Let me make this point before explaining myself. I am not a real good x and o guy like some on this site. So my opinion about Fewell might be based on perception rather than fact.
But it seems to me that Fewell's defense is almost entirely dependent on the front four creating pressure. He doesn't seem as willing or maybe as capable as Spagnuolo was in creating different bliz packages to create pressure.
For most of this past season my lack of confidence in Fewell was justified and shared by most.
However, even after the run began, it seemed to me that there were many games, where the Giants defense caught a break in a big spot with a poor throw or drop by the offense.
I keep remember the first Cowboy game, and even the unsual number of poor throws by Rogers in the play off game.
Even in the Super Bowl, during the two touchdown drives by the Patriots it seemed recievers were comming off the line, untouched, going down field a few yards open and running for yards after the catch. There never seemed to be any thought by them of throwing deep and yet the Giants made no adjustments.
Even in the second half, on the Patriots drive before the Giants went ahead, it seems like the Patriots stopped themselves as much as anything.
On the final Patriot drive, 1st play, how far was the receiver going had that pass been thrown just a bit more ahead of him.
I have been trying to convince myself, that the Giants defense really stepped up in the post season, and statistics say they did.
But somehow it didn't pass the eye test.
Tell me where I am wrong.
When we went 1-4 after Plax went down, would Fewell have fared better than Spags did?
They held the Falcons, Packers, 49ers, and Patriots to an average of 13.5 points.
And if you add in the Jets and Cowboys game when the turnaround began, then they held opponents to 13.67 points per game.
For a defense to hold opponents to less than 2 TDs per game when it really matters the most against teams that are in do or die situations is pretty stunning.
I was not a fan of Fewell throughout the season, but whatever adjustments were made worked and players stepped up their game.
He's earned another shot, IMHO.
I still we rely WAY to much on our pass rush. Even with that we still managed to fuck up coverages at least once a game including the super bowl.
I remember Spags bringing all sorts of pressure via A gap. Blitzing Ross from the slot, and showed great use of personnel packages. I saw something on extremeskins which made me laugh. They were ranking DCs, and someone wrote. How hard is it to tell Tuck and Osi, Hey, get the QB! The rest of you guys just play defense, lol. Obviously that's simplistic, but I think we rely way too much on the pass rush, and even then our back end still manages to fuck up.
So, even after this one, I am not confident, but now I went from fire that fool, to let's see how things shake out next year. Can we actually start playing good defense from the get go, and carry it throughout the season, even when there is more tape on what we are trying to do? I guess I will take another wait and see approach.
now imagine if this defense had...
Goff playing at MLB..
Thomas playing the starting corner opposite Webster.
Ross playing the slot...
Rolle actually being able to play FS which is his natrual position...
NYG looked to be playing into NE's hands for a chunk of the SB, but they figured it out and got it done.
It's not to say Spags couldn't evolve his schemes too, but we did just win a SB with Fewell.
Too, do we rely "way too much" on Eli? ;)
I dont think his style of defense would translate to 95% of the NFL. Spags on the other hand, has shown more of an ability to mask deficiencies and create on the fly.
For the Giants, at this point, Fewell is likely the better fit but I think overall, Spags is the better coach.
Right now they are equal.. period..
I understand the pass rush is our strength, but if things went to shit, I trust Spags in coming up with something creative rather than Fewell.
Fewell gets props for adjusting the defense though. But overall, for me he goes from red back to grey, meaning I will once again take a wait and see approach with him.
People on this site have become WAY too enamored with Steve Spagnuolo. He was a great DC here and everyone should love what he did. But people talk about him like he's some mastermind legend who can just never be replaced.
Once we got healthy and made a couple of adjustments, this defense was very good. Even last year, in Fewell's first with the Giants, we got to the QB and forced turnovers better than anyone. That's how you combat the high powered offenses in the league today. As Terps and others have said, I think Fewell understands what you need to do in order to shut them down.
Anyone picking on Fewell right now is nitpicking, and anyone saying Spags was better because of facts, is stretching.
Spags team started 0 - 2 and historically awful and was buoyed by a goal line stand week 3.
For whatever reason Fewell's defense didn't get healthy and/or buy into his system until a 97-play strong showing against the Jets.
so, the end results were similar, both defenses standing up to strong offensive opponents, but Fewell's was bad longer during the regular season.
if not for that you'd probably be as confident in Fewell
Seems to me that Fewell got dealt a tough hand with the injury situation. He tried to do what any competent DC would do. He tried to scheme around the weakness and disguise them. Unfortunately, this confused the Giants more than the opposition. As the D got healthier , he was able to rely less on the disguises.
The LB is weak at best, and only Boley is a true blitzer. There is a lot of skill with blitzing such as timing and stunts that involve speed and quickness. Not all LB are good blitzers.
Fewell has designed a scheme based on his personell. Strong in the front four. Thus the scheme revolves around the pressure coming from up front. We had injuries and at times were down Osi and Tuck. Thus Kiwi and JPP and Tolofson played more downs then desired.
Fewell simply stayed within the scheme based on his personell and what they do. The LB's here could barely stop the run. Adding in a sophisticated blitz scheme made no sense because the LBs were weak and raw this year.
In the future that can change as players grow.
What should make you feel good is in the playoffs the Giants defense held Atlanta to 2 points, GB to 20, SF to 14 and NE to 17. That is great defense.
If you think it was luck that Rodgers had a bad game then that is just because you want to believe Spags is better. Rodgers played like crap because the defense had a great game plan and executed.
BTW, I love Spags as a D-Coord. But look at what his genius did in St. Louis?
Like I said, Spags did a great job here. I think people get carried away, though. Ultimately, he didn't accomplish anything more than Fewell has.
But if I had to answer which run I thought was more impressive by the defense, it's 2007. I think people forget just how great the 2007 Pats offense was. Brady broke the recrod for TD passes and him and Moss were unstoppable, except for SB 42, of course. Spags gets alot of credit for that. I don't know if the 2011 Giants defense holds the 2007 Pats offense to 14. I don't think I see that happening.
I think he is a decent coordinator and has the luxury of relying on his front 4 to generate pressure. Thats what makes his D tick and he does have a tendency to stick with that sometimes too long, even if their not getting there, but his 3-safety package has proven to be effective in this pass-happy league now.
I think you'll also see vast improvement in the back 7 on D next year, as well. Many rookies in their second year; ready to add to this D.
Guy just won a freakin Super Bowl and the D played a major role. I, for one, have plenty of confidence in him!
Add that to the fact that the Falcons offense didn't even score a point on us and Brady only got 17... I don't know. This run was pretty damn impressive.
He really didnt have to in the playoffs b/c the pass rush was doing their job. For that approx 10 game stretch in the regular season when the pass rush was virtually non-existent, nothing changed, to the ire of many of us here.
I agree that we leaned heavily on the pass rushers this year. We did the same thing in 2007 down the stretch. Anyone doubting that needs to go back and watch the 2nd half of the Cowboy game. That pass rush was approaching '85 Bears levels of disruption.
Blitzing these top QBs these days is a recipe for disaster. Go back to two plays in our game in Dallas:
- 3rd and 5, Cowboys have 7 on the line, rush 6 (with a safety blitzing and Brooking backpedaling to fill his zone)...
Manningham All Alone, Eli Doesn't Miss
- 3rd and 5, Giants have 6 on the line, tip their hand pre-snap, rush 7...
Austin All Alone, Romo Ain't Eli
Good OCs identify these blitzes during the week, and they make sure their offensive players are able to spot them pre-snap and adjust accordingly.
Down the stretch the Giants had better players on defense than the opponents did on offense, and he was able to check his ego enough to let the superior talent dictate and not do anything nutty. I'll take that guy over the Rex Ryans and Dom Capers of the world every time.
Getting Rodgers (or Brees) to check down to a 5 yard play is a victory for the defense.
2011 Pats offense - 428 yds/game, 32 pts/game
So this year they averaged slightly more yards but slightly less points. To me this sounds about the same. In addition I can point out:
- the offenses we played in 2011 (Pats, Pack, Atl, even SF) were as good as the the offenses in 2007 playoff run overall
- the GB game in 2012 was played in good weather, the 2007 team was greatly aided by subzero temperatures
- the defense in the 2012 SB didn't let the Pats score after early in the 3rd quarter. Spags almost blew the game with a TD drive ending with 2 minutes to go.
The facts are this D was every bit as good as Spags, I don't see why anyone has an issue saying that. I could agree they are both about even. I also see nothing that says Spags is better based on track record (with and before the Giants). Again I could agree with they are both very good.
There is a reason why many people thought the Giants would win the SB this year and it was our offense, not out defense.
That said, you also have to keep in mind that if you're going to be forced to create pressure by blitzing, then you damn well better have the horses in the back end to maintain coverage...and THAT'S where Fewell's defense struggled throughout the year. As someone said earlier in the thread, you had Thomas and Goff out in preseason...lost CB after CB that was signed to help out (the former Colts DB whose name escapes me right now...Tryon?...for example)...and had rookies, or flat out not good players, filling in the blanks at LB also (which, it appeared with Blackburn coming back and steadying the defense...is a bigger factor than any of us initially thought).
As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out with Fewell but it's interesting to see how his defense jelled and, IMO, the biggest addition wasn't some scheme change or a player coming back healthy (ie Osi)...but the re-addition of Blackburn to steady the LB corp. It's no surprise that he made one of the bigger plays of the game in the Super Bowl with that INT. I think his coming back to the team...and the effect it had on the whole defense...is actually still a bit underrated even now.
His defenses in STL haven't been nearly as effective nor consistent, which indicates that he too may have been helped tremendously by having a healthy and performing Front 4 here in NY.
All I know is that when crunch time came, both Spags and Fewell's D's rose to the occasion and were main componentes to why we have two rings during their tenures.
Fact is the guy won a Superbowl, and at the same time, nearly cost us the season.
I don't like a lot of the things he did personally,but I can live with it as long as the defense isn't getting picked apart in the secondary.
What have you done for me lately, that is what it is all about.
Spag didn't have a dominant offense to bail him out.
I have confidence in Fewell because of how we ended the season.
Rolle was playing out of position.
Give me Fewell with a healthy TT, Webster, Prince at CB + Rolle & Phillips at S. I bet you'd see more blitzes and not solely rely on the front 4 to get pressure if our confidence was higher in the 2ndary.
Works great against inferior teams, but then you run into guys like Eli Manning and Tom Brady, who are always looking for the one-on-one match up (ask the Ryan brothers, the current blitz masters, how it worked out for them)
The blitz is the "coup-de-grace" (exclusively implemented on 3rd and long), eminently implemented by Spags, here with a tremendously talented group of players ....
Then, on he went to the Rams; they gave him three years ? (before they tired, and threw him out).
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Spags and his passion. (Remember when he'd be on his knees, praying !); but in some ways he reminds me of Jerry Glanville (another Blitz Master), savant of the spectacular, but a bit lacking in the essentials ...
Maybe that's what Fewell is (more the boring guy) - Better founded in the fundamentals (but still willing to pull out the sword once-in-a-while).
an old slow LB,3 Safeties trying to be cornerbacks,ect//
we do have a great pass rush but next year we need
some db's w/ coverage skills....Prince will be ok and we
need to draft the best cb/s in draft w/ pick 1...
and DE pick 2....
If I were some of the recent linebacker draftees I would sort of be nervous about how a guy writing on a chalkboard and sitting on a couch (Blackburn) could come in a make serious defensive plays to help fuel improvements in our defense, yet those guys looked fucking lost out there.
Spags is more aggressive, his MO is get to the qb. If that meant sending a safety and/or a corner, so be it.
ADon't get me wrong he didn't blitz all the time. He's sneaky with his calls. Has good feel for the flow of the game.
Guys who play defense love to blitz, it's exciting to get the call.
Don't let the haters get you down. They are knee jerk fans who are not into analysis or discussion.
It is a point that is pretty hard to prove. Both coordinators have their strengths and weaknesses, but for some reason, Spags weaknesses are rarely discussed. Sort of the same way John Fox's weaknesses weren't discussed either.
Fewell and Spags employ two different philosophies, and we were able to see Fewell's at work when he had a healthy front 4. I really don't know if we can judge who is the better coordinator. Spags put his signature on the Rams D, and it was decent when people were healthy and terrible when they were injured - sort of a common theme throughout the league, and common to Fewell as well.
What have you done for me lately.
The 2011 Giants defense gave up 36 to the Seattle Seahawks with their backup playing most of the game.
Take away those horrendous penalties that extended their two TD drives, they only score 6 points.
We held a good Falcons offense to zero points.
We did alright with Fewell. There were a lot of question marks around Spags up until our run there at the end, just like there were with Fewell.
However, your post and anaylsis made alot of sense.
It goes both ways.
You guys who are Gnawing at the edges here need to get a life. If you can't enjoy what happened and the fact that the Giants played OUTSTANDING FOOTBALL ....and that includes the defense ... against the top ranked and seeded teams in the NFL to win the championship ... well nothing will ever satisfy you.
Spats did great .. But so did Fewell .. Give the guy some kudos.. He friggen deserves it!
However, this team during the regular season gave up more points than it scored. This team spent 14 weeks with a defense that seem incapable of stopping anyone.
This defense for most of the season played poorly to the point that none of us considered this a Super Bowl contender.
Rewatching the Super Bowl, all key stops in the second half were the result of a sack. I know that is a good thing. But my original point was simply that when the Giants don't get a rush with the fron four, there seems to be no answer.
That wasn't the case with Spagnuolo.
The points made about Fewell that I agree with, was that he did make some adjustments to get this defense playing to a higher level, and that maybe we will see an even bigger improvement next season if the defense stays healthy.
SMH. Having pro bowl players does a lot to make one look better. Too bad, the Rams couldn't bring Reese and the scouting department back in 2009, may have saved some jobs.
2007 LBers > 2011 Boley, Kiwi and late round rookie and UDFAs
CBs are the same except more depth on the 2007 team with veterans
The safety position is the only position that could be said to have been an advantage for the 2011 team.
Still curious as to whether anyone still counts the the GB and Dallas game anymore with Spags.
With that being said, exactly what 'adjustments' did Spags make when his defense was getting shredded to the tune of 80 points in the first two games of the '07 season? You probably already know the answer but I'll give it to those that don't...NONE. All he did was keep grinding and knew that eventually things would fall into place. He believed in his system and eventually was proven right.
My point is that, IMO, Fewell did much the same thing. I don't think he made any huge, 'magical' adjustments...it just took that much long for the defense to jell together (along with adding some vets to the middle of the defense and getting a few back from injury). I think that people are making a bit too much of these magical adjustments that were made by Fewell towards the end of the season. I think it was just a matter of better play (and better playERS) making significant contributions to the defense. I would've loved to see if the defense would've gotten better sooner had we added Blackburn sooner in the season.
Fewell responded to the situation and more importantly his defense responded and the Giants accomplished the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl...
Thats the pinnacle.. both men have done it..
In 2011... that really wasn't the case...
The Giants offense almost let the SF game slip away.. and the Giants Defense stiffened heroically in the second half of the Superbowl...
I think this was a harder run and the 2011 defense was better since the Jets game...
As I said.. Spags was excellent. I have nothing against him. But it's not like the 2007 Giants defense was the 85 Bears.
There were times this year where the overwhelming majority of fans wanted Fewell fired. They got it going late in the year and had a fantastic year. But the offense was the bread and butter of this team, namely Eli Manning and the passing game. In 2007, it was the defense that bailed us out. In 2011, it was the offense.
The difference is less than 2 points per game.
There is awhole hell of alot more difference than two points per game.
Also whether there were adjustments or not, Spagnuolo's schemes allowed for more variety in creating a pass rush.
Again, there were times with Fewell that it seemed all his eggs were in one basket, getting pressure from the front 4.
Do you remember well timed corner blitzes or safety blitzes from Spagnuolo that could turn a game around.
We didn't see much of that with Fewell. Maybe it was because we were better in the D-backfield in 07, I don't know.
But as I stated in the original post, and got critized for, Fewell's defense, at least for me, didn't pass the eye test in comparison to Spagnuolo.
Most Points in a Season
Most Touchdowns in a Season
Tom Brady took over the Most Touchdowns Passing in a Season
Randy Moss took over the Most Touchdowns Receiving in a Season
Most wins in a regular season
Most consecutive wins in the regular season
Tom Brady set the record for highest completion percentage in a playoff game
Rodgers' 2011 and Brady's 2007 also weren't all that different. Brady threw 5 more TD's, 2 more INT's and the yardage was only about 200 yards different.
There's really no major difference between the 2011 Packers and 2007 Patriots offenses. Both were tops in the league in their respective seasons and both produced similar scoring outputs. I also think the fact that we beat the Packers at Lambeau whereas we beat the Pats on neutral ground is worth mentioning.
Spags and Fewell both accomplished the same thing as DC's. 4 impressive playoff wins and a Championship. There are arguments for both.. but I don't think Spags has some massive edge and I think people tend to overrate him a tad.
And we're talking about one game. The 2007 Giants allowed 65 total points in the playoffs.. the 2011 team allowed 54.
Also, the 2007 Cowboys were the best Cowboys team of this generation. We went into their house and beat them. Ditto for a very good Packers team in Lambeau in minus 30 degree weather.
It's pretty even, IMO.
Like Fats said earlier in the thread.. it's a pretty hard comparison to make. You can't really just isolate DC's because there are so many other factors that come into play. For whatever reason, though.. it seems like people forgot that Spags had his warts just like Fewell did.
And why does one game define the entire run? Great, the Pats averaged a whopping 1.8 PPG more than the 2011 Packers. The other 3 games don't count?
It may seem like harping on it, but that point needs to be drilled home. It was that big of an achievement. I'm not trying to paint Spags out to be perfect. We are discussing which DC is better, I belive that his run here was more impressive than Perry's thus far. If Fewell wins another SB with the Giants, the better DC is undoubtedly him.
I'm not saying they aren't close. But I do think Spags' run was alittle more impressive than this one. Yes, a big part of that is beating the Pats. But the 2007 Dallas team was the best Dallas team of the 2000s and the Packers were damn good as well. Hell, we were the underdogs in the Bucs game!
Anyway, I apologize if I came off rude at all. That wasn't my intention. I just feel pretty strongly that defensively, 2007 was more impressive than 2011.
But let's not talk about facts when dealing with such subjective criteria in a debate.
Yes, the pats did do all that stuff. Is that the criteria for having more confidence in spags over fewell? I mean look at the thread start.
'Even in the Super Bowl, during the two touchdown drives by the Patriots it seemed recievers were comming off the line, untouched, going down field a few yards open and running for yards after the catch. '
Sounds like the two TD drives in SB42.
arc's right that there's a nostalgic god-like status given to spags.
Spags was amazing here. But he was no Belichick. His time with both us and the Rams has proven that. But he's still good
Fewell had a very good first season here and now he capped it with a shitty regular season (where injuries may or may not have presented a tough challenge depending on who you ask) followed by an amazing run at the end. He's no Belichick. But he seems to have proven himself pretty well.
The debate is subjective, both guys have earned lots of merit, imo. I don't necessarily know if Spags is significantly farther ahead of fewell.
This year our defense did perform very well in the SB. However, in the 2nd and 3rd quarters the Pats offense basically did what they wanted. Brady completed 16 passes in a row, a new SB record. They never looked that good in SB 42.
I think solid arguments can be made both ways but again.. there are so many factors that come into play that it's hard to really isolate it enough to make a fair, fact-based comparison.
Either way, I think they're very similar... hell, they even defeated the same team in the Super Bowl with the same QB's and same HC's on both sides. Bottom line.. the Giants are World Champs again and that's all that matters.
Save for the 16 straight passes, this: 'However, in the 2nd and 3rd quarters the Pats offense basically did what they wanted.'
When the pats scored their two TDs in 42, it looked the same, like they did exactly what they wanted.
Save for 5 points, (pats FG, pats safety) those games were frighteningly similar.
We're swerving off topic a little bit with this post but what the hell, it was fucking eerie.
Blackburn was brought back from the abyss, and accomplished the same thing for Fewell.
Some here, can't wait for Goff to come back. I'll tell you one thing, as flawed as Blackburn has been in the past; he played (especially pass defense) and directed traffic as Goff never has.
Another very good thing the happened - To took Rolle into his office, and quietly encouraged him to chill.
Fewell was the perfect DC against the Pats this past year for the kind of offense they ran this year.
Having a savvy guy like CB definitely helped.. but Boley was calling the shots all year (aside from when he was injured, obviously).
look this is a subjective argument. Its obvious no facts will skew someones opinion. To me, I'll take Fewell. He relies less on the blitz (which is the defensive version of the big play), and gets the same results. Also I do give him an edge in the SB because his D shut down the Pats the second half, while Spags let the Pats score with 2 minutes to go (which could have easily been the game winner). Also because of this I discredit this whole "better offense in 2011 thing", because Spags was bailed out by the 2007 offense.
To arc's point, the difference between the two offenses is so slight that arguing that Spags is a better DC because he beat NE and Fewell only beat GB is asinine.
Spags might very well be a better DC than Fewell. My personal opinion is that it is too difficult and close to tell right now, and it certainly won't be decided because Spags beat a supposedly better NE team.
Spags also did nothing since leaving the Giants, and his defenses have been average to bad.
People acting as if they can prove who the better DC is are the ones fooling themselves. There is no clear cut answer here - nor does there need to be. One ring for each is good right now.
Both defenses faced the cream of the crop in the playoffs and won. The end results were the same, and that's all that matters.
That defense had some major hiccups that year. Anybody who acts like Spags walked in here Day 1 and dominated isn't remembering correctly.
Add don't forget to add in all the following:
the diminished play of that Fraud Tuck,
the weak linebacker play before Blackburn returned,
and the lack of a running game from the offense to help keep the defense off the field.
Fewell in my opinion was doing a decent job before the turn-around and then turned in some very good work once more pieces came back.
You can find those articles with a google search
Link - ( New Window )
He did get the same results, but I guess I'm wondering, what happens if the front 4 doesn't get there, will there be answers?