Choice and option routes.

i'd guess 1/2 Cover means either Cover 1 or Cover 2(and prob only with zone underneath and not man under) run seam.

This diagram just screams of micromanagement and an overly complicated scheme. I'm actually a Gilbride fan (based on production), but I can't help but think that we'd be an even more potent offense if the focus was more on simplicity and execution rather than options and reaction.

Besides, don't you think it might become pretty easy for CBs to bait a WR into a particular route by setting up their hips a certain way or bluffing inside/outside coverage? By now there's probably more tape on the Giants' offense than our own WRs have experience in the system, so I would imagine any clever DC has picked up tells within the system.

Not sure I follow on the "micromanagement" argument. Overly complicated, maybe.

As for the 'baiting', that may be the case if the options were the same for all plays. What you see here are the options for only one play call, so the bating would only apply if they also knew the play call, or if there are tendencies across multiple plays.

..and that simplifying the offense might benefit us. But you guys also have to understand that if you work these option routes correctly, they're incredibly difficult to defend.

Eli is a very bright QB. It's no small feat to make these reads in a matter of seconds with defensive linemen and linebackers flying towards you. When he and the WR make the same read, the defense is going to have an incredibly hard time stopping it. That's the drawback, though.. Eli and the WR's have to make the same reads.. otherwise you see Eli throw the ball to a spot where the WR is supposed to be and there's no one home except for a DB. And then you see the INT's.

...but D) sounds like cover 1 zone since it mentions sitting down, and if its 1 or 2 deep man under, then how's that diff't from the M2M option I wonder?

it works both ways. The fact that our offense is the way it is is most likely the reason for our success as well. Despite our QB having turnover moments at times, this offense has been ridiculously good under Gilbride and Coughlin's system. If we were to simply cut the turnovers in half, we'd be a top 3 offense. Scary isn't it?

It's micromanagement in the same way that baseball managers that call pitches from the bench are micromanagers. Rather than trust that you have the correct personnel to do their jobs, you go that extra step to make sure that you are managing every detail of their task.

That's what I meant by micromanagement.

As far as the baiting - I realize this is just one set of routes, but I would have to imagine that the logic behind it extends to several sets of routes. In other words, if hips in is the key for an outside route (because of an advantage gained), then it's probably always the key for an outside route. Sometimes it will be an out, other times it might be a flag, etc., but it will always be an outside route. If you can bait the WR/QB into a read based on where you know your safety help is rolling, for example, you might have the right guy in place to catch an incompletion that the WR tipped into the air, right?

That's the double edge sword. When it's bad it's bad, when things click it looks like the offense against Dallas at Dallas, when we were shredding their secondary at one stage in the game. I consider this type of scheme a boom or bust type offense. When it's good it's very good, when it's bad it looks like they never played the sport before.

I have a lot of other stuff but it takes forever to scan and upload. Maybe one day I get to meet people on here I can bring some stuff for others to check out.

But how do you have option routes without micromanaging? These options are not always to get that one receiver open. All the options need to work in coordination, and the QB needs to know what the receivers are going to do. How do you do that without micromanagement?

Quote:

Gatorade Shawn in Jersey : 2:22 pm But how do you have option routes without micromanaging?

That's kind of my point. You don't.

more an overly complicated than micromanaging thing?

ain't nothing about football that's democratic.
They call them the routes, but the choices are pre-determined.

The WR runs what he's told to run or sits.

Call it what you want, but I prefer tyranny.

If the DB's hips are outside and the WR and QB read it correctly and run a post, the idea is that he will not have time to recover....because his hips are outside.

It isn't like it is arbitrary. There's a reason for reacting that way.

DB's other than HOFers that try to bait QB's in the NFL don't last very long.

Off topic - I doubt that play is from Gilbride's CFL days. there would be 12 players instead of 11.

Thanks for starting an interesting discussion.

from the point of the DESIGN...

but once the ball is snapped there is no management. it just the receivers and the QB making choices. you can't manage the choices.


they are not robots.


and again this is why i just dislike this system. I'm all for the "its the greatest offense we've ever had" but I just am of the school of thought that with this personnel we'd have even MORE success in a different system.

but alas we will never know so oh well.

it's too complicated until we see someone else's playbook. For all we know this is vanilla by comparison.

The results indicate that it's not too much to ask of the players.

this system has more to do with roster turnover and the fact that most of your backups are younger players. It works when you have experienced vets who have played together, but what's your plan B when one of them get hurt or leave via free agency?

We've heard players say in interviews that it is a more complex offense then other teams in the league.

I got to a clinic late once and didn't have a chance to pre-view whose sessions I would attend.
I walked into the first conference room door I got to and the speaker had already started. He's using an overhead projector and he's got some kind of 4-3 on the board and he's drawing in his DBs. I start making notes and then take a closer look and see 5 DBs...It took about ten seconds for me to realize I had walked into a session being given by a CFL secondary coach.

I just went to the bar until I could review an itenarary.

IMO there are some things that a wide receiver who made it through college football should be able to pick up on and follow through with. That includes making adjusts mid-route based on the coverage. If it turns out that he isn't then you adjust the routes you give him accordingly by removing the options. I'm not an expert but that seems to be a common adjustment for receivers to make. Maybe not in the detail or the manner that is in the page above but fairly common.

Ok, next question, so the WR has his playbook watered down, removing some options. Does the QB then have to 'un-learn' the options, or make changes to based on who's in the game?

here is a link to a WSJ article from Dec 2010... many comments by WR Michael Clayton.


WSJ - Giants Receivers Need PHD in Route Running - ( New Window )

I have seen plays called where we had brand new guys on the team or a defensive back playing offense and the QB would call the play and give the newbies their options. If you do it like that then it's easy to remember who doesn't have an option. But I have no idea what Eli and company do.

Keep in mind, I'm an offensive lineman who like Dorgan and AP said doesn't really pay attention to the receiver stuff besides if it's a 3-step drop or do I have to chop block on a quick slant

the first option above should be "route"

there's no choice or options, it's not micromanaged?

If we call a three digit number that means the X is running an out, the Z running a deep cross and the Y dragging, it's not micromanaged, but if we call a three digit number that means the three receivers have options when their particular route is doomed to failure, it's micromanaged?

Got it. Makes perfect fucking sense to me.

Thanks I have so much crap and some scanned stuff I found, I thought it was from this book. I used to use photobucket but because of the bandwidth issues, I switched, and so deleted the account so most of my stuff got deleted including stuff like this and game breakdowns. So I forgot where this page came from.

Thanks for that link. I guess that answers the question regarding the comparison to other teams.

I'd heard somewhere that the one Norv Turner uses is fairly simple by NFL standards...I wonder if that has something to do with his success.

That said, I don't find the concept described in the play shown here to be incredibly complex. I understand it's only one play of hundreds, but I wonder if when looking at it as a whole the concepts make sense...like playing a bunch of different notes on a guitar to make an entire song.

I don't know if that comparison is apt because I'm not an NFL player and I'm a shitty guitarist, but I'd be curious to see the entire playbook just the same.

It boggles my mind the amount of information Eli has to process. In some way it's frustrating as fan, because at this point I keep learning how much I don't know and how little I can accurately analyze based on lack of knowledge and views from the TV.

Quote:

"That's what gives you a chance. Otherwise you're a play behind," Giants offensive coordinator Kevin Gilbride said. "If I have a curl route and you're in a 2 zone, you got me. If you're in two man, you got me. But if I have (something) which allows me to convert, I got you."

or theory being that any defense can be beat because of the choice and option routes associated with this offense. So if they do this, we do that, if they do that, we do something else.

It's great in theory and works well when everyone is on the same page. But if people can't grasp it the offense looks like a shit show.

Who do you think has to learn more stuff from the Playbook besides the QB?

I always thought that the Running Backs had more stuff to learn. Receivers have to know the routes and blocking assignments on running plays. Conversely, backs have to know the running plays and their assignments on pass plays which could be a block or a route. Which is why I thought they had the heaviest learning assignment..

one of the more complicated system, but I think the Patriots might have even more options.

Everybody is running option routes, but we're running more than most.

The WRs and QBs who come from colleges that run more traditional NFL offenses adapt easier than the kids who come from spread option teams or teams with pared down offenses. It's no mystery why Steve Smith picked this up pretty quickly. He'd had a primer in it in college.
Manning on the other hand, ran a very simple offense at Michigan and struggled mightily to pick it up.

each unit will scream foul, and they have the most to learn.

TEs have to learn their routes, and if they are flexed out, then the inside WR routes, and then all the running plays and assignments.

WRs have tons of stuff to learn, from landmarks to routes, to choice and option routes.

OL I think has a lot to learn from pass pro and run blocking and they have to know how to block all the defense IDs are defined per the OC. So I would guess them, but again it depends on the system.

I'd say look at the system, and then go from there. For example, the Air Raid is very easy. Most if not all the blocking is BOB. They barely even run the ball, and so just have to get down pass pro. So it is important to recognize the system.

glad i read the wsj :)

though I'm on the side that thinks this completely shows the complexity of the offense with just one page.

im no coach, and really have no football experience, but the problem here is that the reads that the receivers make are not always pre snap reads and can change. additionally, for the play to go "right" the QB and the reciever have to see the exact same thing.


this drives at the exact thing I hate about our offense more than anything else. many passes that get thrown wind up having MULTIPLE defense men in the immediate area of the catch. And if the ball is not caught it increase the chance for an INT exponentially. To wit there is less chance for a receiver to make a catch in open space and room to run.

hence my seemingly dead horse saying of "too little room for error" in this offense.

looking at that play Anish posted, you can easily see how 2 or even 3 receivers can wind up in a same vicinity attracting 3+ defense men...


Additionally, I feel our offense relies on our players to beat their players straight up. its designed to move to spots that hopefully won't be covered based on reads and body language etc.. ok.

I like how other offenses key in to specifically create "mismatches" on the offense and make them the primary targets...

but such is life and so will the season go ill be here all year long :)

semi-pro. I think the WRs in a system like this have more to pick up than the RBs. You can usually devise a set of rules for a RB to commit to memory that will get him through most protection schemes.

dwayne jarret come from USC also? how's that workin for him

How about those HS WR rules.

MOFO- Post
MOFC- Go

I am sure after mini camps and OTAs Mario Manningham can execute that! : P

exactly!

We put our first option routes in high school in 1986 off of our play action pass plays. They were all pre-snap reads and dirt simple. My best X ran a fade or a post no matter what the read was, so he was worthless....his back up couldn't run for shit, so he ran a stop our out everytime. Our Z knew what we wanted, always ran the right route, but couldn't catch the clap in a whorehouse. Our Y was our best tackle.

We ran the ball that year. A lot!

It was amazing how much better we got at the next year when we had three moderately talented kids who were of reasonable intelligence. By '95 we had a lot of option routes built in and by and large, they worked.

Hahaha now that's funny. How was your OL and running game?



I respect Gilbride and the system, I just wish at times we could get guys to make more plays without over thinking.

Just look at the above rules. At the very end it should say, O by the way, if your QB is getting blitzes, disregard,

Plan A,B,C, and D, and break off your route and run a 3 year arrow route.

That was where Hagan messed up on during the Eagles game. Eli saw the blitz throw it to nowhere and Hagan just kept running. That's the shit that makes me want to throw something at the tv.

You can almost feel what's going on in Hagan's mind. Trying to run the right route, catch the ball and get a key first down, and you get so into the zone, that when your QB gets blitzed, you don't see it, and you keep running what you thought was right.

a lot of offensive line play is just hit the big guy in front of you. Since I was a basketball player in college I was able to pick it really easy. Once I changed to a top team I realized what a real system looked like.

Right now I'm playing in a moderately complex (for me at least) zone blocking system based on West Virginia Offense. And speaking of Big On Big, often as the backside tackle on play-action, I have a choice of taking a zone step or staying with the defensive end no matter what. I always choose BOB. I think the line coach once mentioned my tendancies to me in practice but I haven't been really criticized for not zone stepping

I just want to reiterate shawn's post.

Understood,
Shawn in Jersey : 2:58 pm
It boggles my mind the amount of information Eli has to process. In some way it's frustrating as fan, because at this point I keep learning how much I don't know and how little I can accurately analyze based on lack of knowledge and views from the TV.


All this stuff in a matter of seconds, it's nuts.

1) The QB has only three possible progressions, all of which have one WR has the principal read. The 2nd & 3rd receivers reads look to be determined pre-snap and are very similar. The QB actions here are not simple but are also not that complicated in theory.

3) I understand that the 1st WR makes a decision on the 7th step. Because that 7th step (a WR going forward) will occur before the QB' 5th step (a QB going backward), these actions will be closely synchronized which means that the 1st WR will be making their cut at about the same time as the QB will be throwing the ball. This means to me that the QB will be able to visually confirm where the 1st WR will be going as the ball is being thrown.

Let me know what I am getting wrong here.

then becomes... with this WR and the 7th step... how do you know what route he is running unless you stare him down because the route gets determined on the 7th step of the WR pattern... not alot of "timing" there.

how is there a "progression" of reads if receivers are updating their routes throughout the course of the play.

seems really counter intuitive almost... which is why we are always our own worst enemy... you wonder why.

I'd rather the other teams just make better plays than us rather than us just blow ourselves up half the time.

its more frustrating... the other way you can tip your cap and hate the other team. this way you break your remote and hate YOUR team...

ugh!

I thought of the birddogging question but assumed that an experience QB would be moving his head around and checking his other options as he back peddling.

Quote:

so if dorgan : 2:56 pm there's no choice or options, it's not micromanaged? If we call a three digit number that means the X is running an out, the Z running a deep cross and the Y dragging, it's not micromanaged, but if we call a three digit number that means the three receivers have options when their particular route is doomed to failure, it's micromanaged? Got it. Makes perfect fucking sense to me.

I guess the part I neglected to mention is that the complexity of the options feels to me, as a layman, like a way to have complete control from the sideline, rather than allowing the QB to check off based on the defense. Now, obviously, Eli has what appears to be autonomy with regards to audibles, so I fully admit that I'm probably wrong. I was merely stating how it seemed to me, not how it actually was.

Clearly, there is a level of expertise on this thread that I'm not quite on par with. I want to reiterate that I'm a Gilbride fan, based on the results, but I just have the (uninformed) opinion that there might be room for improvement by simplifying the scheme to some degree.

you didn't miss anything.

When these things look complicated, draw out the three routes and reason it out. Doing it mentally can make it look worse than it really is.

But wasn't this supposed to be Coughlin's offense and Gilbride is just calling the plays? That's always been what we have been led to believe.

thing gets overblown by announcers when an interception is thrown but "bird dogging" is something that happens on most plays. Z is the primary and the QB will watch him till the 7th step because that is the key to the entire play. How the defense responds to the Z will tell what the coverage is and then based on that the QB will know who is next in his progression. Fans get the feeling that the QBs head is supposed to be whipping all over the field on every play but in reality he will look at the primary for a good while and then progress to usually 1 or 2 other receivers and then a checkdown. Unless the play is specifically design to look off a safety and hold them in a certain spot to open up another route then the QB will be staring down his primary and thats normal.

yeah thats a pretty all encompassing assumption, but my question was more to the point that with the timing type routes you look off the safety on X so you can hit Y on the post

with these routes they have an increased level of change so you don't necessarily know that the Y is gonna hit that post because he could have seen a curl or an out route.

the receivers depths and or amount of time they are being run would then change on ever play during the play seemingly making it impossible to just look off and then chuck to the open guy...

i dunno... who am i :)

understood.

No offense intended. Just making a point, (apparently too strongly). I realize this is a fan board and my perspective as a coach is going to differ with the average fan's perspective.

I forget that at times and get carried away.