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Boy, were we in rough shape when Coughlin arrived in 2004!

Emlen'sGremlins : 2/21/2012 1:12 pm
I looked at the Sporting News 2004 Pro Football Draft Guide last night. Reading the "Team Needs" section, and reviewing the "Projected Depth Chart" made me fully realize that we sure got a whole lot smarter in our draft selections and free agent acquisitions once Tom Coughlin arrived on the scene! Gosh, was our roster pretty putrid! It's also interesting to note that Sporting News gave no chance of us selecting a franchise QB in the 2004 draft when this was originally published.

TEAM NEEDS:

1. Offensive Tackle
Ian Allen struggled as the starter on the right side last year, but Jeff Hatch isn't ready to replace him, and left tackle Luke Petitgout is returning from back probelems. What does it all mean? The Giants could add as many as two tackles in the free-agent market and/or the draft. Iowa's Robert Gallery is the one they're targeting with the fourth overall selection. They also could draft a development type such as Cal State Sacramento's Martko Cavka or UC-Davis' Brad Lekkerkerker in the late rounds.

2. Safety
Omar Stoutmire yields too many big plays for an experienced starter. Johnnie Harris, an unrestricted free agent expected back, is declining. Shaun Williams is coming off a season-ending knee injury and disappointing year, but he was hindered by Stoutmire and injuries at corner. Williams should bounce back if the team adds a safety who doesn't need to be protected in coverage as much as Stoutmire. The Giants could select Miami's Sean Taylor with the fourth overall pick, but drafting Gallery there and using a second-round selection on a safety such as Georgia's Sean Jones, Iowa's Bob Sanders or Purdue's Stuart Schweigert makes more sense.

3. Outside linebacker
New York is expected to re-sign unrestricted free agent Brandon Short, but it's unlikely Dhani Jones, an unrestricted free agent, will return. Wesly Mallard, Kevin Lewis and Quincy Monk provide adequate depth but aren't starting material. Georgia Tech's Keyaron Fox and Oklahoma's Teddy Lehman should be available on Day 1.

4. Defeensive tackle
The Giants want to re-sign Cornelius Griffin, an unrestricted free-agent, but he may be too expensive. If he bolts, this becomes a big need. William Joseph failed to make an impact as a rookie, though he still has the potential to develop into a solid starter. With Keith Hamilton expected to retire and Lance Legree lacking bulk, the team needs a tackle who can push Joseph. If a free agent isn't obtained, Mississippi State's Tommy Kelly, Stanford's Amon Gordon and Iowa State's Jordan Carstens will be good values if they slip to Day 2.

5. Cornerback
Will Peterson and Will Allen form a good starting duo, but depth is needed. Ralph Brown, an unrestricted free agent who probably will return, is an inconsistent open-field tackler and lacks height. Arkansas' Ahmad Carroll, Texas' Nathan Vasher and Florida's Keiwan Ratliff are third-round prospects capable of replacing Brown in the nickel package right away.

6. Quarterback
Jesse Palmer and Jason Garrett aren't expected back. The Giants probably will sign a free agent to back up Kerry Collins and then use a late-round pick on a developmental prospect. Washington's Cody Pickett, LSU's Matt Mauck and Michigan State's Jeff Smoker are Day 2 prospects with upside.

7. Inside linebacker
Mike Barrow continues to play at a high level, but he is aging. Nick Greisen makes his biggest contributions on special teams. The Giants need to start molding a possible replacement for Barrow while also improving their depth. Oregon State's Richard Siegler, Kansas State's Bryan Hickman and Northern Iowa's Jonathan Harrell could be steals on Day 2.

8. Guard
David Diehl did an adequate job as a rookie starter last season. Rich Seubert missed 10 games with an ankle injury, and Wayne Lucier and Scott Peters struggled in relief. Alabama's Atlas Herrion, Wake Forest's Tyson Clabo and UTEP's Trey Darilek are projected late-round picks who could spell Seubert.

9. Defensive end
Kenny Holmes opted to void his contract and is expected to be replaced in the lineup by Osi Umenyiora. Keith Washington, an unrestricted free agent who's expected to return, adds depth. Adding an explosive situational pass rusher would help keep the starters fresh and, hopefully draw attention from Michael Strahan. Western Michigan's Jason Babin, Virginia Tech's Nathaniel Adibi and Florida's Bobby McCray are Day 2 possibilities.

THE OUTLOOK:

It appears that the Giants will end up with Gallery unless a team leap-frogs ahead of them to select the Iowa tackle. After that, the Giants must focus on defense. Ideally, they would draft a potential starter such as Jones at safety in the second round, and then get a cornerback such as Vasher or an outside linebacker such as Lehman in the third round. The Giants have needs at defensive tackle and defensive end, but they spent high picks on Joseph and Umenyiora last year. They might look for a tackle such as Gordon or an end such as Adibi in the fourth round and try to fill the other need with a free agent. In the final rounds, they'll need to address depth issues in the interior of the offensive line and at inside linebacker and quarterback.
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#1 need was QB  
Go Terps : 2/21/2012 1:14 pm : link
.
Ugh.  
Curtis in VA : 2/21/2012 1:16 pm : link
Some of those names make me cringe.
Gallery  
Sneakers O'toole : 2/21/2012 1:17 pm : link
I seem to recall a lot of Giants fans clambering for Gallery. That was back before I knew about this place, was that the case here too?
Wow  
BigBlue2112 : 2/21/2012 1:17 pm : link
Those are some names id like to forget!
PROJECTED DEPTH CHART  
Emlen'sGremlins : 2/21/2012 1:20 pm : link
OFFENSE

QB
Kerry Collins
Jesse Palmer

FB
Jim Finn

RB
Tiki Barber
Dorsey Levins

WR
Amani Toomer
Tim Carter

WR
Ike Hilliard
David Tyree

TE
Jeremy Shockey
Marcellus Rivers

LT
Luke Petitgout
Ian Allen

LG
Rich Seubert
Scott Peters

C
Chris Bober
Wayne Lucier

RG
David Diehl
Jeff Roehl

RT
Ian Allen
Jeff Roehl

K
Matt Bryant

DEFENSE

LE
Michael Strahan
Keith Washington

LT
Cornelius Griffin
Lance Legree

RT
William Joseph
Lance Legree

RE
Osi Umenyiora
Keith Washington

SLB
Brandon Short
Quincy Monk

MLB
Michael Barrow
Nick Greisen

WLB
Kevin Lewis
Wesly Mallard

LCB
Will Allen
Frank Walker

SS
Shaun Williams
Clarence LeBlanc

FS
Omar Stoutmire
Johnnie Harris

RCB
Will Peterson
Ralph Brown

P
Jeff Feagles
I wanted  
AnishPatel : 2/21/2012 1:20 pm : link
Sean Taylor! ST all the way!
I wanted ST as well..  
Big Blue '56 : 2/21/2012 1:23 pm : link
things began to improve a ton when Reese joined the staff in 2003, making EA look far better than he was since he technically signed off on things..I could have targeted Manning myself..Wasn't some magical genius on his part
What Sporting News didn't realize...  
rptl530 : 2/21/2012 1:23 pm : link
was that Kerry Collins was never going to play a down for Tom Coughlin.

Could you imagine.................  
GiantBlue : 2/21/2012 1:35 pm : link
Washington's Cody Pickett, LSU's Matt Mauck and Michigan State's Jeff Smoker are Day 2 prospects with upside.

any one of those three....we would still be looking for a QB!
What's amazing...  
UAGiant : 2/21/2012 1:42 pm : link
Is how little depth there was on most of those teams prior to Coughlin coming in. Each season would seemingly get lost to a rash of injuries at one position that left the team so lost, they ended up starting guys who were packing groceries the week earlier or signing aged veterans that were sitting home on the couch (Herman Moore at receiver anyone?).

That's one of the reasons I try and always give Coughlin the benefit of the doubt - I remember some of the names that put on the laundry under Fassel.
ian allen  
enjayray : 2/21/2012 1:44 pm : link
... may have been the worst OL i've ever seen
I admit it...I wanted Gallery...  
MikeN in Ottawa : 2/21/2012 1:45 pm : link
boy, did I goof on that? Obviously, EA knew what he was doing and I think the Giants signed O'Hara as a FA, Richie came back and we also signed KM as a FA. Later we drafted Snee and he stepped in right away. 2005 we also signed Burress. Our drafts and FA signings were very smart and worked out for the most part.
I was an Eli guy from day one  
Sneakers O'toole : 2/21/2012 1:46 pm : link
my whole circle of Giant fan friends were very excited at the prospect of trading up for Eli, which isn't exactly the way it worked out but it was close enough!
I was hoping that Collins would stay onboard  
Sneakers O'toole : 2/21/2012 1:47 pm : link
for a couple seasons as Eli got his feet wet in the progame, but that was not to be. I did not forsee them going out and getting Warner.
I was very wrong  
mrvax : 2/21/2012 1:49 pm : link
My thinking was Collins was OK. He needed a good LT to keep him alive.

I did not think it was a good idea to hire/draft a "franchise QB" who would then command 10%-15% of the team's cap space.

Now I'm older and wiser.
I wanted Taylor too..  
T-Bone : 2/21/2012 1:50 pm : link
I remember telling all my Redskins fans all about him before the draft and how he was going to be a Beast. Luckily, we got the ONE player that I would've taken over him at the time (but didn't think we'd trade up to get him). Thinking back on it though...Fitzgerald wouldn't have been a bad pick either. *grin*

What an amazing draft class that was.
Emlen'sGremlins  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/21/2012 1:50 pm : link
On the contrary, I didn't realize we had that much talent on the team. There are a lot of good players on that depth chart.
After seeing Collin's look of fear in the 2000 SB....  
GiantBlue : 2/21/2012 1:53 pm : link
I knew he wasn't going to win it all for us.

I too was a big Eli fan from day 1 and before the draft. I do remember having to argue for the trade with my buddies for several days and years after that draft.

They all have at one point or another told me I was right.

Coughlin, Reese and Eli have brought a championship Air to this team!
I wanted Ben  
enjayray : 2/21/2012 1:57 pm : link
.

threw the remote with the Eli trade


oops
I would have LOVED  
Steve L : 2/21/2012 1:57 pm : link
to have a guy named Brad Lekkerkerker on our team.
They never really  
RetroJint : 2/21/2012 2:01 pm : link
fell apart under Fassel until the injuries wiped out the OL and Accorsi found replacements from longshoremen and teamsters. The game @ Dallas when Palmer was running a sort of veer passing attack was especially pathetic and comical. All NFL teams have talent. The system is rigged so that there is an inevitable distribution of people who can play. The Colts this season had talent. The Redskins are probably a few players away from being serious Super Bowl contenders.Having gamechangers beyond the normal core of competent professionals and avoiding a long list of seriously injured is the prescription for the turnaround. And, in Coughlin's case, patience, to sit through Eli's excruciating learning curve that first season. Although I found Warner's comments about Eli to be essentially bitter grapes and almost grade-school-level envy, I do agree with him on the point that Eli was brutal that first season.
11/24/03  
Go Terps : 2/21/2012 2:02 pm : link
Giants are in Tampa. Collins throws what felt like his millionth endzone interception of the season, and I hit my breaking point with him. I got up off the couch and said to my buddy, "That's it. We should be done with this guy. We've gotta go get Eli Manning."

I was not a big Sean Taylor fan, and having watched nearly all of his games continue to think the unfortunate way his life ended has contributed to him being overrated in people's minds. I loved Fitzgerald, but we HAD to come out of that draft with a new QB. We couldn't suffer Collins anymore.
I wanted a QB  
Optimus-NY : 2/21/2012 2:02 pm : link
Ben was my choice. I feared giving up too much for Eli. Boy was I wrong! lol.
I thought  
Karma : 2/21/2012 2:52 pm : link
the big question was going to be who went no.1 Eli or Rivers.. Roethlisburger only came onto the draft scene late on? Surprising how little Rivers has done considering the huge payoff they got for Eli.
The weakest area  
pjcas18 : 2/21/2012 3:04 pm : link
was o-line. I think it was 2004 when theisman made the comment about the Giants having the worst o-line in football history. Tiki was so good people might not have realized how bad it was.

The next off-season, 2005, was when Snee and McKenzie were added to Diehl, O'Hara and eventually the return of Seubert

They went on to an NFL record 37? consecutive starts - I believe that streak started the end of 2006 or beginning of 2007.
Quincy Monk and Wesley Mallard.... yuck.  
arcarsenal : 2/21/2012 3:06 pm : link
.
Eric from BBI  
Richie78 : 2/21/2012 3:06 pm : link
At the skill position, yes (Barber, Toomer, Hilliard and Shockey), and also at DL with (Strahan, Osi and Grif), and Will-P & Will-A, but outside of that, you either having very aging vets and complete scrubs.
Diehl and Suebert were good  
Richie78 : 2/21/2012 3:07 pm : link
I omitted those.
this is stating the obvious  
Enzo : 2/21/2012 3:09 pm : link
but we really took advantage of our trip to the top of draft in 2004 when we nabbed Eli. It must really suck to be one of those teams that ends up in the top 10 of the draft more often than not.
My hopes for the first round were  
an_idol_mind : 2/21/2012 3:22 pm : link
1) Gallery
2) Fitzgerald
3) Taylor
4) Roethlisberger
5) Eli

I thought Collins just needed a better offensive line. Years later, after seeing what Eli can do, I know realize the clear difference between a quarterback who is decent and one who is great.

And I'm really glad that the Giants picked Eli over Roethlisberger, because I'd rather not be cheering for a rapist.
People forget how Coughlin came in  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/21/2012 3:29 pm : link
and totally stacked us with competitive players competing for position in every area of the team
going into the 2004 draft....  
Greg from LI : 2/21/2012 3:29 pm : link
I wanted either Sean Taylor or Fitz, and Schaub as the QB of the future in round 2.
I sorta thought...  
Jan in DC : 2/21/2012 3:30 pm : link
that if Gallery was on the board, that the Giants would have kept the pick and not traded for Eli. I'm not sure that's true, but considering the odd nature of that trade, feels like something wonky was going on.
Jan  
pjcas18 : 2/21/2012 3:34 pm : link
no chance. It was trade up for Eli or trade down with CLE and pick Big Ben. At least if you believe all the books.

Richie78 - Seubert missed a lot of 2003, all of 2004 and most of 2005 with the gruesome leg injury.

It was clear Roethlisberger was a clown  
Go Terps : 2/21/2012 3:36 pm : link
at the GMAC Bowl. Though I thought he looked as good or better than Rivers, I wanted no part of him. It had to be Eli. Thank God for Accorsi.
If you read Accorsi's  
pjcas18 : 2/21/2012 3:37 pm : link
book it's so interesting how close that deal came to changing. If the Chargers didn't back off their claims for Osi to be included Accorsi was going to reject it and accept the trade up from CLE, and presumably pick Big Ben.
People who think Collins  
Eggs55 : 2/21/2012 3:46 pm : link
was the biggest problem suffer from revisionist history
but when your record  
Eggs55 : 2/21/2012 3:48 pm : link
is that low and you get a chance to take a franchise QB i think it proved you do it.

Had we not come back to beat the Jets in OT we get Eli for free that year
Eggs  
Go Terps : 2/21/2012 4:01 pm : link
- When there are rumors he milked his ankle injury to not have to return behind that bad OL;
- When the QB plays as poorly as Collins did in 2003;
- When the incoming coach is implementing a complex offensive system that calls for the QB to make difficult reads, often under duress;
- When the incoming draft class has the quality of the 2004 class...

...then QB is absolutely the #1 priority.

I remember the Collins supporters around here stating for sure that he would go to Oakland with Norv Turner (and in 2005 Randy Moss) and light it up. I was lambasted for saying he wouldn't be much different than he had been here. What the Raiders got with Collins as a starter was a 7-21 record in two seasons where he threw 41 total TDs (including 3 in the last game of the season in 2005 against the Giants to bring his '05 total to 20). And that was in the AFC West.

Replacing Collins was absolutely the top priority. I doubt very seriously if Coughlin wanted any part of him at all.
I don't think Collins was the biggest problem with the 2003 team,  
an_idol_mind : 2/21/2012 4:10 pm : link
but I do think it was a great choice to draft a quarterback in 2004. If you have a shot at getting a top-flight quarterback for the next 10+ years, you need to grab it. I would have liked to see Collins stick around and eventually pass things off to Eli, but he didn't want any of that and it became necessary to let him go.
Collins was a caretaker  
djm : 2/21/2012 4:14 pm : link
nothing more. When things were clicking around him he was a solid QB. When things were teetering on the brink of disaster, he didn't help matters one bit. He always had a great arm and he always had potential to light up the scoreboard, but he would never be able to elevate a franchise to championship heights. He would merely be along for the ride. Going from the likes of Dave Brown and Danny Kanell skewed the perception of many Giants fans into believing that Collins was a guy to build around.

I wish I could bump into the Giants fan I ran into at the 04 draft day party. He would not even let me get a word in edge wise once the trade was announced. I think he said I was as stupid as Ernie Accorsi, lol. Where's that dude now.
idol mind...  
rptl530 : 2/21/2012 4:15 pm : link
it wasn't KC's choice. TC didn't want anything to do with it.

Collins, for all his yards as a Giant...  
Greg from LI : 2/21/2012 4:18 pm : link
Never threw for as many as 20 TDs in a season.
the crazy thing to me, at the time of the 04 draft  
djm : 2/21/2012 4:20 pm : link
was that so many Giants fans were holding on this hope that the Giants were building something with Collins at the QB position. "We can't rebuild with a young QB we need to go for it."

Go for what? Under Collins the team was somewhere around 36-32, 2-2 in the playoffs and Collins had clearly displayed a mediocre skill set. He never threw for more than what, 22 TDs? The Giants offense never cracked the top 10 under his watch. The Giants were toiling in mediocrity and they had a shot at a MANNING! And Giant fans, plenty of them, were actually pissed at Eli because he WANTED to play in NY!!! "He's a brat"----WTF! I was thrilled that Eli insisted on playing here. FINALLY, a super star type prospect went out of his way to single out the Giants in a positive light.

And to think....some Giant fans hated that quality in Eli. I still can't get over that.
TC...  
rptl530 : 2/21/2012 4:20 pm : link
was fired from Jax at exactly the right time.

You know damn well that he had his eye on the Giants job for at least the entire month of December while he scouted the NFL for the entire season.

It was a perfect storm. Fired Coach, mutual interest, top 4 pick and a franchise QB that the GM was gung-ho for.

Collins never stood a chance.
thanks, Greg  
djm : 2/21/2012 4:22 pm : link
I thought Collins may have thrown for 22 during the 2000 season but I guess not.
to me  
djm : 2/21/2012 4:27 pm : link
that behavior from Giants fans makes the Simms hate seem like normal and rational behavior. Simms got a lot of unfair heat in this town but let's be honest, the guy never won shit until he was in his late 20s. From 79-83 Simms was nothing short of a greek tragedy. His injuries out numbered his great performances and he was a very high draft pick. Once he started winning games in 1984 the hate was unwarranted but before that point the fans hate was to be expected, even if it was unfair.

Eli comes along, plays every game from 2005-2007 and wins a division title and gets his team to 3 straight playoff appearances and I still got shit from die hard fans both here and everywhere that not only was Eli a shitty QB, he was a spoiled brat for choosing to play in NY. Again, I can't stress enough how much that just blows me away.

IT's fun to reflect.
it was just an opportunity to upgrade  
Eggs55 : 2/21/2012 4:28 pm : link
i felt oline was the biggest problem and wouldve taken Gallery lol I never expected to be in play for Eli due to not picking 1st and if it wasn't Eli didn't want Ben. I could have lived with Rivers but am glad we got Eli.
no, actually, you're right  
Greg from LI : 2/21/2012 4:30 pm : link
He did throw 22 in 2000. I thought he topped out at 19.

Either way, nothing special. Collins was overvalued by many of us (me included) because he was a legit NFL QB, which was something the Giants hadn't seen since Phil Simms. It took 6 years to get one after #11 retired. I mean, Dave Brown never threw for 300 yards in 60 career starts. Not once. Hell, he only broke 250 in 6 of 60 starts.
djm  
pjcas18 : 2/21/2012 4:33 pm : link
why don't you understand that? I still don't like that Eli and his father publicly said he wouldn't play for the Chargers.

I didn't like it when Elway did it, when Lindros did it, when JD Drew did it, it just makes you look like you can't play for a perennial losing team and make them better, you look worse for having that attitude, not better IMO.
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