and 4 out of the shotgun is a real problem to deal with.

Like him or not, Tebow's coachable and will not be denied in terms of work ethic. I thought he showed a ton this year as a passer compared to what I expected. If they are willing to move him there should be a ton of teams looking to pick him up. The guy is a winner.

until the trade to Chicago happened. I just think it's extremely ironic to get on a guy for wanting out of Denver, when Eli told San Diego "thanks but no thanks". Now it's different that Eli did that on draft day, but we should keep in mind how important continuity is for a QB.

Cutler was promised they wouldn't change the scheme, McDaniels let Bates go, and started looking at Cassel. I'd be miffed too, especially if they were whispering sweet nothings to me that i was their guy and that they were looking forward to working with me.

Fatman pointed out the exact tone this conversation has taken. Go back and read through the 500 posts of the shit, particularly the last couple hundred. He is dead on.

to see what becomes of Orton in FA. He played better over the last couple of seasons than many expected, I think he played well enough to keep his job. But it doesn't look like thats going to happen. Some team is going to offer him good money to come play QB for them because hes the best of a relatively weak FA QB crop (at least among the guys who will actually be available, this discounting Peyton and likely discounting Vick)

San Fran would be a good spot for him IMO.

from what FMiC said. He seems to be of the belief that many on BBI are quick to excuse other QBs for failures while not granting Eli the same benefit of the doubt. Quite honestly, I think this is about as ass backwards as humanly imaginable. I think its the other way around.

If the head coach of the Chargers tells Eli NOT to go to the Chargers because the franchise is a disaster, I can't blame Eli for not going there.

Every drafted player entering the NFL has two options: sign with the team that drafted you or sit out a year (at great monetary risk) and enter the subsequent draft. Eli chose the latter. That he, as well advised a rookie prospect as has probably ever come into the league, risked a year off his career to avoid San Diego (and both the Chargers and Giants were 4-12 in 2003) should tell us something about their team.

I don't know why anyone would hold it against Eli as opposed to seeing it as a black mark against the Chargers.

Dead on? He's full of shit. Posted flat out BS. I called "street FA's and injured OL" as making excuses for Eli?

That's the KO? Wrong. That's the BS I'm talking about because it never happened.

with Cutler or Eli or anyone else trying to do whats in their power to write their own career path. But I think its disingenuous to have an issue with one and not the other

I also think Carson Palmer would have been better served going this route much earlier than he did, like on his draft day. It may have gotten messy but he wouldn't be searching for playoff win #1 8 years later

I never held it against Cutler to request a trade...I don't know what went on there in Denver.

Posting about some of the factors that effect QB play. This is the problem?

Plenty post about some of Eli's "issues" with comments about injuries, wrong routes, weather, play calling, and "Street FAs".

You can search the archives all day and not find one comment from me that these are people making excuses for Eli.

That guy's a fag!

You can call me Joe. And that was really more just a general statement, not really directed at you

Al.

.

can we officially declare Chicago the winner of the Cutler trade by KO? Denver has nothing to show for other than Demaryius Thomas and Robert Ayers.

Also got Knox who is now better than Santana Moss, Steve Smith, and Brnadon Marshall, and Michael Crabtree.

regardless of whether you think he's a wimp or if you think he's getting a raw deal, this is now a situation that is going to be present next time he takes the field for Chicago. Any amount of good will he built up with that city has been burned up, and his life there might become pretty difficult professionally.

It's not crazy to consider moving him if you're Chicago. I don't know about the salary ramifications, but unless something drastically good happens Cutler is going to get zero slack in that town. And let's face it they're not going to be a chic pick to go back to the NFC title game next year.

He's in a real bad spot.

Quote:

I think you could also take the opposite tact MarshallOnMontana : 3:57 pm from what FMiC said. He seems to be of the belief that many on BBI are quick to excuse other QBs for failures while not granting Eli the same benefit of the doubt. Quite honestly, I think this is about as ass backwards as humanly imaginable. I think its the other way around.

If anything, Eli gets trashed on BBI more than most players. From reading the posts about him, I saw very few people pointing out that eli set career highs in TD's and yards. But I saw a lot of posts talking about how his INT's were part of the "regression" we saw this year. I don't happen to think eli regressed. Eli's held to a different standard here and I understand why - he is the franchise. But it doesn't make it any less annoying.

It's a "team game" when guys like Rivers or Brees or Cutler fail, but it seems to be a fault of eli when he fails. That was my point. If that isn't true, why is there a debate about the perceived value of WR's on the Bears and if they are better than the Browns, Panthers, etc.?

hasn't had a QB in 30 years. They won't move him. He's flawed but pretty good with upside.

And he can play in tough conditions.

Once again...

Last 16 regular season games.

Over 4000 yards passing/rushing 32 TDs..16 Ints. And they went 12-4.

You don't move that and start over at QB.

maybe the ardent defense we have publicly seen from players brings them closer together. Its one thing to not throw someone under the bus, its another to be aggressive in your defense of him as several Bears were

This is also a guy who played a season with diabetes without knowing it, and lost 30 lbs over the course of the year, never missed a game or complained, until he was finally diagnosed.

we never had any debates on BBI about the impact of injuries, playing outdoors, and more when discussing Eli.

This doesn't happen. Only with other QBs. I got it now.

in that group that believes Eli has regressed. I've said earlier there's a myriad of reasons that can explain why we had so many turnovers. can we at least come to an agreement on my stance on Eli? if i were a betting man, i'd say Eli is likely to cut the number of picks significantly by next season.

unless you're a total dinkus like Josh McDaniels.

Cutler 2009 and Eli 2010 were almost mirror images of eachother

Look at the way BBI handled Cutler's year (maybe you don't recall) and look at the way Eli's year was handled (I believe by years end the number of INTs that were claimed as Eli's fault may have been dwindled down to like 2)

I don't think its possible to come to the conclusion that Eli is more harshly judged here than other QBs

Each time Eli throws a pick BBI has a trial where evidence is presented into oblivion until we can acquit him johnny cochran style from any wrong doing

But you know he's going to catch the shit for any failures Chicago suffers for the foreseeable future.

The Bears are not a great team. They're in a division with Green Bay, an improving Detroit team, and a Minnesota team that might rally a bit with the Favre distraction gone. It's easy to see Chicago going 6-10 next season. If they do Cutler's life is going to be miserable in Chicago. Utterly miserable. Whether or not its fair doesn't really matter...he's never going to get the benefit of the doubt again.

If the wideout's split, you must acquit?

criticism of Eli comes from other fans this year. The ones that don't watch each game closely. And that is what we often get on BBI about other QBs. We get PLENTY of guys with strong opinions who don't even watch these other QBs.

I'm sure he'd tell you the same thing. You won't see me rationalize 30 turnovers. I wouldn't try and I would never want to anyway.

On the flip side, I'm also not going to minimize areas in the past where he deserves credit...which has also been done here too.

Eli doesnt get ripped

If he ran the wrong route, "Not Eli's fault" we shout

im not trying to say some of the excuses for Eli weren't valid. He was indeed to a degree impacted by a simple case of "bad luck" this year (again, to a degree)

Im just saying this same type of microcrope on each turnover is not granted toward other QBs.

Quote:

Fatman, the first lengthy discussion over here David in LA : 3:42 pm happened when the threadstarter on this thread called out Cutler for wanting to get traded after he heard McDaniels was floating him around on the trade block.

Quote:

i really didn't form one strong opinion of him David in LA : 3:51 pm until the trade to Chicago happened.

bxgiants started a thread stating Josh McDaniels should be fired (in only his second month on the job, pre trade, pre draft, pre training camp, pre anything) due to his handling of Cutler and because Cutler was whining about being traded, and you AGREED with him because Cutler was, as you described, an "untradeable franchise QB".

I pointed out it was assinine to fire a coach who hadn't even coached a preseason game yet for a QB who really hadn't done much other than put up a 17-20 regular season record at that point.

At that point, the Cutler dicksucking on your part commenced. The only reason I even got involved in that argument in the first place, was due to the assinine assertion that a coach should be fired under those circumstances.

From that point on, anything Cutler related was on you, and believe me, you made yourself look like a jackass, as many on here have pointed out time after time.

Once AGAIN, you can't follow along with the context of a thread, which was the problem all the way back then, too, and I pointed it out in the "Cutlergate" thread as you and your buddy Dave in DC liked to bring up for two fucking years.

YOU'RE the one that hasn't let it go for two years.

And again... Now this is happening, lol.

assinine to fire him. It would have been the right move to make.

Cutler "hadn't done much other than put up a 17-20 regular season record".

See FMIC...these are the comments we get on other QBs on BBI. It isn't just Eli.

a 2 year old thread, i'm just recalling to the best of my memory. it's still inexcusable to trade a 25 year old QB that threw 4500 yds, and boasted the least amount of sacks. That trade essentially punched McDaniels' ticket out of town anways. I'm sure Pat Bowlen thinks to this day that he made the right decision. That's backed up by the fact that McDaniels and Orton are no longer Broncos, and Elway has gone on record saying that Cutler would probably be a Bronco if he were there a year earlier. So if you want to talk about WRONG WRONG WRONG, you at least have to admit that the Broncos were the clear losers of this transaction. Unless you're holding out hope that Robert Ayers and Demaryius Thomas are going to be all-world anytime soon.

when he was hired in January?

when he was hired in January?

that he was his guy, and was looking to forward to working with him. Cutler demanded out once he heard he was put on the trade block. You don't alienate your pro bowl QB like that, it's as simple as that.

because of Pat Bowlen, not in spite of him. When Cutler didn't return Bowlen's texts, PB wanted him gone. I'm not saying McDaniels was blameless, but if Bowlen wanted to keep Cutler, Cutler would still be a Bronco.

picked the QB over the coach. I said it when it happened too.

He comes in there and wants to trade the 25 yr old pro bowl QB? See ya. Good luck with your next job. That's what Denver should have done. They would be in better shape right now.

that he was the franchise. Turns out they didn't think so. Trust is something that's very important to maintain when running an organization, especially when it comes to the relationship between the organization/coach/and QB.

Quote:

I didn't want to get traded. This wasn't me. They (The Broncos) had been going back and forth saying things, wanting me to be their quarterback and then they didn't." "I really didn't want this. I love Denver. I really like my teammates. I didn't want it to get this far,"

There's also 2 sides to the coin...

Quote:

But in what has turned into an obvious he-said, she-said situation, Cutler claims he is the one who had not heard from the Broncos during that time. Cutler said the first time he heard from the Broncos in 10 days was Tuesday when they informed him of their decision to trade him. "A conversation with his agent earlier (Tuesday) clearly communicated and confirmed to us that Jay no longer has any desire to play for the Broncos," Bowlen said. "We will begin discussions with other teams in an effort to accommodate his request to be traded."

from the makeup of that team, they had a great offense in place, and missed the playoffs because they had a porous defense. you'd think hiring someone like Spags would have put that team in better position to compete year-in and year-out.

just always struck me as an odd guy who almost got his rocks off on feuding with players. Forget even the Cutler stuff, which is odd enough.... how about the edict he handed down to Bronco's players to not tell the media "they felt good" for Brandon Marshall when he was acquitted on domestic violence charges? That was just bizarre, and his relationship with Marshall was never the same after that either

Quote:

Britt, McDaniels has told Cutler to his face David in LA : 4:44 pm that he was his guy, and was looking to forward to working with him.

Just the other day you told me that Andy Reid never lied to Kevin Kolb, that circumstances had changed but that wasn't and not a reason for Kolb to be upset. You said it was a "BUSINESS DECISION" and football 101.

he's not a known commodity, nor has he played enough to warrant that level of respect. Cutler was coming off a very promising pro bowl season.

Vick also did things that benefited the team, considering the makeup of the OL. Kolb can't extent a play like he can, and that's a large reason why the Eagles won the division this year.

Stop bringing me into this argument. Don't put words in my mouth and I won't poke holes in your arguments.

Simple, really.

if anything, you're helping me enhance it.

then yeah, you're doing a good job.

It goes on and on my friends...

I think this has been a pretty damn good thread, everyone involved. But i too am shocked it got to be this long

i see it as being able to discern the fact that you can't make an apples to apples comparison between 2 scenarios where one guy is coming off a pro bowl season and the other guy had TWO starts under his belt.

Yours: Im just saying this same type of microcrope on each turnover is not granted toward other QBs.

Nor should it be granted towards Eli by his apologists.

On a off basis....things happen, but 25 "its not the QB's fault" is a bit much to accept.....wouldn't you agree?

will provide me with more wins? McDaniels is out of a HC job, Jay Cutler lead the bears to an NFC North crown, and Mike Vick lead the eagles to win the East.

About anything?

But that's why I posted that little quip: I'm stunned at the legs that this particular thread/topic has.

Cutler's Corner?

Yours: "The harsh criticism of Eli comes from other fans this year. The ones that don't watch each game closely."

I watch him pretty closely, and I criticize him plenty for his play this year.

I think he is a good (not great) QB that did not have a particulalry good season.

That is my take.

Seems Jerry Reese wasn't too impressed with Eli, this year, either (see link).
Giants GM: It's up to Eli to improve - ( New Window )

you know this already :-)

Player A:
336/555 (60%) -- 3,666 yards for 6.6 yds per attempt
27 TDs/26 INTs
77 QBR
7-9 record

Player B:
317/509 (63%) - 4,000 yards for 7.4 yds per attempt
31 TDs/25 INTs
85.3 QBR
10-6 record

If by mirror images, your point is that Player B's season was quite a bit better than Player A's 2009 season, then I agree.

I agree. All QBs get tagged with multiple INTs every year where they either weren't at fault or were at lesser fault. I do think Eli happened to have a somewhat inordinate amount of bad luck this year, but independent of that he also had a sloppy year on the turnover front.

Whenever a QB has a year where they throw 25+, usually theres more things going on. If people here were to dissect Cutler's 09 they'd see him being victimized on tipped INTs, miscommunications with young WR in the offense of Ron Turner who was rightly fired for being horrible, in addition to a general sucky OL. But rather than talk about these things it was just blankly decided here that Cutler "sucked". This is also the perception people seem to have of Eli's season outside of here. People are always more prone to offering excuses for "their" guy than someone else

They are similar in the fact that both started the season with high expectations, and neither met those expectations.

Eli also had the benefit of much more dynamic WR's to help boost the yardage and TD numbers. IMO Cutler's closer to the guy we saw in Denver than the guy we saw last season.

From the standpoint that they had exceedingly high INT seasons while also boasting big TD numbers. Cutler last year threw more TDs than any Bear since Sid Luckman

The comparisons are not completely perfect statistically, but when you adjust for the fact that Eli had better weapons, and Cutler played the tougher schedule of defenses (The NFC East defenses as a whole SUCKED this season, last year Cutler had to play good Viking and Bear defenses 2x each) they're similar years

.

Agree.

Their season were similar because they both underachieved.

now you're reaching

Eli's season was better than Cutler's season last year, simple as that. Of course, that isnt saying much.

I'll also leave it at i do think last year's season will go down as the worst -- by far -- of Cutler's career, and he is deserving of comparison vs Eli.

to scoff at the notion that they're similar seasons though is silly. They undoubtedly were, and when you take into account the gulf in talent disparity around them, as well as the schedule those teams had to play in regards to defenses, its very similar

The Eagles, Skins and Cowboys all had brutal years this year defensively. We also got to play the Texans and Jags which were two of the worst pass D's in recent memory.

Because Eli enjoyed a lot more success in spite of his troubles.

There's similarity there worth discussing but it's on the negatives side, not the positives.

NFC West, and Browns last year.

Also, its been well documented how injured our WRs were this year (Boss also missed time), we dont have the receiving RB the Bears do, and only time will tell with young guys like Nicks and Knox as far as who will ultimately end up better.

Eli's statistics were quite a bit better than Cutler's last year. Really not more complicated than that, not sure why you continue to argue it.

Cutler's last year vs. Eli's this year.

Much was expected of them.

They both threw too many picks.

They both threw too many ill advised / forced passes (that resulted in picks).

League wide consensus was that they both had bad years.

Over half our schedule this year was played against teams ranked 20th or lower in pass D. We played one game against a team in the top 10

Dallas and Washington were both bottom 5 in YPA allowed. We played them each twice. So were Houston and Jax and we played them too. We also played Detroit and Seattle who were just out of the bottom 5 in YPA. Thats half our schedule

Now the apologies, start.

Yes, there were reason that contributed to Eli's sub par season, but the facts are he did not have a good season, forced too many passes and turned the ball over too many times.

Reese was quite clear in that opinion.

It is only here that he gets a free pass.

I like Eli, and think he is a good QB (who played great in the '07 stretch), but he did not have a good season.

why some don't see striking similarities in the only 2 seasons of the past 15 years in the NFL where a QB throws 25+ TD and 25+ INTs

Maybe mirror image was strong, but your buggin if you don't see similarities

Smith who started 7 on his own. Forte's a good WR out of the backfield, but you don't think that perhaps he got that many looks because the Bears WR's aren't very good in the first place? I wouldn't even take Knox over Manningham to be honest with you. I think a more fair assessment of Cutler comes when he has some continuity with offensive scheme and better overall talent around him.

This is the same guy who said "93 catches isn't twice as much as 50!!!!"

93/51 = 1.8X

You're also the same guy that apparently expects equal production from a guy in an offense that threw the ball 466 times versus one that threw the ball 605 times.

Putting aside the fact that Knox is only a 2nd year receiver...

i have said a few times Cutler is on par with Eli, and also said that i believe last year will prove to be the 'outlier' year for Cutler.

I just didnt think it was fair to characterize Eli's '10 season with Cutler's 09 season, given considerable better metrics from the former (and 3 extra wins). That's all.

If you want to leave it as 'both had underachieving disappointing seasons'... like one would say Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are both good QBs... I dont disagree with that argument.

this century....

Jay Cutler 2009
Eli Manning 2010

If we go back 25 years, Peyton Manning did it in his rookie season of 1998, Bledsoe did it in his 2nd season in 1994. Cutler and Eli were the only "vets" to put up a season like that in the past quarter century

But of course, theres nothing similar about those two seasons

Maybe mirror image was strong, but those are two similar years, more similar when you grant that Eli had the better supporting cast, wasn't adjusting to a new offense (in which the coordinator sucked and got fired) and played the easier schedule of D's

.

FMiC
out of stubborn Joe. Anyway, it is funny to notice his backtracking on.... BUT... easy schedule... better supporting cast... blah blah blah, when this was the post I was responding to. Seems Joe didnt want to hear the excuses for Eli, but now makes them for Cutler.

Quote:

MarshallOnMontana : 4:14 pm Cutler 2009 and Eli 2010 were almost mirror images of eachother Look at the way BBI handled Cutler's year (maybe you don't recall) and look at the way Eli's year was handled (I believe by years end the number of INTs that were claimed as Eli's fault may have been dwindled down to like 2) If the ball got tipped MarshallOnMontana : 4:17 pm Eli doesnt get ripped If he ran the wrong route, "Not Eli's fault" we shout

I amended that and forgot about Peyton's rookie year

The point still stands. They are the only 2 such seasons in the past 12 years, and the last time it was done was done by a rookie. The guy who did it before him was a 2nd year player (Bledsoe). The last real vet QB to do it happened all the way back in 1983

Eli's season was better, but i see no issue at all calling them similar seasons especially when some of the differences can be explained by the disparity in hampering circumstances

what he was saying is if you go back as far as 25 years, it's only 25/25 has been done a handful of times.

You just seem to have an issue with comprehension

Im making a point, and have made the point, several times over on this thread that the same microscope applied to Eli can be applied to other guys throughout the league, but never is by the majority here.

carry on.

but since its a completely arbitrary threshold that doesnt mean anything, who cares.

I could lump an Aaron Brooks (26/22), Brett Favre (20/29 or 22/22 or 22/23 or 31/23) or Carson Palmer twice now at 26/20 into the discussion.

Basically any QB that throws 80% as many picks as he does TD passes, but is allowed to play a full season.

Of course last year Cutler threw as many INTs as he did TDs, at least Eli was "only" 80%.. but apparently that is similar because of a magical 25/25...

I think you would have clearly seen that if you quoted the next post (4:27), but you leave that out for some reason. I guess to try to make some point thats obviously not valid

It's been my observation that every square inch of who Eli is as a Qb, has been bisected, dissected and trisected. Not sure what hasn't been touched upon ad infinitum, ad nauseum almost daily

You really want to keep this going? They are similar seasons. I overspoke calling them mirror images. You are taking it to a whole new extreme now scoffing at the notion that there are any similarities. There are.

"...Im making a point, and have made the point, several times over on this thread that the same microscope applied to Eli can be applied to other guys throughout the league, but never is by the majority here..."

if your going to make a post pulling out numbers like that at least make them accurate. Those numbers are not

That post was to MAB

i was pointing out that you wanted to call the seasons even ....accounting for X, Y, Z (defenses, supporting cast, new OC)

...yet made fun of any poster on here earlier in the thread if they tried to say 'but you should consider' when talking about an Eli INT.

That's all - I've nothing left on this topic.

And back on point -- Cutler doesnt deserve the shit he got this week. Guy has missed one game in his entire career.

That is all.

which #s are inaccurate?

didn't throw as many TDs as he did INTs last season

Yes, its a nitpick, but if your gonna be the guy who carries on with Kwall about Moss reception total only being 1.8 times higher than Knox, as opposed to "twice", its only fair

well played

looking. He had a pretty good 4 year stretch, much better than what I remember. I guess his stint with Oakland did just enough to undo all the good he did in NO.

was at one point the only Saints QB to ever win a playoff game.

outdueled Kurt Warner which hasn't been done often in the playoffs by anyone.

I still remember the Rams got into the playoffs that year based on some fluke lucky help situation happening in week 17 that no one expected, i can't remember the specifics, and after they got in, everyone expected the defending champs to go on a run. They would have been favored against us that year too, even when we were the 1 seed. Walked into our building and beat us without Warner or Faulk. Im still happy we avoided them thanks in part to Aaron Brooks, I don't think we go to the SB otherwise

i dont remember either but just went to pro-footballreference

Was it the Bears (4-11 at the time) beating the Lions (9-6 at the time) in Detroit 23-20 due to a 4Q INT return for TD by McQuarters and a 54 yard FG by Paul Edinger.

Rams won in week 17 at New Orleans (rematched the following week) in a game that was i guess meaningless to NO b/c they hosted the game the following week anyway.

My initial thought off the top of my head was that Detroit was involved. So that makes a lot of sense

We escaped a major bullet with N.O. beating the Rams..Iirc, they were ahead something like 31-7 and Warner brought them back to 31-28 and had a shot at winning. Boy was I relieved

a muffed punt by az hakim stalled their comeback in that game

.

.

over Seattle stunning N.O.

who the hell was Willie Jackson?

6 catches, 142 yards, 3 TDs

During the season he had 37 catches for 520 yards. Followed it up with a nice 81 catch/1,050 yard season, but was out of the league within 2 years.

i wonder how different the NFL would be today had the Rams won that game. There's a very good chance they could have beaten us, and been squaring off against that insane Ravens D.

Aaron Brooks was supposed to be the next big thing, everyone comparing him to randall cunningham, and Jim Haslett was thought of as a stud young coach, first year on the job he wins the division (a division that included the defending world champion rams) and wins the first playoff game in Saints history (unseating the defending champion Rams)

At that time, pre 2002 realignment, they were NFC West Rivals

Completely blanked on him. I remember he came from virtually nowhere..He was awesome that day..Thankfully

Completely blanked on him. I remember he came from virtually nowhere..He was awesome that day..Thankfully

.

he won coach of the year. No one expected jack out of that team let alone win the division with the dominant Rams in it

from 2000 following the Lions inexplicable loss to Chicago in week 17 that allowed the Rams into the playoffs. Quotes from Lions coaches and players, at a loss for words...

I just remember being madly pissed when this happened
Link - ( New Window )

of Tiki Barber at UVa? He is also a cousin of the Vick brothers, but seems to have made better choices in his life.

he was a teammate of Tiki (as well as Ronde, James Farrior and Jamie Sharper the brother of Darren and 2000 Raven) with UVA. He wasn't the primary QB when Tiki was there though. He did see some action in Tiki's senior season (1996) and started a couple games as well as relieving in some others, but he didn't become their main QB until 97 and 98 when Tiki was in the NFL already

He was drafted initially by the Packers (4th round) and was their 3rd QB behind Favre and Matt Hasselbeck. Pretty good depth there. They flipped him to New Orleans for a 3rd rounder after his rookie year

we got whooped. couldn't stop them all afternoon.

Then they lost the next week to the Lions (Sehorn pants falling down game), followed by the Fassel guarantee, and we never lost again until SB Sunday

it's 1.832568738X.

Let's get it right!

that was exactly my point about 3 pages ago on this thread:

Quote:

well atr least that's as close to a mea culpa as we'll ever get MetsAreBack : 1/26/2011 6:06 pm FMiC out of stubborn Joe. Anyway, it is funny to notice his backtracking on.... BUT... easy schedule... better supporting cast... blah blah blah, when this was the post I was responding to. Seems Joe didnt want to hear the excuses for Eli, but now makes them for Cutler.

So far we have heard that eli's stats were in part due to a soft schedule and FAR better WR's (which oddly doesn't mention having Hagan as a starter for the last few games).

Meanwhile, there was a lengthy discussion about who has suckier WR's than the Bears, how their OL blows chunks and how their running game is horrid. Of course, their running game was 22nd in the league vs. a 28th ranked passing attack, but Cutler was instrumental in getting them to the AFC game. I wonder if people thought Danny Kanell was instrumental in getting us to the playoffs one year, too?

As I said before - I could care less how Cutler compares to Eli, but it is interesting to see excuses made for Cutler and against Eli for no apparent reason.

Excuses should not be made for either.

Yes, extenuating circumstances should be considered, but the bottom line...

Cutler threw too many interception is '09 as Eli did in too '10.

Cutler made too many ill-advised passes in '09 as Eli did in '10.

Cutler did improved from '09 - '10. Hopefully Eli will do the same in '11.

I agree completely.

You know, BBI is biased in favor of Eli. Just ask any other fanbase.

But when you ask 'is BBI biased regarding Cutler', you don't get a straight answer. The implication is we're biased, because we're comparing him to Eli.

By extension, wouldn't any other fanbase be biased the same way? I don't know of any other teams that don't have a quarterback.

Also odd to see how bias comes out when discussing Eli's draft status and Cutler. The people who defend Cutler's actions (which, included while being under contract with Denver refusing to answer messages from the owner, GM and coach) oddly drag out Eli's refusal to go to SD, where one is a clear contractual violation and the other is a perfectly legal option availed to all draftees.

No matter how you try and spin it, there's bias in both directions.

One of my big complaints when Eli is concerned. If you talk about the facts/cercumstances surrounding Eli's stats you're an apologist or an excuse maker. Yet, if you do it for any other QB in the NFL your being objective. It's one of the main reason's I don't post as much on those topics. anything short of "he sucks" and your dismissed.

I agree. It was funny to see the number of people who talked about Brees having a good year and they explained that his high INT's were a function of injuries.

I watched games where Brees tried some left-handed tosses, some backward throws to avoid sacks, and some desperation shovel passes, similar to some of the things Eli does. Posters called Brees crafty for doing it while eli is making a reckless decision when he does it.

I wish there weren''t apologists or excuse makers, and instead people who just realize that Eli is a good QB, and guess what - so is Brees, Rodgers, rivers, Big Ben and others.

People don't have to tear down one QB to make another look better, but that happens here a lot.

I'm pretty sure Joe mentioned the Giants schedule AFTER MAB ripped the Bears schedule.

So...once again...Joe is right. The stuff you find amusing is being used to rip OTHER QBs.

it's not just this thread, it's EVERY thread on QB's.

Some have brought up that Brees threw something like over a100 passes more which is WHY his Int totals rivaled Eli's, which is not an unfair point.And yes, I get and agree where you're at

I don't think so. MAB posted how Eli's 2010 really isn't as statistically a mirror-image of Cutler's 2009 as MoM would have you believe and in response, Joe came back with this:

Quote:

MAB MarshallOnMontana : 1/26/2011 5:17 pm From the standpoint that they had exceedingly high INT seasons while also boasting big TD numbers. Cutler last year threw more TDs than any Bear since Sid Luckman The comparisons are not completely perfect statistically, but when you adjust for the fact that Eli had better weapons, and Cutler played the tougher schedule of defenses (The NFC East defenses as a whole SUCKED this season, last year Cutler had to play good Viking and Bear defenses 2x each) they're similar years

you would be wrong in that recollection. dont take it out on me that you're all alone in your views of how great Santana Moss is.

Quote:

didn't want to get traded. This wasn't me. They (The Broncos) had been going back and forth saying things, wanting me to be their quarterback and then they didn't." "I really didn't want this. I love Denver. I really like my teammates. I didn't want it to get this far," But in what has turned into an obvious he-said, she-said situation, Cutler claims he is the one who had not heard from the Broncos during that time. Cutler said the first time he heard from the Broncos in 10 days was Tuesday when they informed him of their decision to trade him. "A conversation with his agent earlier (Tuesday) clearly communicated and confirmed to us that Jay no longer has any desire to play for the Broncos," Bowlen said. "We will begin discussions with other teams in an effort to accommodate his request to be traded."

Cutler's not some punk that randomly decided he was all of a sudden unhappy in Denver. He was coming off a great season, and his new coach comes in and shattered the relationship. There's no rhyme or reason, and that move without a doubt set Denver back and cost McDaniels his job. if 20-20 hindsight is the best way of determining a winner of a trade, Chicago got the better end of that deal in a landslide, and Denver's left picking up the pieces of McDaniel's mess.

Just a hell of a lot better than Knox right now.

is you saying that "Chicago got the better end of the deal in a landslide".

Now, there is no doubt whatsoever that Denver botched the picks they recieved. Obviously McDaniels is gone, and Orton is gone as well. They are, in fact, picking up the pieces. You're right.

However, let's just take the team names out of the equation for a second, hypothetically.

Team A gives Jay Cutler to Team B

Team B gives two 1st round picks, a 3rd round pick, and Kyle Orton to Team A

As I said above, we know how that turned out. Shit, the Redskins got New Orleans entire draft for Ricky Williams, they should have been dominant for a decade off that alone, but blew it.

But just looking at the terms of the trade, do you think that Jay Cutler is worth what Chicago gave up, and do you think another team would give that up right now for Jay Cutler.

I don't want to argue, just an honest question, and of course, hypothetical.

.

A point I've seen writte a lot on BBI. However, you could also counter the fact that Eli would have both higher TD's and INT's if he threw 100 more passes. This is the whole point...We point out the 100 more passes to explain away Brees INT's, but don't use it to discount his TD numbers.

In other words you can't assume 100 more or less passes only equal the postive stats. More likely then not 100 more passes equals both higher TD's and INT's and 100 less equals less of both.

But they did poorly with the picks. Had those picks been Clay Matthews, Jr., Dez Bryant, and Mike Wallace we'd be singing a different tune.

because Cutler was 25 at the time, and came off of a pro bowl season. Perception is a bit skewed when you consider Cutler has had 2 different OC's in Chicago, he put up much better numbers with some continuity in scheme, and he had much better WR's with Marshall and Royal. Still, IMO, two 1sts and a 3rd, seems fair for a starting QB, and it really depends how dire of a need it is.

I think Denver easily got the better end of that deal, but totally blew the picks. Is anyone giving up anything close to that for Cutler now? Is anyone even giving up a first round pick for Cutler?

picks.

I don't think Chicago won on the landslide, I think in hindsight you could say they got the better result, but from strictly a terms standpoint, I also think Denver got the better end of the deal.

From a strictly terms standpoint, again.

if you currently have a QB, it's probably for the best that you stick with him, because you're not guaranteed to nail those picks, and it's not guaranteed that you can replace your QB with someone as good.

these Joe QB threads are just epic.

for picks when it's not guaranteed that you're going to hit on those picks? Britt, if you owned the Broncos, what would have been the more sensible quick fix for them? Keep in mind, Denver's porous offense was the biggest reason why they missed the playoffs. Would you have hired Josh McDaniels, and allow him to trade Cutler, or would you hire a defensive minded candidate such as Spags and allow him to keep the offense scheme in tact?

was trading him for the crap shoot of draft picks.

"What if" they got Mike Wallace or Clay Mathews? Come on.

The coach was in over his head. The biggest mistake DEN made was picking that coach. It isn't just the muff on Cutler. He dropped Hillis and Marshall too. The Denver offense was not the problem but he ripped it apart.

The problem for that team was defense and pass rush. Any coach who went there should have focused on the defense. Instead this guy wanted a new QB.

Schaub didn't have Cutler's resume in the NFL. Cutler was a very productive starter, a pro bowler, with a cannon. What did Schaub do before HOU?

for a 25 year old Pro Bowl QB? Yes. The entire league makes that trade.

Reasonable..

Your choice:

A. Jay Cutler
B. Two 1sts, a 3rd, Kyle Orton

A or B?

the easy choice is take Cutler.

(DEN also traded a pick)

it's what Chicago could have drafted. They could have drafted Dez Bryant and Mike Wallace to build up the WR group that has been so criticized on this thread.

I'm not debating McDaniels's incompetence. He fucked Denver up huge. But the point is this...I don't think Jay Cutler is worth 2 1sts and a 3rd. Further, I promise you there isn't a team in the league that would give that up for him now.

Cutler I still believe, has upside

A. Jay Cutler, 5th round pick
B. Two 1sts, a 3rd, Kyle Orton

and you want to hitch the ride to Kyle Orton? No thanks.

In DEN the problem was defense. Not offense or QB. They should have hired Rex Ryan or somebody who can improve a D. Not a young fool like McDaniel.

It's really easy. You stick with Cutler.

It's tough to get a QB. When you have one (and it's working at a high level) you don't trade him. In DEN, the plan should have been to work on the defense that just got stomped for a season.

Do you think Chicago, if they could, would do it all over, same terms and everything?

We aren't talking right now. He's 2 yrs older and had some issues in CHI. His value is lower.

But you do trade that package in 2008 for a 25 year old who played at Cutler's level. People were raving about his upside at the time. Coaches, NFL analysts, you name it. Not just fans on a message board.

Just look at the QB situation in CHI for the past 30 years. They made the right move.

Yes I do. They have Cutler and Knox for Orton, 2 firsts, and a 3rd.

Cutler last 16 regular season games in CHI: 4000+ 32 TDS 16 INTS and a 12-4 record. And he's what? 27?

Yes they make that trade again.

Just wondering.

Cutler/Knox vs Orton and the picks?

I'd probably take the two 1sts, the 3rd, and Orton.

But that's just me.

Two 1st Round Picks plus a 3rd Round pick for just about any player in the league, honestly.

That's a high price to pay.

.

If his value is lower and you wouldn't do the deal now, that's tantamount to saying Chicago got the worse end of the deal. Nothing happened in Cutler's 2 years in Chicago to make the deal worth it.

You're saying, with the gift of hindsight, that Chicago paid too much. I agree.

they just won a playoff game and hosted a NFC title game. They're not playing in that game with Kyle Orton and two first rounders which may or may not have worked out.

Cutler won them games vs Dallas, Philly and the Jets during the season. He only cost them one game, vs Redskins.

I'm always a reasonable man...until it's time to be unreasonable.... ;)

Champ game.

In his last 16 they are 12-4 and this QB produced 4K+, 32 TDs, 16 Ints.

This is nothing?

It's a lot better than Orton and picks.

CHI makes the deal again.

Does DEN make the deal again?

definitely. Cutler just played like dogshit in the NFCC at home against a division rival.

What Denver would change is how they used those picks.

as a case for Cutler. Since the trade:

Orton: 41/21, 7400
Cutler: 50/42, 6900

And Orton didn't play the last three games of the year because they wanted to look at Tebow.

which I feel are similar, well, since they are the same team, just different years.

2006 Bears made it to the Superbowl:

Rex Grossman was 262/480 for 3193, 23 TD's, 20 INT's

2010 Chicago Bears made it to the NFC Championship:

Jay Cutler was 261/432 for 3274, 23 TD's, 16 INT's

Again, MY POINT IS NOT TO COMPARE QB'S. It's just saying that in the Bears/Lovie's SYSTEM, QB may or may not be more/less important.

Could Kyle Orton do what Cutler did this year? Don't know, but Grossman did.

is really underrated. He'll help a team next season (hopefully not the Redskins).

But he had plenty of opportunities in Chicago and for whatever reason, just didnt play well for them.

is immensely more talented than Orton...but that doesn't mean the Bears wouldn't be achieving the same success with Orton at QB. Who knows...Orton might be better in Martz's system.

those arent the same #s. Grossman threw for 100 less yards on 50 extra pass attempts and he threw 4 more picks.

the only thing that looks the same are pass completions and TDs.

I was comparing results.

but 100 yards, 50 attempts, and 4 picks is kind of chump change spread out over a season, no?

but it was interesting to see Grossman put together #s that good. I remember him being pretty good in the NFC playoff games too (esp New Orleans) before completely crapping the bed in every which way possible against the Colts.

he was good for at least two bad QB/Center exchanges per game.

Elway has been on record saying that if it were up to him, Cutler would still be a Bronco. You don't give up a QB that's proven he can do the job.

was a high price to pay, because of the fact that they got a franchise QB in return...

Britt, i'm interested to hear your thoughts on my 12:07

Quote:

why give up a proven commodity at the most important position David in LA : 12:07 pm for picks when it's not guaranteed that you're going to hit on those picks? Britt, if you owned the Broncos, what would have been the more sensible quick fix for them? Keep in mind, Denver's porous offense was the biggest reason why they missed the playoffs. Would you have hired Josh McDaniels, and allow him to trade Cutler, or would you hire a defensive minded candidate such as Spags and allow him to keep the offense scheme in tact?

Quote:

I think any competent GM would have to strongly consider.... Britt in VA : 12:26 pm Two 1st Round Picks plus a 3rd Round pick for just about any player in the league, honestly. That's a high price to pay. obviously there are exceptions. Britt in VA : 12:28 pm

I just don't happen to think Cutler is one of the exceptions. But, like everything else, that's just my personal opinion.

I always thought that the reason the Broncos played poorly was Mike Shanahan's inability to draft for defense, so I guess I'd have gone with a defensive minded coach, but that's a different conversation.

so if you were the Giants, would you listen to that conversation over Eli? Since you said you'd have at least be open to that discussion. I think most competent GM's understand that a QB is hard to replace, and that it's never an exact science.

especially if this were 2 years ago where he's 25, threw for 4500 yards, and was the least sacked QB in the league.

so would he listen? Maybe. Would I? No, but I feel like Eli is a lot better than Cutler, but hey, that's my personal opinion.

Secondly, I don't think he's one of the exceptions because that's just my personal feel. Least sacked in the league doesn't really impress me that much, I think that's more a product of the O-line.

All of it my personal opinion.

i've been saying Cutler's numbers have been down from Denver because his WR's and OL in Chicago aren't nearly as good. You give Eli what Cutler had last season, and see how many sacks he avoids with Orlando Pace's carcass protecting his blind side. There's not one starter on Chicago's offense that i'd take over ours. My point is, Cutler's not nearly as bad, and you seem to judge QB's like they are pitchers, when football is the ultimate team sport.

Cutler -- no o-line or WRs (pay no attention to WR/RB) = excuse

Eli - WRs run wrong routes or have balls tipped off their hands = not an excuse

got it.

doesn't mean i think one guy is a bad qb, i think both are good, and Eli is better, but not by as much as you think.

which cast of OL, WR's and RB's would you take? Chicago or NY? It's more fair to compare Cutler 2 seasons ago when he had those parts around him. He had a great season, but I still don't think it was a year better than Eli's 2008-2010 seasons.

.

Quote:

and what makes you think Cutler's not one of those exceptions? David in LA : 1:25 pm especially if this were 2 years ago where he's 25, threw for 4500 yards, and was the least sacked QB in the league.

If the O-line protection is a product of the team aspect, then why did you include it with what Cutler did as if it was some sort of individual feat, or unique to Culter, such as how old he was, or how much he threw for?

that there wasn't anything broken with the denver offense. they had a great thing going. you don't think it's a bit peculiar that the least sacked guy turned into the most sacked guy as soon as he switched uniforms? you never QUITE answered my question...in simpler terms, overhaul the offense with McDaniels or bring in a defensive guru to be the HC and let Bates keep the offense intact for Cutler.

One seems to be a quicker fix than the other. There were no guarantees that Orton would come in and play great (he played very well), nor were there guarantees that those picks were going to end up being future pro bowlers.

Eli had to deal with a plethora of injuries at OL, but at the same time wouldn't you agree that we also have had the luxury of having a good GM that gives us quality depth like Beatty, and Andrews?

Chicago's OL was regarded as one of the worst before going into this season, while our starters have been regarded as one of the best groups in the entire league.

Please don't turn this into me bashing Eli to make Cutler look good, it's more of a commentary on how we have a great organization that doesn't do rash things like dump the baby out with the bath water (which is what Denver did). You don't trade young QB's coming off of pro bowl seasons, you let them go through growing pains with the offensive system. Our organization is just more well run and patient than Denver's.

That is a good point.

you don't think continuity in scheme is a little important? A defensive minded coach could have easily kept the OC and scheme in place. While they might not have mastered it like Shanahan, the terminology and basic premise is in place.

I don't know what to tell you. Ill give you the same response I gave MAB. I also still happen to think you are lost if you think BBI has a widespread tendency to make excuses for other QBs while bashing Eli. Its quite the opposite way around. Im merely offering some of the extenuating circumstances for Cutler that people here would inevitably be hyping the shit out of if it were Eli in those shoes

Also when you make comments like "Peyton is a good QB, so is Brady, so is Rodgers and Ben and Eli, lets just leave it at that". You again almost sound as if its not laughable to put Eli on that level

Eli is a good QB. Those guys just happen to be quite a bit better.

This has been an excellent thread, everyone involved IMO, but we're going in circles at this point. Im bowing out of this one now

The man, the myth, the legend. We're talking about what he brings to the table, whether it be for Denver, Chicago, or whomever his next team may be.

it is laughable to say that Eli, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers and Ben are all good QB's.

The problem is that you think there is some sort of issue with that statement.

Several QB's can be good at the same time. I'm not sure why we have to do cock-measuring contests to figure out who is best.

You seem to defend Eli like we're saying mean things about someone's kid. He's a great QB, but not in that group. Nothing wrong with that.

Yours; "Eli isn't quite in that tier...He's a great QB, but not in that group."

C'mon bro'. Elis a good quaterback coming off a 'not so good' season.

He is not a great QB, and he is far from the 'top tier'.

and you make good points.

Bottom line is we've proven we can win with Eli, so who cares if he's as good as the other guys.

that wish they can have one of Brees, Brady and Peyton. Nothing wrong with not being one of the best.

was more of an anamoly. IMO, Eli will cut down the picks.

Rodgers appears to be joining that tier.

we got our guy, we can win with him. it's not just a QB that gets you over the top. winning is about having a good organization from front office, scouts, coaches, and your teammates.

I hope so, but even before this year he was good to very good, not very good to great.

He is/was def. not anywhere near that top tier (other than the great playoff run).

Not with Larry-o.

Are you saying that you agree that Eli is just a notch below Brady, Beyton, Brees and Rodgers?

If so - yes, we very much disagree.

Not you.

?

.

He's not Rogers, Brady, Manning, etc, but he most certainly is a great QB. This year had too many INT's but that appears to be an anomaly considering he threw 24 over the prior 2 seasons combined. Look at his other numbers, they show a great season. YPA near the the top of the league, completion % near the top of the league, TD's near the top of the league. All of those metrics are key success factors. People seem to focus on the negative stat (INT) and ignore the numerous other great results. His 2009 season was excellent, he's got a Superbowl and Superbowl MVP.

He's ascended to be a great QB. Those disputing that have their head stuck too far up their ass.

to lead his team to a GW SB drive. It was 83 yards and against an 18-0 "best ever" team. I don't care about the Tyree play or the dropped A.S. INT(I think he would have come down OOB, but that's moot); he engineered, in the clutch, that drive including that 3rd and 11 to Smith and the beauty to Plax. That shows moxie, confidence and talent in the clutch. That makes him a great QB imo. To me greatness is defined by what you do when the ice threatens to melt in your veins. Fellate the stats all one wants, I know who I want when the chips are down..

Ben followed the next year with the second ever GW drive, polished off by that TD to Holmes. Question that call or break all you want, he led the drive in the clutch. That also makes him(to me) a great non-statistical QB as well.

Define Great all you want and in any way you want, Give me the Unitas', Peytons, Starrs, Montanas, Bradys, Elis and Bens every day when the all is on the line. Let them go 8-19 for 110 yards, UNTIL you need them to get it done. Can they always? Of course not, it's about who you want to take your chances with when the chips are down. Aside from Peyton and Brady, give me Ben and Eli any day of the week.
The most talented QB at this point, Rodgers, has a chance to Join the championship, clutch elite.

My two cents

against the Bengals, leaving only :35 seconds on the clock.

.

I know the stat your reaching for, I read about it in Ralph's book. I want to say the stat is he and Montana or its scoring the TD when he has to.

What people all seem to forget is that the play before the game winning TD against the bengals, Montana had an easy interception dropped in the end zone.

Eli has proven to be a good QB who went on a great run, culminating in our version of 'the drive'.

IMO - His overall playoff numbers speak to how he performs in the cluch.......they are not great.

7 Games
Cmp 113
Att 193
Cmp% 58.5
Yds 1297
TD's 8
Int;s 7
Rating 77.6 6.72 5.92 11 14 1.27 0

Yes, he has proven to have balls, but he played some bad games in big spots, too.

I am an Eli fan. He is a good, but not great QB, went on a great run in 2007.

IMO

Eli has proven to be a good QB who went on a great run, culminating in our version of 'the drive'.

IMO - His overall playoff numbers speak to how he performs in the cluch.......they are not great.

7 Games
Cmp 113
Att 193
Cmp% 58.5
Yds 1297
TD's 8
Int;s 7
Rating 77.6

Yes, he has proven to have balls, but he played some bad games in big spots, too.

I am an Eli fan. He is a good, but not great QB, went on a great run in 2007.

Hit submist b4 cleaning it up

Since then, how do his numbers look?

Question: How did he look in the '09 Phil. game?

Answer: Shitty.

Eli is a good, not great player. He has hit ups and down, but he is not in the great QB discussion.

Comp-103-175(59%)
1184 yards
8 TD's
4 INT's
Rating-90ish?

somewhere in between good and great.

Phil game

15 for 29
51.7%
0 td's
2 int's
40.7 rating

Yes he went on a great '07 run.

No, he is not a great QB....yet.

is great in every post season game?

Is he great?

Rodgers and Ben's stats from last week wouldn't look so good if it wasn't a win.

It really doesn't matter if you call eli good or great. It just becomes a battle of semantics that really doesn't have a conclusion. He's our QB for the foreseeable future.

I am saying Eli Manning is not a great QB.

I am saying he is a good QB....borderline top ten in the league, that went on a great run in '07.

His body of work does not suggest greatness.

QBs in the league. Only about 7 or 8 other guys have comparable or better bodies of work.

A few playoff losses doesn't change this.

in 5 of his 7 playoff starts....

Why stats are deceiving.

Agree, and I am ok with that.

I am a fan of Eli.....my Eli Manning draft day hat is still my Giants hat of choicse....what higher honor can I give than that?!?

But,

I don't agree with the free pass he is offered from the apologists around here, and thought I would involve myself in today's version of this endless Eli debate that will never get settled.

I just wanted to say i always get a chuckle out of stuff like this

Quote:

David Larry O : 1/27/2011 3:46 pm I hope so, but even before this year he was good to very good, not very good to great. He is/was def. not anywhere near that top tier (other than the great playoff run).

YES, WE SHOULD DEFINITELY EXCLUDE THAT PLAYOFF RUN!!!

has had more success than his big brother in the playoffs by Eli's current age.

moron.

the guy's got like a 0 QBR.

in 07, so I hate him and thinks he sucks.

Give me the quitter any day of the week.

(that should send some sparks!!)

A strange thing about these Eli debates, if you point out the good stuff about him, you are labeled an apologist. If you point out both the good and the bad about him and stress that the good is more prevalent than the bad, still labeled an apologist.

If you only point out the bad to bring him down a notch, you're an eli-basher. (I put you in this category larry, but I wouldn't call you an eli-basher)

And then there's just the Eli trolls.

I just don't get why people can't acknowledge that his positives easily outweigh the negatives and even with the negatives, he's still far and away one of the better starting QBs in the league.

because we could have had RIVERS!!!!!!

(even though Accorsi said he would not have drafted even in round 2!)

Peyton-4 playoff berths(3-4)
Eli-4 playoff berths(4-3)

Peyton-0 SB wins
Eli-1 SB win(MVP)

.

for Accorsi. We woulda been fine with Rivers.

But there will be an excuse made for peyton, while for eli, it's just because of one fluke run that we can throw out as an outlier.

on the other side.

it's like there's fieldturf on the other side, while the giants are stuck with mud.

so true.

Fair.

I am a fan of Eli, and but I used to hold him in higher esteem.

I am also a believer that losing Chris Palmer hurt him big time this year.

I think he is good, but not elite / great.

It appears that Jerry Reese's comments that other day agree with that assessment.

I am happy he is our QB, but want better out of him next year.

I will never regret the trade with San Diego, as Eli delivered big time in '07.

I want an improved player next year....one with better mechanics, less turnovers and less forced throws.

was that he was unhappy with Eli's 2010 season. What did he say that makes you think he doesn't think Eli is great/Elite?

.

Reese's quote;" “I think he’s going to put the onus on him, and that’s where the onus is, it’s on him......He needs to take care of the ball better and he knows that,” Reese said. “I think Eli tried to do too much late in the season after we had some of the receivers go out and the offensive line was a mixed bag for a lot of the season. I think he was trying to do too much and I think that cost him some turnovers.”

IMO - this does not sound like Reese praising Eli, nor does from this do I infer that Reese considers Eli great and/or elite.

But, no prob with me if you disagree with my assessment.

was unhappy with Eli's 2010 season. I don't see where he agrees with your assessment that Eli isn't great/elite, but it's cool, you are entitled to your opinion no matter how much I disagree.

an indictment of the kind of QB Eli is. They're not.

Reese said exactly what Eli has said about the INTs. They're on him, they're his to own.

But let's not act like Jerry is saying this guy is *just* a good QB, nothing more.

If that's what you're taking away from the comments, then you're reading too far into something that isn't there.

from JR, I don't think he's being overly critical. I'm sure Eli would agree with his sentiments as well.

who would disagree with what Reese said, but that isn't the point.

...he is politely/publically busting Eli's balls.

I think he is saying.....I don't want to hear any excuses about injuries to wide receivers, tipped balls and/or wrong route running. The turnovers are on you, Eli, the QB.

Therefore, I don't see how Reese thinks Eli is great / elite. I think he is saying Eli is a player that has to get better.

IMO - Great / elite players can't get much better....they are the best of the best, and perform to that level.

I don't see how that can be inferred from what Reese is saying.

where they throw a lot of INT's? Is that what you are saying?

the fact that the onus is on Eli to correct the turnovers. He cites the WRs and the OL but explicitly states those are not excuses. That's pretty much all he said.

You seem to be inferring a fuck ton more from his comments than I am.