You're penciling in a guy who took how many shots to play in how limited of time? When he's healthy, he's one of the best in the game. I just don't see how he can be counted on to be healthy, and clearly he has issues with how much of a pay cut we asked him to take.
So with virtually no offseason, late start to training camp, and losing 2 veteran offensive lineman...you guys tend to think Diehl will be moved to guard and the Giants will start Beaty (sill an unknown) to protect Eli's blindside. All this when we are in a "win now" mode.
Nope..... Diehl, ? , Bass, Snee, McKenzie.
I think the Q is going to be Koets , Boothe or Seubert.
both Beatty and Andrews have played LT in this system. Diehl has played both G and T extensively. Beatty is now in his third year and should be ready if necessary.
Diehl is not the ideal LT and has never had great LT feet in pass pro. Reese has even alluded to this himself.
Unless we don't sign or keep anyone else (incl Andrews) AND Beatty severely underwhelms, Diehl is probably not our starting LT this year.
but if he did, I highly doubt he's the starter here. Whether Andrews believes this or not, his best role is as the 6th OL (goalline) or the super sub off the bench. He can't take the abuse that a full time starter absorbs.
We keep hearing about his ballerina feet and tremendous athleticism. He has been in the system for two years. Either the lights come on or they don't. Time to find out what we have.
it's his ideal position, he doesn't have enough foot speed to protect the blindside
So the Giants have 4/5 of a really large O-Line, just have to fill the LT (possibly an Andrews restructure?...although Andrews isn't a natural LT either, he is also a guard)
An O-Line of Beatty-Diehl-Baas-Snee-McKenzie is more of a mashing unit than an athletic unit where you can run fancy pulling plays with your C and Guards
He was a beastly center at Michigan, but played guard for the Niners and was OK at that position (not great, but serviceable).
Center is his natural position, that is why he had a breakout year with the Niners last year. Baas is also a very big center at 6'4", 330 lbs so he really helps with QB sneaks on 4th and inches, 3rd and inches, and can help Jacobs in short yardage
"An O-Line of Beatty-Diehl-Baas-Snee-McKenzie is more of a mashing...."
I don't think we've seen a lot "mashing" from Beatty. He looks like more of a finesse guy to me. Size does not necessarily equate to masher.
Therefore, imo, the reason he hasn't solidified a spot yet is that he is still learning technique, and doesn't have the animal spirit to justify starting him on physical effectiveness alone.
As expected Jerry Reese and the FO have their plan
Baas is an upgrade over anyone we had at the C position the last two seasons. He will stabilize the front of the pocket when Eli drops back and punch guys in the mouth when we go to the ground attack. In his prime right now and has added value having played OG while cutting his teeth as a pro. Top notch signing addresses one of our 3 glaring needs. Have to think signing a feature tailback and a starting TE are next up.
surely you're old enough to remember the days when a player at an important position didn't sniff the field for several years. Now it's, he's been in the system for 2 (count em, two f'n years), it's high time he showed it or he'll damn well see the door. (yeah, I took liberty with your words)
Granted, this is his year to step up to the plate and vie for the job.
There are a couple of things that I've learned on this thread
since my last post. I guess that those of you who swear Baas is a better Center than Guard convinced me that the answer at Guard does not include Baas.
I also think that Beatty is probably going to be fine this year. It is only his 3rd year and he did miss a big chunk of the season after starting the season as the extra/swing tackle against Carolina. The assumption is that he is likely just about there.
However, as I said earlier (and in an earlier thread yesterday) he must beat David Diehl and that is NOT an easy task. It says nothing about Beatty's ability and everthing about Diehl's focus, work ethic, and willingness to do whatever it takes to rise to the challenge in front of him. I don't think he's going to go meekly to guard by any means. This is only GOOD for the Giants and not some indictment of Beatty at this stage in his very young career.
Instant upgrade over O`Hara. You now have a power running offense. Assuming Bradshaw takes more money and heads to Miami, we should look at LeRon McClain or Ronnie Brown, and Vonta Leach, and morph into a beast mode offense.
Defense's pull in their safeties? NP over the top to Nicks or Burress or Manningham from the slot in 3rd down.
We could potentially be unstoppable with that kind of size and power. Speed? Eh not so much, but pure brute strength, there would be a lot of decleaters dealt from the offense.
the development of this line. I'm not sure who the starters will be - I'm not sure even the team knows at this point. It's such a criticl function of a successful team and one that must work as a unit. They'll figure it out.
and was the guy to go after (patting myself selfishly on the back). Kalil is too expensive. The next most logical guy is Baas. He's going to be the Center for this football team for the next 4 or 5 years, no questions asked. DD is most likely going to LG now with Beatty looking like the heir apparent to LT. He's got the feet for it.
One of his early moves was to solidify the Jags' OT spots when he was there. He drafted Boselli to play LT, and signed Leon Searcy to be the RT. Similarly, with the Giants one his early moves (2005) was to sign K-Mac. The man knows what he's doing with the O-Line, unlike Accorsi.
Something strange was afoot at the Circle K once both Seubert and O'Hara were cut. Those moves were made once Baas was in the bag on the low, then announced today. No coincidence to this signing and those moves at all. 2 injured players were essentially moved for a Prime Time player in his prime at their one need position of Center. Great job. Can't wait to see how Coach Flaherty's work with this guy makes him even better.
Diehl knows the deal. It's the same as last year. It's not whether Beatty can beat out Diehl at tackle. It's whether B at T and D at G are a better combo than D at T and whoever else at G. Anyhow, I thought Diehl was amenable to switching to G.
I'm pretty sure Diehl has been pretty vocal about seeing himself as a tackle. His play at guard last preseason spoke volumes too. Not saying he won't, but just that I doubt he will be that excited about the switch.
Larry: Diehls back account is doing most of the talking
I doubt that they resign Kareem next year. They'll just slide DD over to that side of the line. DD is like our Bruce Matthews: he plays all over the O-Line (except for Center of course), and is good--to varying degrees of course--wherever he plays.
The LG for 2012 may either be Petrus, a FA signing next year, or a high draft choice (a la Snee in 2004). Just my read on how things project in the near future.
Can't tell if this was posted already, but here's more on Baas
As with my post on Aubrayo Franklin the majority of my statistics and rankings will come from Pro Football Focus. Again I can't use every player listed, so to keep the comparison fair I'm limiting it to centers who took at least 700 snaps, since that seems to be the minimum amount for a starter.
Overall rankings
1.) Matt Birk
2.) Nick Mangold
3.) Chris Myers
4.) Jeff Saturday
5.) Brad Meester
12.) David Baas
Pretty impressive for a guy who's never played center before and who didn't practice at that position in the off-season. He came in and managed to rank 12th out of all centers in the league in his first year as a starting center.
Run blocking
1.) Nick Mangold
2.) Matt Birk
3.) Chris Myers
4.) Brad Meester
5.) Todd McClure
11.) David Baas
Again pretty impressive considering that as a guard in 2009 PFF ranked him as only the 68th best guard in the league vs the run, which is basically the bottom 1/3rd. Now he's in the top 1/3rd of centers, almost breaking top 10.
Screen Blocking
1.) J.D. Walton
2.) Andre Gurod
3.) Chris Myers
4.) Scott Wells
5.) David Baas
I don't know about you but I did see a significant improvement in our screen blocking last season compared to 2009--it looks as if Baas was a big contributor to that success.
Pass Blocking
1.) Jeff Saturday
2.) Matt Birk
3.) Lyle Sendlein
4.) Nick Mangold
5.) Andre Gurod
23.) David Baas
Again, not exactly surprising given last season's results. Also not surprising since he had a rookie at LG (and normally guards help the center out, not the other way around), an inconsistent blocker at RG, and a rookie at RT.
Looking at free agent centers David Baas might just be the best available center. The team approached him last year about an extension, and he does have a playbook so it seems to me that he's lock to return.
to get younger on the O-Line, and better specifically at Center. This is a business, and a cruel one for those who are no longer in good enough shape to warrant a commitment at the expense of the team's opportunity to better themselves. Seriously, AP: go play Canasta or something and leave the GMing to the GM. Help the team by putting in a good word to the players who want to come here if you want to help the team so much.
Ohara qb'd the offensive line and was able to pull well. Not sure how Baas compares to Ohara re: the latter.
It was a necessary move - but it's easy to overlook the value Ohara brougt to the team after he has a few injury riddled seasons and age and the wear and tear of the game took their toll.
I can't see how getting younger on the line, with someone with his size and strength who has started every game the last two seasons isn't a major upgrade over O'Hara.
Baas played Guard for three years at Michigan and Center for one year.
I do admit I don't know anything about Bass, but what I've read here it's almost a no brainer. Addresses a very big issue. We just improved the o-line which was a major need and definitely improved the short yardage part of the game. With Snee and McKenzie we have just transformed from a finesse to a power line.
It would appear they have decided to focus on Babin for now. Which is fine I think Edwards is the better player. But there were reports that a realtor was putting a portfolio together for Edwards. We'll see I guess.
Nope..... Diehl, ? , Bass, Snee, McKenzie.
I think the Q is going to be Koets , Boothe or Seubert.
Diehl is not the ideal LT and has never had great LT feet in pass pro. Reese has even alluded to this himself.
Unless we don't sign or keep anyone else (incl Andrews) AND Beatty severely underwhelms, Diehl is probably not our starting LT this year.
Another team may find this out the hard way.
The Giants ran for a ton of yardage and Eli Manning was barely touched
We keep hearing about his ballerina feet and tremendous athleticism. He has been in the system for two years. Either the lights come on or they don't. Time to find out what we have.
So the Giants have 4/5 of a really large O-Line, just have to fill the LT (possibly an Andrews restructure?...although Andrews isn't a natural LT either, he is also a guard)
An O-Line of Beatty-Diehl-Baas-Snee-McKenzie is more of a mashing unit than an athletic unit where you can run fancy pulling plays with your C and Guards
And I'm betting their pass pro under Flaherty will still be pretty good too.
JerseyJoe : 11:11 am
with FA O-lineman. Ron Stone,OHara,McKensie etc.
Dont forget the previous line group, where Zeigler, Brown, and Parker helped us to an NFC crown.
Center is his natural position, that is why he had a breakout year with the Niners last year. Baas is also a very big center at 6'4", 330 lbs so he really helps with QB sneaks on 4th and inches, 3rd and inches, and can help Jacobs in short yardage
Very underrated signing by Reese
I don't think we've seen a lot "mashing" from Beatty. He looks like more of a finesse guy to me. Size does not necessarily equate to masher.
Therefore, imo, the reason he hasn't solidified a spot yet is that he is still learning technique, and doesn't have the animal spirit to justify starting him on physical effectiveness alone.
Granted, this is his year to step up to the plate and vie for the job.
I also think that Beatty is probably going to be fine this year. It is only his 3rd year and he did miss a big chunk of the season after starting the season as the extra/swing tackle against Carolina. The assumption is that he is likely just about there.
However, as I said earlier (and in an earlier thread yesterday) he must beat David Diehl and that is NOT an easy task. It says nothing about Beatty's ability and everthing about Diehl's focus, work ethic, and willingness to do whatever it takes to rise to the challenge in front of him. I don't think he's going to go meekly to guard by any means. This is only GOOD for the Giants and not some indictment of Beatty at this stage in his very young career.
Defense's pull in their safeties? NP over the top to Nicks or Burress or Manningham from the slot in 3rd down.
We could potentially be unstoppable with that kind of size and power. Speed? Eh not so much, but pure brute strength, there would be a lot of decleaters dealt from the offense.
Something strange was afoot at the Circle K once both Seubert and O'Hara were cut. Those moves were made once Baas was in the bag on the low, then announced today. No coincidence to this signing and those moves at all. 2 injured players were essentially moved for a Prime Time player in his prime at their one need position of Center. Great job. Can't wait to see how Coach Flaherty's work with this guy makes him even better.
The LG for 2012 may either be Petrus, a FA signing next year, or a high draft choice (a la Snee in 2004). Just my read on how things project in the near future.
As with my post on Aubrayo Franklin the majority of my statistics and rankings will come from Pro Football Focus. Again I can't use every player listed, so to keep the comparison fair I'm limiting it to centers who took at least 700 snaps, since that seems to be the minimum amount for a starter.
Overall rankings
1.) Matt Birk
2.) Nick Mangold
3.) Chris Myers
4.) Jeff Saturday
5.) Brad Meester
12.) David Baas
Pretty impressive for a guy who's never played center before and who didn't practice at that position in the off-season. He came in and managed to rank 12th out of all centers in the league in his first year as a starting center.
Run blocking
1.) Nick Mangold
2.) Matt Birk
3.) Chris Myers
4.) Brad Meester
5.) Todd McClure
11.) David Baas
Again pretty impressive considering that as a guard in 2009 PFF ranked him as only the 68th best guard in the league vs the run, which is basically the bottom 1/3rd. Now he's in the top 1/3rd of centers, almost breaking top 10.
Screen Blocking
1.) J.D. Walton
2.) Andre Gurod
3.) Chris Myers
4.) Scott Wells
5.) David Baas
I don't know about you but I did see a significant improvement in our screen blocking last season compared to 2009--it looks as if Baas was a big contributor to that success.
Pass Blocking
1.) Jeff Saturday
2.) Matt Birk
3.) Lyle Sendlein
4.) Nick Mangold
5.) Andre Gurod
23.) David Baas
Again, not exactly surprising given last season's results. Also not surprising since he had a rookie at LG (and normally guards help the center out, not the other way around), an inconsistent blocker at RG, and a rookie at RT.
Looking at free agent centers David Baas might just be the best available center. The team approached him last year about an extension, and he does have a playbook so it seems to me that he's lock to return.
Ten Ton Hammer : 12:05 pm
That "rookie at LG" referred to in your latter post was Mike Iupati, whom I'm sure without checking made the all-rookie team for 2010....
Are we getting an OG or is it set
Diehl-Booth-Baas-Snee-McK
Also, the follow up post wasn't written by me. It was an article excerpt.
Ohara qb'd the offensive line and was able to pull well. Not sure how Baas compares to Ohara re: the latter.
It was a necessary move - but it's easy to overlook the value Ohara brougt to the team after he has a few injury riddled seasons and age and the wear and tear of the game took their toll.
Baas played Guard for three years at Michigan and Center for one year.
Don't forget that Petreus is a decent backup.
Info on Baas at Michigan - ( New Window )