have had a KICK ASS offseason. I could not have dreamed up a better off season. They managed to improve the team. Re-sign all their guys while adding a few 1 year prove it deals to some very good players AND they signed Cruz long term? Fucking tits man. Tits.
before I get really worried about how much he "should" cost us. In my mind, these are important years for both JPP and Nicks, but for different reasons, but both with regard to how it nets into what is expected contract value.
the whole thing about Nicks needing to prove he can stay healthy
is a bit overstated if you ask me. Lets put it this way. If Nicks misses 6 games next season due to an ankle sprain but plays like a beast in the other 10 games --scores 8 TDs with 55 catches and 800 yards receiving, does anyone really think he won't get a huge contract from NY or someone else? ON the flip side, if Nicks plays in all 16 and has a great great year would it shock anyone if Nicks missed half of the 2014-15 season?
Unless Nicks loses a leg he's gonna get paid one way or the other. And if NY does not bring Nicks back, we have a hole to fill at WR whether Randle is the goods or not. Putting all this stock in a healthy 2013 season from Nicks is great in theory but it's not going to make THAT much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Nor should it. Guys get hurt all the time. One healthy year doesn't ensure a damn thing in years 2-3-4-5...
Thank you Victor for keeping your mouth shut and not fomenting
and BB56 may be the only guy that agrees with me. If Nicks misses 6 games next year, that is a huge red flag no matter what numbers he puts up in the other 10 games. His production when healthy is not the only metric or issue. His reliability (and durability is) and you must factor that in a big way before giving a 5 year monster contract to him.
Quite honestly, as someone else mentioned, the performance of Randle next year could have a big outside force on it too.
missed 6 guys due to injury next year, I'd be pissed. He won't get a big contract from us if that happened. However, he is young enough that some team would roll the dice and try to sign him.
A lot to disagree with in your last post, so I will take the low lying fruit... If Randle goes 65/1,000/8TDs this year Nicks will not be back in 2014 and the Giants will NOT have a huge hole to fill at WR. Randle is a major factor in Giants/Nicks situation.
if Nicks misses 6 games in 2013 but his injury is not serious, he will break the bank and get a huge contract from someone.
You're putting way too much stock in the value of one healthy season and its overall impact on that player's longevity.
If Nicks plays in all 16 games that doesn't necessarily mean the guy won't miss any games in 2014 or 2015.
UNless Nicks suffers a devastating injury he's gonna get a big long term deal. You can bank on it. He's a good player who will be free to sign anywhere. Someone will chase the shiny and hope that his nagging injuries don't carry over.
How many guys have an injury free season only to get hurt the following season? How healthy Nicks is in 2013 means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things as long as he doesn't suffer a serious injury, or course.
that fell under the injury prone label due to 2-3 injury plagued seasons only to see that player subsequently turn things around and stay healthy for 2-3-4 straight seasons.
It's a crap shoot more often than not. No matter what happens with Nicks this season no one knows how healthy he is going to be in 2014 and beyond. Good luck trying to figure that out.
is a real question for the Giants. If not the Giants, there is some team that will give him an enormous contract. However, while a terrific wide out and one i hope the Giants can keep, he does not have the great speed that makes him impossible to cover and necessitates a max-deal. Also, there is the injury problem and the development of Randle. While he might want a five year--$60 million contract, i think the Giants can legitimately offer Nicks a five year--$50 or $55 million contract. If he gets a larger offer and takes the money, the Giants took their best shot and so be it.
only you thought it would come a bit later, just before the official start of training camp. jlukes, don't break your elbow patting yourself, a lot of people had the numbers pretty well predicted (assuming VC would in fact sign with the Giants.) essentially those #s were as high as the Giants would go - JR and the team dictated the terms.
Josh in the City - WTF?
Quote:
incredible!
Josh in the City : 1:32 pm
that's the right dollar amount for both sides.
What's incredible about it if it's the right #s for both sides? Maybe I missed your point there?
To whomever worries now that "Nicks is gone". No, there will be cap room to re-sign or extend Nicks, so long as he isn't looking for Calvin - Fitz type dough rey me.
Nice job getting it done finally to both parties to the contract.
is a great signing for the Giants. Good for Cruz too but he knows he could have held out for at least 8.5 to 9M somewhere else next year. Glad this got done.
Yep, Nicks will have to stay healthy this year to get dream dollars. I'd imagine if he misses a few games this season, teams will factor that into any offers.
It's a win win deal. Cruz gets rich, the Giants keep their most consistent offensive weapon over the last three seasons at home...where he belongs.
This contract sets the stage for more championships to come. The deal allows the team future flexibility within the salary cap structure. They have room to reinvest in Hakeem Nicks and JPP if they see fit to do so based on their performance and durability this season.
Mr. Mara took an unusually active role in this process early on with his statements to the media. I think it was effective but hope it is an anomaly. JR&Co played their hand very well.
Great to keep you in beloved Blue VC! See you at training camp.
he still has to play multiple years without hurting his back to get a massive contract. There is no point of even bringing him up, especially with 2 years left.
and for actually cheaper than I thought it would be...but I cant sit here and say I wasn't one of the people who didn't want to throw big money at Cruz. Go ball out Cruz...show us you're worth every penny of that contract.
Just guessing, but I think 2015 is a player option.
As far as Victor Crus' new deal is concerned, Jason Fitzgerald from overthecap.com has his 2013 cap number as being LOWER that the $2.879 M tender amount. He's got Cruz's cap number for this coming season as being $2,530,000 (that's a net cap savings differential of $349,000). I'll check this out again tomorrow to be sure. Here are two Cruz links:
Why are you guessing that the sixth year is a player option? That doesn't seem likely to me.
I would guess that there may be some escalator clauses attached to the sixth year or that it may be voidable based on certain parameters being met, but an unfettered option year given to a player is not very common as far as I recall.
so glad to have him back. If Nicks stays healthy and Randle takes a step up, this team's passing attack has so much potential. And then add in David Wilson and Brown for the ground game... damn I'm getting excited for Giants football.
player options on rookie contracts. it sounds off. team option, maybe.
actually, what would be the point, why on earth would you want to a one year player option, even if you were the player, on the $ of your rookie contract at that.
"The money is paid over the first two years via a $9.5 million signing bonus, a $630,000 base salary in 2013, a $1.5 million roster bonus due in 2014, and a $4 million base salary in 2014. All of those payments are guaranteed."
Does the 2014 roster bonus apply to only the 2014 cap, the 2014-2018 caps or the 2013-2018 caps?
Typically, roster bonuses are amortized over all remaining years on the contract. So 2014-2018 is the most likely answer. (It is possible for teams to deliberately not amortize bonuses, but I can't see any reason why the Giants would do that here.)
Nicks has more to do with the Giants winning than JPP does, IMO
Of course the injuries are a factor, but they may be with JPP as well.
Considering that JPP figures to cost much more than Nicks, if it comes down to one or the other I don't think it's a contest. Sign Nicks.
Eli is 32. The time to surround him with the best possible tools (that means familiarity with both Eli and the offensive system) is now. No more wasting Eli time on getting guys acclimated.
If I had to decide today and it was one or the other
the whole JPP vs Nicks thing is brutally hard to determine. Even last year's version of JPP was damn good. Was Nicks really more important to that 2011 team than JPP?
JPP was the best player on the field at times in 2011. I can't see the Giants letting that kind of player walk. Stud pass rushers are so hard to find.
I'd rather not think about JPP just yet. We have time and Nicks is the guy to worry about. Remember, a lot of former cap killers are coming off the books soon. Tuck, Diehl, Rolle, Snee, Webster maybe Baas....we will have room to sign the next wave of stars. The transition has already begun.
UNLESS we can get Nicks NOW for a low figure like 7-9/year(most likely NOT happening), I would let Nicks play out this season and if he has a terrific year and actually plays an entire 16 healthy, I'd franchise him while trying to work out a long term deal..NO WAY I sign him to a big contract now. I would think the Giants want to see him perform in top notch fashion, injury-free(other than usual minor stuff players go through) before committing big money to him and I as a fan support that 100%
...they will re-sign both. The money can always be worked out.
The guys who the Giants truly want to keep, they keep. The only one who got away that they wanted to keep was Steve Smith, but that was partly due to the fact that he didn't give them a chance to match the Eagles offer and partly due to the uncertainty surrounding his return from injury.
$10M annually is especially probable for Nicks. If he establishes that he can be his 2011 self again, the VJax and D. Bowe contracts (both in the $11M-$12M per year range) are where he's going to start the bidding.
And if he doesn't have a good year, health-wise, I suspect that he'd go for a 1 or 2 year extension before he'd sign a long-term deal at a lower figure.
but I am really worried about Nicks injury history and that is why I would wait to give him a big contract, he needs to play this whole year at an elite level
Regarding JPP, I know I am in the minority, but I just don't have him in that phenom category yet. He was one of the best on our D last year and maybe our poor defensive performance hurt him as well but I just don't have him in Mario Williams money territory. Note, I am not saying that he would get that from someone, I just don't want that someone to be the Giants until JPP really performs this year at a minimum.
Again, i know I may be in the minority but I just don't see how losing JPP hurts all that much when the defense collectively is so porous.
I just finished reading all the postes in this thread which has turned into a Nicks VS JPP discussion.
My thoughts on Nicks are that the Giants should wait to see his health throughout this season before determining his value. My guess is they will do that because his health has been an issue. I agree with those who say if he has health issues again or a sub par performance season the Giants aren'r going to make him a big offer and I won't blame them.
A strong argument could be made that the very best defenders in the league (say, Revis, Aldon Smith, or DeMarcus Ware) aren't worth Mario Williams money. The recent Super Bowl champions have not been strong defensive teams:
While that's hardly a robust scientific analysis, I do think it lends a bit to the idea that offense has had a greater role in winning titles...particularly in the example of our two titles. Consider also that the presence of the Steelers twice in that list skews the numbers a bit as they have been a team built completely on defense in recent years.
You can say the Giants on that list twice also skews the numbers.
Just curious bro...Why did you start from 2005? Was there is historical scenario I missed? Personally, I would have started from 2002, the first year of realignment when the divisions were altered, making the playoff format different then it used to be.
No reason really. There didn't seem to be a spot that made sense to stop...though I guess you could say 2005 was the first season the Giants really started competing in the Coughlin/Eli era, so that's as good a spot as any.
We'll keep them both. The guy we'll be letting go because of the cap is Linval Joseph. There is other cap saving to be had as we all know. The bargain we got on Cruz allows us the flexibility for JPP and Nicks.
it will be because he did not get a Mario Williams contract offer. can't see him getting that type of deal here. can't see anyone getting that type of money here except for QB1.
jpp will be a FA in the winter of 2016 i guess
I think Optimus just screwed up, it happens
Unless Nicks loses a leg he's gonna get paid one way or the other. And if NY does not bring Nicks back, we have a hole to fill at WR whether Randle is the goods or not. Putting all this stock in a healthy 2013 season from Nicks is great in theory but it's not going to make THAT much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Nor should it. Guys get hurt all the time. One healthy year doesn't ensure a damn thing in years 2-3-4-5...
Your combination of talent and judgment that is altogether rare in today's NFL.
Quite honestly, as someone else mentioned, the performance of Randle next year could have a big outside force on it too.
You're putting way too much stock in the value of one healthy season and its overall impact on that player's longevity.
If Nicks plays in all 16 games that doesn't necessarily mean the guy won't miss any games in 2014 or 2015.
UNless Nicks suffers a devastating injury he's gonna get a big long term deal. You can bank on it. He's a good player who will be free to sign anywhere. Someone will chase the shiny and hope that his nagging injuries don't carry over.
How many guys have an injury free season only to get hurt the following season? How healthy Nicks is in 2013 means next to nothing in the grand scheme of things as long as he doesn't suffer a serious injury, or course.
It's a crap shoot more often than not. No matter what happens with Nicks this season no one knows how healthy he is going to be in 2014 and beyond. Good luck trying to figure that out.
Congrats to Cruz, smart move for the team and player.
Josh in the City - WTF?
Josh in the City : 1:32 pm
that's the right dollar amount for both sides.
What's incredible about it if it's the right #s for both sides? Maybe I missed your point there?
To whomever worries now that "Nicks is gone". No, there will be cap room to re-sign or extend Nicks, so long as he isn't looking for Calvin - Fitz type dough rey me.
Nice job getting it done finally to both parties to the contract.
Yep, Nicks will have to stay healthy this year to get dream dollars. I'd imagine if he misses a few games this season, teams will factor that into any offers.
This contract sets the stage for more championships to come. The deal allows the team future flexibility within the salary cap structure. They have room to reinvest in Hakeem Nicks and JPP if they see fit to do so based on their performance and durability this season.
Mr. Mara took an unusually active role in this process early on with his statements to the media. I think it was effective but hope it is an anomaly. JR&Co played their hand very well.
Great to keep you in beloved Blue VC! See you at training camp.
The numbers just made sense for both sides
And you know he wanted to stay in NY
Sorry BBIers - no free beer
[url=http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Jason%20Pierre%20Paul&Position=43DE&Team=Giants]JPP contractual breakdown[/url]
Just guessing, but I think 2015 is a player option.
As far as Victor Crus' new deal is concerned, Jason Fitzgerald from overthecap.com has his 2013 cap number as being LOWER that the $2.879 M tender amount. He's got Cruz's cap number for this coming season as being $2,530,000 (that's a net cap savings differential of $349,000). I'll check this out again tomorrow to be sure. Here are two Cruz links:
I. "Victor Cruz Signs Extension: PFT With Contract Details" by Jason Fitzgerald from overthecap.com - July 8, 2013
II. Cruz's contractual breakdown - ( New Window )
I would guess that there may be some escalator clauses attached to the sixth year or that it may be voidable based on certain parameters being met, but an unfettered option year given to a player is not very common as far as I recall.
actually, what would be the point, why on earth would you want to a one year player option, even if you were the player, on the $ of your rookie contract at that.
Does the 2014 roster bonus apply to only the 2014 cap, the 2014-2018 caps or the 2013-2018 caps?
Considering that JPP figures to cost much more than Nicks, if it comes down to one or the other I don't think it's a contest. Sign Nicks.
Eli is 32. The time to surround him with the best possible tools (that means familiarity with both Eli and the offensive system) is now. No more wasting Eli time on getting guys acclimated.
Luckily we don't have to decide today and with JPP we have a min of 2 more years
JPP was the best player on the field at times in 2011. I can't see the Giants letting that kind of player walk. Stud pass rushers are so hard to find.
I'd rather not think about JPP just yet. We have time and Nicks is the guy to worry about. Remember, a lot of former cap killers are coming off the books soon. Tuck, Diehl, Rolle, Snee, Webster maybe Baas....we will have room to sign the next wave of stars. The transition has already begun.
The guys who the Giants truly want to keep, they keep. The only one who got away that they wanted to keep was Steve Smith, but that was partly due to the fact that he didn't give them a chance to match the Eagles offer and partly due to the uncertainty surrounding his return from injury.
And if he doesn't have a good year, health-wise, I suspect that he'd go for a 1 or 2 year extension before he'd sign a long-term deal at a lower figure.
Regarding JPP, I know I am in the minority, but I just don't have him in that phenom category yet. He was one of the best on our D last year and maybe our poor defensive performance hurt him as well but I just don't have him in Mario Williams money territory. Note, I am not saying that he would get that from someone, I just don't want that someone to be the Giants until JPP really performs this year at a minimum.
Again, i know I may be in the minority but I just don't see how losing JPP hurts all that much when the defense collectively is so porous.
My thoughts on Nicks are that the Giants should wait to see his health throughout this season before determining his value. My guess is they will do that because his health has been an issue. I agree with those who say if he has health issues again or a sub par performance season the Giants aren'r going to make him a big offer and I won't blame them.
Too early to discuss JPP.
NFL rank in points scored/allowed:
2012 Ravens: 10th/12th
2011 Giants: 9th/25th
2010 Packers: 10th/2nd
2009 Saints: 1st/20th
2008 Steelers: 20th/1st
2007 Giants: 14th/17th
2006 Colts: 2nd/23rd
2005 Steelers: 9th/4th
Average ranking: 9th/13th
While that's hardly a robust scientific analysis, I do think it lends a bit to the idea that offense has had a greater role in winning titles...particularly in the example of our two titles. Consider also that the presence of the Steelers twice in that list skews the numbers a bit as they have been a team built completely on defense in recent years.
Just curious bro...Why did you start from 2005? Was there is historical scenario I missed? Personally, I would have started from 2002, the first year of realignment when the divisions were altered, making the playoff format different then it used to be.