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Article: Giants Have Oldest Starting OL In The NFL

Trainmaster : 7/16/2011 11:14 am
The Football Outsiders site has a link to this article which ranks all the offensive lines in the NFL, with their projected Giants starters as Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie (I did a quick search and didn't see it poster or linked; I'll delete if it has):

The 2011 version of Giants’ offensive line looks eerily similar to that of the Cowboys’ OL last season. At just under 32 years of age on average, the Giants don’t just have the oldest offensive line in the NFL – They have the oldest offensive OL in the NFL by a wide margin, with the Lions behind them by almost 2 years, on average.

Moreover, this isn’t a situation in which the Giants have “a guy here or a guy there” that’s something like 38 or 39 and skews the numbers – They have a similar conundrum to the Cowboys’ OL of a year ago, where four of their five OL starters will be over 31 years old by mid-season, and the fifth knocking on the door of 30.

The article also points out that 3 of the 5 starters lost significant playing time to injury last year.

Too bad we missed all the OTA and minicamps as the younger guys could have used more work. It would be really great to have one or more of the younger recent draft picks shine and grab a starting spot.


Bloggingthebeast.com Article Link - ( New Window )
I think its highly unlikely that the 5 guys pictured  
j_rud : 7/16/2011 11:19 am : link
are the opening day starters.
Drafting an O lineman  
Friebe : 7/16/2011 11:39 am : link
first round this year an expecting an immediate impact is a fallacy as well.
Friebe  
BSIMatt : 7/16/2011 11:45 am : link
You beat me to it. Expecting an immediate impact and upgrade from a rookie is risky to say the least. You don't know if you have a bust on your hands or a promising rookie who needs work till the start playing games and you can actually evaluate the player.
What stupid analysis  
chris r : 7/16/2011 11:48 am : link
So if dallas was still the oldest the giants line would be aok?
The line  
AcidTest : 7/16/2011 11:48 am : link
is a real concern. Every one of our Centers is hurt, Boothe will probably leave via FA once a new CBA is signed, Andrews has back issues which may end is career, Petrus is unproven, and McKenzie is over thirty.

I wouldn't be surprised to see us add another OL in FA, especially if Boothe leaves.
If Beatty is added  
PEEJ : 7/16/2011 12:02 pm : link
and Seubert benched (or PUPed,) the OL average age drops a year or more.

Age doesn't necessarily mean old or ineffective.
Read  
Manningham TD : 7/16/2011 12:06 pm : link
his blog. The guy's an Eagles fan and biased, not that I disagree completely with this article.
Linemen play well into their 30s.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/16/2011 12:07 pm : link
Just like quarterbacks.

And McKenzie is coming off what may have been his best professional season. The concern is Center.
Rookies start on the offensive line and play well all the time.  
Curtis in MD : 7/16/2011 12:08 pm : link
Its not like some other positions that are more complicated. Being scared of a possible bust is no reason not to address the need.
Scared? Unless there's a Joe Thomas or Jake Long there  
Big Blue '56 : 7/16/2011 12:15 pm : link
there's no reason to draft an OL in Round one. Our SB winning OL:

Diehl (rd 5), Seubert(streets), O'Hara(trade), Snee(rd2) and KMac (FA)...
And, we may have something big in Beatty, Petrus and our guy this draft.

Didn't even mention Andrews (FA), because of back issues
Oldest and most experienced  
The Natural : 7/16/2011 12:15 pm : link
O lineman typically play very well into their thirties. IMO this is a non-issue.
Curtis  
Friebe : 7/16/2011 12:15 pm : link
I should of empathized THIS YEAR more than I did. No OTA's + accelerated training camp is rather huge, and you'll less rookie starters because of it.
If players are granted UFA after 4 years and Carl Nicks  
yatqb : 7/16/2011 12:28 pm : link
becomes available, I'd sign him at almost any cost and then have no worries about the OL.
Lomas Brown and Glenn Parker worked out pretty well in 2000.  
arcarsenal : 7/16/2011 12:33 pm : link
After that was a different story... but our vets can still play.
4 of the 5 Dallas OL he trashes in the article for miserable  
RobotGhost : 7/16/2011 12:38 pm : link
performance will all be another year older and right back starting again for the Cowboys this season.

Unless Tyron Smith kicks ass immediately as a rookie OT in the NFC East (which is tough) it's going to look a lot like last year in Big D. I'd wager on Will Beatty having more of an impact in 2011 than T. Smith right now.

The Cowboys haven't taken an "enormous step in the right direction" on the OL. They've still got real issues going into 2011, especially on pass pro.


Our OL is a major concern......  
doncam : 7/16/2011 1:05 pm : link
I can't see O'Hara & Seubert both playing at the same time because neither are "power" linemen. Only one should start. I think Boothe played well at G. I think it's imperative that we bring him back.
BB'56  
Optimus-NY : 7/16/2011 1:23 pm : link
O'Hara wasn't acquired via trade. He was signed in 2004 as a FA from Cleveland where he played both Guard and Center, a la David Baas.

As far as never drafting OL in Round 1 unless they're dominant OTs, like Thomas and Long, I vehemently disagree. Everything starts and ends in the trenches. Look at the two best Centers in football now: Nick Mangold and Maurkice Pouncey. They were first rounders (chosen 29th and 18th overall respectively). Who wouldn't want either of those two guys as your starting Center?

How about Guard? Nowadays Guards aren't as drafted as they used to be, but that's an advantage if you think about it: A dominant Guard can be had in the last third of the first round, or early second round. Case in point: Chris Snee. The guy is an absolute mauler who we're blessed to root for. GY had it right about the Planet Theory. Too bad EA never shared that same opinion, otherwise we may have seen an extra SB title.
Which 4 do you think will be in there  
eliisthemanning : 7/16/2011 1:24 pm : link
For Dallas. It will be free, davis, gurode, kosier, and smith
I also disagree  
GMANinDC : 7/16/2011 1:27 pm : link
Trying to rely on lower round picks to maker major impacts is a dice game. Just because it worked out one time doesn't mean it will work all the time..The OL needs a infusion of talent..
GMan - go look up the average draft choice selection status of the  
BlueLou : 7/16/2011 1:49 pm : link
last 5 or so SB winners, maybe even SB participants. Not a lot of investment in the OL, I'd bet. The rules changes emphasizing protecting the QB, receivers, and favoring the passing game overall have lessened the importance of top notch OLs, IMO.

I think teams are placing more value (at the draft) on skills positions players than ever.
Of course, blue goose OLTs remain at a premium,  
BlueLou : 7/16/2011 1:50 pm : link
but otherwise...
I  
ChicagoMarty : 7/16/2011 1:52 pm : link
think a big difference between our OL and the Cowboys OL is not so much the starters but the backups.

I think the Jints backups are better now and and have the potential to be much better.

Jints have drafted Will Beatty a second rounder, two years ago

Mitch Petrus a fifth rounder last year and

James Brewer a fourth rounder this year while

adding FA Andrews.

Lots of questions there no doubt about it and it is reasonable to say that the Jints bring their OL along fairly slowly.

But this is the year for Beatty to step up if he is ever going to do so. I am comfortable with getting Petrus more in the mix this year and pointing to next year for him to step up.

Brewer needs to learn pro technique and get in the weight room for a year or two.

One key question is whether Andrews remains with the team this year and at what level of compensation. If he is healthy and reasonably priced then I think the Jint backup OL is clearly superior to the Cows as well as most of the rest of the league.
BlueLou  
Optimus-NY : 7/16/2011 2:21 pm : link
Control the line of scrimmage, and you control how the game is played. See what Bill Parcells thinks of your idea.

"Power wins football games." --- Bill Parcells - ( New Window )
CM  
JonC : 7/16/2011 2:23 pm : link
good post, agreed.
I thought O'hara and Barry Stokes were acquired together  
Big Blue '56 : 7/16/2011 2:31 pm : link
via trade
56  
GMANinDC : 7/16/2011 2:34 pm : link
They were all FA's..Peter King killed the Giants for picking them up. He said if they weren't good enought to play in Cleveland, why would the Giants sign them..
Blue  
GMANinDC : 7/16/2011 2:36 pm : link
That has nothing to do with it..Most of the teams that won the SNB the last 5 years are wuick passing teams, (Saints and Packers). They utilize 3 step drops and quick slants. Not a lot of pressure on the OL..

Pittsbugh fits in the mold of the Giants and they put premium stock in their OL..
Ok, thanks..  
Big Blue '56 : 7/16/2011 2:37 pm : link
Insert FA instead of trade in my post about our SB, non-first round OL I directed to Curtis about his point
Age doesn't translate into ineffectiveness  
Mike in Long Beach : 7/16/2011 3:16 pm : link
But it does mean vulnerability. Going to be a feast or famine year with this group.
Every  
Paul in Brooklyn : 7/16/2011 3:28 pm : link
team has a bunch of 'question mark' guys with potential as back ups. The group that the Giants have hasn't proven itself to be any better than the group any other team has.
The solution is simple  
oipolloi : 7/16/2011 3:52 pm : link
bench these guys and start all rookies.



GMANinDC nailed it  
Optimus-NY : 7/16/2011 4:06 pm : link
Quote:
Blue
GMANinDC : 2:36 pm
That has nothing to do with it..Most of the teams that won the SB the last 5 years are quick passing teams, (Saints and Packers). They utilize 3 step drops and quick slants. Not a lot of pressure on the OL..


The Saints in particular come to mind with their quick releases and 3 step drops in 2009. A good O-Line allows you to any and everything though, which is why it's wise to invest in that unit, especially via the early portion of the draft.
Curtis  
BSIMatt : 7/16/2011 5:55 pm : link
What I meant was at this point in time we really don't truly know if Smith will be an upgrade over Columbo. I wasn't saying that Dallas shouldn't address their need at tackle.
As of right now  
fanatic : 7/16/2011 6:32 pm : link
the Dallas offensive line is Free, Kosier, Gurode, Davis, and Smith.

Once the CBA is signed Dallas will definately resign Doug Free, most likely release Leonard Davis, and choose not to resign Kyle Kosier.

To create cap space Dallas is said to also be releasing Barber, Colombo, and possibly Newman. We'll see about Newman.

It has been said that Dallas will also restructure the contracts of Romo, Ware, Austin, and possibly Williams to create further cap space.

With this cap space Dallas intends to sign a guard, DE, FS, and SS.

Since he was born in Dallas and went to Texas, Justin Blalock has been rumored to be the guard that Dallas is most interested in signing.

If this were to happen the Dallas OL would be Free, Blalock, Gurode, Holland or Arkin, and Smith. If Arkin should win the starting job the average age for the Dallas OL would be 25.8 years, or one of the youngest in the NFL.

Under this scenario, the transformation of the Dallas OL would be very dramatic.

Jason Garrett doesnt want OLmen that are plodders. He wants OLmen that have good feet and can block in space. Dallas drafted three OLmen this year and all have good lateral movement.
Last year Dallas' line was a mess with no backups in sight  
JohnB : 7/16/2011 6:33 pm : link
thus they took an OL in the 1st.

The Giants are in a much better shape this year than the Cowboys were last year. The Giants have quality AND depth, should the starters go down. Yes it is a concern but Betty and Booth played well when they started last year.
Dallas and Giants OL play  
jwowcm : 7/16/2011 10:07 pm : link
is different, so the comparison may not be "spot on".

Giants OL play demands more coordination between each player (zone blocking) while Dallas is more physical.

above is very poor description, but based on what I have read, it may take a more experienced player to be a fit for Giants while other teams can get away with a more physical younger player.
I'm not so sure what age means....  
BillKo : 7/17/2011 12:56 am : link
would you rather be younger, and suck?

This line is still a good one...it will be tweaked next year certainly.

But it's good enough to still win.

Plus, OL play well into their thirties.

In fact, the oldest guy, McKenzie, was very good last year.
link to zone blocking  
jwowcm : 7/17/2011 2:44 am : link
see comment in Conclusion

"lot of techniques. It takes many repetitions to get the feel of working together as a unit"

It takes time for each player and the unit to come together, rookies and players with a little time may not be ready for the responsibility or have the techniques down to be starters.
Link - ( New Window )
another link to zone blocking  
jwowcm : 7/17/2011 3:04 am : link
some key points...

"don't need the big, tough guys found from the most elite colleges high in the draft to build a good group. "

"It makes RBs easier to get. You don't need the most expensive, high round picks. You just need a "one cut" runner"


Link - ( New Window )
Beatty's the key, at least in the short term..  
Klaatu : 7/17/2011 10:29 am : link
He wasn't drafted to back anybody up, he was drafted to start at left tackle. He makes it possible to move Diehl inside (and save the Giants some money), or over to the right side if need be. If Beatty's good enough to start at LT, the Giants will be in good shape.

I wonder how much O'Hara has left in the tank, though? He's in the last year of his contract, and I doubt the Giants are going to offer him a new one (I figure he'll retire and go into broadcasting). I wonder if his replacement is already on the roster?
The OL seemed to take a step back when O'Hara returned last year.  
arcarsenal : 7/17/2011 11:03 am : link
I worry that he's going to be a weak link.
Agree w Klaat and whatshisface just above, er sorry? - brainfart!  
BlueLou : 7/17/2011 11:36 am : link
Beatty should be a heck of a lot better than just "OK" because he's the Giants' biggest investment on the OL for the last several years, an he's got the raw ability to be a Pro-Bowl grade OLT. Whether or not he has the head and heart for it is the question...

After Beatty, IMO Koets is the biggest ? The Giants have developed him very patiently over several years to be the heir apparent behind O'Hara. He played OK last year, but again "OK" isn't a very good return for the years the Giants have held onto and developed Adam.

Boothe was a nice surprise for me last year, and I'd love to keep him around as a quality backup at all the interior OL positions. IMO he's overmatched by quick DEs on the outside.
They didn't trust Beatty last year  
BigBlueCane : 7/17/2011 4:23 pm : link
and stuck Andrews in there. They immediately went back to O'Hara for some strange reason.

I don't the depth on the OL is as good as people think it is in the minds of the Coaches.
Beatty's injjury  
BSIMatt : 7/17/2011 4:50 pm : link
did nothing to help his cause. It would have been more interesting to see how they filled the vacated LT spot had Beatty never suffered the injury in early September. I think that really set him back.
considering the late start it may be the year to allow steroids  
alligatorpie : 7/17/2011 4:56 pm : link
.




joking


.
...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 7/17/2011 5:02 pm : link
The OL is the biggest concern/? mark heading into the season. I really have no idea how it's going to shake out; hopefully guys stay healthy & are able to produce, but who the hell knows?
...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 7/17/2011 5:04 pm : link
Agree with Arc about O'Hara; TC made a mistake (though I see where he was coming from; just didn't work out) inserting O'Hara back into the starting lineup prior to the 12/19 Eagles game. The OL was at its best last season when Seubert was at center.
Just to keep the record straight  
WillieYoung : 7/18/2011 2:48 pm : link
Koets is signed through 2013 and played center, not guard, last year when O'hara was out.
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