Bob Papa on Cruz

Steve Smith should give Cruz a call.

Have fun playing on your 2 million dollar tender.

3 years?

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so I'm guessing its 21 million guaranteed over 5 years.

21 million guaranteed. He didn't mention total amount or yrs. said he was told how much guaranteed money Cruz turned down

(as great as he has been for 2 years) thisclose to being cut as he had been with the Jets..

Papa: "with the injuries in the NFL, you offer me guaranteed money like that, sign me up."

21 million is a nice chunk of money to be guaranteed for a WR.

If I was him, I'd let it play out and see if I could get more. The only downside is that I have to deal with it as a news item every day until a decision is made.

nothing but rumors to go on but that coupled with the 7 mil a year would be enough for me to sign if I were in his shoes. Easy for me to say..

And mike Wallace screwed this up.

he is very popular in New York/New Jersey but NY fans are very savvy and if they think he is demanding too much...being greedy...and he remains unsigned, they will turn on him very quickly.

Not sure Victor is getting great advice right now...$21M guaranteed with the chance he has for endorsements etc. He's starting to sound greedy.

Until that tender deadline.

My money is on a deal being agreed upon around that date

Not Steve Smith and not what Cruz should be greatful for given his beginings.

The Jets?

That's a fair and reasonable amount of guaranteed money for a slot receiver, NYG probably wont guaranty much more than that.

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for him to sign anything before April 16th. Now if he drags this out beyond that date, then Im going to start having some issues with this.

last year that he would take less money to stay in NY, and that he wouldn't be greedy about what his demands were?

you had not heard that Victor Cruz was on the Jets P.S?

EVERYBODY knows that, just ask Dan Dierdorf...

Mike Wallace got $27M guaranteed and as an unrestricted FA he had a lot more leverage than Cruz.

Now we don't know how the contract was structured, but it's hard to see Cruz getting significantly more guaranteed money than that, even if he were an UFA.

an extension somewhere around midseason.

Cruz plays for the tender in 2013.

is no reason for him to sign anything for 2 weeks. He is trying to get the most money he can after getting paid relatively pennies for his performance the last 2 years. Everybody just needs to stay patient. He will sign and if he does not sign that, he will have to play for the tender.

got $27 million guaranteed which also takes into account

A. He was grossly overpaid
B. He was a free agent

For Cruz to be offered $21 million with the Giants holding all leverage here, I hope he doesn't overplay his hand and become super greedy.

This looks like a very fair deal compared to more reasonable contracts on the market.

Jennings: $18 million guaranteed
Harvin $25.5 million guaranteed
Bowe: $26 million guaranteed
Amendola: $10 million guaranteed
Welker $ 10 million guaranteed

If that is really what the Giants are offering, and I doubt that, this is his last year with the Giants if he doesn't get signed away this year. I think at least 9 mil per with 20/25 guaranteed is the number he can demand.

Quote:

20/25 guaranteed

Again, that is the only # that matters. The Giants, according to this, are offering 21 guaranteed, which is what you're saying he can ask for. So why would that not get it done?

The money per means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the NFL.

I think Tom Condon will advise against that ... strongly.

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at the tender this year. This risk is all on his side. He won't get 9 or 10 million. Read the papers. The market is 5-7 million.

There's two weeks and change left to his RFA offer sheet window, we've been and will continue to hear leaks like this until the end.

Then, it's up to VC to sign the extension or play under the tender and up the ante.

"with the injuries in the NFL, you offer me guaranteed money like that, sign me up."

Quote:

I'm predicting.... BillKo : 9:41 am an extension somewhere around midseason. Cruz plays for the tender in 2013.

If he plays for the tender, the Giants are pulling that offer off the table, and rightfully so.

If he's in a position to negotiate mid-season, that likely means he's healthy and having another Cruz like season. At that point, how much cheaper are they going to get him than if he hits FA? Plus, we have the franchise tag in our back pocket for 2014 after 2013 is over.

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I've actually nailed this one wrt the guaranteed portion of the deal.

Cruz would be CRAZY not to take that deal if he doesn't get an offer sheet. Crazy.

he's one car accident, random medical diagnosis, or slip in the shower away, from having $0 guaranteed

It still doesn't matter until the 19th. Nothing, including an unexpected offer from another team, is going to happen before the final hours.

You're wrong about that for a player Cruz's age. He will play out a 5 year contract as he is 27. The per year is a factor as well. It's not like he'29 with only 3 years of quality play left.

...

That someone who comes off as being so humble off the field would be so greedy. Is it Cruz who wants more money or is it his agent trying to milk out as much as possible? It kind of makes me wonder who's calling the shots here.

being offered a fair contract. As JonC alludes to, although he is not completely a product of the system, the system and the QB have helped him. He may not be the same player in a different offense.

If he doesn't want what the Giants are offering him, use him for one more season and then say good-bye.

was made before or after the agent change.

Mike Wallace money.

This is why I strongly expect him to sign the tender in late April, play out the year (talking some bullshit about not negotiating during the season because he wants to be focused on football) and test the market again next year.

Then expect him to play "careful" all year.

This greed is all Cruz.

anything that happens between now and when he signs can affect his potential earnings

Chad Jones career, for one, ended pretty abruptly due to an off the field injury

it's not a particularly good sign. Because that's certainly a fair offer.

Don't see how 7mil per is fair given what top WRs are getting.

Because I'm sure many of you don't do everything you can to maximize your earnings.

Cruz playing "careful" all year.

I agree but the Giants still need to be nearer market price than 7 per. Would you leave 10/15mil on the table if you we're Cruz?

see: Umenyiora, Osi.

$21 million is more than I had thought we were offering, so that's encouraging. Cruz has more leverage than people want to believe (impending UFA of him + Nicks with one franchise tag (an $11 million cap hit) to go around reduces the team's bargaining strength).

I blame the Seattle Seahawks for all this, imo.

Cruz is a very good player, but is he a game-changer? I'm not convinced of that.

He would do very well in certain schemes but he may not put up the same numbers in a different scheme.

Would the Giants be hurt if they lost him? You bet. But they have have 52 other players to pay.

I know this is a business and the Giants fully understand that, they're run by smart people who i'm sure rarely let emotion get in the way of conducting their business. However, does anyone else think the Giants have to be at least slightly miffed by this?

That's alot of guaranteed money for his position.

based on Brandon Walsh's list. Harvin, Bowe, and Wallace are the only really comparable guys there, and they've all reported higher guarantee totals. (Jennings and Welker are significantly older than Cruz, and Amendola has never put in a season half as good as what Victor did in 2011 and 2012.)

That said, "guaranteed" totals are not always a 1:1 comparison. The actual wording of the guarantee matters rather a lot-- sometimes the guarantees are only for injury (which means that the player can be cut for simple underperformance), and sometimes it includes pseudo-guarantees like option bonuses.

And it isn't just about the guarantees, as some of you guys are saying. All the numbers matter. Particularly for a player as young as Victor, who has a stronger likelihood than most of playing out the entirety of a long-term contract. If a young player focuses too much on the up-front bonus, they end up in an Osi situation, playing out the late years of a long-term contract for a less-than-premium salary. (Also, with regard to the effect on the team's salary cap, it's the total salary/bonus payments to the player that matter.)

Couldn't agee more. I trust the Giants brain trust here but just don't think 7 per will get it done. Just being realistic.

19 TDs in two seasons, something like 8 or 9 TDs longer than 60 yards.....seems like a game changer to me.

Cruz never had a nice big rookie deal like Harvin and Bowe. This is his first, and maybe only, shot at a bigtime contract.

receiver, not a WR in the sense of Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald or even Hakeem Nicks. Not to say he doesn't play WR, but his big plays come from the slot.
$21 mill is guaranteed - that is fair money. He might be able to get $23/24 mill, but remember the Giants set X amount per player and that is all they will play. If Victor or Tom Condon want more that that slot, they won't get it.
He will probably sign for between the $21 mill on the table and $23 mill. Guess he will wait out the period until April 19 to see if anything comes in, then sign.

years ago without Cruz's game breaking plays.

Strange comment.

that Cruz isn't taking the "NYC endorsements" angle all that seriously here. Maybe we can finally put that one to rest.

How in the world can you look at Cruz's impact the past two seasons and consider him not a game changer?

Cruz's productivity suffered with Nicks being a shadow of himself. His big plays were way down.

Don't get me wrong, I think he is a tremendous player (remember, I'm the one who got laughed at on BBI when I said he was the most impressive offensive rookie the Giants have had since Shockey). But I feel the Giants' scheme puts him in tremendous position to succeed. Just like it did with Steve Smith.

Those are game changers. He is a nice slot receiver. The Giants are being more than fair to him. Without Eli, he isn't in a chunky soup commercial.

totally agree. But Cruz had a very good year last year, but not the same type of year he had in 2011. He did have a lot of drops. And there were games where he was very much kept under wraps.

Not Dierdorf. That meathead Greg Buttle.

There are a lot of games where he doesnt show up or is shut down. 2 catches for 40 yards.

Cruz vs Redskins - gamechanger

Cruz vs Seahawks - gamechanger

Cruz vs Eagles - gamechanger

Cruz should also realize that he could be franchised in 2014, meaning while he gets paid handsomely that year, the risk of injury and only collecting that year (versus guaranteed money exceeding that with the current offer).

Cruz might not be a FA completely until 2015....that's a long time away esp when you consider the injury factor/performance.

I think he'd be smart to take the offer on the table.

Well no shit, he's not one of the two best in the game. Not quite sure what that's supposed to prove, but whatever.

you have to keep in mind is the domino effect here. If you give Cruz $9 million, Nicks is probably gone. Or they keep Nicks and JPP is probably gone.

Who is easier to replace needs to be part of the evaluation.

than who is?

He'll sign. He'd be crazy to play on the tender. One slip on a slick field during OTAs and he's Terrell Thomased.

right, but I think he was kept under wraps because teams were not going to let him beat them and were able to give him a lot of attention with Nicks was dinged and Manningham gone.

He's not Megatron able to beat the defense over the top despite being the focal point. But if you pair him with another reasonable threat, he's going to continue to make a lot of big plays. Even last year, he won the Skins game for us with that bomb at the end.

for 5, maybe 6 years(most likely 5) imo

I didn't expect Cruz to have the same production this past year as he did in 11. Even if Nicks was healthy I didn't expect the stats he put up in 11.

could've sworn it was Dierdorf....

now that you say it, it rings true

Agree. But you qualified it with "if you pair him"

I'm ready to give $7 million a year to an outstanding (maybe the best) complimentary WR in the NFL right now, but $9 million?

I'll tell you what makes me nervous too. He seemed to get rattled some after the Pittsburgh shot. That bears watching.

excellent points.

I also think the Giants want to see JPP come on this year.

While we can all agree the man is a talent, there have been players like him who flash, but never realize their potential. I'm not saying JPP is this, but you never know.

Performances of JPP, Nicks (staying healthy), and Cruz (esp if not signed) will tell a lot about what direction the Giants go.

thats ridiculous. Take a look at game logs for WR's like Fitzgerald and Megatron and you see the same thing.

Some of Fitzgeralds performances last year.

1 catch 11 yards
1 catch 4 yards
3 catches 32 yards
1 catch 22 yards
1 catch 2 yards

How about Calvin Johnson?

He was on another planet last season but even he had a couple games where he only caught 3 balls for about 30 yards. And he's had worse performances throughout his career.

All receivers have games like that. All of them.

guaranteed over 5 years I'm okay with NYG letting him walk.

people think I'm overstating this too, but I honestly don't think so in the case of Cruz.

Cruz has a unique popularity in the NFL based on his personality and his black-hispanic ethnic background. He is currently playing in the #1 media market in the world.

How much money will he lose if he leaves New York? Some think he won't. I happen to think he could lose a ton.

Plus, being in New York also sets up better for after his career. He could become what Tiki should have become off the field.

Would you trade Cruz for Fitzgerald or Johnson?

I would.

That is the point to those who want to compare his guarantee money to top WRs in the NFL. He is probably the top slot receiver.
He deserves to get paid as the top slot man, not top WR I would suppose.

is for him to sign a 2 or 3-year deal which will give him much more financial security (maybe $10 M guaranteed), and yet allow him to go on the open market as a "true" free agent when he is still young enough to get another big contract.

This seems like the best solution for both sides. If you're him, you don't want to accept the 1-year tender, and you don't want to be tied up for 5 years at what you consider a below-market rate contract. Punting the whole thing down the road for a few years, when the cap rate might be higher, might be the best solution.

But I'd be willing to lose Nicks to keep Cruz. Nicks can't stay healthy, and if Randle becomes the player they expect him to be he can fill Nicks' spot. There's no way Jernigan could even be a pale shadow of Cruz.

with the idea that a long shot to even make a roster 2 years ago, attempting to capitalize on unexpected success, can be considered greedy.

This might be his only window at a big contract, and in the NFL it is all about timing.

BTW, Cruz lost the Seahawks game. He admitted to running a poor route on the game-winning INT that he tipped up into the air.

Again, not picking on Cruz, but just clarifying that was a bad example.

is definitely a game changer, but a game changer we can't afford to pay more than $7M a year. The Giants are doing what they always do, namely assigning a value to a player. If that player can get more, then they let him walk. With Cruz, there may be a little wiggle room, but not much.

The Giants will let him play on his tender this season, and then let him leave if necessary. I doubt they franchise him next year. It would just be too expensive, especially given all the other players they have to resign. They would also still have Nicks, Randle, JJ, and Murphy.

I think Cruz is making a mistake by not taking the offer. Nobody is going to sign him this season because they would have to give up a first round pick. His value is also less than somebody like Wallace because he is seen as a slot receiver. He could easily get hurt, see Smith, Steve, and will lose endorsement opportunities by not being in NY.

That makes no fucking sense. If guaranteed money is the only thing that matters then why didn't Mike Wallace just make 30 million over 5 years and just have it all guaranteed? He doesn't because he knows he can get a lot of that extra 35 million that isn't guaranteed.

If Nicks can't stay healthy, then obviously that is the smarter choice.

But I think the Giants are obviously trying to keep both first. Let's see how this plays out.

You guys are on crack if you think he is in their class.

The Giants need to stick to their guns on this one. I'd let him play for the 2.8 mil if he doesn't want the contract they are offering. I agree with all of Eric's "concerns" about giving Cruz too much $$.

I agree 100%. Cruz was getting punished heavily over the middle last year, and it seemed to me at times his drops were due to him trying to get in position to take a hit that might not have been coming. I'm not saying alligator arms all the time, but there were times that it happened. It indeed bears watching. He will continue to be punished in the middle, especially if the outside receivers are no more a factor than they were last season.

what the Giants are currently offering and let's not forget, Cruz signing his tender and then playing out the year in order to become a FA is no guarantee. The Giants could franchise him next year and the year after that.

For those arguing that Wallace got $27M guaranteed...again Wallace is a guy on the outside...big, big difference. Plus I truly believe there is the issue of where he wants to play and his legacy in this area in terms of living here, being a local hero and earning a lot in off field endorsements.

Which is why I say Cruz, who seems to be concerned about his image and legacy in the NY/NJ area, has to be smart about what he wants out of all this. To me, making a reasonable, comparable salary and earning money off the field while maintaining his local image would be very important to him.

I think this gets done and hopefully at the right price. Cruz has to realize how he benefits, as Eric pointed out, from the Giants' offense and Nicks being there. What if Randle comes on this year...the beneficiary of all this will once again be Cruz as teams will not be able to double cover him. There were many games this past year where Cruz was invisible. I want Cruz back but not at any cost.

the Cruz is no Fitzgerald or Johnson comments are ground-breaking. So, Cruz isn't the in the top 2 WRs in the league? No kidding. Guess what? Neither is Nicks.

Game before the tynes miss. He also made just as large a difference as nicks against Tampa. Big day against New Orleans. Also at Washington despite the L. And I needn't remind about the ineffective or not suited up nicks at year's end.

The devaluing of Cruz this year because he didn't match 2011's production is pretty hilarious at this point.

Eric, the Seattle game where he was also responsible for huge plays that kept us in it? He's an accountable guy, you're nitpicking

thing Cruz needs to keep in mind in terms of playing for a contract...if Nicks stays healthy, you have Randle maturing into a much bigger role and a new H-Back/TE who is coming off an 80-catch season. They obviously want to take a look at guys like Adrien Robinson, and Murphy and Jernigan too.

So even if he has a "great" season in 2013, his catches may be down.

who knows what they will do with Wilson as a receiver.

As an aside, LTS is right. The devaluation of Cruz here is hilarious.

Nicks. We drafted well to create a strong passing offense...that's what's going to carry us. If tough financial decisions have to be made, I'd make them in other areas.

is that Randle makes Nicks more replaceable than JJ makes Cruz.

but I'm waiting to see how Hakeem holds up this year + how Randle performs.

We may not need to invest a lot in nicks if Randle lives up to the billing.

and that is all he will pay. There might be some wiggle left on the guarantee money, but I doubt there is much.

I tend to agree I'd rather have Cruz over Nicks if they could only keep one because I think Randle will be able to play as well as Nicks, but Randle is not likely to be an effective slot receiver.

Cruz for 2 more years at basically $7m per when you consider the RFA tender this year and a possible franchise tag next year.

He might walk at that point, but we'd have him this year and next, and it'd help keep Nicks and JPP around. I'll take that over forking over more for Cruz at this point.

and Nicks is a UFA who needs to be re-signed.

The two years, $13 million angle doesn't seem all that strong to me.

If this was the first offer or start of negotiations, I could understand your sentiment that he isn't greedy but only maximizing his worth. But, this is after months of negotiations, switching agents seemingly to get a deal done, etc. This is not the first offer and is a more than reasonable offer. At this point, it reeks of nothing more than greed.

but I don't think you need to devalue Cruz as a player to justify it.

Let's not forget who this tidbit is coming from. Papa is a company guy. Cruz is very conscious of his good guy image and Cruz won't want this sitting out there for long as he knows that like some have already said... That's a ton of guaranteed dough.

The front office is getting tired of playing this game. They gave Papa the info that will likely be the nudge to get the pen to meet the paper.

As far as the rest go, JJ simply isn't very good. Louis Murphy is what he is - a very fast guy with lousy hands. Good depth signing as the #4 WR but no threat to replace Cruz. Myers? Since the Giants under Coughlin have never really featured the TE as a major part of the offense, I doubt they start now with a safety-valve guy who has no big-play abilities.

franchise tag. There's no way that the Giants can take a cap hit of over $10M next year for Cruz

that Cruz has any edge in negotiations, is rather naive about how the RFA designation plays out

What radar just said.

I don't disagree at all with the way the giants are playing this out. Same with Cruz (after firing the first agent). Both parties have played this just fine and I expect a resolution at 8 per when we get to the tender deadline.

I am tending to agree with you. I wouldn't cut bait with Cruz in the hopes of keeping Nicks. When healthy, nicks is not only the better WR, but I think one of the top ten in the league. The problem is that big "if" in there. he hasn't stayed healthy for one season. Ideally, we can keep both. But, that would be a lot of money locked in at WR against the cap. How the Hell will they contiinue to field a competitive team?

More than reasonable to who, you? The front office? Cruz thinks he could get more on the market, and I happen to agree.

a math perspective, guarantees are typically 45-55% of entire contracts. That being the case the $$ range is from 38.2M at 55% or 46.7M at 45%, mid-point 42M, so the offer is likely at least 5 years/8+ avg. per plus incentives: possible even a 6 yr at 7+ per and incentives. Both more or less equate at the 42M mid point.
The math may differ based on the Wallace deal mentioned, but I'm unaware of the terms.
I agree with the 'fine line'comment made, if the rumor is fact. Mara loves him,and is responsible for him on the roster in the first place, and with the Nicks/JPP/LJ coming up next year, all has to be considered by Condon and Cruz. I know the FO is patient, but if this is becoming a monster,and it seems like they are getting greedy/selfish, I can imagine a call to StLouis, and the Giants throwing in a 7th for the #16.Or to some hellhole barely a QB that thinks he's a #1 and needs to sell tickets.

with those comments. I don't see Cruz being devalued...I just think you have to put it into perspective and realize he benefits from the attention Nicks draws and Manningham also got as the third WR in 2011.

As for there not being other players in the league like Cruz, I disagree...there are many of them...Amendola (when healthy) compares favourably, certainly Welker does also. But, in many systems, Cruz's chances are taken by tight ends as in Atlanta. And I think he also benefits from our system...

I mean there is only so much money to go around. If you pay Cruz big money then you can't pay Nicks or others. I think a guy like Cruz is much easier to replace than a guy like Nicks. Nicks makes the tough catches regularly when he is healthy as he did in the playoffs in 2011. Now, I am not saying Nicks does not benefit from Cruz when both are healthy and on the field but overall Nicks is the key guy.

...would you prefer him to be signed away now and we get a first round comp?

Or, have him play one more year with us and then he leaves in which case we "may" get a third rounder from the NFL in the 2015 Draft?

Nicks is a bit tougher, but the result of taking all those hits are regular injuries. Nicks is better at catching the football, and is a nightmare to tackle. Cruz is tremendous when he is focused, but at times he has drops when he is concerned about taking a hit.

The Giants want to sign both, and they complement each other. To accomplish signing both, they each have to take less money. Neither will be poor, but there will be receivers making more than them.

It will be tough to watch as it plays out. I think Cruz plays for the tender, and makes the Giants up their offer by mid season. Nonetheless, paying Nicks will always be in the back of their minds.

others have mentioned... what incentive does he have to sign before the 16th? You guys wouldn't be trying for every last penny? I know I would.

then you're way off.

with regard to the Franchise logic. If the Giants' try to bring the "we can tag him" argument as leverage, I think Condon calls that bluff. If Cruz does play out 2013 on the Tender salary, he's going to want out. And I don't recall the Giants ever using the tag to keep a player who wanted out. (I know they tagged Jumbo Elliot way back in '93-ish, but I don't remember the circumstances.)

just lulz

Quote:

As for there not being other players in the league like Cruz, I disagree...there are many of them...Amendola (when healthy) compares favourably, certainly Welker does also. But, in many systems, Cruz's chances are taken by tight ends as in Atlanta. And I think he also benefits from our system...

You don't see Cruz being devalued but thats exactly what you just did. Wow.

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because NO ONE is going to sign him to an offer sheet..This coming season should he play for his tender, there's no guarantee he'll put up numbers(even if he escapes injury) similar to even his past year. Wilson might get more receptions, as might Myers. Nicks, should a miracle occur and he stays healthy, might also take away from VC's productivity..

No matter how one cuts it, he'd be foolish not to assure his lifetime security by igning this year. It's speculative of course, but those numbers bing reported are beyond fair for Cruz, imo

Quote:

Which is why I say Cruz, who seems to be concerned about his image and legacy in the NY/NJ area, has to be smart about what he wants out of all this. To me, making a reasonable, comparable salary and earning money off the field while maintaining his local image would be very important to him.

What does this mean?

This is a business. The team is trying the most out of him for the least amount of pay. If another team is willing to pay him what he wants either now or after 2013, good for him. He has to do what he feels is the best for him and his family. If that means an extra 3 or 4 million, that's on him.

Reasonable? Who determines that? You really think that if Cruz held out for more money or left them for more dollars elsewhere his image and legacy would be tarnished? You really believe that?

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and 8.8 ypc.

You're just being ridiculous now.

where injuries keep him out or hamper his play, Cruz may be the one who would get franchised next year. The franchise tag 'threat' is still in play this year because it won't play out until next year.

not trying to "devalue" Cruz. I just don't think he is as dominant as some think. He might just break my top 10 list of wide receivers in the NFL. But I don't think he is top 5.

the Giants have looked ahead (as they always do) and figured out the maximum number of dollars they can offer Cruz without losing their flexibility to retain Nicks and JPP as well.

In the TC era, 2 things have been the main reasons for success, the pass rush and Eli's passing game.

I think a reasonable offer has been made to Cruz. it's up to him if he wants a reasonable deal or a mega-deal. If he wants the latter, that's fine, it just won't be with the Giants.

can go ahead and do so, but there's no goddamned way David Wilson has more receptions than Cruz.

I said that Wilson and Myers may take throws away from Cruz, not that they'd catch more? Seriously?

when compared to what other WRs have received,Greg Jennings got 18M guaranteed as a UFA as an example.

play the system as long as he can? Call it greed if you want ( I don't)but his agent is trying to get what he can. Reeses and Mara know that. Condon knows they have a limit on what they will offer. Plus, there is no pressure on Cruz to sign today. And, he is absolutely a game changer.

Poor wording. I meant more catches for them and hence less for VC

they stray far from it. They are going to make every effort to keep Nicks next year (even if it means letting Cruz walk) b/c Nicks is the better player, the more complete player and does more for this offense. Nicks is prob top 5 when healthy. I agree with the Giants, I think its the right move, especially if Nicks stays healthy this year.

As written by you, that's exactly how it read.

Hell we could be Cowboy fans paying a CHOKE ARTIST $55 MIL guaranteed!

But if Myers is taking receptions away from Cruz, that's a bad thing for the Giants' offense. Myers is Chris Cooley redux, a guy that's good for catching dumpoffs and nothing else.

49ers making an offer???

The Giants and Cruz are both playing the game by the rules that have been set for them.

It may be Cruz's first payday, but that's not the Giants' fault. He might wait until the last minute to sign the tender, but that's not Cruz' fault. This is just how negotiations go in the NFL.

As for the franchise tag - I don't think the Giants are above using it, and they're certainly not above threatening it for negotiation purposes. The reality that Cruz faces is that he might be here for 2 years at an average of $7m per regardless of his desire, by virtue of his RFA status and the franchise tag feature of the NFL.

I also agree with Eric regarding Cruz's playmaking. He's definitely a top-10 guy, but last season proved he's not top-5. If one or two guys got overpaid, good for them, but those are exceptions not the norm.

If he is dreaming of a big time contract then its time to move on after next season.

1 player does not make a franchise. unless its a QB. and last I checked Cruz was not a QB.

I love him, love him in blue and he is a wonderful player asking/demanding huge money and thus over paid. At this point I would not mind a sign and trade deal. As I would hate for the Giants to commit huge amount of cap space to him.

I also think the celeb kind of life he is living is making him dream and might effect his level of play (dropes) and he is full of himself otherwise if indeed this is what the Giants are willing to pay him which is very good money for a #2 WR slot WR and he is saying no then F him.

at all to say $21 million guaranteed over 5 years is an extremely fair offer by the Giants..

Its a more then fair offer. If he takes it great, if not then Oh well. We have all the leverage here.

No question it is a risk.

However, if Cruz has 50 catches, 550 yards, and 6 TD's at the midway point and Nicks is struggling with his production because of injuries or othere reasons, the Giants will have to increase their offer. The leverage shifts completely to Cruz. Cruz may not be a top 5 receiver, but he is definitely in the top 10 and I don't think we want to risk a Giant offense with Eli throwing to Randle, Louis Murphy and Jerrel Jernigan. I say that as a believer in all three of those players.

If Nicks plays 8 games at the 2010-11 production level, Cruz will have to sign the existing offer or leave.

Currently, the Giants have the advantage, that could change.

And there always is the chance someone could offer him more while he waits, even if the doesn't appear likely at this point.

If that's the case then the Giants are not lowballing him at all.

Just my assumption.

The benefit is so he doesn't become a javon walker. The Pack offered him a good deal and he wouldn't make a deal, played his last year out, got hurt, and got nothing. Similiar to our Steve Smith. Not to mention, it allows JR to finalize how to deal with finances.

I agree, and that's how I look at it. I would hate to see Cruz leaves, but if he does, then we find the next guy to plug into the system. I am not worried about that.

Cruz is likely to play all 5 years.

I don't see him being worth more than 7-8 million per year.

Before Nicks and Cruz, you have to go back to Homer Jones before you had a Giant WR that sniffed the Pro Bowl. 40 years of blah, and they finally get 2 WR's that are Pro Bowl caliber and you are ready to let one walk and plug the next guy in without skipping a beat?

This is possibly, maybe even likely, Cruz's only shot at a big-money deal. The assertion that he's being overly greedy is laughable.

Larry Fitzgerald... $50 million guaranteed
Calvin Johnson... $60 million guaranteed

Why are these guys' names coming up in a discussion about Victor Cruz and his contract negotiations?

Steve Smith made the Pro Bowl in 2010 (for the 2009 season).

If he does something with the Giants right now...it will be a below market deal. If he rolls the dice and waits...he risks injury or a bad season.

The Giants are best to offer Cruz a below market deal which allows them to sign Nicks next year if they want to. The Giants should not get tied in to HUGE dollars at one position. It hurts the rest of the team.

My guess is that Cruz will will accept the Giants offer as the risk of not doing so is just too great.

.

Because somehow there are guys who think that comparing Cruz negatively to the two best receivers in football strengthens their argument that he's greedy. Makes no sense, but there you go.

is a potent weapon, but he is a complimentary one. Nicks is the game changer. If a choice has to be made, it has to be Nicks.Cruz cannot be Nicks, he is not that kind of player. He can't step into that role as we all saw this year.

I forgot about him. I think Smith before his knee was highly skilled as I do think of Cruz. I

he plays for the Tender, he is leaving 5 million on the table this season. That would mean that he would have to feel that he could more than make up for that 5 million as a UFA next year in Guaranteed money. That will not happen. He will sign, he just has no insentive to sign until he HAS to which is April 19.

Maybe he completely agrees with the Guaranteed money but wants more in incentives or per year or more years etc. etc.. We have no idea what is holding this up. Everybody needs to be patient and let the process play itself out.

At this point, calling him greedy for trying to get what he can is pretty ignorant of the way this business works. And to everybody involved other than fans, it is a business first.

The Giant Wr's before Steve Smith, Nicks and Cruz were functional at best

misreading the market for WRs of his caliber and type. It's $5-7 million market. That Seattle was dumb enough to overpay Harvin for potential when all he has lead the league at is migraines is their problem. It doesn't change what the sane world sees.

did you miss Plax and Toomer? WR has been a strength of the team for years now.

This QB and System won with and without Nicks/Cruz. As long as Eli has protection, the system remains bigger than the players.

is that Smith and Cruz are totally different Wrs. One moved the chains, and fell down after getting the 1st down. The other looks to make big plays and aims for the end zone, after the catch. Both made the pro bowl that were fan favorites. Obviously, Cruz being more of a fan favorite now.

If anything, that's the highlight of our system. The other negative elements are a pain in the ass, but this part is an asset of our system.

.

was a level below Nicks & Cruz. Great Giant, no doubt, but not a great WR, a very good one indeed. Plax was a FA, you want to go that rout to replace Cruz it's going to cost, just like Plax did

You are absolutely right. But prob teams like the Lions, Dolphins, Vikings, Browns, Jets etc. Teams that know how to win super bowls only break back for the QB. Teams looking to make a big splash think differently.

While I think the fade of the offensive line was responsible for the rough second half in 2008, our WR's were not very good during that time. Smith had numerous drops, Hixon disappeared, and Toomer began to look old. WR was a consensus first round choice in the 2009 draft for that reason.

The Giants have made Cruz a fair offer, but I understand and don't blame him for trying to get more money. Steve Smith in 2010 is a cautionary tale for him, but the second half of 2008 should worry the Giants.

He may not be a top 5 receiver, but Cruz will not be easily replaced.

Plax was pretty cheap consudering.

Don't give a fuck about Pro Bowls, only Super Bowls, when you wrap your brain around that, let us know.

I think you misread my post. I wasn't suggesting he doesn't sign the deal at all.

It's the RFA year ($3M) plus 4 years at $8M per year. It protects him from injury this year (ask Steve Smith how fast that $21 Million in guaranteed money can disappear). If he thinks the Giants are going to blink, he hasn't been paying attention.

Are the same guys that should be giving Mike Wallace a call while he's sippin' Mango Margaritas in Miami.

To replace Cruz to win either. We had a fucking team that won 2 superbowls without any good wideouts. There are many ways to do things, 1 thing that will surely RUIN a team is to overpay a player, Cruz was offered what the Giants are willing to pay, if he chooses he can leave, we will win without him. Replacing cruz may be very difficult, but with the money we save on Cruz there is a lot of talent we can add. You never, bid against yourself, never, and the Giants will not do that this year either with cruz, nor should they.

drinking early today?

You bringing up the 86 and 90 Giants and comparing them to the 2013 Giants? have you seen the 2012 Defense compared to the 86 unit

Giants will not pay more than their internal valuation for a player.

@TeamVic
Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. Now back to #CruzDayTuesday

he posted a similar tweet a few weeks ago I seem to remember, what it means, only he knows the

a Cruz and Nicks game." - Bill Belichick

Since we are not privy to the value the team puts on each player, how do we know that they have not signed players above their internal number?

than a "nice slot WR".

This guy is one of the best at his position. There are about 4 truly elite WRs. Cruz is not there but he's in the next group. And he's a hell of a lot better than Wallace and Bowe.

It isn't about Eli or the NYG passing system either. He can get open on anybody and then make plays after the catch. His game will work on any team, any system, and any QB.

The guy has not been paid. He's looking to maximize the cash on this contract. How can you blame him? This contract may be all he gets. He worked his ass off and deserves a big deal.

If they are offering $21 mill guaranteed then they are probably pretty close. I'd bet on Cruz signing very soon with the Giants.

he is a fcking UFA. HE IS NOT WAKE THE FCK UP. so whining that he isnt getting offered enough money is just stupid. he is a RFA. he can play for 2mio this year and risk snapping his leg in half or he can lock in 7mio+ this year and 20+ guaranteed.
whatever he chooses... is fine by me, but as an RFA, he doesnt "deserve" a penny more. if he were a UFA its a totally different story.

Well said

How many WR's make the play Cruz made against the Jets? Not too many

Percy Harvin was a year away from free agency, signed $12 million annually, $25 million guaranteed.

the IRS takes their lousy share up front. So, it

isn'tt as big as it seems.

its not our fault the seahawks dont pay their qb 20mio a year and have that luxury. the giants dont. and seatlle and SF are doing an arms race... and i think seattle was dumb for paying him that.
I want to keep cruz, and we will... but offering a guy money that you dont have just doesnt make sense. he has a lot to lose.

and Eli. So if Cruz wants to bounce. The hardest part is to find the right WR to be productive in the slot and at Z. That's actually one position I am not worried about.

Harvin wore out his welcome and couldn't be traded fast enough..

VC has been a model citizen representing his franchise very admirably..

I have to argee with Eric's comment on Cruz.

He is a better than average slot guy, but not a number one that can carry a team.

Cruz cannot be a total fool after recent history has shown us in Smith and Tiki missing out on NY dollar by taking the wrong route.

Not many at all.

I think the Harvin comp is what the Cruz team is looking at and using in negotiations. If they are I'd call it a smart move and not a greedy one.

Giants may have to bump it up (and they should) and keep Cruz. He gets a few more million guaranteed and the Giants get a top 5-12 WR in his PRIME for several more years.

it is Eli. If Carr was QBing ...........

Sure, but we're the ones who have to deal with the fallout.

It's not our fault Baltimore gave an above-average QB $20.1 million per year, 5 months after New Orleans gave a great QB $20 million. It's no one's fault but Baltimore's. But now every team has to deal with their franchise QB saying "that's the market, match it bitch".

Only if there were 5 teams in the NFL.

He has handled this entire process with class. He was vastly underpaid last season and didn't say a peep.

This year, he is well within his rights to pursue opportunities in restricted free agency. There is a bid and ask. The rest is just negotiation. If anything the Giants have been the ones leaking info in this situation and we have no heard a word from the Cruz camp - further proof that this dude is all class.
Labeling him "greedy" is just ridiculous.

For my part, I do think the Giants offer feels about right for the market and I think Victor will eventually come around to that understanding as well. But it is a complicated situation given the flat near term cap until the next TV deal.

there is a lot of space between being a #1 that can carry a team and a better than average slot guy.

Some of you really need to watch his highlights from the past two years.

is us having cruz this year and then being able to decide on cruz/nicks next year after seeing randle and JJ play for real... then im 100% ok with that. we get another year of cruz and everyone has to prove their worth.

agreed. Because they lost Steve Smith and Cruz steeped in, the assumption is the same thing will happen if Cruz leaves is a strecth

They'll come to a compromise. Condon is far from a sleazebucket, hard negotiator or not..

If we give in to an increased guarantee, then they'll give in to an additional year or two. Probably something along those lines

.

.

Again, VC will be a Giant, most likely for a very long time.

They'll come to a compromise. Condon is far from a sleazebucket, hard negotiator or not..

If we give in to an increased guarantee, then they'll give in to an additional year or two. Probably something along those lines

that is not the point...
the point it there is NOTHING wrong with having cruz this year for 2mio and playing his ass off for his money along with nicks doing the same. If randle can take over for nicks like everyone claims then that will show... and if not... it will also...
the idea that you need to meet the players demands who is a RFA is just stupid. he can take financial security for life, or play another year and get paid more but risk injury.

assuming no serious injury or similar change in his prospects, he gets $9.5M/year, at the very least.

The idea that his market value would be in the $7-8M range is laughable. The $8M range is filled with guys like Pierre Garcon, Santonio Holmes, and Sidney Rice. DeSean freaking Jackson signed for 5 years and $47M. Greg Jennings has a lot more age and injury concerns, and his is in a similar range as DeSean's. Cruz is more valuable than any of those guys.

Of course, Victor can be expected to take some sort of discount to avoid the tender salary for 2013. But I doubt that approaches $7M/season-- a 26% reduction from the low end of his likely open market value.

I think the parameters of a deal are in place.They are probably at the fine points stage IMO

Fully agree. Cruz will sign and be happy, the Giants and Condon will look good, and BBI will start focusing on Nicks.

the unlikely happens and another team puts in a late minute bid.

Cruz either signs the deal on the table as an RFA or he plays under the tender and re-negotiates in the fall from a stronger position. Either way, the Giants know that his value (again, barring a late bid from another team) is $2.83m this year and if they choose to use it, about $11m under the franchise tag next year. They aren't going to negotiate against themselves.

guy flying under the radar scope is Linval Joseph. He's a UFA after this year. They got to re-sign him too.

so LinJo never becomes sn RFA?

I do think that there can be, as BB'56 suggested, some "face saving" money added to the current offer on the table if it brings Cruz in, but it's not going to be substantially more than what the team is already offering. They can't blow up the cap with Nicks, JPP, LinJo coming down the pike next year.

If the offer really is 5 years 35 million...with 21 million guaranteed...what is the effect on the cap...if we go with same offer and increase the guaranteed amount to 27 million...and add performance incentives?

that they have a plan in place that if they had to go "over budget" to get Cruz done that they would have restructures and or cuts that they could make

It is possible that they could restructure someone if a team were to come in with a large 11th hour offer, but do you honestly believe that Reese will blink in the face of a huge contract on the table? I think the front office has a plan and it's either their way or the highway.

I really wasn't too impressed with his play last season.

mid sesason 1 game, his play went downhill.
the first part of season he was excellent, 2nd half he was on roller skates.
this is a big year for him. if we see the first half of the year guy and more, he would warrant $ more then keeping both WR imo.

You done did it now.

Draft pick contracts all seem to be four years now. They don't hit RFA. Rookie free agents yes.

and not taking even money when the dealer is showing an Ace

He has been a great player for the Giants. I graduated college with him as well. The fact of the matter is that he is a slot receiver. The market has been set for slot receivers with Amendola and Welker at 6 million per year. The giants are offering 7 and he is balking at that?

He has put up big numbers but in this system the slot receiver does that. See Steve Smith. Where is he now? Eli Manning makes his receivers better than they are. Period. Cruz will play for the tender this year then get a monster contract from Jacksonville and he will fall off the face of the earth.

what negotiations are all about. Who knows WHEN his will get done, but it most certainly will. We as humans love neat little packages tied up with string(these are a few of my....), so that we can "worry" about the next thing consuming us(i.e. Nicks, Joseph, then of course JPP)..

They are both doing this right..

if Cruz and his agent came back with a counter proposal. I'd say something like 5yr 40million dollars with 23million guaranteed would get it done

Well said. It is what I keep repeating: Without an offer from another team, Cruz' value to the Giants this year is about $7m per year. Next year, with the possible franchise tag, Cruz' value increases that much more. It's a game of chicken and right now Victor is playing for more money and who in the world can blame him?? I surely don't!

Trade him and get a draft pick. Ill go with Nicks and Randle and use the pick on the OL unless there is a rule you can't trade someone after they sign their tender because he will have to sign it.

I'd rate Victor Cruz as no lower than the third most important Giant entering 2013.

Eli, Nicks, Cruz. This is, by miles, the strongest area on the team and the one most likely to take it to another title. If it means letting JPP walk when it's his time, I think those three guys absolutely must be kept together...all the moreso now with Randle's emergence.

bceagle said it above...this is a Cruz and Nicks game. If we're making the other coach let us go to Randle, that is a matchup we are likely to win.

Everything revolves around Eli on this team. Everything.

not an arbitration. There is none of the nastiness that arbitration produces. Both sides take the emotion out of it and work it out. I believe they are close

You make a strong point but I think you also have to take into consideration the system that the Giants have used on the offensive side of the ball, particularly with personnel decisions. Talented guys have come and gone here probably alot more than on other teams. Why? Because the Giants place a monetary value on their guys which they see as fair and they do not exceed that number in negotiations. Cruz has certainly proven to be a guy you make your BEST offer to. But what reason do the Giants have to make any exception for Cruz? There is no arguing that this offense has sustained many losses in the past, and largely in part to Eli, the offense has remained highly productive.

I do not feel comfortable getting into a bidding war with Victor Cruz. Not with guys like Nicks and JPP coming up next year. I'm pretty sure the Giants feel the same way and I'm glad about that.

Best case scenario, I think they all get paid reasonable deals and remain in Blue.

We're not trying to just get by on offense because of Eli...we're trying to get better. We're not doing that if Cruz walks...that hurts everyone on offense.

If it comes down to JPP or Cruz, I keep Cruz. He'll cost less and is more important to the team because his performance directly impacts the performance of our best player.

Spreading our resources out is not the way to a title.

How do we know if the Giants go above the number they feel a player is worth if they never give out the number? Because Reese says so? It sounds nice, but is it factual? I don't know
and neither do you

he let Steve Smith go, would have let Bradshaw go last summer had somebody offered AB more. JR has a track record. I believe he has a number and in that way keeps from being to deep into the cap.

Damaged Goods

was willing to pay. Kevin Boss wasn't injured at the time. Susceptible to concussions yes.

I believe he has an amount that is a cut off point for every player, injured, healthy, RFA, UFA whatever. The number we see fom Cruz and that was hinted at by Mara and Tisch may not be that number yet, but probably not too far away.

We have won two Superbowls in 5 years with two entirely different sets of receivers. JPP is an absolute monster who can change a game himself.

Look at what receivers have done after leaving the Giants and Eli Manning. It is not even close to the production they put up on this team.

Cruz is a great talent but lets not forget who is throwing him the football. There is no reason to get into a bidding war and giving him a monster contract. Give Nicks the offer and it is next man up.

Eli is certainly the way to another championship, but I put the pass rush right there as reason #1A.

In 2011 JPP put up a defensive season we hadnt seen since Strahan in 2001. I'm not too worried about alittle bit of an off year this year.

Eli, Nicks, Cruz and JPP are the 4 best players on this team and its foundation. If one of those guys wants to take himself out of the equation b/c of his contract demands, fine, but I don't think the Giants can or will pay one guy so much that it jeopardizes their chances to retain the others.

yeah I would agree being that he had a few

They are offering fair money. Its not their fault other teams are prudent and throw crazy money out there. If they offer a very fair deal and Cruz plays hardball. He's gotta go kick rocks. The team won championships before him and will after he is gone.

more then locking up 20m in 2 WR.
give us a RT and ill show u a consistent offense instead of boom bust.
WR are the most important when u cant get a first down on 3rd and 1.

I'm arguing that we dont know if the Giants go above the number they place on a player. I got to believe it is no where near a cut off point, that would be boxing themselves in

over 6 yrs total 43.5 million

Quote:

Spreading our resources out is not the way to a title.

Except they've won two titles since '08 doing it that way..

I completely agree. If Cruz wants to hit the open market and play with Blaine Gabbert or John Skelton making 13 million dollars a year he can.

We have Nicks, JPP and also Eli Manning on the horizon which people seem to be forgetting. Tony Romo just got 55 million guaranteed. I cannot even imagine what Eli will command in his next deal.

We cannot be hamstrung cap wise by Victor Cruz. If he is not here the next slot receiver will catch 85 passes in this system.

I would disagree. This team has been about the QB and DL since 2007. We won in 2011 in large part because Cruz came from nowhere. He was almost cut. Whether by design or by accident, the 2011 Giants won the title on the back of a strong passing game. That's indisputable.

What's your plan if/when he walks? Wait for the next Cruz to fall out of the sky? If he's demanding big money it's because he's rare. That means replacing him is going to be very difficult...and all the while Eli years will be ticking by.

I'm not looking to get rid of JPP...there are only bad choices here. But if it's one or the other, the defense sucked with JPP on it in 2011 and 2012. It can continue to suck without him.

with this system/coaching staff and this QB.

You can give them a stud RT, Calvin Johnson, whatever and it's not going to likely change. Based on almost a decade of evidence, there's almost certainly always going to be those 3 or so games a year where the passing game specifically totally shits the bed and they're probably not likely ever going to be a team that's going to win shoot-outs consistently even outside those games either. They're not going to be that Packers or Patriots offense that auto-locks the team into 10+ wins and a playoff spot -- it's just not likely in them, for whatever reason (Eli, Gilbride, the system... it doesn't matter which, as none of it is going to change).

That's why it's hard to prioritize keeping Cruz and Nicks over JPP, even if, in an abstract way, it makes sense to focus on your strengths first. The Giants need their defense to at least be representable or they're not going anywhere beyond mediocrity and it's hard to be representable when you let your only "stud" defender walk.

But to say it is mainly because of Cruz is just not true. He is a cog in the Giants system that is generated by Eli Manning.

Just wait until Martellus Bennett is cut next year after failing to put up numbers even close to what he did last year. Eli made him a rich man (for now).

The last minute touchdown by Cruz against the Skins this year was a great moment. One in which Eli Manning took a shot while throwing a perfect strike directly into Cruz's lap

then you invest and revamp the OL, not the WR's.

Draft a WR who would be a good fit for our system. We did it with Smith, and our scouts brought Cruz in. If there is anything good about our system, it's the WR position both players play, which is the slot and Z.

and I was a huge fan of Smith's.

If we draft a guy that fits our system we then have to wait for him to acclimate to the game just like we would with any other rookie.

We can keep asking Eli to carry guys and make them better than they are, or we can provide him with the best possible talent and let them all make each other better.

he is a fcking RFA!!!! stop being drama queens. its a win win for the giants. he signs a deal good for both or he plays another year hard and becomes a UFA where we must decide between a group of talented free agents on whom to keep.
investing 20m in WRs probably wont lead the giants very far unless they get lucky on some OL and DT in the near future

I agree. Two players were totally different, and yet were pro bowl players who were productive. I can go back to a move the chains type player again. I don't need another Cruz. I am not spoiled by his success than a Steve Smith simply won't do anymore.

In fact, the system is the same, and we draft or develop a WR to fit the slot and someone who can pay Z. When Smith left, I thought it would be hard to find someone who can master his position. We found Cruz who flashed, and then struggled, which led us to bring in Stokley. He got hurt, Cruz stepped in, and the rest was single season yards history.

I'd like to keep Cruz, but if he leaves, I am not worried. If anything shit usually works it self out. Tiki left, and we were fine. Strahan left and we were fine, Smith left, and we were fine. If Cruz leaves, I would be sad, but I'll get over it with the prospect of trying to fill the void again.

b/c I think this gets lost with the Cruz 99 yarder against the Jets and b/c of his somewhat disappointing season last year but, in my opinion, JPP was the 2nd biggest reason (after Eli Manning) this team won it all in 2011.

He was directly responsible for about 8 points (safety, turnover converted to FG, blocked FG) in the biggest game of that entire regular season. Nothing matters if the Giants don't win that game. After Eli, JPP is the man responsible.

How was Manningham's production in San Fran this year?

How did Burress do post Eli?

Kevin Boss and Steve Smith sure had great careers after leaving the Giants.

We won games in 2010 with Derek Hagan as the leading receiver.

Eli Manning makes his receivers better and makes this team go. It is pretty evident the Giants will not be able to keep both Nicks and Cruz. So be it, Randle will do just fine.

Cruz is just another guy and I thought he was special. You can get another Jet training camp cut and replace him.

Plaxico Burress "post-Eli" was 34 years old, freshly out of prison and hadn't played ball in three years. Kevin Boss was a modestly successful TE with or without Eli Manning. Steve Smith had a catastrophic knee injury.

Try again.

because Kevin Boss and Victor Cruz have similar production.

Holy Shit.

Cruz is just a tad different than guys like Boss and Smith. Also, while Plax was a GREAT Giant, you could see the warning signs in 2008 (before he shot himself), that he was starting to slow down alittle bit. Cruz is younger than Plax was during that year and had alot less injuries and miles on his legs. Cruz is 26/27 and just entering his prime. He still has his best years ahead of him.

but what the fuck, give credit where its due sometimes.

You are contradicting yourself - you say that QB and DL are vital, yet you aren't willing to spread resources amongst the two groups (ie, you said you would invest in Cruz over JPP). The passing attack was obviously very important to the title run, but the defense was pretty good at times as well. Without the defense (specifically JPP), they probably don't even make the playoffs - or did you forget JPP's performance against Dallas? He was responsible for what, 8 points that day? Not to mention that terrific stop on the dump pass which would have gone for a ton of yards otherwise.

Basically, you want to invest some 25-30% of the cap into three guys (Eli, Nicks and Cruz). If you do that, they will lose a ton of 41-35 type games

We know you hate the cap, but in this day and age you HAVE to spread resources around both sides of the ball. It is impossible to load on either one side of the ball or even one unit, without exposing the other units.

Also wanted to mention the fact that if I have to make a choice between Cruz and JPP, I'm choosing the latter

Don't get me wrong, I love Cruz and think he's great, but I can't help but wonder how much of his greatness is made by Eli than the other way around? I trust Eli to make the most out of his WR's, and if Cruz has to leave, then I believe him to make the most out of Randle (or whoever) to close the gap between what was lost in Cruz.

I would of posted Cruz and the DB's he faked out of their shoes

Not so sure about the 2012 JPP......

you mean would have?

;)

and then move on to the next deal (Nicks, JPP, or whoever)

And I want him to stay a Giant for the rest of his career. I don't blame him for trying to get as much money as possible. In his position, I'd do the same thing.

But at some point, the team has to draw the line on his contract. As Eric said, there are 52 other guys that have to get paid, too.

I hope that he and the Giants can reach an agreement that's mutually beneficial to both parties, but if they can't, well, that's life in today's NFL.

yes if I knew proper English :)

Quote:

We know you hate the cap, but in this day and age you HAVE to spread resources around both sides of the ball. It is impossible to load on either one side of the ball or even one unit, without exposing the other units.

So if a team makes a decision to disproportionately invest in one area, it should probably be the passing offense.

The other unit was already exposed. I recognize JPP's quality, and his 2011 season was excellent. But the defense in 2011 was abysmal despite his performance...25th in points allowed, 27th in yards. JPP's performance in Dallas was superb, I wouldn't try to take that away from him...but you point to one game where he contributed points in a win, and I can point to three games the Giants lost that year where they scored 24 or more points. So it goes both ways.

We have a strong passing game now. It's the backbone of the team. Weaken that to strengthen a weak area and IMO you end up with an overall weaker team.

it has to be taken as a criticism of Cruz to say the Giants shouldnt throw whatever money at him he wants. That is very irresponsible, and thankfully we pretty much already know that isnt happening because the Giants get it.

In a perfect world there would be no salary cap and the Giants wouldnt have to walk this tight rope, but that's not reality.

As great as he is, I'm not sure anyone can come up with evidence that Cruz is more important to this team's success than Nicks or JPP. I'm not sure then, why the Giants would financially prioritize him as such.

that Cruz, JPP & Nicks will all be signed. I believe they worked out how to get it done a year ago. They don't deal with what's in front of them, they short term AND long term plan.

JPP and Cruz it's not a straight comparison. JPP's contract is going to make Cruz's look like peanuts. Mario Williams got $50 million guaranteed...about what we'd expect for Nicks and Cruz COMBINED.

think pyaing 7 million a year for Cruz is actually too much. The guy is primarily a slot reciever on a team with a HOF QB. Eli can take another good slot guy and make Cruz very replaceable. When Nicks was out Cruz didn't stand nearly as well on his own.
Save the money for Nicks,develop Randle and groom another slot guy for next year.
The new TE makes a Cruz departure even less of a problem.

.

It's not just whether Cruz is more important...it's whether JPP is twice as important, because that's what he's going to cost.

They don't make the playoffs in '11 without JPP. And hopefully JPP bounces back this year to show why he is so indepensible.

I agree that the passing game is the backbone. But you invest the dollars that will be required for ELi, Nicks and Cruz, the defense will suck even harder than the '11 team. Look at the Lions - terffic passing game, but the rest of the team blows chunks.

Nevermind the defense - what about the OL? What good will having an excellent passing game if Eli is on his back the entire game? You devote that much money to the Big Three, there will be less $$ for the OL as well.

Again, I trust Eli - I'd hate to see Cruz go, but I trust him to make Randle the best he can be. He might not be ever Cruz, but he can help offset the loss and still have that unit as a strength...

You face the same problem, but much worse, if you let Cruz walk and sign JPP.

seeing that he is an RFA... what is the deal you want to offer cruz right now?

JPP has alot to prove this year before he approaches any big-time contract with the Giants or anyone else. The point still remains though, that the Giants can't take themselves out of the picture in terms of being able to retain him.

Again, I'm not that worried. I believe the Giants have this all worked out, know their numbers for each guy and have back-up plans in place for injury, over/under performance.

I believe Cruz, Nicks and JPP will be here long term.

I don't know what he's asking. And I have no complaint with the way the Giants are handling it. Apparently right now there is no reason to press the matter any more than they have. When that time comes, if he's looking for $10 million/year, I give it to him.

But JPP can have a ripple effect on the entire defense. If 2011 JPP returns, then he makes the secondary better because they don't have to cover as long, and the LB's better because more runs are stopped at the line, and since he would have to be double teamed there would be opporutunties for the other DL to look better as well.

Is that worth twice as much as Cruz? I dunno, I'm not a capologist...

Regardless, his departure will hurt the team. He has been very productive over two seasons. He will not be easily replaced. As with everything with Giant fans, this will be obvious after he is gone.

He will be a Giant in 2013, and I am excited about that.

That ripple effect didn't seem to be there when his play regressed.

If the Giants surmise that they can't keep all three, I agree that JPP has to be the one who goes. He'd get roughly the equivalent of a franchise QB, which no other position is worth to a team, no matter how great the player. Look at the Jets with Revis right now. How much better shape would they be in if they had dumped Revis when he bitched about his contract the first time around? They would've gotten multiple first round picks, and may have been in position to make a play for one of the great QBs in last year's draft. Or could've spread the Revis money around to fortify other areas. Now they're praying for one first rounder for him.

but the smart move will be trading JPP after another year or two (he's RFA in 2015, right?). He does well and he'll get us a huge haul, as Revis would have for the Jets prior to his injury.

and trade him right away ??

the size of planet Earth for Reese to do it, but I would completely understand if he did.

Contrary to popular belief Giants fans are not the smartest.

You guys dont know the number of years or the total amount.

Not sure what the rules are pertaining to Cruz.

has made me sicker than I currently am...my chest is tighter than it was before I started reading this information...sigh...

in with the same guaranteed money Williams got is also assuming alot at this point. Like I said earlier, JPP needs another season like 2011 to even be able to ask for that kind of money. Besides, we havent yet heard JPP talk about his own free agency. How do we know the Giants can't lock him up at a reasonable price the way they did with Tuck?

Does anyone know what the 2014 cap space is?

Unless something goes very wrong I can't see him not commanding that type of cash.

You don't have to be an @sshole.. I am not saying Kevin Boss or Steve Smith or Burress out of prison were comparable to Victor Cruz. However the proof is in the pudding. Steve Smith caught 107 passes in one year in this system. When Victor Cruz inevitably signs a 75 million dollar contract with some shit hole team, his production will not even be remotely close to what it is in this system with this Quarterback.

Victor Cruz is not even the best receiver on this team. My point is that Eli and this system inflate the numbers of the receivers, especially in the slot.

I would not be happy with the Giants giving Victor Cruz a monster deal at the expense of this team losing other very valuable players.

Victor Cruz is not a slot receiver.

May not be "just" a slot receiver...but 7 out 10 pass patterns he runs originate from the slot. Call him whatever you like..but he plays in the slot quite a bit, in fact for the Giants he pretty much owns that role in 3+ wr sets.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/single-season-receiving.htVictor is the best receiver on the team. That is a fact.
link - ( New Window )

In a 2 wr formation the slot receiver is on the bench.

VC is on the field.

that because Victor Cruz is on the field in a 2 WR set he is not a slot receiver? Wes Welker is on the field in 2 WR sets too. He is not a slot receiver?

For whoever posted Victor Cruz's single season record article, yes he had a ton of yards that year. That doesn't mean he is the best receiver on the field. Nicks frees him up into single coverage all the time.

That is like saying that Welker was the best receiver on the 2007 Patriots because he had over 100 catches and countless yards.

Go back and watch the 2011 post season and tell me again who the best receiver on the Giants is.

Thats exactly what im saying.

You dont understand the differnce.

The guy makes his living playing in the slot. Just like Welker, just like Amendola, just like Steve Smith did for us.

Just because he lines up outside sometimes does not mean he is not a slot receiver. Slot receiver does not mean 3rd string. As a poster stated earlier, 7 out of 10 plays he is lined up in the slot.

You are the one that clearly does not understand the difference.

A slot receiver in the traditional sense is only comes on the field when in long situation.

VC is not a slot receiver, stop saying that.

7 out 10 is not true.

VC made his bones playing slot in the 3 WR set.

Thats a bonus not a negative.

I swear

In what world is Victor Cruz not classified as a slot receiver? It is not a negative term deemed for 3rd string receivers who only come in on 3rd and long.

The guy lines up inside and works the middle of the field. Very well. Let me ask you a question.

If the giants are in a formation with just 2 receivers on the field lining up on the same side, where is Cruz lined up? He is not outside, he is in the slot working the middle of the field.

Welker is a slot receiver too. They are both great players.

VC puts together record team statistics for receiving yards and you guys are marginalizing him to the point that he does not deserve over 20 mil. This is probably his only chance to strike big $$$.

Wake up and smell the dirty tampon. He is worth every penny and them some in comparison to other receivers making the same $$$.

The question is what do you pay Nicks if Cruz gets this deal.

I htink you're dead worn of the assessment of trading or not signing JPP..If you look at what you have on the DL, Osi gone, Tuck on last legs, JPP is your building blocK..

You don't trade assets away for hope and prayer that you land some cheap good stars..JPP is only scratching the surface..And i agree with Anish, Cruz can be replaced if need be..I would rather have Nicks than Cruz given the choice..

I have no desire for the Giants to become the 80's version of the Chargers with Air Coryell..scoring 35 PPG and giving up 40..

Sorry you are wrong.

I dont what else to tell you.

Ps Welker isnt a slot receiver either.

I think at this point you are just trying to argue just to argue. Welker and Cruz are the definition of Slot Receivers. They are both GREAT slot receivers.

As to the question of what to pay Nicks after Cruz, if Cruz gets 25 million guaranteed, there is no more Nicks after this year.

Nicks is the only receiver on this team that can routinely beat a double team. If Cruz gets his and Nicks has to walk the Giants will make do but do not expect Cruz to make the same Magic as the receiver on the outside getting doubled on every play.

detract from the overall question and topic.
calling someone a slot guy does not mean he cant be an elite player. there is NO DISPUTING he does the bulk of his damage over the middle using his quickness and route running out of the slot. does he line up outside? of course he does some times. But the stop fade, deep post/flag, 1 on 1 outside beat the #1 CB is not what he has made his name on. It doesnt mean he is any worse or better. its an is what it is.
and why some of you act like people are sh$tting on cruz because they dont want to pay a RFA ... yes RFA!!!!!!! wake up and smell the fcking coffee... top UFA money is just stupid... ur just nuts, blind, and lost. He is under the giants control. any offer of over 20mio guaranteed is a pretty great offer by the giants. he has to weight the downside of 2mio this year and a shredded ACL. what mike wallace made means nothing. what bowe made means nothing. to cruz maybe, to the giants, NOTHING. does it make cruz less valuable? hell no. but they will offer him a fair RFA deal. i hope he takes it. If he doesnt, we get a great year out of him, and move forward with money allocation next offseason.
our WR for first SB were ENTIRELY Different then for the 2nd. the common denominators are Gilbride and Eli.
I would prefer to have a stud RT then have 2 10mio WRs anyway.

He's better than Mario Williams and more teams would line up to throw the monster deal his way. Every 4-3 team will want him.

So Terps may have a point about the value of Cruz over JPP. You have to factor in the cash when determining value so maybe they let JPP walk because the price is going to be crazy high.

Both guys are unique talents. Not many like them. But JPP is going to get a record setting deal.

On its face, the term means nothing more than a WR who lines up in the slot. The "Y" receiver.

What the term is used to mean, however, is a receiver who lines up in the slot and works underneath routes, a possession guy who moves the chains in short chunks. A smaller, shifty player without great speed, but with good hands and route running who operates within 10 yards of the LOS.

That last description ain't Victor Cruz.

He's much more than that.

Against the Dolphins. My definition of slot receiver is not a negative thing. Welker and Cruz are amazing at working the middle of the field and finding open space. That does not mean that they cannot take it to the house.

Welker play any other position than the slot WR spot?

The market for slot receivers has been set at 6 million per. Is Cruz worth more than that? Absolutely. The giants agree with me and are offering 7+ per year with 21 million guaranteed.

We should not be punished for the stupidity of the Dolphins giving Mike Wallace 12 million per year with 30 million guaranteed. If Cruz wants to walk after this year and rot in Jacksonville with more in his pocket then that is his decision. I do not think Nicks is worth the contract Wallace got either.

The giants agree with you?

Thats funny.

Shut the fuck up. You are a moron

Yes welker also lines up as the x, y.

The patriots are unpredictable in their formation.

Where did you get the7m per year figure?

You're making things up.

ok, thanks. For us Cruz is a Y and Z guy. Same with Steve Smith when he played for us.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/21939070/report-giants-offered-victor-cruz-7m-plus-annually-

Now youre quoting rumors?

This contract offer from the Giants looks awfully similar to the one the Giants offered Steve Smith after his career year. With more guaranteed money of course.

Again you dont know that to be true.

Youre making things up, rumors as fact.

That's what Wes Welker and Danny Amendola got paid.

Welker used to be great, but he's 32 and is clearly in physical decline.

Amendola's best season as an NFL WR totaled 689 yards and 3 TDs. And he has a troubling history of injuries.

Neither guy is a remotely fair comparison for a 26-year-old "slot WR" who has averaged over 1200 yards and 9 TDs in his only 2 seasons of regular-season NFL action. Wes and Danny getting $6M annually on the open market is evidence that Victor would be making significantly more than that.

and will have to settle for less. Period.

Or, sign the tender, take a huge chance of playing for that small amount and hope:

1-You stay healthy

2-Have the kind of year that would merit far more than you are passing up now(significant and guaranteed)

Some of you may remember when I posted about the agent change before it went down; I do have a well-informed source close to the Cruz situation. I met with him today and asked about the movement or lack thereof on the contract. I was told he'll take it to the tender date (19th) and then sign a deal (not a tender). Said it'll be multiyear, but no knowledge of the length or dollars. Feels good that Condon will get it done, especially with his Giants dealings in the past.

Playing hardball with him would be a mistake.

Thanks for the update. I know you put yourself out for BBI ridicule, but I for one believe this is exactly what will happen. He is in a negotiation cycle but will be a Giant in the end. Thank you.

You're like a breath of fresh air in a room full of smoke.

Cool! Thanks for the info

We'll smoke anywhere we want you mini bloomberg!

Thanks

And take those damned sneakers off!

That's great to hear.

I dunno...I had the burritos tonight so not sure about the fresh air...

Great to hear, a lot of these people that are undervaluing Cruz on here will be the same ones overvaluing him once he's signed long term.

It is expected/smart of him to wait till the date of the tender to sign, it's just a nice relief to know that he plans on signing the deal in place. He's basically been getting ripped by some posters for him doing his due diligence.

Bleh.

A few thoughts..

You are talking like you're in the front office. Nobody knows what he was guaranteed on what the contract terms are.

Contrary to popular belief, Cruz can play out the tender and make the Giants pay the tender for next year which is going to be north of 10M or let him walk..Either way, he is going to get his money.

People keep pointing out Steve Smith like it's a sure thing Cruz is goingto get injured. That was just a sample. Flacco did te same thing, didn't sign his offer, played out the last year of his contract and got paid, big time..

asshatery for the year!
Thanks for the update.

pganut!

And I can vouch that he has a good contact.

contract?

I cannot imagine Mr. Cruz putting on another uniform at this point.

I am contractually obligated to eat peanuts.

have allergies!

Cowboys, Eagles and Redskins fans.

It's speculative and all opinion. This is what the board's all about, no?

There has been plenty of speculation that Jay-Z’s new sports management firm resulted in Giants receiver Victor Cruz hiring CAA to negotiate his next contract with the Giants, or whoever he may sign with.

The speculation is accurate. Per a source with knowledge of the situation, Cruz hired CAA in anticipation of CAA and Jay-Z’s Roc Nation partnering in the overall representation and management of Cruz’s career.

Continued ... - ( New Window )

I'm confused. I thought Cruz hired Condon for as his agent?

..

Jay-Z's representation firm is attached to CAA.

Makes more sense now.

It's actually a fascination turn of events.

CAA is arguably the most powerful name in representation. It's not just sports, it's media and hollywood as well. They have huge names on their client list.

Partnering with Jay-Z is great for them because Jay brings instant credibility in terms of connecting with young athletes, but also, he's very good at branding and marketing, something a lot of people don't know.


He's arguably more successful as a businessman than an artist.

Jay-Z is the attention grabber, but the media plays it as if Jay-Z is his agent. That's not the case whatsover. Cano has an MLB certified Agent that works for CAA. Jay-Z is there to help him pursue other off-field interests.

I wouldn't say arguably, I'd say definitely

and miller it.

Not good. Cruz seems like such a good kid, but he has the kind of fame that worries me when it comes to his decision making. If you read his book, he came off as a great person, but like us all, filled with imperfections, and some immaturity. To go from nothing to this level of fame is very rare in football. Remember, Vic was not really a "star" anywhere from HS thru college. His dad is gone, and I wonder if he has anyone to tell him no. This could be headed for an ending no Giants fan wants.

I should be such a moron.

pganut!

Makes me long for "Glove one."

if he had any guiding influences in his life?

as a human being could be but even I know whatever Jay Z is, it isn't 'moronic'.

not JayZ.. sheesh..

this is BBI, and the "Rule of Z" is pretty ironclad around these parts. "Jay Z" triggering the "Moron!" reflex is pretty understandable.

or understand the intelligence that Jay-Z has

but Cruz ain't one.

he thinks he is worth more than this then I'd let him play out his RFA option, try and stay healthy, and walk away next year. Screw him and all atheletes that think they are bigger than the team!

He is not going to get more guar money than Bowe or Jackson who got 25m. So now that 21 is out there they could get this done.

Nicks can then get 1m more guaranteed per year

i would be really worried if the money offered was in the 17m range.

He is getting offered a contract with more g money than Colston signed last year and Colston has a better track record

I certainly wish I had this problem

Quote:

Some moronic rapper now involved....... Dry Lightning : 4/2/2013 10:23 pm

Looks like we are bringing the thread down a level with this nonsense.

Do you have any idea what kind of business man Jay-Z is or you just talking to be talking. BTW, Condon works for CAA..

brings the discussion down to moronic level of prejudice...With some ignorance for desert!

that people still cannot understand that Cruz has no reason to sign anything until he has to on April 19th is mind boggling. This doesn't make him greedy or mean his ego has gotten too big, This makes him smart. He gains nothing by signing now without exhausting all possibilities. Football is a business. Both sides are treating it as such and I just wish many fans could understand this.

I hate his music and even I know that Jay Z is a very successful businessman.

for a asecond without projectile vomiting, but dismissing his business accumen and successes wreaks of lots of bad things of racist origin.

Jay-Z is a Yankee fan and a Giants fan right.. seems simple enough.. who care about money now or the best deal..

yes.. sarcasm

Quote:

I have no desire for the Giants to become the 80's version of the Chargers with Air Coryell..scoring 35 PPG and giving up 40..

Neither do I, but welcome to the modern NFL.

I have no desire to see JPP go anywhere. I'm just saying that whenever and wherever he signs his next deal it is going to be massive. And given that our defense blew in 2011 with him playing DPOY-level ball, I'm wondering if paying him that much money is going to result in our playing better defense. We'll certainly have less cap space to utilize in that area.

And regarding the discussion between what to do if it comes down to one or the other between Cruz and JPP, the question to ask is do you think JPP is twice as important to the Giants in terms of helping them win games, because he's going to cost twice as much.

I don't think he is.

Victor Cruz has singlehandedly won multiple games for the Giants on individual effort big plays.

I don't have a memory of JPP having that kind of impact on games other than the Dallas game, and even with his defensive touchdown, they were goddamn close to losing the game.

I know what you're saying and i tend to disagree with you, but just on the principal that if we loose JPP, the idea of this team being built on Eli and Co and the DL comes to an end..The DL is in the worse shape as i can remember..They had at least Strahan for the better part of 15 years and whoever they threw on the other side be it, Bradtzke, Jones, Osi, Tuck, etc..Right now, the team has JPP and question marks..I'm not adding Kiwi because my thoughts on him is well documented in past threads..

I understand the thought that you need to have a potent offense in this new NFL, but i still believe you must have some type of defensive presence and be able to slow down some of these offenses..

I think even if Cruz get an offer sheet next year, which is very possible and walks, i think we can find a suitable replacement placement..Like Anish said, we've been replacing that position for about 5 years now..