Without getting too in depth here, this defense has no faith in its coordinator. We are in week 12 of the season and players have no idea where to lineup. I realize Boley is out, on top of the other losses, Osi is dinged, Tuck is halfway to IR, Rolle is playing CB and we have rookies littering the middle of the field with missed assignments but this defense is 100% lost 3/4 of the way through the season. I hate to be the coordinator hater, but Perry Fewell has absolutely lost this team on defense and its evident in their body language and confusion play in and play out. WHen you don't have faith in your game plan, you play tentatively, almost afraid that what your coach saw may not be what you saw. His plan is most likely too complicated and overwrought with complications when professionals paid to do a job cannot figure out where to lineup on workday #7 of a week.
This is mostly a gut thing I see in the guys, and I know quantifying mood or emotion is foolhardy but I've played under people who seemed overmatched and you don't buy into their philosophy when you what you see on tape is NOT what you are told on the field. His overthinking and timid approach to pressure (please please please read a book on A and B gap pressures and stop trying to blitz off the edge all day when you have 3 pro bowl caliber DEs) is killing this defense. When you see guys not lining up properly and looking confused it is 100% on the man in charge of the defense. As a player you trust what you see and you execute as asked but when you see something that the opponent does that you KNOW will beat you, it just deflates you and you play with that listless look the Giants have had for weeks now. Leaders like Justin Tuck and Corey Webster are looking lost, completely lost and that speaks to their lack of confidence in what they are being asked to do.
I won't sit here and claim to know the scheme we should run or what our talent dictates, but I know full well that trying to pressure a 6-0 QB with a rocket release and speed to burn at WR/RB on the edges is just sheer stupidity. You put your 6-7 and 6-5 DTs in his face and you fire in the A gaps all night long and keep him off balance. You don't blitz Kenny Phillips in the 7 or 8 hole, you don't delay blitz a LB on a loop or a stunt with a DE going wide, you force the issue and you force the offense to contend with you. Fewell is a timid DC who plays on the edges trying like hell to contain everything and not give up the big play but he does not have the LBs or Safeties to pull that off. What he has is a front four and speed at LB that can make a QBs life hell between the center and guard and he chooses to run wide and pressure from the edge which almost never gets home. Don't start your best DE at DT as a gimmick, let him come in later in a drive, fresh like Tuck did in his early years and wear down the interior OL. You don't bang a DE into 330lb guards all day and assume it will work.
Fewell is quite simply overmatched and over thinking his defense to the point that players are not only confused but seemingly without faith in their play calls and without faith in each other. Players are smarter than we want to give credit for, they have a clue what will work and it is clear that this group no longer trusts Fewell to select a sound game plan and it is woefully evident in their play. Go find 10 DCs in teh NFL and lend them Tuck, Osi, JPP, Canty, Joseph, Bernard, Webster, Ross, Rolle, Kiwi, Phillips and see how happy you'd make them. You wouldn't rush 3 and drop 8, you wouldn't start DEs at DT, you'd find a base that works and you punish the offense from guard to guard until they were forced to max protect or their QB flubbed the game away. Perry Fewell is coaching scared and over thinking and despite our injuries he has plenty of talent and no fucking idea what to do with it.
That display last night was an utter embarassment, yet again. Not unlike what we suffered against GB last year (and most likely will suffer AGAIN next week).
We have enough horses that a better gameplan could have at least limited the damage. I fully believe that. I don't find NO to have "Better horses" than we do on defense. But they stopped us when they needed to. Mostly because their DC made our QB uncomfortable. Yes they gave up plays and yards, but they didn't play so scared to make it so ridiculously easy.
I'm not saying whether yesterday was the coaches fault, the players fault, the Saints being really good, or all three of those things (which is likely the answer), but does anyone really believe the personnel in 2007 on defense was better than today? That team also had a lot of injuries. It started James Butler and Gibril Wilson at safety (Rolle and Phillips are better than them by quite a bit)...Kiwi was out for the season...our LB unit started Pierce, Mitchell, and Torbor.
Does this look anything even remotely like Spags's defense at all ?? No it doesnt..
Fewell is severely overmatched. He should not be a DC... Secondary coach.. fine.. DC. no.. never..
They would have all the spring to get the basics of the scheme Fewell was planning before hit the practice in the training camp.
With the lockout they had to learn it on the fly and to complicate things the team suffered a ton of injuries.
I still have hope on Fewell (and Coughlin).
Retro, good post. I would disagree somewhat on Reese. I thimk he is trying to upgrade defensive team speed, but it's slow going when you can''t keep those guys on the field.
When Reese took over, one of the actions they took was to get rid of players who were talented but constantly hurt. May be time for that again.
In my opinion, the Giants are absolutely afraid of being aggressive on defense and it is simply making things worse and worse instead of covering up weaknesses.
Spy on Sproles???? That's your rationale for your best run supporting safety to be dropping into the flats where NO ONE was? Why not use your tools to your advantage and put your best SS at his best spot instead of weakening two areas? These guys want to line up and go get it, and last night they didn't ant it was clear as day they were confused. That's on the coordinator 100% of the time. You have a week to drill your team and if what you're concocting slows them down every week with new fancy assignments you're missing the point of playing football.
If you can tackle, run, cover, hit, you can play defense and we have guys still who can do that. I put plenty on the players, but when the defense can't even line up, that is on your coordinator, no matter how you and your "coaching doesn't matter" ilk want to spin it and sit on high in judgement of us little folks who just might know what the hell we're talking about. When this same bunch is playing fast and going forward it's a totally different group and don't think for once second that confidence doesn't come from feeling prepared for your opponent and we had none of it last night. When your coach tells you what to expect and it doesn't happen you instantly doubt your coaching and it has a terrible ripple effect on all around you. I've seen it, I've done it, I've been there and sure it wasn't the NFL but people are people and football players are football players and it doesn't take a PhD to see that our troops were lacking confidence in their play calls and preparation. Once that confidence is gone and you are guessing form play to play, you can have 11 All Pros and they will be beaten like a drum if they don't have confidence in their scheme and what they see.
Spare your talking down for someone who can't run circles around 99% of the people here football wise. I know precisely what I saw last night and I am 100% sure that Fewell game planned scared, coached scared and his players knew it. He is over complicating everything and it's paralyzing a team that stopped a 20+ game Patriot home win streak just 3 weeks ago. Those guys aren't gone, the players don't suddenly stink but you can bet your ass the game plan did.
The only way I can describe how stupid it is to deploy Antrell Rolle differently each week is with the spork. It doesn't work as a spoon or a fork and in fact sucks at both because someone thinks its a cure all when in fact it's just a complete waste. Let your fork be a fork, let your spoon be a spoon and don't try to get too fancy with how to deploy your utensils. Silly sounding I know, but Spork Rolle needs to do what he is good at and that is playing SS, supporting the run and being a ball hawk, not a hybrid OLB in some half baked big nickel that gets your team gashed every time its out there. You can stick a spork in Perry Fewell, unless he decides to let his safeties be safeties, start JPP at END, and let his young LBs go play, cover, blitz and worry about the rest later.
Yes. The Giants, forever, have made personnel decisions for the good of the league and the good of the game (as well as, as best as they can, for the good of the Giants). The INTENT of the Rooney rule is that all those minority interviews are supposed to lead to minority hires.
All teams are under increasing pressure to hire minority coaches. The Giants saw this as a win-win-win (Giants, league, and game). They were wrong about #1, but I'm sure they feel good (still) about #2 and #3.
This is also why "character" plays such a big role in their drafting. They don't DO "thug" in an increasingly thuggish league.
Over-scheming to stop Manning last year
Over-scheming to stop San Fran running game
Over-scheming to stop Darren Sproles
I get you want to take away what your opponent does best, but when you are playing short handed like we are, why not concentrate on what we do well and letting players make plays rather than gettin so friggen cute with the personnel and coverages
I think a lot of that had to do with Boley being out.. Fewell has often said that he's the signal caller and that he's important in being able to get guys into position so I think not having him on the field these past 2 weeks was painfully obvious as opposed to the Pats game and the 49ers game prior to him getting injured. There has been a noticeable difference since he's been out.
Whatever's going on, though.. something needs to change and it needs to change quick. It was pretty clear that not a lot of guys knew what they were supposed to be doing.. and even worse, was that eventually it looked like a lot of them flat out quit.
Fewell's insistence on using Grant all the time is mystifyingly stupid. I can't comprehend his logic.
fewell's got 5 games to unfuck himself from these worse-than-sheridan gameplans.
And if we blow the first dallas game I say fire him then.
Something needs to get figured out this week or it'll be a bloodbath against GB.
The Big Nickel exposes us against the run as a tradeoff for purported strength against the pass. Well, in that package, we're certainly struggling against the run and, wouldn't you know it, we're also struggling against the pass out of that formation as well.
And LTS, it's maddening isn't it? The Deon Grant overuse. Prince Amukamara is healthy and on the active gameday roster. Might be worth a shot at a regular nickel package, eh? Or at the very fucking least against the Packers, if you're petrified of them spreading the field, roll out a Big Dime instead of a Big Nickel.
--this post not stolen from Joey--
Another example of Perry trying to fit the player in his system instead of playing the skill sets of the players in the system......
Rolle as a hybrid OLB?? Tuck as a DT?? Jones/Herzlich playing zone as MLBs???? with your best safety playing OLB???? Kiwi at OLB and not blitzing him??? Cweb and Ross better man to man cover corners and your put them in a cover 2 or cover 3 with 10 yd cushions and no jamming to disrupt timing when you know that the Saints routes are all based on timing???? what part do you guys and I get as die hard fans that a professional NFL DC doesn't???? SMH!!
Coaching matters. It is everything and at fault 100% for every loss, certainly not. But the same people who insisted Tim Lewis was not at fault for anything are now back in full force as the team implodes again.
but NO, we like to read and react on both sides of the ball...it's no wonder we look like shit as a team.
but no matter. Let's accept your premise that we have these wonderfully swift db's. Why would Fewell "coach scared"? lost his mind? Attempting to cover deficiencies that exist solely in his imagination? Bribed? If you are going to accuse an experienced professional football coach of "coaching scared" then it is incumbent on you to explain what he is afraid of.
similarly, why would Fewell move the Spork around when it is so obvious to an authority like yourself that he should be playing the run? Serendipity? Indulging some whim? Punish Rolle for his last interview?
All you have is a case of confirmation bias. You are no different than most of the other fools on here despite your posturing.
And he's infinitely more qualified to pass judgment on a player by evaluating game tape than any of us.
Nice ad hominem
This is the classic coaching vs talent debate that was so prevalent on BBI in the late 90's. This thread is classic BBI.
It's clear to me that the talent is being misused by the DC. The players are better than giving up 50 points to anyone. A job of a coach is to put the players in the best position for them to succeed and playing someone out of position like PF has done is counter to that. If he was OC I'm sure he would be playing Jacobs as fullback.
And then in the blink of a eye four more talented starters go down: Bradshaw, Beatty, Boley (a critical loss) and Tuck, whose head seems to be in a very bad place right now.
If that isn't enough to justify the horrible defense, then add in the ridiculous sight of these rookie linebackers, none of them even worth a middle draft choice, running around in confusion. The front office really screwed the pooch when they didn't sign a veteran linebacker after Goff and Sintim went down.
So I'm no fan of Fewell but stick Thomas, Boley and healthy Tuck back in the lineup and you have a pretty talented defense.
They might have even played hard.
I don't think we will win any game when the objective will be outscoring them.
The Saints couldn't be stopped on offense and their defense is actualy pretty good. Solid D-line. Decent LB's and some good DB's.
On offense the only players I have faith in are Eli, Nicks, and Cruz. Ballard had it 2 weeks ago. Snee hasn't played like we expect a pro-bowl guard to play. Diehl is looking terrible. I guess when we moved him back to Guard he gave up. Beatty is weak, Cole did whatever he wanted. Baas has actually looked decent, havent seen him pass block much but he gets movement on run blocking. Mckenzie has the physical strength still but no speed to pass block.
JPP looks good but he doesn't play DE like I like a DE to. He is a better overall DE than Osi but a lot of plays he is just putting his hands on the tackle and not really rushing. That could be what he is suppose to do so I wont say anything. Tuck when healthy is still good. Osi isn't as good as he was but can still rush the pass decently. DT's are about average. Canty has made some good plays and Joseph is athletic for a DT. Too many injuries at LB to expect much. Williams has looked good, he is a legit every down LB. Herzlich is a 2 down LB, Cant cover the pass to save his life but has great bulk for a run stopping LB. Not having Boley hurts. He was having a great season. Really impressed me.
Ross has 4 int's but gets beat too much, Amukamara has been pretty good. he has made some plays but VS the eagles had Young not been the QB he would have given up a big TD instead of getting the interception. Webster looks like he is declining, he is average at best and cant cover anybody with speed. Phillips and Rolle are decent. Grant has been a big part of our defense.
and you are a guy who generally does not bail on a coaches. so, this post says a lot
Dallas, NO, GB, Chicago. Was there anything that NO did that stood out in their secondary. Dallas is awful. Everyone has thrown on GB this year.
I totally think Webster is miscast playing zone. He was playing at a high level playing man coverage. This defense has him looking like pre SB Webster. Let him play.
Ross is clearly lost in zone, yet Fewell still goes out there in zone. This, in my opinion, and I may be wrong, is what is killing the S play. He has Philips doing nothing but playing to not get beat deep. As a result, he is never close enough to make plays. Is anyone here happy at what Rolle is being asked to do.
You need fast LB's in todays NFL - Boley is that and so is Williams - he just happens to be rookie. If you have LB's who can run, utilize them.
Someone explain to me the benefit of dropping Tuck or JPP in coverage. You weaken the pass rush and they can't cover. Yet we see this game after game after game.
The Ravens have not had a good corner since McCallister, yet they still play man and let their S make plays - same for Pittsburgh.
How many 80 yd drives has this defense given up? If my defense is giving up 25 ppg, I would rather see them attack than not.
The play calls that drive me crazy on offense are the ones that seem to scream "A run is the obvious thing to do here, so let's pass" - when the run is obvious because it's most likely to work. You also hear about TC's offense being at least somewhat harder to learn than other systems. Then, likewise, you see these overly clever packages on defense.
You put it together and it looks like a team mentality - which is all about TC.
That was quite an awesome evisceration.
Not to too our horn here, but the popular opinion on BBI has been right far more than it's been wrong. If most of the people think a coach is in over his head....it's probably the truth.
Fassel was a polarizing figure but more fans thought he was average at best and guess what, he hasn't gotten a job in the NFL and probably never will. All of Fassel's DCs, save for Fox, were bashed around here and they are all out of the NFL. All the guys under Coughlin from Huffnagel to Lewis and Sheridan...same deal.
When we start to panic week after week and have a large sample size to go on concerning an asstistant coach, it's always warranted.
Even with coughlin in 2006, we all felt like he probably needed to change things up, hire some new coaches and maybe even endear himself to today's athlete...some wanted him gone...others were willing to give him another shot. BBI Pretty much nailed it.
If Perry Fewell makes us all eat crow it will be a first. More often than not, we have been dead on accurate with regards to under performing DCs. Sad but true. I trust the overall judgement of this place save for a few looneys. Scary I know.
I didn't read the whole thread.
I've been buried at work since Monday morning and haven't had a chance to spend any time mulling this over.
Joey made a few very good points. The first being the lack of inside pressure.
We were playing against a vertically challenged QB.
You need to get after him up the middle.
DTs aren't getting home? There's a solution.
Use the DTs to pinch the guards, create a gap and send the Mike.
Hell, our Mike can't cover for shit anyway, so you might as well send him. The Mike can't get home in this scenario?
No problem, move Kiwi to middle when you call an A gap blitz and let that freak of nature extend that enormous wingspan upwards and block the midget's passes.
That doesn't work, run the inside scissors with a DT and a LBer. Running the loop stunt with the DL is just too fucking slow with a QB like Brees.
The point is, we need to have back up plans and we need to trust these guys to pull them off.
Perry is a good guy, but has a real problem with trust. He doesn't trust his guys to make a play so he plays it safe.
Won't cut it in HS, won't cut it in college and it damn sure don't cut it in the NFL. You've gotta have answers, and you've got to have balls to call a defense.
You want those guys to trust you, you have to trust them.
It's simple.
He's done this before.
He's also bounced back a few times and followed up a stinker with a good game plan that shows his worth.
He knows the game so it's possible that other nut will drop and he'll improve. But, we're out of time and it's time to get it, or go home.
Any Giant fan worth his salt is pulling for him to rebound and make this work. You might doubt he can do it, but you're still pulling for him.
Back to the salt mines. I'm knee deep in alligators and the fuckers are hungry.
I am in total agree with posters who espose the up the middle on Breese, which is why I so hate the "3 rushers" defense. Against GB, we never got any where close to the QB,and he just stood there for what seemed like a lifetime to pick out a receiver, and if he did scramble it was always to his right, where he threw to a WR who was able to finally break coverage and come back to him due to the time along the sideline. So I just don't understand rushing only three. I also agree that blitzing from the edge didn't do the job either.
Thank You,
SteveMD