As to "dispute," I would hardly categorize the ongoing negotiations as that..
Quote:
The Giants have demonstrated a willingness to negotiate Cruz's contract in the media. If the dispute drags on, it wouldn't be a surprise for owner John Mara to start making statements about the reasonableness of their position in an attempt to put public pressure on Cruz to accept their offer. Cruz has taken the high road by refusing to publicly comment on his negotiations. He may want to reconsider his stance if the impasse can't be broken.
Not sure that's accurate as all Mara has said is that he believes the offer is fair and will make him a wealthy young man and that he believes it will get done. No figures have been mentioned, just speculation by the media(VC wants 10, Giants offering 7-8)..
Sadly it's become the norm that teams can't afford two star receivers - what an indictment of the system that is. We've already seen some talented receivers come and go during Eli's career, it'd be a shame if one of these two was added to that list.
...to compare his production seems fair rather than his position. His numbers have been stellar.
I expect the Giants to sit tight with their offer in the estimated $8 million range...let Cruz get more and more nervous/frustrated with the situation...let the pressure build...then as public opinion begins to sway against Cruz with the opening of training camp up their offer to the $9 million range. Cruz/Condon will exhale and reach for a pen...posthaste...if they are smart.
It sounds like they are very far apart, otherwise it would have been finished by now. They have essentially been working on this since sometime during or at the end of last season. They seem stalemated.
It is surprising that Cruz did not allow Condon to solicit offers from other teams. We all thought that other teams simply weren't willing to part with a first round pick, and that may have been true, but Cruz apparently didn't even want to find out.
Mara's has been talking because of Cruz's popularity Â
Cruz has a very big fan base (football and non-football). The Giants dont want to look like they are low balling one of their premier players. Most people, at least judging by comments here on BBI, believe the $8m figure the Giants are offering is a fair amount.
Cruz and his agent may not see things the same way, and he could get a better deal from another team in 2014, but at least most fans wont blame the team for letting him walk.
He's a hidden gem. Most people follow names, who do little to nothing (Peter King comes to mind). Each time you read one of Joel Corry's articles you either learn something new, or he points out something that makes you think critically. Am I partial to him? Yes I am, but that doesn't take away from the fact his articles are great.
Tom Condon and his agency have historically displayed a pension to take a hard line when negotiating contracts. Condon is an agent who will counsel his client to hold out. Holdouts generally do not work out well for the team or the player.
The player loses.
If Cruz misses one year salary due to a holdout, assuming $8,000,000./ year,he would need to get paid $10,000,000 / year over 4 years just to make back the lost salary. What compounds Cruz's situation is that he can be franchised next year as a slot receiver, which will likely pay him only $8,000,000 for the following year, therefore, Cruz will have to wait two years before he can sign his $10,000,000 a year contract.The likely hood that he will be able to command that type of contract in two years is remote.
If Cruz does not perform up to his prior standards and or he is injured during the next two years, he will never get a 4-5 year contract for $40,-$50 M and $20 M guaranteed. See Steve Smith.
The Giants lose.
The Giants will lose out by not having Cruz play, or play in a diminished capacity. Cruz is an essential component of the team. They also run the risk of alienating some players on the team who may sympathize with Cruz.
In the 70's and 80's veterans would do whatever they could to miss off-season training. Why spend 5 weeks playing catch and flag football in the heat when you're going to take the next month off anyway? Any rythem gained will be lost in July and have to be re-gained at camp. Vets used to hold out all the time.
Cruz obviously isn't interested in leaving and probably isn't real interested in spending time in an activity that won't move him up the depth chart and in which the best case scenario for him personally is that he doesn't tangle knees with an undrafted rookie DB trying like crazy to make the team.
Guys used to use the new contract negotiation bit to miss summer practice all the time. Nicks is there because he's under contract to be. Cruz is working the system.
Mini-camp will end and sometime over the next couple of weeks Cruz and the Giants will come to an understanding and sign a contract so he can use the facilities and be there at the beginning of camp when things matter.
place to read when the majority of the facts stated in that article was already made on bbi these last couple of months, in the sticky threads and such
it was even reported already that the giants offered a short term deal as implied by the agent in the cbs piece. i think it was, however, back when cruz was represented by that young rookie agent dude
A franchised WR is not broken down position to my knowledge. A franchised WR can probably make $10M now.
The Giants can sit this out and just offer the 2.9M tender. At the end of 2013 season, the will see if Nicks can stay healthy or not and decide who to pay then.
Like others have said, it's a sunna biotch to pay for a franchise QB and 2 star receivers.
traditionally the slot receiver is a specialist receiver that only comes on the field when the situation requires it. That type of receiver is like a nickel corner, a part-time player.
Cruz plays the Z and the Y. On first second and third down Victor Cruz is on the field.
when every other non slot receiver was injured, did Cruz change positions? I'm thinking not. If so, that means the Giants are only going to use Cruz as a slot receiver, and that's all they're going to pay him as.
For instance, the pro Jernigan contingent here says JJ has no opportunity to play as long as Cruz is healthy. If Cruz is so much more than a slot receiver, and JJ is reasonably capable, why didn't they move Cruz and insert JJ?
Here are the finalized franchise and transition tag #s for 2013 btw: Â
First, the article states that Cruz told Condon not to get bids from other teams. But the article doesn't mention that Condon was the second agent working for this off-season. The first agent might not have had the same restrictions.
Second, he does a great job of researching the salaries other receivers have received on the open market recently. I just think he didn't paid enough attention to the differences between Cruz and some of the other receivers situations including the fact he is more of a hybrid who has done his best work in the slot. Not every team is going to pay top dollar for that combination
Thanks for the clarification. I thought that there were compensation distinctions based upon the positions that receivers played for purposes in determining the franchise and transition tag amounts.
I also thought that there was a distinction between offensive line tag compensations.
Rob
The slot terminology is not intended to suggest that the receiver is a specialist receiver. I am only referring to his position on the field.
X is also known as the split-end position. The X is typically split out and plays on the line. This receiver is usually either strong enough to just push guys trying to press them off or the guy is very good with his hands to rip underneath the press and get into his route quickly.
The Y or slot receiver is usually a good route runner who has strong hands and is very quick. You often see teams play their best man-to-man corner against the slot because it is so tough to defend.
The Z WR or flanker lines up off the line to avoid the press. The Z is usually the deep threat of the offense. This player is used to spread the field and also is used to run reverses and to catch screens.
when every other non slot receiver was injured, did Cruz change positions? I'm thinking not. If so, that means the Giants are only going to use Cruz as a slot receiver, and that's all they're going to pay him as.
I dont understand your first questions.
Quote:
For instance, the pro Jernigan contingent here says JJ has no opportunity to play as long as Cruz is healthy. If Cruz is so much more than a slot receiver, and JJ is reasonably capable, why didn't they move Cruz and insert JJ?
is because our 3 wr sets, is usually Hakeem, Randle/Hixon, with Cruz operating in the slot. Two WR sets, Hakeem and Cruz. When Hakeem missed 3 games due to injury after the Bucs game, Barden and Hixon filled in.
Archer - You're not the only one who thought that Â
Cruz actually benefits from the franchise distinction because his WR brethren who play the Z inflate the numbers for guys like him who play the Y position.
Guards and Centers also benefit from their brethren on the O-Line who play Tackle, especially Left Tackle.
Cruz doesn’t get bumped down to the slot. Cruz is the z, and he also plays the Y. This a bonus and not a negative.
In the regular defense JPP is the RDE.
In the Nascar package JPP lines up as a RDT, Osi take over as the RDE. Do you guys consider JPP a lesser player because he slides inside? On the contrary its major advantage.
It will be difficult for the Giants to have two highly paid wide receivers.
This is an obvious statement, but it concerns me. I am not counting on anything at this point. Perhaps the Giants' offer really is "take it or leave it" now because they don't think they can do much more and still have a reasonable shot at keeping Nicks next year? If they really want Nicks, maybe it really is the case that Cruz is going to play for the tender and then walk after the season?
Giants cannot afford to pay Cruz the $10M he is apparently seeking. We have already reached our max at $8M IMO. That is a very large gap.
I also fear we may have the same problem with Nicks, who apparently is thinking about ~$12M a year if he has a good season and stays healthy. We cannot afford that either, and I wouldn't overpay for either simply to avoid losing both.
If Cruz is more than a slot receiver, he can do the non slot roles. Almost everyone says his primary asset is his ability as a slot receiver. If he doesn't do more than the slot receiver roles (or the giants don't use him anywhere but slot), then he is indeed just a slot receiver. he can be very good in that role, but he still is just a slot receiver.
the pro Jernigan contingent are those that defend him as potentially being good, but not getting a chance because Cruz is ahead of him. Lumping all of BBI together, if Cruz is more than a slot, and JJ is capable in the slot, why didn't we see that last year? Maybe we did, and JJ just didn't produce. I'd have to look and see how many plays JJ was in for.
didnt we have a poster here who knew that negotiations were close? Â
new info in it, was that Cruz didn't allow Condon to solicit offers from any other club.
The only way the author knows this would be, of course, through Condon "planting" information to him. So the whole piece becomes a way for Cruz and Condon to "negotiate in the media" without negotiating in the media and therefor still taking the highroad. In principle, anyway.
I guess Condon wanted to make sure everyone knows that it's not that VC couldn't have solicited offers as an UFA, but rather that he chose not to.
If you believe it, which is not necessarily true until you get 31 team FOs to validate it.
Nice subtle work by Condon and his team.
Curtis the issue isnt that those numbers are good they are Â
the problem is that Cruz will not have as much success on the outside as he does from the slot. He wants to be paid like a number one outside receiver because he has put up numbers like one. However the problem is that the Giants offense allows for the slot receiver to run option routs so he can be productive. Steve Smith was very productive from the same position before the injury.. Cruz productive after that.
It is very possible that the Giants realize this. The problem occurs however when you dont have that true number one in Nicks on the opposite he isnt AS productive. Nicks tend to draw the top receiver and makes catches even with defenders draped all over him.. That means he draws the tougher coverage.
That being said. They are a very compliment to one another. If they both come in a little under their value they could both prosper with Eli for years to come.
The only way the author knows this would be, of course, through Condon Â
That is not new news that Cruz wasn't actively seeking offers during the RFA period. That came out a while ago.
Other than not signing a contract that you think is good value, I don't know how anyone can have any problems with the way Cruz and his agent have handled themselves during this process.
with the best. He has great patience and will wait out Cruz. Most of the time this works to the Giants' advantage. Occassionally, it will backfire. We'll see. I'd be surprised , if Cruz decides to wait an entire year to get a bigger contract considering the risk of injury. Even at the Giants' offer, he'll be making a huge amount. Two years ago he couldn't even dream about being in this position.
Agree with you regarding Reese. History has shown that he's more than willing to let the player take his time when it comes to contract negotiations and he will not allow himself to be pressured into doing something he doesn't think will benefit the team or goes against his plan. I also think that Condon knows this by now and at some point tell Cruz 'Hey look...this guy isn't going to up his offer any more than he has so at this point it's a take or leave offer.' and suggest he either sign the long term deal in front of him or play the season on the tender and see if he can have another great year and cash in next year (provided the team doesn't tag him with either the Franchise or Transition tags).
We've been hearing for months that this thing is getting close to being resolved from both sides (Giants and Team Vic). I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case. At this point it's my belief that Cruz is simply taking advantage of the fact that he's not under contract at the moment and using this time to do everything he wants to do while he has the time to do it and will sign either the tender or the long term contract right before training camp. Right now he doesn't HAVE to be there (or risk getting fined), so he's not.
fkap - I think what Rob is saying is what many of us have been saying for awhile now and, IMO, is THE main reason why this contract has been so difficult to get done and that's the fact that Cruz is not only a slot receiver. He starts, along with Nicks, on the outside and moves into the slot when the team goes 3 (or more) wide. Not sure what your point regarding Jernigan is since he's done so little since coming into the league. Since he's been here he's always had at least 3 healthy WRs who the team perceives to be better than him ahead of him whether it be Nicks, Cruz, Hixon, Randle or even Barden. It's telling that the game where Jernigan may have had the best shot to get on the field this past season (the Panthers game) they instead decided to go with a rookie (Randle) at the 3rd WR spot than Jernigan (see link below to review of Panthers game). Randle handles the #3 spot - ( New Window )
I think there is a subtle difference between "not actively soliciting" and downright refusing your agent the permission to solicit. But I could be nitpicking.
I agree that there's no complaint to be made about Cruz or his agents' action till now, in any way. They are refusing to sign an offer they feel is below VC's value, which is their right. At the same time they are saying VC wants very much to remain a Giant.
Hopefully it gets done at numbers both sides can swallow without choking.
expert, but clearly it sounds like locking up both Cruz and Nicks long term will be a tall order at best (which is supported by the linked article). That being the case, do we really want Cruz to sign a long-term deal if it means increasing the offer a bit? What would that mean for our chances of keeping Nicks?
And Reese knows this so he can be patient because I would expect Condon to move toward convincing Cruz to take the Giant's offer as time begins to run out. Its a heck of a lot more than he'd make if Cruz play's on his tender.
Not sure that's accurate as all Mara has said is that he believes the offer is fair and will make him a wealthy young man and that he believes it will get done. No figures have been mentioned, just speculation by the media(VC wants 10, Giants offering 7-8)..
nice find
I expect the Giants to sit tight with their offer in the estimated $8 million range...let Cruz get more and more nervous/frustrated with the situation...let the pressure build...then as public opinion begins to sway against Cruz with the opening of training camp up their offer to the $9 million range. Cruz/Condon will exhale and reach for a pen...posthaste...if they are smart.
It sounds like they are very far apart, otherwise it would have been finished by now. They have essentially been working on this since sometime during or at the end of last season. They seem stalemated.
It is surprising that Cruz did not allow Condon to solicit offers from other teams. We all thought that other teams simply weren't willing to part with a first round pick, and that may have been true, but Cruz apparently didn't even want to find out.
Cruz and his agent may not see things the same way, and he could get a better deal from another team in 2014, but at least most fans wont blame the team for letting him walk.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/22356822/agents-take-analyzing-the-49ers-blueprint-for-longterm-success
The player loses.
If Cruz misses one year salary due to a holdout, assuming $8,000,000./ year,he would need to get paid $10,000,000 / year over 4 years just to make back the lost salary. What compounds Cruz's situation is that he can be franchised next year as a slot receiver, which will likely pay him only $8,000,000 for the following year, therefore, Cruz will have to wait two years before he can sign his $10,000,000 a year contract.The likely hood that he will be able to command that type of contract in two years is remote.
If Cruz does not perform up to his prior standards and or he is injured during the next two years, he will never get a 4-5 year contract for $40,-$50 M and $20 M guaranteed. See Steve Smith.
The Giants lose.
The Giants will lose out by not having Cruz play, or play in a diminished capacity. Cruz is an essential component of the team. They also run the risk of alienating some players on the team who may sympathize with Cruz.
Cruz obviously isn't interested in leaving and probably isn't real interested in spending time in an activity that won't move him up the depth chart and in which the best case scenario for him personally is that he doesn't tangle knees with an undrafted rookie DB trying like crazy to make the team.
Guys used to use the new contract negotiation bit to miss summer practice all the time. Nicks is there because he's under contract to be. Cruz is working the system.
Mini-camp will end and sometime over the next couple of weeks Cruz and the Giants will come to an understanding and sign a contract so he can use the facilities and be there at the beginning of camp when things matter.
Doesnt exist, this is false.
it was even reported already that the giants offered a short term deal as implied by the agent in the cbs piece. i think it was, however, back when cruz was represented by that young rookie agent dude
The Giants can sit this out and just offer the 2.9M tender. At the end of 2013 season, the will see if Nicks can stay healthy or not and decide who to pay then.
Like others have said, it's a sunna biotch to pay for a franchise QB and 2 star receivers.
Cruz plays the Z and the Y. On first second and third down Victor Cruz is on the field.
For instance, the pro Jernigan contingent here says JJ has no opportunity to play as long as Cruz is healthy. If Cruz is so much more than a slot receiver, and JJ is reasonably capable, why didn't they move Cruz and insert JJ?
Source: "NFL, NFLPA release franchise tag numbers" by Marc Sessler, Around the League Writer | Published: March 1, 2013 at 10:46 a.m. Updated: March 1, 2013 at 05:30 p.m
Second, he does a great job of researching the salaries other receivers have received on the open market recently. I just think he didn't paid enough attention to the differences between Cruz and some of the other receivers situations including the fact he is more of a hybrid who has done his best work in the slot. Not every team is going to pay top dollar for that combination
Thanks for the clarification. I thought that there were compensation distinctions based upon the positions that receivers played for purposes in determining the franchise and transition tag amounts.
I also thought that there was a distinction between offensive line tag compensations.
Rob
The slot terminology is not intended to suggest that the receiver is a specialist receiver. I am only referring to his position on the field.
X is also known as the split-end position. The X is typically split out and plays on the line. This receiver is usually either strong enough to just push guys trying to press them off or the guy is very good with his hands to rip underneath the press and get into his route quickly.
The Y or slot receiver is usually a good route runner who has strong hands and is very quick. You often see teams play their best man-to-man corner against the slot because it is so tough to defend.
The Z WR or flanker lines up off the line to avoid the press. The Z is usually the deep threat of the offense. This player is used to spread the field and also is used to run reverses and to catch screens.
Cruz typically lines up in the Y position.
I dont understand your first questions.
I never heard of a pro Jernigan contingent?
Guards and Centers also benefit from their brethren on the O-Line who play Tackle, especially Left Tackle.
Cruz doesn’t get bumped down to the slot. Cruz is the z, and he also plays the Y. This a bonus and not a negative.
In the regular defense JPP is the RDE.
In the Nascar package JPP lines up as a RDT, Osi take over as the RDE. Do you guys consider JPP a lesser player because he slides inside? On the contrary its major advantage.
This is an obvious statement, but it concerns me. I am not counting on anything at this point. Perhaps the Giants' offer really is "take it or leave it" now because they don't think they can do much more and still have a reasonable shot at keeping Nicks next year? If they really want Nicks, maybe it really is the case that Cruz is going to play for the tender and then walk after the season?
He is overplaying his hand in my opinion
I also fear we may have the same problem with Nicks, who apparently is thinking about ~$12M a year if he has a good season and stays healthy. We cannot afford that either, and I wouldn't overpay for either simply to avoid losing both.
the pro Jernigan contingent are those that defend him as potentially being good, but not getting a chance because Cruz is ahead of him. Lumping all of BBI together, if Cruz is more than a slot, and JJ is capable in the slot, why didn't we see that last year? Maybe we did, and JJ just didn't produce. I'd have to look and see how many plays JJ was in for.
The only way the author knows this would be, of course, through Condon "planting" information to him. So the whole piece becomes a way for Cruz and Condon to "negotiate in the media" without negotiating in the media and therefor still taking the highroad. In principle, anyway.
I guess Condon wanted to make sure everyone knows that it's not that VC couldn't have solicited offers as an UFA, but rather that he chose not to.
If you believe it, which is not necessarily true until you get 31 team FOs to validate it.
Nice subtle work by Condon and his team.
It is very possible that the Giants realize this. The problem occurs however when you dont have that true number one in Nicks on the opposite he isnt AS productive. Nicks tend to draw the top receiver and makes catches even with defenders draped all over him.. That means he draws the tougher coverage.
That being said. They are a very compliment to one another. If they both come in a little under their value they could both prosper with Eli for years to come.
Other than not signing a contract that you think is good value, I don't know how anyone can have any problems with the way Cruz and his agent have handled themselves during this process.
We've been hearing for months that this thing is getting close to being resolved from both sides (Giants and Team Vic). I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case. At this point it's my belief that Cruz is simply taking advantage of the fact that he's not under contract at the moment and using this time to do everything he wants to do while he has the time to do it and will sign either the tender or the long term contract right before training camp. Right now he doesn't HAVE to be there (or risk getting fined), so he's not.
fkap - I think what Rob is saying is what many of us have been saying for awhile now and, IMO, is THE main reason why this contract has been so difficult to get done and that's the fact that Cruz is not only a slot receiver. He starts, along with Nicks, on the outside and moves into the slot when the team goes 3 (or more) wide. Not sure what your point regarding Jernigan is since he's done so little since coming into the league. Since he's been here he's always had at least 3 healthy WRs who the team perceives to be better than him ahead of him whether it be Nicks, Cruz, Hixon, Randle or even Barden. It's telling that the game where Jernigan may have had the best shot to get on the field this past season (the Panthers game) they instead decided to go with a rookie (Randle) at the 3rd WR spot than Jernigan (see link below to review of Panthers game).
Randle handles the #3 spot - ( New Window )
I agree that there's no complaint to be made about Cruz or his agents' action till now, in any way. They are refusing to sign an offer they feel is below VC's value, which is their right. At the same time they are saying VC wants very much to remain a Giant.
Hopefully it gets done at numbers both sides can swallow without choking.
While Cruz takes a licking and keeps ticking, Nicks misses some games every year.
The problem is that without Nicks, Cruz's impact on the game is reduced.
Is this a chicken or the egg situation?