Bob Papa on Cruz

and Nicks is a UFA who needs to be re-signed.

The two years, $13 million angle doesn't seem all that strong to me.

If this was the first offer or start of negotiations, I could understand your sentiment that he isn't greedy but only maximizing his worth. But, this is after months of negotiations, switching agents seemingly to get a deal done, etc. This is not the first offer and is a more than reasonable offer. At this point, it reeks of nothing more than greed.

but I don't think you need to devalue Cruz as a player to justify it.

Let's not forget who this tidbit is coming from. Papa is a company guy. Cruz is very conscious of his good guy image and Cruz won't want this sitting out there for long as he knows that like some have already said... That's a ton of guaranteed dough.

The front office is getting tired of playing this game. They gave Papa the info that will likely be the nudge to get the pen to meet the paper.

As far as the rest go, JJ simply isn't very good. Louis Murphy is what he is - a very fast guy with lousy hands. Good depth signing as the #4 WR but no threat to replace Cruz. Myers? Since the Giants under Coughlin have never really featured the TE as a major part of the offense, I doubt they start now with a safety-valve guy who has no big-play abilities.

franchise tag. There's no way that the Giants can take a cap hit of over $10M next year for Cruz

that Cruz has any edge in negotiations, is rather naive about how the RFA designation plays out

What radar just said.

I don't disagree at all with the way the giants are playing this out. Same with Cruz (after firing the first agent). Both parties have played this just fine and I expect a resolution at 8 per when we get to the tender deadline.

I am tending to agree with you. I wouldn't cut bait with Cruz in the hopes of keeping Nicks. When healthy, nicks is not only the better WR, but I think one of the top ten in the league. The problem is that big "if" in there. he hasn't stayed healthy for one season. Ideally, we can keep both. But, that would be a lot of money locked in at WR against the cap. How the Hell will they contiinue to field a competitive team?

More than reasonable to who, you? The front office? Cruz thinks he could get more on the market, and I happen to agree.

a math perspective, guarantees are typically 45-55% of entire contracts. That being the case the $$ range is from 38.2M at 55% or 46.7M at 45%, mid-point 42M, so the offer is likely at least 5 years/8+ avg. per plus incentives: possible even a 6 yr at 7+ per and incentives. Both more or less equate at the 42M mid point.
The math may differ based on the Wallace deal mentioned, but I'm unaware of the terms.
I agree with the 'fine line'comment made, if the rumor is fact. Mara loves him,and is responsible for him on the roster in the first place, and with the Nicks/JPP/LJ coming up next year, all has to be considered by Condon and Cruz. I know the FO is patient, but if this is becoming a monster,and it seems like they are getting greedy/selfish, I can imagine a call to StLouis, and the Giants throwing in a 7th for the #16.Or to some hellhole barely a QB that thinks he's a #1 and needs to sell tickets.

with those comments. I don't see Cruz being devalued...I just think you have to put it into perspective and realize he benefits from the attention Nicks draws and Manningham also got as the third WR in 2011.

As for there not being other players in the league like Cruz, I disagree...there are many of them...Amendola (when healthy) compares favourably, certainly Welker does also. But, in many systems, Cruz's chances are taken by tight ends as in Atlanta. And I think he also benefits from our system...

I mean there is only so much money to go around. If you pay Cruz big money then you can't pay Nicks or others. I think a guy like Cruz is much easier to replace than a guy like Nicks. Nicks makes the tough catches regularly when he is healthy as he did in the playoffs in 2011. Now, I am not saying Nicks does not benefit from Cruz when both are healthy and on the field but overall Nicks is the key guy.

...would you prefer him to be signed away now and we get a first round comp?

Or, have him play one more year with us and then he leaves in which case we "may" get a third rounder from the NFL in the 2015 Draft?

Nicks is a bit tougher, but the result of taking all those hits are regular injuries. Nicks is better at catching the football, and is a nightmare to tackle. Cruz is tremendous when he is focused, but at times he has drops when he is concerned about taking a hit.

The Giants want to sign both, and they complement each other. To accomplish signing both, they each have to take less money. Neither will be poor, but there will be receivers making more than them.

It will be tough to watch as it plays out. I think Cruz plays for the tender, and makes the Giants up their offer by mid season. Nonetheless, paying Nicks will always be in the back of their minds.

others have mentioned... what incentive does he have to sign before the 16th? You guys wouldn't be trying for every last penny? I know I would.

then you're way off.

with regard to the Franchise logic. If the Giants' try to bring the "we can tag him" argument as leverage, I think Condon calls that bluff. If Cruz does play out 2013 on the Tender salary, he's going to want out. And I don't recall the Giants ever using the tag to keep a player who wanted out. (I know they tagged Jumbo Elliot way back in '93-ish, but I don't remember the circumstances.)

just lulz

Quote:

As for there not being other players in the league like Cruz, I disagree...there are many of them...Amendola (when healthy) compares favourably, certainly Welker does also. But, in many systems, Cruz's chances are taken by tight ends as in Atlanta. And I think he also benefits from our system...

You don't see Cruz being devalued but thats exactly what you just did. Wow.

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because NO ONE is going to sign him to an offer sheet..This coming season should he play for his tender, there's no guarantee he'll put up numbers(even if he escapes injury) similar to even his past year. Wilson might get more receptions, as might Myers. Nicks, should a miracle occur and he stays healthy, might also take away from VC's productivity..

No matter how one cuts it, he'd be foolish not to assure his lifetime security by igning this year. It's speculative of course, but those numbers bing reported are beyond fair for Cruz, imo

Quote:

Which is why I say Cruz, who seems to be concerned about his image and legacy in the NY/NJ area, has to be smart about what he wants out of all this. To me, making a reasonable, comparable salary and earning money off the field while maintaining his local image would be very important to him.

What does this mean?

This is a business. The team is trying the most out of him for the least amount of pay. If another team is willing to pay him what he wants either now or after 2013, good for him. He has to do what he feels is the best for him and his family. If that means an extra 3 or 4 million, that's on him.

Reasonable? Who determines that? You really think that if Cruz held out for more money or left them for more dollars elsewhere his image and legacy would be tarnished? You really believe that?

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and 8.8 ypc.

You're just being ridiculous now.

where injuries keep him out or hamper his play, Cruz may be the one who would get franchised next year. The franchise tag 'threat' is still in play this year because it won't play out until next year.

not trying to "devalue" Cruz. I just don't think he is as dominant as some think. He might just break my top 10 list of wide receivers in the NFL. But I don't think he is top 5.

the Giants have looked ahead (as they always do) and figured out the maximum number of dollars they can offer Cruz without losing their flexibility to retain Nicks and JPP as well.

In the TC era, 2 things have been the main reasons for success, the pass rush and Eli's passing game.

I think a reasonable offer has been made to Cruz. it's up to him if he wants a reasonable deal or a mega-deal. If he wants the latter, that's fine, it just won't be with the Giants.

can go ahead and do so, but there's no goddamned way David Wilson has more receptions than Cruz.

I said that Wilson and Myers may take throws away from Cruz, not that they'd catch more? Seriously?

when compared to what other WRs have received,Greg Jennings got 18M guaranteed as a UFA as an example.

play the system as long as he can? Call it greed if you want ( I don't)but his agent is trying to get what he can. Reeses and Mara know that. Condon knows they have a limit on what they will offer. Plus, there is no pressure on Cruz to sign today. And, he is absolutely a game changer.

Poor wording. I meant more catches for them and hence less for VC

they stray far from it. They are going to make every effort to keep Nicks next year (even if it means letting Cruz walk) b/c Nicks is the better player, the more complete player and does more for this offense. Nicks is prob top 5 when healthy. I agree with the Giants, I think its the right move, especially if Nicks stays healthy this year.

As written by you, that's exactly how it read.

Hell we could be Cowboy fans paying a CHOKE ARTIST $55 MIL guaranteed!

But if Myers is taking receptions away from Cruz, that's a bad thing for the Giants' offense. Myers is Chris Cooley redux, a guy that's good for catching dumpoffs and nothing else.

49ers making an offer???

The Giants and Cruz are both playing the game by the rules that have been set for them.

It may be Cruz's first payday, but that's not the Giants' fault. He might wait until the last minute to sign the tender, but that's not Cruz' fault. This is just how negotiations go in the NFL.

As for the franchise tag - I don't think the Giants are above using it, and they're certainly not above threatening it for negotiation purposes. The reality that Cruz faces is that he might be here for 2 years at an average of $7m per regardless of his desire, by virtue of his RFA status and the franchise tag feature of the NFL.

I also agree with Eric regarding Cruz's playmaking. He's definitely a top-10 guy, but last season proved he's not top-5. If one or two guys got overpaid, good for them, but those are exceptions not the norm.

If he is dreaming of a big time contract then its time to move on after next season.

1 player does not make a franchise. unless its a QB. and last I checked Cruz was not a QB.

I love him, love him in blue and he is a wonderful player asking/demanding huge money and thus over paid. At this point I would not mind a sign and trade deal. As I would hate for the Giants to commit huge amount of cap space to him.

I also think the celeb kind of life he is living is making him dream and might effect his level of play (dropes) and he is full of himself otherwise if indeed this is what the Giants are willing to pay him which is very good money for a #2 WR slot WR and he is saying no then F him.

at all to say $21 million guaranteed over 5 years is an extremely fair offer by the Giants..

Its a more then fair offer. If he takes it great, if not then Oh well. We have all the leverage here.

No question it is a risk.

However, if Cruz has 50 catches, 550 yards, and 6 TD's at the midway point and Nicks is struggling with his production because of injuries or othere reasons, the Giants will have to increase their offer. The leverage shifts completely to Cruz. Cruz may not be a top 5 receiver, but he is definitely in the top 10 and I don't think we want to risk a Giant offense with Eli throwing to Randle, Louis Murphy and Jerrel Jernigan. I say that as a believer in all three of those players.

If Nicks plays 8 games at the 2010-11 production level, Cruz will have to sign the existing offer or leave.

Currently, the Giants have the advantage, that could change.

And there always is the chance someone could offer him more while he waits, even if the doesn't appear likely at this point.

If that's the case then the Giants are not lowballing him at all.

Just my assumption.

The benefit is so he doesn't become a javon walker. The Pack offered him a good deal and he wouldn't make a deal, played his last year out, got hurt, and got nothing. Similiar to our Steve Smith. Not to mention, it allows JR to finalize how to deal with finances.

I agree, and that's how I look at it. I would hate to see Cruz leaves, but if he does, then we find the next guy to plug into the system. I am not worried about that.

Cruz is likely to play all 5 years.

I don't see him being worth more than 7-8 million per year.