Coach Tom Coughlin says “I want ’em all’’ when asked about his own free agents but acknowledges that’s not going to happen. How much the Giants have to spend depends on their salary cap situation, which is directly tied to a pair of veterans, cornerback Corey Webster and offensive lineman David Diehl.
Both players are coming off poor seasons entering the final year of their contracts. Both started in Super Bowl XLII and again in Super Bowl XLVI, but their returns to the Giants are not guaranteed.
Webster’s salary for the upcoming season is $7 million and he’s scheduled to count $9.8 million against the cap. Diehl, 32, is scheduled to make $4.475 million in salary and his cap hit is around $6.9 million. It is virtually impossible for the Giants to bring Webster, 31, and Diehl back at their present salaries.
in a negative way. We are clearly transitioning to new players and it is overdue in my opinion. That doesn't mean necessarily we have a down year though. Spending huge dollars on Webster and Diehl makes zero sense.
It is time to fine players that are going to be given and a shot, and have to step up.
want to keep one of Diehl or Webster. How do they decide who to cut? Past production? Most likely future success? Available/affordable free agents? Potential rookies? Money saved? Available depth? There is a lot to factor in.
didn't say anything about it being a "negative" but losing "proven" players and replacing them via the draft is a gamble (clearly one in a cap era teams need to make). But odds are that the rookie class you bring in is going to play at a lower level then the vets we will/have dropped. Lack of cap room + dumping vets = a rebuilding situation. It can happen right away if last years rookies step up and some of the guys they bring in do well but it's still a "gamble" betting on rookies/second year unproven guys to do better than your vets.
So was 2007 and 2011. We lost important vets before both of those seasons and many thought the same thing. In a way, it forced us to play young players in important spots (Bradshaw, Smith, Boss, Ross, Cruz, Ballard, Jaquan Williams, etc).
We have Eli, which is good for 8 wins no matter what. Now let's see some young players step up to the next level like Wilson, Randle, Prince and lets see what we draft. It forces us to give a bigger leash to the young talent and I like it, especially talent found by Reese.
the record I'm totally for moving on from Diehl, I understand moving on from Webster. But lets not act like anyone outside of Prince is an amazing bet to outperform Webster this year (fully understand how bad he was this past year).
why did we only win 9 with all of those guys still here? It could be argued Boothe was our best OL last year. If we lose Boothe and Cruz the Gians are a lock to win at least 8 because of Eli?
was Curtis Painter I'd want Carr back too. I don't get that decision. I know teams that lose their starter are unlikely to be competitive and the '90 Giants or this years 49ers (who didn't lose their QB) were kind of unique in this regard that they won with a backup/2nd QB, but Painter is like throwing in the towel on the season.
I can see possibly considering Painter if he'd play below league minimum (if that were allowed) and maybe be an assistant coach or something too, but if there is another option out there, any other option, I'd strongly consider it.
And I know backup QB is the least of the worries right now, but it's a head-scratcher.
came into this year with Super Bowl aspirations (rightly so). Why don't we see that as much this year? Because of the blood letting, cap space and uncertainty of rookies/second year players. I don't think I'm saying anything outlandish.
wins? We won the Super Bowl 2 years ago, and lets be honest (and Eli is my favorite Giant ever) he didn't exactly have his finest season this year. Which year did we have 4 win talent with "League average qb" replacing Eli?
I would rather just go with a rookie behind Eli. I don't think Carr is an option, we don't need a great clipboard guy for him anymore. Eli is a vet. I don't buy Carr is a great practice QB, not buying it one bit. You just have to see him out there in preseason to know he cannot come close to mimicking QBs that are changeups.
Get a backup for the league minimum that can start learning from Eli. So goes Eli, goes our chances.
article doesn't tell us anything we don't already know, namely that Diehl and Webster will have to take pay cuts to remain with the team. Diehl should just be cut outright.
Webster's best option is to return to the Giants at a reduced price. There won't be much of a market for a thirty year old CB coming off a bad season. The Giants could then offer a little more than his market value as a reward for his tenure and contributions. Maybe add in some incentives in case he really starts to play well again. He needs to understand that this happens to all athletes. He can probably still contribute, but is no longer in the prime of his career.
CB on the roster are we confidently penciling in for "better than Webster was in 2012" other than Prince who is already one of the starters and thus not "replacing" Webster. Webster stunk but it's no great bet that Hosley is better than 2012 Webster this year.
to one degree or another but most of the guys who are now gone or seem to be on their way out were underperforming again, to one degree or another so you can look at it like we're upgrading at most of those positions.
My point is that we don't even know who will be back and who won't. Â
So the talk about "losing 'proven' players and replacing them in the draft is a gamble" is premature. We don't know how many of those guys we will even be replacing yet. It could only be Bradshaw and Diehl. It might be more. It could be all of them. Who knows.
IMO it's not so much a rebuilding year as retooling the roster Â
When you have a franchise QB and the weapons we have the playoffs should be the expectation. There are some holes but the cap situation isn't as dire as all that. Releasing Webster and Diehl would free up cap space to sign their replacements in free agency. That's addition by subtraction to begin with. They won't be released until new players are ready to ink their deals. Upgrading those two positions alone goes a long way to fixing what ailed the Giants last season. Need to get another quality player into the DT rotation as well. If JR&Co. can get these three things accomplished then head into the draft we're a contender. It's doable.
we are trying to get younger at certain positions while still being a contender. The Jets are in rebuilding mode. Huge difference.
Name a team not trying to swap aging vets for young guys? The Patriots have been dealing with the worst secondary in the league during their prime Brady years. They are constantly trying to draft at CB and reshuffle the secondary. That isn't rebuilding, its trying to get better.
by Coughlin or Reese. They keep everything so close to the vest. If you do read what they say, you will end up trying desperately to weasel something out of their words in a vain attempt to read between the lines.
I'd like to see: On Diehl & Webster:
"Both guys fucked the team up last year. Screwed the pooch. I can go back over film and count how many games they blew for their fans and teammates."
On Cruz:
"He's just a young ungrateful douche bag. If we didn't give him the chance to start here with the NY Giants, the bastard would be dancing for Chip & Dales for tips about now."
On David Carr
"He can eat shit for all I care. He took off for SF a few years ago and washed out there to. If he leaves again, the whining bitch has best not try our door again."
on this team I would prefer to keep C Webster and Cut DD.
Yes Webster, had a bad year, but he had a broken hand and some other injuries. Which FA CB, is going to replace him for less money and play better? I don't see any rookies coming in and out performing him. Besides the spanking by the Ravens, he seemed to be in position on many routes, he just didn't make the plays.
I don't disagree but the difference here is our internal options at most of these spots are pretty weak. I'm excited about Wilson starting but is James Brewer really a great bet to be as good as Diehl let alone better (and I FULLY realize Diehl might be close to done). Hosley over Webster? Hosley wasn't all that impressive to me as a rookie. We have nobody currently on the roster who can replace Boothe, Robinson replacing Bennett? Sure it's possible but to go from 0 snaps to replacing his production is probably a little bit unlikely. Replacing Phillips with..? Like I said they are rebuilding on the fly and they can be very good this year but it's going to be a tougher off-season for Reese than any I can remember.
He's currently one of the best CBs we have, even with the down year. If we can tweak his number, or cut and resign at a lower number, I hope we can do it. But tough decisions are being made right now.
I know free agency starts March 12th, but I was reading somewhere there is only 3 days left to sign our own players.
Here is the quote I read " Although Welker wants to finish his career in New England and the Patriots want him back, we're less three days from the negotiating window for free agents."
Is this the case?
We haven't even gotten to the draft yet, or Free agency. Â
and yeah, Hosley seemd to be the real deal. Losing Webster at this point would be such a savings that I think we have to do it. And he was glaringly bad last season. So I don't see it as a step back to move on from him.
This is the worst time to really evaluate the roster. All that has happened so far are cuts and a couple of re-signings. After the draft and FA period, we'll have a much better idea what we're dealing with. The roster right now is still very incomplete.
not a rebuilding season but what the Giants will do is add veterans at a cheaper price over guys like Webster at 9mill simple as that. That money will be used to keep players like Cruz.
when you have a hall of fame QB in his prime. The front office and the coaching staff need to figure out the pieces that have to go around him and it shouldn't take more than one off season.
if he agrees to a cut because he did not perform nearly up to his contract last year. The Giants may need to keep him even if he doesn't accept a cut because of the uncertainty at CB this year.
Diehl should be kept for emergency duty at veteran minimum if he wants to stay one more year.
they're talking about signing your players before free agency starts, after which you will be competing with other teams for the players. You can still negotiate with them after free agency starts, you'll just be in a weaker position.
looked like the "real deal"? He showed some decent flashes but he also was awful at times. Not suggesting he won't be good but if he he looked like the "real deal" I don't think the Webster question would be looming as large as it is.
webster was terrible last year and hasn't had to desire to tackle in the last 3-4 years.
diehl was also terrible last year and was outperformed by locklear a journeyman free agent.
canty was OK last year but it's not like the run defense became good when he came back. he missed half the year. the half year that he missed the team went 6-2.
bradshaw was fine, but he wasn't significantly better than brown. in fact it appeared that brown played better than bradshaw last year and we have wilson waiting in the wings ready to break out.
and boley just flat out sucked last year and was benched late in the season once williams became healthy.
what this shows me though about webster is CB just jumped to the top of the wish list and i would not be surprised at all to see them go CB in round 1 or 2.
but losing him isn't going to hurt much, if at all. He's a decent reserve at this point in his career.
Now Webster....I think he can still play and play well in the league, but at that salary, you have to re-evaluate.
Perhaps cutting both those guys allows the Giants to persue someone in FA at corner.
And while I know everyone wants to lock up Cruz, I have a feeling the Giants are looking to improve the roster elsewhere first. They have Cruz for this season, and plenty of time to negotiate.
an infusion of new players and leaders on this team. They did not look motivated or hungry at the end of last season. We need to get HEALTHY and younger.
I have absolutely no desire to see Webster go anywhere, although his base salary obviously needs to be reduced. His release would add yet another question mark to the several that confront the 2013 Giants. Absent the salary cap, Webster would be on the team no questions asked.
people look at Webster as the scapegoat for last season....
Glaringly bad? Yes, there were plays where he let the receiver go, and they made long gains or tds....but this has gone on for the last 3 seasons, and I think that is part of Fewell's system, where everyone is not on the same page....
And yes, he had some good coverage where receivers made plays on him.....there is no doubt that Webster had a bad year, but thinking that this guy is one of the worst CB's out there would be a huge mistake....he had a bad year.....based on that, he is not worth 7 mil, because his ability is in question.....I still think he is a good CB....this being a contract year for him, he could have a huge season.... thinking that Hosley is the answer, would be a huge mistake....and Prince has yet to stay on the field for a full season....who else do we have?
We already have 5.6 mil in "dead" money from our first three cuts, and have lost 3 starters....cutting Diehl and Webster creates another 5 mil in "dead" money......so that would mean 4 starters gone, and 10 mil off the top of the cap, so if the cap is 121 mil, you only have 111 mil to work with plus replacing 4 starters....
We have the "potential" of losing 10 starters to FAcy....that is a REBUILD.....
We are not privy to what the players are asking, if they will take cuts, and whether the Giants are looking to next year as a patchwork attempt to get to the SB or whether they are thinking more in terms of two or three years down the road....I hope they are not in the same "fairy tale" dream Jerruh was, thinking his team would be in the SB because it was played there the next season....
Hard decisions have to be made, and it would be crazy to focus on next season just because the SB is in the Medowlands.....Reese would have to pull a rabbit out of his ass to accomplish something like that.....
You also "seem" to have a difference of opinion between Reese and Coughlin, as far as use of the personnel Reese has drafted.....I think Coughlin really tried to repeat, and the only way he felt he could do that was with his vets, rather than trust rookies or free agents....
All of these scenarios are factors in the decisions that have to be made not for just the upcoming season, but for future years also.....the next few seasons will show us not only what kind of a team we have, but what kind of a front office we have....
why again would we be rebuilding? Because we are letting go of an aged corner who's more interested in how flat his flat brims are than covering anyone? Or is it because we're cutting an aged LT/RT/G who was a gap fill from the beginning and hasn't performed well at all in the past 2 years? Remember when we all sat here during his injury and said they were better w/o him and Coughlin was a fool for his loyalty?
This team still has a top 4-5 QB, a ton of young skill talent (DWils, AndreBrown, Nicks, Cruz, Randle, etc), and one of the top 3 staff/organization mixes in the league. Give me a break on this "rebuilding" fodder. The team is just as talented as any other in the league. Reese will do his work in the draft, pick up a few veteran FA's at justifiable deals, and we'll be competing for the NFC East and a playoff spot again (get in an see what happens worked twice)
Calm the hysteria of March football talk
I'd be shocked if both were retained at their current cap hits Â
They're two very strong examples of last-year contracts, 30+ vets who are coming off poor seasons, and have no leverage other than to refuse a paycut and take a shot at UFA.
Once free agency begins, we'll see if NYG pursues a RT to replace Diehl. Webster is a much more useful player to us, but they really should adjust his pay.
Neither will be back at their current salary, but both could very well be back via pay cuts. DD will get no more than the vet minimum from another team so his motivation to restructure is high. Webster is in a bit of a different category but obviously ripe for restructure as well.
As to 2013 potentially being a down year, I would argue that due to under-performance and injuries to veterans, 2012 WAS the down year, and we are likely to see improvement in '13 despite new faces. I.e. new, young and/or inexperienced guys will probably play "as well", and likely better, as some of the departing vets did in 2012.
for whatever reason. There have been times when players have had an off year and come back strong the next. Since there is no guarantee, though, I doubt the Giants take the risk and keep him at his current salary.
It's utterly bizarre, but this team is blindly loyal to Diehl. He may have a fake competition with Brewer in TC, but if he's on this team -- and I have no doubt he will, perhaps even on his current cap number -- he's going to end up starting somewhere on the line.
Make your peace with it now, folks.
It's Diehl vs Brewer for the starting RT gig, at this moment Â
That's a fact. A fluid situation, but that's where it stands right now.
Perhaps we make a move in UFA to secure a RT, and then release Diehl. If not, it is what is is and we see if we procure a RT prospect via the draft who can challenge for the gig in camp.
as severely hampering the performance of Diehl, Snee, and Baas last season.
They're going to be given every opportunity to prove themselves before being cut or benched. In DD's case, I don't agree with it either, but it is what it is.
but I think he can still perform well. He's just simply making too much money. Would love to see him back with the team at a lower price. Diehl is a liability, and is probably best that he go and make space for a young guy to come up.
Just about every team is in transition from one year to the next. The one's that aren't have the QB and coaching staff in place.
This team has a boat load of star power and quality starter talent. If this is a rebuilding year then far too many players didn't step up in 2013.
Giants have been treading water for the past 2 seasons with 18 wins combined. They were able to turn up the heat in January/Feb of 2012 but the signs of an older team were everywhere.
I like that we are getting younger. Hungrier. We have seen countless young players step up for the older incumbents time and time again over the past 8 seasons. We need to transition from the old to the new and based on history this will be a positive. Reese and Coughlin are as good as any in the business when it comes to identifying and coaching up talent.
also gets a lighter schedule in 2013 and they are coming off a failed season. Odds are in our favor that this team turns things around and wins 10-11 games.
with rookie draft picks. They are replacing the older guard with the 1-2-3rd year players.
The toughest positions to find and the most important commodity to maintain are in place. The QB. The WRs. The DL, for the most part and the LT are all in place. The coaching staff is in place.
Finding a #2 corner if Web is released and a new RT which both may be on the roster is not that difficult to find. Especially when you factor in that 2nd and 3rd year players like Hosley, Brewer and others have been sharpening their teeth under this staff.
I like where this team is at. They need a fresh face or two in the starting lineup and it seems that the majority of times this team asked a relative unknown player to emerge after releasing a house hold name, that unknown steps up.
It's an exciting time for the Giants. I love seeing the younger guys emerge.
Only the Giants know what they really think about Brewer, Mosley, etc. Â
But if I'm Jerry Reese, I don't want to go into the draft looking for an OT. I think it's more important to find an interior lineman with some versatility...a C/OG-type like Brian Schwenke, Travis Frederick, or BBI-fave Barrett Jones.
As for Webster, I'd like to keep him, but at a much-reduced salary. If he doesn't agree to a severe paycut, I'd cut him outright and look to sign a reasonably-priced vet, along with drafting a top-tier CB. I like Webster. I'd be sorry to see him go, especially if he was replaced by an underacheiver like Chris Houston, but his price doesn't justify his play.
Now, it could be that injuries really did hamper his play last year. I can buy that. But he's 31, and I doubt he's in the Giants' long-term plans. Better to cut him a year early than a year late. Short-term pain vs. long-term gain.
Think about the number of positions where vets may have been placeholders:
OT: Diehl/Locklear --> Brewer
OG: Boothe --> Mosley/???
RB: Bradshaw --> Wilson/Brown
TE: Bennett --> Robinson
WR3: Hixon --> Randle
the year prior it better fuckin be a transition year. A transition to better things in 2013.
I have no problems showing optimism with this group. Temper your expectations all you want but you can bet your ass that Reese and Mara and Coughlin have lofty expectations for 2013. And they should.
You guys were killing Webster, Osi, Diehl and others all season long. Now all of a sudden their departures will doom this 2013 season?
It's March. Let this off season play out. Odds are the Giants line up a lethal offense and a lethal pass rush in 2013. That kind of team can go places.
I dont see them getting rid of him off 1 bad year unless there is zero financial sgreement.
There is no replacement on the market who covers opponents no 1 receivers. There is also nlt a guy in thd draft stepping right in.
While i have no doubt Prince could be the no 1, Holsey may even be the 2. Where is the rest of thd CB. You need at least 3 real good CB in todays game.
Here are Webster's and Diehl's contracts courtesy of overthecap.com & Â
•The total cap savings for releasing both now would be $12,075,000.
•Releasing Diehl would result in a cap saving total of $4,825,000.
•Releasing Webster would save $7,250,000 against the 2013 cap.
•Each player has one year left on his deal.
i admit i am less understanding and forgiving than some others about our terrible defensively play for almost 4 years straight now (since the '09 season). that is a long time to be playing bad football. it's about more than coaching.
I'm tired of watching rookie QBs and inept offenses have field days against our D.
thank god for the magical 6-game run ... that is exactly how they should've been playing (more or less) the entire time. But they just don't. call it heart, call it desire. call it character. whatever.
Statistically been ranked as one of the worst defenses in several categories thru the last 4 years. it slowly started when we lost strahan and then A.P. no balls, no swagger, no intensity.
it's just time to go in a completely different direction on defense, with the players. and I'm glad they're doing that.
canty, boley, webster, osi - it's time for these guys to go. these are the guys who've been on the field the last 4 years while our defense has sucked.
i'm also glad they are trying to keep the 1 guy - kenny phillips - who has played consistently excellent football for us on D. altho i doubt he'll stick around unless his knee scares everyone else away.
but given the loyalty the Giants have do you think they'll bring Diehl in to a situation where he needs to fight for a job to only then potentially lose and get cut at the end of camp? The Giants seem like traditionally they don't do that to vets, they cut them early and give them time to find jobs. Unless I'm missing someone.
I don't see Diehl as a backup at his salary, and unless the FO knows something we don't (which is entirely possible) I don't think he's starting material any longer.
that's the only thing I see against it being Diehl vs. Brewer for RT. Arguing against myself (but not necessarily for Diehl - at his current salary) I also don't see them handing the job to Brewer. I think most likely situation is Diehl takes a pay cut or another veteran low $$ RT (like Locklear) is brought in to compete for the job and provide depth should he lose.
You don't cut Webster if he agrees to a paycut. You also don't cut him without a plan for a suitable FA replacement in place. You don't count on a rookie to replace him this year, but you do draft one anyway, because there's always a need for them, you'll have a shot at a good one, and the draft isn't just about 2013.
to bbi poster klaatu, i think if webster is cut it's a pretty safe bet CB would be their #1 priority in free agency.
NYG usually throw big $ at their biggest perceived need in free agency. and they usually get "their guy". they will have a plan in place when webster is cut
and it says here its a good opportunity to bring in a Tampa 2/zone CB who fits our scheme better. also have T2 as a wild card!
I think Diehl expects to win the gig, and I think the brass expects Diehl to win the gig. Between he and Brewer, it's probably the most likely outcome too.
It appears the wildcard would be if they sign a RT via UFA, perhaps at that point they outright release DD. They'll try to not let a veteran go at a "bad time" in terms of finding another job, but it's not always feasible, ie a training camp release.
A lot of people have been writing stuff that suggests that the Giants are going to attempt to re-load on talent to compete in future years. I don't believe it's the case as I believe the Giants are looking to win next year. If this is the case, Jon's view that Diehl is penciled in at starter makes the most sense, particularly if they believe he was injured last year.
Even if they don't sign Cruz to a long term deal, he's going to be playing for his next contract.
Also, if Diehl doesn't take a paycut and still sticks Â
it further suggests they expect him to win the gig, as starting RTs get paid well enough where his earning the gig warrants the price tag, in theory.
I'm looking at the UFA RTs that on the market next week if I'm Reese, and try to grab a player I want. Diehl would then either accept a paycut, or be cut loose in favor of a Locklear-type signing to be the swing tackle, etc.
Summary of the Diehl & Webster situation w/respect to the Salary Cap: Â
•The Cap Savings for releasing both players would be $12,075,000.
•Releasing Diehl would result in a cap saving total of $4,825,000.
•Releasing Webster would save $7,250,000 against the 2013 cap.
•The total Dead Money for releasing both players in 2013 would be $4,673,000.
•According to overthecap.com, the Giants are $3,832,113 under the cap.
Source: http://www.overthecap.com/nfl-cap-space.php?Year=2013
•If the Giants were to cuts both players, they'd be under the cap by $15,907,113.
•After getting under the cap by $15,907,113 the Giants will have to use $6,225,000 to sign their 3 key Restricted Free Agents (RFAs): Cruz, S. Brown, and A. Brown.
•After setting aside the money that they need under the cap to sign their RFAs, the Giants would be $9,682,113 under the salary cap.
Even with cuts, the Giants won't have a lot of money to throw around in free agency. I don't expect them to sign any FA CB to a pricey, multi-year deal. What I do expect (if they cut Webster) is a stop-gap, someone on a one-year "prove it" deal, a la Martellus Bennett's at TE last year. Maybe a two-year deal, but that's it.
I agree that they will target a Right Tackle in FA, cap wise it may not look like it will work but when it comes to signing players entering their prime that will be part of the core, Abrahms and Reese make it work, just as they did with Rolle, Canty, Baas.
There is no middle ground with Reese, it's either swing for the fence FA signings with young players in their prime to fill a need or veteran depth for 1 year min. Contracts
I cant see Reese going into the draft with Diehl at his current number which is just irresponsible versus Brewer.
I think Reese knows the oline is a huge issue going forward, and signing a RT with Beatty in the fold will solidify it for the rest of Eli's prime. It allows him not to rely on Brewer and though I'm not comparing him to CC Brown, the potential is there and I can't see him ever letting that happen
Andre Smith is my target but if Smith commands more money on the open market then we just paid Beatty, it won't happen as they won't want to upset the locker room structure of paying an outsider at a less premium position. A guy like Cherlius in that case makes a ton of sense. Keep an eye on Eric Winston if he's released from the Chiefs.
Personally im greedy and want Smtih first or Vollmer (even more of a pipe dream because he can play LT- Pats are reportedly not budging off their offer of 6 mil per year)
I can't see Reese allowing the Giants going into draft with a bullseye or no choice but to take Fluker. It hamstrings them and that's not his MO
Just curious, have you heard they are targeting a RT in FA?
even more room under the cap beginning on March 8th, since that's the 12 month anniversary of his announced re-structuring from last year. You have to 12 months to restructure a deal in which a player makes more money up front, but you don't have to wait at all to restructure a player who'll make less money than before (this is sometimes called "restructuring down"). In this case, a player's contract can be restructured multiple times, as per agent Joel Corey from the National Football Post.
they haven't cut Diehl yet. That's some serious cap savings and you should be able to get Diehl-level performance from somebody who's a lot cheaper.
Webster is a tougher call. He's just a really odd player. You don't think of CBs as "streaky" but he is. If we get him on a hot streak, he's probably worth keeping. If he plays badly, then he's killing us with that cap #.
Bottom line, if it comes down to a young guy vs. and older guy, we've got to cut the older guy. Keeping Cruz, Nicks, JPP, Linval, etc is the priority.
This money doesn't have to be made room for though until it's time to sign those players, so the Giants are in no rush to take care of making room for the rookie draft picks yet.
If Eli's deal is restructured on Monday, March 10th, let's say, then the Giants will have a lot of money to work with entering free agency. They'll probably sign cheap Linebackers and depth. They possibly may spend money on a guy like a Gosder Cherilus to fill the RT position, but that's about as out there as they'll get. I'm betting they use the draft to fill that slot, along with possibly re-signing Diehl to a vet. minimum type deal with incentives if he hasn't found a home later this offseason.
Forgot to link the source for the Giants' estimated Rookie Salary Cap Â
I read somewhere that cutting Winston wouldn't make cap sense for the Chiefs. I could be wrong, I don't have a link or anything. I know they tagged Albert, and, reportedly, they're not opposed to trading him, but I don't know if they'll get many takers.
Personally, I think Andy Reid won't take Joeckel (or any other OT) with the #1 pick (assuming he can't trade out of it). I think he'll go D-Line...Sharif Floyd, most likely.
Makes sense since he is a decent two way player, a Parcells tight end which is pretty much is the same type of player Pope looks for.
I just hope thats not the only thing they are going to be active with early. In Reese's tenure if they don't go after someone early, it means they will be waiting for the 1 year vet min type players later on in FA.
I truly believe if we get RT shored up, Reese can go all-in on BPA (defensively) in the draft and get an infusion of youth and talent on that side of the ball which is needed.
I think RT is the key in free agency. Other signings figure to be veteran depth spare parts. But, shore up RT and they're in a much stronger position for the draft, as you said.
•Cutting Winston now, who has 3 years left on his deal would result in $3,500,000 of Cap Savings.
•By cutting Winston now, the Chiefs would have $3,000,000 of Dead Money counting against their 2013 Salary Cap.
And they could, but Reid took D-Linemen in the first round in six out of twelve drafts with Philly, and they might do with Floyd what the Chargers did with Corey Liuget. Anyway, we'll find out on April 25.
As for Fasano...after what Reese said abut Adrien Robinson, and after they already re-signed Bear Pascoe...and after what Pope said about one particular TE prospect that he liked in the draft...I don't know why they'd spend any money on a FA TE? Not with the needs they have to fill at other spots, with limited FA money.
if Bennett leaves, we'll sign one. Pascoe is more of a move TE, the rest are relative unknowns. We need the TE who can block inline, block on the edge and in space, and get downfield to provide another option for Eli.
I've been making the point about FA RTs for months now. Â
Beginning with this thread from 12/31, where I first mentioned Cherilus.
Quote:
Gosder Cherilus might be available without breaking the bank.
Klaatu : 12/31/2012 11:45 am
I think he'd thrive under Coughlin and Flaherty, and anchor the right side for the next five or six years.
Of course, it all depends on the money, as well as how the Giants feel about Diehl and Brewer, and, to a lesser extent, Mosley and McCants. As long as they don't go into the draft having to find a right tackle, I'll be happy.
the fact Diehl is still on the team (without a paycut) Â
may be indicative of how the staff feels about Brewer starting at RT. If they were confident in him taking over, I can't imagine Diehl would still be hanging around.
Diehl's greatest strength has been his versatility. Â
And with questions at LG as well as RT, I don't think they'd cut him until those questions were answered, one way or another. He's like "mad money," lol.
lets hope that its realistic and not just wishful thinking regarding RT.
The positive, Reese normally fixes the biggest hole on the roster in Free Agency when they don't have an in house candidate waiting. I think its safe to assume Brewer is not that guy or Diehl would be out of here.
Winston, confirms my thought that they would save a nice chunk against the cap, but also remember from a cash flow standpoint a $4.9 million salary is a lot for a player when there could be a logjam at the position.
1) The Giants should not be rebuilding this year of all years...they need to if anything sell out and go for it with NY hosting the Super Bowl.
2) Cutting Canty, Boley, Amhad, Diehl, and Webster is not rebuilding. It's taking out old, washed up guys who are past their prime to free up money to get younger, improving talent.
Canty in 12-sucked
Boley=sucked
Amhad=inhured again
Diehl=sucked
Wenster=sucked
So I don't know how that is a rebuild to get rid of players who sucked last season.
Both players are coming off poor seasons entering the final year of their contracts. Both started in Super Bowl XLII and again in Super Bowl XLVI, but their returns to the Giants are not guaranteed.
Webster’s salary for the upcoming season is $7 million and he’s scheduled to count $9.8 million against the cap. Diehl, 32, is scheduled to make $4.475 million in salary and his cap hit is around $6.9 million. It is virtually impossible for the Giants to bring Webster, 31, and Diehl back at their present salaries.
Link - ( New Window )
It is time to fine players that are going to be given and a shot, and have to step up.
speculate based on tom's quotes
We have Eli, which is good for 8 wins no matter what. Now let's see some young players step up to the next level like Wilson, Randle, Prince and lets see what we draft. It forces us to give a bigger leash to the young talent and I like it, especially talent found by Reese.
I can see possibly considering Painter if he'd play below league minimum (if that were allowed) and maybe be an assistant coach or something too, but if there is another option out there, any other option, I'd strongly consider it.
And I know backup QB is the least of the worries right now, but it's a head-scratcher.
Get a backup for the league minimum that can start learning from Eli. So goes Eli, goes our chances.
Losing Diehl would make this team better .
Webster's best option is to return to the Giants at a reduced price. There won't be much of a market for a thirty year old CB coming off a bad season. The Giants could then offer a little more than his market value as a reward for his tenure and contributions. Maybe add in some incentives in case he really starts to play well again. He needs to understand that this happens to all athletes. He can probably still contribute, but is no longer in the prime of his career.
Name a team not trying to swap aging vets for young guys? The Patriots have been dealing with the worst secondary in the league during their prime Brady years. They are constantly trying to draft at CB and reshuffle the secondary. That isn't rebuilding, its trying to get better.
I'd like to see:
On Diehl & Webster:
"Both guys fucked the team up last year. Screwed the pooch. I can go back over film and count how many games they blew for their fans and teammates."
On Cruz:
"He's just a young ungrateful douche bag. If we didn't give him the chance to start here with the NY Giants, the bastard would be dancing for Chip & Dales for tips about now."
On David Carr
"He can eat shit for all I care. He took off for SF a few years ago and washed out there to. If he leaves again, the whining bitch has best not try our door again."
Yes Webster, had a bad year, but he had a broken hand and some other injuries. Which FA CB, is going to replace him for less money and play better? I don't see any rookies coming in and out performing him. Besides the spanking by the Ravens, he seemed to be in position on many routes, he just didn't make the plays.
Here is the quote I read " Although Welker wants to finish his career in New England and the Patriots want him back, we're less three days from the negotiating window for free agents."
Is this the case?
Diehl should be kept for emergency duty at veteran minimum if he wants to stay one more year.
diehl was also terrible last year and was outperformed by locklear a journeyman free agent.
canty was OK last year but it's not like the run defense became good when he came back. he missed half the year. the half year that he missed the team went 6-2.
bradshaw was fine, but he wasn't significantly better than brown. in fact it appeared that brown played better than bradshaw last year and we have wilson waiting in the wings ready to break out.
and boley just flat out sucked last year and was benched late in the season once williams became healthy.
what this shows me though about webster is CB just jumped to the top of the wish list and i would not be surprised at all to see them go CB in round 1 or 2.
Now Webster....I think he can still play and play well in the league, but at that salary, you have to re-evaluate.
Perhaps cutting both those guys allows the Giants to persue someone in FA at corner.
And while I know everyone wants to lock up Cruz, I have a feeling the Giants are looking to improve the roster elsewhere first. They have Cruz for this season, and plenty of time to negotiate.
They have Eli, good weapons, and some good pieces on defense.
Important thing is to fill in those holes in the draft......it's imperative they have a good draft.
I have absolutely no desire to see Webster go anywhere, although his base salary obviously needs to be reduced. His release would add yet another question mark to the several that confront the 2013 Giants. Absent the salary cap, Webster would be on the team no questions asked.
Hopefully the jump from year 1 to year 2 will be huge for him, but corner needs to always be on an NFL team's radar in this pass first league.
The thing that scares me is we become painfully thin at corner, LB, and DT with our moves this offeason.
I'd have to think we go for something big in FA after clearing all that cap room.
Glaringly bad? Yes, there were plays where he let the receiver go, and they made long gains or tds....but this has gone on for the last 3 seasons, and I think that is part of Fewell's system, where everyone is not on the same page....
And yes, he had some good coverage where receivers made plays on him.....there is no doubt that Webster had a bad year, but thinking that this guy is one of the worst CB's out there would be a huge mistake....he had a bad year.....based on that, he is not worth 7 mil, because his ability is in question.....I still think he is a good CB....this being a contract year for him, he could have a huge season.... thinking that Hosley is the answer, would be a huge mistake....and Prince has yet to stay on the field for a full season....who else do we have?
We already have 5.6 mil in "dead" money from our first three cuts, and have lost 3 starters....cutting Diehl and Webster creates another 5 mil in "dead" money......so that would mean 4 starters gone, and 10 mil off the top of the cap, so if the cap is 121 mil, you only have 111 mil to work with plus replacing 4 starters....
We have the "potential" of losing 10 starters to FAcy....that is a REBUILD.....
We are not privy to what the players are asking, if they will take cuts, and whether the Giants are looking to next year as a patchwork attempt to get to the SB or whether they are thinking more in terms of two or three years down the road....I hope they are not in the same "fairy tale" dream Jerruh was, thinking his team would be in the SB because it was played there the next season....
Hard decisions have to be made, and it would be crazy to focus on next season just because the SB is in the Medowlands.....Reese would have to pull a rabbit out of his ass to accomplish something like that.....
You also "seem" to have a difference of opinion between Reese and Coughlin, as far as use of the personnel Reese has drafted.....I think Coughlin really tried to repeat, and the only way he felt he could do that was with his vets, rather than trust rookies or free agents....
All of these scenarios are factors in the decisions that have to be made not for just the upcoming season, but for future years also.....the next few seasons will show us not only what kind of a team we have, but what kind of a front office we have....
This team still has a top 4-5 QB, a ton of young skill talent (DWils, AndreBrown, Nicks, Cruz, Randle, etc), and one of the top 3 staff/organization mixes in the league. Give me a break on this "rebuilding" fodder. The team is just as talented as any other in the league. Reese will do his work in the draft, pick up a few veteran FA's at justifiable deals, and we'll be competing for the NFC East and a playoff spot again (get in an see what happens worked twice)
Calm the hysteria of March football talk
Once free agency begins, we'll see if NYG pursues a RT to replace Diehl. Webster is a much more useful player to us, but they really should adjust his pay.
As to 2013 potentially being a down year, I would argue that due to under-performance and injuries to veterans, 2012 WAS the down year, and we are likely to see improvement in '13 despite new faces. I.e. new, young and/or inexperienced guys will probably play "as well", and likely better, as some of the departing vets did in 2012.
I think DD comes back here at a pay cut due to familiarity..him with NYG, and NYG with him.
Webster.....now he would have interest on the market IMO.
Diehl, well, proof is in the puddin'.
Make your peace with it now, folks.
Perhaps we make a move in UFA to secure a RT, and then release Diehl. If not, it is what is is and we see if we procure a RT prospect via the draft who can challenge for the gig in camp.
They're going to be given every opportunity to prove themselves before being cut or benched. In DD's case, I don't agree with it either, but it is what it is.
Just about every team is in transition from one year to the next. The one's that aren't have the QB and coaching staff in place.
This team has a boat load of star power and quality starter talent. If this is a rebuilding year then far too many players didn't step up in 2013.
Giants have been treading water for the past 2 seasons with 18 wins combined. They were able to turn up the heat in January/Feb of 2012 but the signs of an older team were everywhere.
I like that we are getting younger. Hungrier. We have seen countless young players step up for the older incumbents time and time again over the past 8 seasons. We need to transition from the old to the new and based on history this will be a positive. Reese and Coughlin are as good as any in the business when it comes to identifying and coaching up talent.
The toughest positions to find and the most important commodity to maintain are in place. The QB. The WRs. The DL, for the most part and the LT are all in place. The coaching staff is in place.
Finding a #2 corner if Web is released and a new RT which both may be on the roster is not that difficult to find. Especially when you factor in that 2nd and 3rd year players like Hosley, Brewer and others have been sharpening their teeth under this staff.
I like where this team is at. They need a fresh face or two in the starting lineup and it seems that the majority of times this team asked a relative unknown player to emerge after releasing a house hold name, that unknown steps up.
It's an exciting time for the Giants. I love seeing the younger guys emerge.
As for Webster, I'd like to keep him, but at a much-reduced salary. If he doesn't agree to a severe paycut, I'd cut him outright and look to sign a reasonably-priced vet, along with drafting a top-tier CB. I like Webster. I'd be sorry to see him go, especially if he was replaced by an underacheiver like Chris Houston, but his price doesn't justify his play.
Now, it could be that injuries really did hamper his play last year. I can buy that. But he's 31, and I doubt he's in the Giants' long-term plans. Better to cut him a year early than a year late. Short-term pain vs. long-term gain.
If he's penciled in I hope it comes with a good eraser.
OT: Diehl/Locklear --> Brewer
OG: Boothe --> Mosley/???
RB: Bradshaw --> Wilson/Brown
TE: Bennett --> Robinson
WR3: Hixon --> Randle
DT: Canty --> Austin/???
DE: Umenyiora --> ???
LB: Boley --> Williams
LB: Blackburn/Rivers/Kiwanuka --> ???/???
FS: Phillips --> Hill/Brown
CB: Webster --> Hosley
If the young vets are actually ready to play, we might look back on 2012 as the year we overpaid some older guys to keep seats warm.
Every year is a transition year in some sense. As long as Eli is around, the goal will be to manage change while winning.
I have no problems showing optimism with this group. Temper your expectations all you want but you can bet your ass that Reese and Mara and Coughlin have lofty expectations for 2013. And they should.
You guys were killing Webster, Osi, Diehl and others all season long. Now all of a sudden their departures will doom this 2013 season?
It's March. Let this off season play out. Odds are the Giants line up a lethal offense and a lethal pass rush in 2013. That kind of team can go places.
Hosley was a rookie last year. The young OTs were all drafted with the knowledge that they'd be a work in progress. True projects.
Young Guys can go from zero to hero in a year's time.
There is no replacement on the market who covers opponents no 1 receivers. There is also nlt a guy in thd draft stepping right in.
While i have no doubt Prince could be the no 1, Holsey may even be the 2. Where is the rest of thd CB. You need at least 3 real good CB in todays game.
•The total cap savings for releasing both now would be $12,075,000.
•Releasing Diehl would result in a cap saving total of $4,825,000.
•Releasing Webster would save $7,250,000 against the 2013 cap.
•Each player has one year left on his deal.
I. Here are Webster's numbers:
II. Here are the links to Diehl's numbers:
i admit i am less understanding and forgiving than some others about our terrible defensively play for almost 4 years straight now (since the '09 season). that is a long time to be playing bad football. it's about more than coaching.
I'm tired of watching rookie QBs and inept offenses have field days against our D.
thank god for the magical 6-game run ... that is exactly how they should've been playing (more or less) the entire time. But they just don't. call it heart, call it desire. call it character. whatever.
Statistically been ranked as one of the worst defenses in several categories thru the last 4 years. it slowly started when we lost strahan and then A.P. no balls, no swagger, no intensity.
it's just time to go in a completely different direction on defense, with the players. and I'm glad they're doing that.
canty, boley, webster, osi - it's time for these guys to go. these are the guys who've been on the field the last 4 years while our defense has sucked.
i'm also glad they are trying to keep the 1 guy - kenny phillips - who has played consistently excellent football for us on D. altho i doubt he'll stick around unless his knee scares everyone else away.
I don't see Diehl as a backup at his salary, and unless the FO knows something we don't (which is entirely possible) I don't think he's starting material any longer.
that's the only thing I see against it being Diehl vs. Brewer for RT. Arguing against myself (but not necessarily for Diehl - at his current salary) I also don't see them handing the job to Brewer. I think most likely situation is Diehl takes a pay cut or another veteran low $$ RT (like Locklear) is brought in to compete for the job and provide depth should he lose.
You don't cut Webster if he agrees to a paycut. You also don't cut him without a plan for a suitable FA replacement in place. You don't count on a rookie to replace him this year, but you do draft one anyway, because there's always a need for them, you'll have a shot at a good one, and the draft isn't just about 2013.
NYG usually throw big $ at their biggest perceived need in free agency. and they usually get "their guy". they will have a plan in place when webster is cut
and it says here its a good opportunity to bring in a Tampa 2/zone CB who fits our scheme better. also have T2 as a wild card!
It appears the wildcard would be if they sign a RT via UFA, perhaps at that point they outright release DD. They'll try to not let a veteran go at a "bad time" in terms of finding another job, but it's not always feasible, ie a training camp release.
Even if they don't sign Cruz to a long term deal, he's going to be playing for his next contract.
I'm looking at the UFA RTs that on the market next week if I'm Reese, and try to grab a player I want. Diehl would then either accept a paycut, or be cut loose in favor of a Locklear-type signing to be the swing tackle, etc.
•Releasing Diehl would result in a cap saving total of $4,825,000.
•Releasing Webster would save $7,250,000 against the 2013 cap.
•The total Dead Money for releasing both players in 2013 would be $4,673,000.
•According to overthecap.com, the Giants are $3,832,113 under the cap.
Source: http://www.overthecap.com/nfl-cap-space.php?Year=2013
•If the Giants were to cuts both players, they'd be under the cap by $15,907,113.
•After getting under the cap by $15,907,113 the Giants will have to use $6,225,000 to sign their 3 key Restricted Free Agents (RFAs): Cruz, S. Brown, and A. Brown.
•After setting aside the money that they need under the cap to sign their RFAs, the Giants would be $9,682,113 under the salary cap.
I agree that they will target a Right Tackle in FA, cap wise it may not look like it will work but when it comes to signing players entering their prime that will be part of the core, Abrahms and Reese make it work, just as they did with Rolle, Canty, Baas.
There is no middle ground with Reese, it's either swing for the fence FA signings with young players in their prime to fill a need or veteran depth for 1 year min. Contracts
I cant see Reese going into the draft with Diehl at his current number which is just irresponsible versus Brewer.
I think Reese knows the oline is a huge issue going forward, and signing a RT with Beatty in the fold will solidify it for the rest of Eli's prime. It allows him not to rely on Brewer and though I'm not comparing him to CC Brown, the potential is there and I can't see him ever letting that happen
Andre Smith is my target but if Smith commands more money on the open market then we just paid Beatty, it won't happen as they won't want to upset the locker room structure of paying an outsider at a less premium position. A guy like Cherlius in that case makes a ton of sense. Keep an eye on Eric Winston if he's released from the Chiefs.
Personally im greedy and want Smtih first or Vollmer (even more of a pipe dream because he can play LT- Pats are reportedly not budging off their offer of 6 mil per year)
I can't see Reese allowing the Giants going into draft with a bullseye or no choice but to take Fluker. It hamstrings them and that's not his MO
Just curious, have you heard they are targeting a RT in FA?
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Joel-Corry.html
Giants cap analysis - ( New Window )
They have Albert, #1 pick where they still most likey will take a tackle if they hold the pick, and drafted Donald Stephenson high last year
Webster is a tougher call. He's just a really odd player. You don't think of CBs as "streaky" but he is. If we get him on a hot streak, he's probably worth keeping. If he plays badly, then he's killing us with that cap #.
Bottom line, if it comes down to a young guy vs. and older guy, we've got to cut the older guy. Keeping Cruz, Nicks, JPP, Linval, etc is the priority.
This money doesn't have to be made room for though until it's time to sign those players, so the Giants are in no rush to take care of making room for the rookie draft picks yet.
If Eli's deal is restructured on Monday, March 10th, let's say, then the Giants will have a lot of money to work with entering free agency. They'll probably sign cheap Linebackers and depth. They possibly may spend money on a guy like a Gosder Cherilus to fill the RT position, but that's about as out there as they'll get. I'm betting they use the draft to fill that slot, along with possibly re-signing Diehl to a vet. minimum type deal with incentives if he hasn't found a home later this offseason.
Click below.
New York Giants 2013 Rookie Pool Estimates courtesy of overthecap.com - ( New Window )
Even the f'ing Jets caught on quicker to Wayne Hunter and moved on from him than this.
Both players were a huge negative for the Giants last year.
Replacing them would be a positive for the 2013 squad vs the 2012 squad
Rookie Pool Estimates for all 32 teams in 2013 | Optimus-NY: 2/18/2013 12:01 pm
Personally, I think Andy Reid won't take Joeckel (or any other OT) with the #1 pick (assuming he can't trade out of it). I think he'll go D-Line...Sharif Floyd, most likely.
I just hope thats not the only thing they are going to be active with early. In Reese's tenure if they don't go after someone early, it means they will be waiting for the 1 year vet min type players later on in FA.
I truly believe if we get RT shored up, Reese can go all-in on BPA (defensively) in the draft and get an infusion of youth and talent on that side of the ball which is needed.
If they stay put and don't take the tackle, I think there is a better chance they take Millner.
**See source below.
•Cutting Winston now, who has 3 years left on his deal would result in $3,500,000 of Cap Savings.
•By cutting Winston now, the Chiefs would have $3,000,000 of Dead Money counting against their 2013 Salary Cap.
Eric Winston's contract information from overthecap.com - ( New Window )
As for Fasano...after what Reese said abut Adrien Robinson, and after they already re-signed Bear Pascoe...and after what Pope said about one particular TE prospect that he liked in the draft...I don't know why they'd spend any money on a FA TE? Not with the needs they have to fill at other spots, with limited FA money.
Klaatu : 12/31/2012 11:45 am
I think he'd thrive under Coughlin and Flaherty, and anchor the right side for the next five or six years.
Of course, it all depends on the money, as well as how the Giants feel about Diehl and Brewer, and, to a lesser extent, Mosley and McCants. As long as they don't go into the draft having to find a right tackle, I'll be happy.
The positive, Reese normally fixes the biggest hole on the roster in Free Agency when they don't have an in house candidate waiting. I think its safe to assume Brewer is not that guy or Diehl would be out of here.
The negative, cap space.
2) Cutting Canty, Boley, Amhad, Diehl, and Webster is not rebuilding. It's taking out old, washed up guys who are past their prime to free up money to get younger, improving talent.
Canty in 12-sucked
Boley=sucked
Amhad=inhured again
Diehl=sucked
Wenster=sucked
So I don't know how that is a rebuild to get rid of players who sucked last season.