Alec Ogletree...

we see this Bulldog in Blue next season and I hate the Bulldogs. Ogletree is going to be a good player for a long time IMO

We need some more attitude in our defense!

He absolutely does not shed blocks to make tackles. Watch the Ala & Neb games. He had 20+ tackles with most 5 or 6 yds down field. He can run, but he is really not a good cover guy.

If he is available in the 2nd yes - but not with the 19th pick

He screams bust to me. Red flags all over the place - drug suspensions, DUI, takes plays off. And for all of his alleged "off the charts" athleticism, his Combine was nothing special.

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at 19 with this many red flags, he better be a sure fire stud. Otherwise, you call yourself the Raiders.

Pass.

He is NOT a run defender. He can't take on blocks. His effort isn't always there. Not a physical presence.

Just put it out of your head.

look at most LBs scouting reports coming out of college it says they can't shed blocks. I know I remember seeing it for Navarro Bowman, James Laurinaitis, Sean Weatherspoon, Von Miller and I am sure many more. They have all turned out to be pretty damn good players. They are doing something right to get 100+ tackles in a 11-12 game season.

a guy who doesnt shed blocks well, use his hands well and who has had a drug suspension AND a DUI right before the combine if who you want as a player ??

Failed a drug test at the combine. Will Hill failed many. Bradshaw was arrested for a few things in college. Serving jail time in the NFL. Diehl & Kareem McKenzie were both arrested for a DUI. I want a guy who had 111 tackles, 11.5 TFL, 3 sacks, 5 pass breakups and an INT in 10 games.

in round 2 instead. I am loving Arthur Brown, I know a lot of people list him as an outside backer but I think he has the instincts and physicality to play the middle. Lots of people had Beason as a WLB coming out too.

Unless the linebacker is out of this world awesome, he won't be productive unless the dline is doing their thing. This team badly needs a quality DT beside Joseph and also some depth in the event that we can't sign Joseph long term. Calling Marvin Austin, wake the fuck up Marvin. Your future awaits!

Quote:

JayRon Hosley Big Rick in FL : 9:59 am Failed a drug test at the combine. Will Hill failed many. Bradshaw was arrested for a few things in college. Serving jail time in the NFL. Diehl & Kareem McKenzie were both arrested for a DUI. I want a guy who had 111 tackles, 11.5 TFL, 3 sacks, 5 pass breakups and an INT in 10 games.

Any of those guys with college troubles 1st round picks? Hell, Bradshaw went in the 7th and Hill went undrafted.

Brown's a terrific player. He's a three-down backer who is exactly the type of player you need in today's NFL, especially since we're in a division that now features RG3 and Chip Kelly's offense. He'd be a great pick in the 2nd.

give me Arthur Brown. I truly see him as a Bowman-eske type of player. High potential, and the kid is a perfect fit in our Defense.

The Giants are sticking with Fewell, then get him a LB that has proven himself in a Tampa Cover 2 Defense. Arthur Brown in the second and a true road grading OL in the 1st, perhaps a DT in the 3rd (Bennie Logan), I'd be more happy with that.

I'm glad you like him too, that makes me feel more confident in my feelings about him. From everything I've read and the few games I've seen, he seems like exactly the type of linebacker we need and that could contribute from Day 1.

...I don't think Marvelous Marvin is listening to you. And based on what I saw of him in college, it's gonna be a long sleep.

He had 100+ tackles. If most of his tackles are 5-6 yds down field, he does not shed blocks.

None of the ILB are worth the 19th pick

...and while the issue of shedding blocks is a fair one, I can guarantee you that I saw many plays when he stepped into the hole, shed a block and cold-cocked the RB.

And these were SEC RBs.

That said, I am personally in favor of going offensive or defensive line in Round 1, especially if someone like Datone Jones, Sheldon Richardson, Bjoern Werner or Jonathan Cooper are there at 19.

I think that's exactly what he is. Regardless of whether he's a WILL or a MIKE, he's the new prototype linebacker for a 4-3 defense to help combat against these wide-open spread passing attacks, some of which feature zone-read concepts.

The fact that Brown weighed in at 241 at the Combine appears to open up the possibility for him to stay in the middle, as long as he hasn't compromised his athleticism and sideline-to-sideline range. And if that's the case, he'd be the No. 1 ILB option for us, IMO.

To give an oversimplified explanation as to why I'd prefer Brown to Ogletree, he'd provide similar three-down capability with superior instincts and comparable, if not better athleticism -- depending on how he's adapted to the weight gain -- but without the explosive tackling that Ogletree is capable of providing. Not to mention that he doesn't come with the significant character baggage of Ogletree.

Pass.

At least Chase Blackburn has a pirate name.

Bradshaw was arrested for taking a Playstation and was drafted in the SEVENTH round.. Will Hill was UNDRAFTED.. neither first round picks.. And Ogletree is NOT great MLB.. sorry..

and the off the field stuff has little to do with it. I don't want an athlete at MLB, I want a football player. Ogletree is an oversized safety who can't shed worth a dime. I saw a play against Alabama where Warmack blocked him with one arm and forced him backwards a good five yards. Yes Warmack is a top player in this draft but Ogletree will see many more like it in the NFL.

We don't just need a sideline to sideline LB. We need an instinctive, smart LB that knows how to line up his teammates, read the QB/ball carrier, fill the gap AND shed blockers. If teams want to get suckered into speed demons who can't block or the inevitable media circus that will be Te'o, that's fine but I don't want it to be Big Blue. Reese always preaches need and value. With that philosophy I'd much rather have someone like Kevin Reddick from UNC or Vince Williams from FSU in the middle rounds instead.

Please check into the BBI Mock Draft Sign Up thread and just let us know if you plan to return as GMs for WAS and CLE this year... Thanks!

Sorry to miller this thread...
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Sorry about that, totally missed that thread. Checked in.

ON The field. Off the field--I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt since I don't have the same access to his background information NFL teams will do.

Ogletree in 10 games had 11 tackles with 11.5 tackles for loss and 3 sacks, 5 QB hurries.

Compare to Arthur Brown who had 100 tackles in 13 games with 7 tackles for loss and 1 sack, 1 QB hurry.

Ogletree, of course, played with better talent up but saying he makes all of his plays down-field is erroneous.



I will also readily admit that he doesn't shed blocks all that well, but personally I think he does play physically.

My take is that in the way the NFL is evolving beating OL one on one is Much less important than it used to be.

You need a guy who can rush the passer (which he can), not be a huge liability in coverage (and he's very good in that area), and a guy who can run sideliene to sideline well(which he can also do). Very few players in the NFL get by anymore with stacking, shedding, the blocker and making plays on a consistent basis, and most of them that do that are liabilities in other areas.

Most of the big plays in the run game are made by guys who are unblocked or terrific athletes who can up space in a short time. And big plays is what wins football now.


Just my two cents.

Hit on it. Giants are sticking with Fewell, and the likely weakness/fails on D were because he didn't/doesn't have T-2 type players and patchworked whatever he inherited into that scheme, and last year even had to further patchwork guys due to injuries, and don't get/don't want to play in that scheme(KP, maybe CW). This off-season will be to acquire those type players for the D; even as limited as the team is in cap.
It's even likely that we 'miss' an opportunity to draft a player who seemed to fall to us, for a player more adept at that scheme.
Ogletree? If they ARE interested, JR will have a LONG talk with MReich(sp) about him. Is McClain still available:-)?

Mark Richt?

...you make several good points.

One I'd like to reiterate (in my own words):

The idea of LBs taking head on NFL linemen and stoning them in their tracks in order to make a tackle just doesn't happen all that much.

Even one of the greatest NFL LBs of all time -- Ray Lewis -- couldn't really do that very well.

I suspect a lot of fans have in their minds a mental image of Dick Butkus cold-cocking a OG and then close lining a running back around the neck.

But there's one thing entirely out of place with that image: Dick Butkus was nearly as big as the OL he took on.

But that's just not reality today.

Good points. I just don't see the Giants taking a guy in the middle of round 1 at a non-premier position who also has red flags and whose workout numbers didn't backup his supposed athleticism.

To say Ogletree was surrounded by more talent than Brown is about as big of an understatement as you could make.

Ogletree played behind two 350-pound nose tackles who clogged up the middle and rotated in and out of games to keep each other fresh. One of those nose tackles, John Jenkins, is widely viewed as a 2nd rounder.

Jarvis Jones was the player every opposing offense was most concerned about in each and every game Georgia played. He was a legitimate Heisman candidate who was the most feared pass rusher in all of college football not named Jadeveon Clowney.

Cornelius Washington, a third round prospect, was one of the starting DEs in their 3-4 alignment.

On the other hand, Brown was the unquestioned leader of a K-State defense that ranked 24th in the country in points allowed despite playing in a conference known for its high-powered offenses.

It also goes without saying that prospects shouldn't be compared by collegiate stat lines. Discussing how a prospect's skill set translates to the next level is far more productive. If we were going by stat lines, Damontre Moore would still be viewed as a possible Top 5 pick in the eyes of most draftniks who initially had him ranked that high.

As for the traits you specifically praised Ogletree for -- pass coverage and having sideline-to-sideline range -- Brown has those in spades. And he's a more instinctive player who doesn't come with the character baggage. Not to mention the fact that he's being discussed as a 2nd round option, while Ogletree is a player some are hoping for at 19.

Tackles in college depict nothing. So he has 15 tackles against KY with no NFL players - great. Despite his big tackle performance against Ala, he was not good. There are 30 guys who can make tackles 5 yd downfield.

Watch the tape of Nebraska and tell where he made 1 play where you said this guy can play in the NFL vs being the 19th pick overall.

Just because he can run does not mean he is a good cover LB.

In later rounds maybe, but not with the 19th pick

check out his games, he's not even that good. watch arthur brown or khaseem greene. these little OLB's are better options in the middle than ogletree

With Arthur Brown so badly the kid would have been much more on the radar. Kid was one of the best prospects in all of the country coming out of HS. Would love him in RD 2

now I am going to be really sad if we don't draft Arthur Brown, haha.

Lionhart. I have read this without commenting until now: Brown is the best 4-3 LB in this draft.

i'd be happy with at 19. he does everything well and he can play all three LB positions

i'd rather go OL or DL at 19

The thing with Brown is that he's being discussed as a possible second round option, not someone who would need to be taken at 19. If you're hoping for the BPA on the OL or DL at 19, then there's a chance we could do that and still end up with Brown in the 2nd.

Minter in the second or maybe Vince Williams in the fourth or fifth would probably be better MIKE solutions.

would take him in a heartbeat...big time playmaker who's going to be all over the field..difference maker type LB, imo

It's my understanding that you can't make plays if your suspended

but in this defense, where they play lots of zone. hes going to have understand his keys, not bite on the underneath routes, feel routes coming around and getting the proper depth. we already have a good man coverage guy in j-will. we need smart backers that have the recognition AND athleticism to be a good zone defender.

i question ogletrees football instincts. they arent elite. its not a bad thing overall, but for an ILB, its a terrible thing for a first round prospect.

It's funny you mention that. I was going to post a lengthy response about Brown's prowess in that area, but The Shutdown Corner published an article about Brown earlier this week that touched on this very subject.

From Doug Farrar of Yahoo!:

Quote:

Looks natural when dropping into coverage -- has a good backpedal and doesn't trip over his own feet when he needs to change direction. Could be a regular curl/flat pass defender in intermediate spaces; outstanding recovery speed will allow him to make plays even if he's burned. Natural zone defender against the run or pass. Can cover tight ends and shot receivers with relative ease. Stays with the quarterback when in coverage, and his diagnostic skills would make him a natural for defenses in desperate need to counter read-option quarterbacks. Has the lateral movement skills to be placed as the only player at his depth and close to either side.

In the first paragraph of Farrar's writeup that I quoted.

It should be slot receivers, not shot receivers.

I don't know the particulars about his shoulder injury, but I hope he's healthy enough to work out at his Pro Day, which is on Tuesday, March 12.

YES, I hope that he Giants draft Alec and move him to the strongside the day they draft him. Last time I checked, Boley is gone and River's is never healthy and will be free agent. So, the big question is... Who do the Giants play on the stongside linebacker spot? Keep Williams on the weak side and move Kiwa to the end spot and then draft Ogletree team mate, John Jenkins, in the second round.

I mentioned Ogletree and Browns' numbers because someone said that Ogletree made "most of his tackles" 5 or 6 yards down the field, while that is true (it's true of every linebacker) the fact is he made MORE impact plays than nearly all draftable players, Arthur Brown was for comparison. College stats don't mean anything. But similiary someone mentioned Ogeltree's numbers are just because of the talent surrounding him...Luke Kuechly had less surrounding him than Arthur Brown and averaged nearly 200 tackles a year so that's not a good excuse either.


For the record I have both Brown and Ogletree as 1st round picks, but I think people are being unfair to Ogletree and his reputation


I have watched the tape...He makes a Lot of impact plays all over because he is supremely athletic in terms of his ability to change directions, play sideline to sideline and close spaces fast.

Brown is more instinctive but has limlitations too. If we want to cherry pick games we should discuss Brown's very poor performance against Oregon (good thing Chip Kelly won't be in the Giants division moving forward...!).


I think both are very good players, but I thin Ogletree has more upside, more versatility, and is a better prospect (though like I said I personally think both are 1st round prospects)

This seems like a good thread for it
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