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Help me understand this - Barden

Gregorio : 7/14/2013 9:56 am
In week 3 last season, Ramses Barden stepped up and gained 138 receiving yards against Carolina. It seems there is so much potential with him. Why did he not get more opportunities during the 2012 season? Was he injured, or does the coaching staff just not believe in him? Barden is barely mentioned in the wide receiver conversations. I have a hard time judging players whose stats are low, (ie receiving yards) when they had little or no opportunities to perform. thanks, Greg
Carolina played off him  
UConn4523 : 7/14/2013 10:00 am : link
and virtually gave him catches. He isn't a quality NFL receiver.
He played very well against Carolina  
David in LA : 7/14/2013 10:01 am : link
but that was against a rookie corner. He really screwed us in the Eagles game right after.
surprised the Giants resigned him  
chris r : 7/14/2013 10:01 am : link
even though he's not a specials teams player. I guess you could do worse for deep WR depth.
Coaches don't believe in him  
JonC : 7/14/2013 10:02 am : link
His level of preparation and performance isn't at a level to earn consistent playing time. He's a non-factor.
why was he resigned then  
chris r : 7/14/2013 10:07 am : link
?
At least Barden knows the offense  
David in LA : 7/14/2013 10:08 am : link
maybe he'll have a better go around with a real WR's jersey number this time hah! 13's tempting fate!
Chris r  
LauderdaleMatty : 7/14/2013 10:08 am : link
Barden is injury insurance and a guy who knows the O. If everyone comes out of camp healthy zero chance IMO he makes the team.
I love how some always dismiss the Carolina game  
UberAlias : 7/14/2013 10:16 am : link
At least give the guy credit for what he does. It is not like Barden flat out sucks and is incapable of playing well without their being some reason why it was not legit. He has shown flashes at other times as well -he dominated in the Chicago preseason game last year as well.

The problem is there are certain areas in his game he has not shown consistency with, namely press coverage.

Right now we are looking at Stevie Brown and Andre Brown, both guys cut from other teams, as potential starters. It is not a given Barden is done in this league and there is a reason they brought him back -he is better than tail end of the team's WR roster.

If he were an undrafted guy instead of a 3rd round pick this place would have a much different outlook on him. The fact is, people here love undrafted guys and make anyone that shows a hint of promis to be potential superstars, and guys who are drafted high who do not live up to their draft status are made out to be worthless junk. In many cases, nother is reality.
Then only answer to me about not using him more  
mrvax : 7/14/2013 10:17 am : link
is that the coaches saw that he was not good enough to face most teams. He wasn't able to play consistently at an NFL level. How many people are?

I can't think of any reason they re-signed him unless the want their DBs to be able to practice against big receivers. It's an experiment that had a lot of upside but didn't pan out.

I'm starting to wonder about Jernigan (and Scott the RB) also.

As to this: I can't think of any reason they re-signed  
UberAlias : 7/14/2013 10:18 am : link
How about because we don't have 6 WRs who are better.
He will likely make the team  
UberAlias : 7/14/2013 10:22 am : link
Not see any real action without injury and move on. He doesn't fit into the teams long term plans, but he is probably the 5th best WR they have.
Barden was a UFA  
Buck Dharma : 7/14/2013 10:24 am : link
The other 31 teams apparently don't think very highly of Barden.
He's not even the 5th WR  
Giantology : 7/14/2013 10:25 am : link
1. Nicks
2. Cruz
3. Randle
4. Murphy
5. Jernigan

He may make it as the 6th guy purely for depth.
Ah yes, the great BBI wide receiver debates.  
BigBlueBuff : 7/14/2013 10:27 am : link
For whatever reason, most folks can't grasp that every year, the team will keep 6 or 7 receivers on the roster for the purpose of depth and that despite our fondest wishes, not all of them can be Pro Bowl caliber. Someone ALWAYS has to be depth and that someone ALWAYS seems to get picked on by BBI.
who is this BBI fellow  
chris r : 7/14/2013 10:28 am : link
?
Bottom line regardless of receiver  
Since1976 : 7/14/2013 10:30 am : link
#10 can make anyone look like a potential stud. All hail Eli.
Giantology  
UberAlias : 7/14/2013 10:30 am : link
Jernigan has shown zero at WR. Barden showed more than he has.
Barden  
stretch234 : 7/14/2013 10:32 am : link
The Nicks injury caused the Giants to lose speed on the edge. Barden helped in some games, but without Nicks, you needed to eventually get speed on the outside. Teams were collapsing in Cruz and Hixon. That is where Randle came in. Barden before and after was never more than the 4th WR and maybe 5th.

Based on that, how much production should he have. The offense last year was not a 3 WR base offense. They did very little 4 WR offense.

There are only so many snaps to go around.

Have you ever heard the coach or the QB have any issues with him





Jernigan  
Spock : 7/14/2013 10:41 am : link
What has he done that exceeds Barden?

It wan't JJ who played in that Carolina game, it was Barden. What does this tell you?
He's this roster's version of S. Moss  
BillT : 7/14/2013 10:41 am : link
He just doesn't get it. He's got no football smarts. He's a bonehead ply waiting to happen.
red zone threat  
SHO'NUFF : 7/14/2013 10:49 am : link
lol.
He is a one-dimensional WR  
SB : 7/14/2013 10:49 am : link
...height, that's it. He is not athletic, doesn't not fast, doesn't run good routes, doesn't have good hands, isn't good on special teams, and doesn't use his size to beat press corners. He's been on the roster because he is cheap. I think the Giants signed him because they need a WR for backup QBs to throw to in camp.
man, I have to proof read before hitting submit...  
SB : 7/14/2013 10:51 am : link
...I sound like a total moron.
Isn't Jernigan considered a slot WR?  
Giantology : 7/14/2013 10:56 am : link
So I'd assume he wouldn't play as an outside WR when it is between him and Barden.
He was re-signed for depth  
JonC : 7/14/2013 11:02 am : link
he's a #5-6 WR who apparently has shown enough promise and skills to be given another opportunity, but there remains a need for him to show the coaches growth in the areas I posted before.

To this point, Barden hasn't shown that he gets it.
re: Jernigan  
JonC : 7/14/2013 11:04 am : link
He's essentially still learning the pro offense and his primary utility is in the slot, for now.

Apples and oranges.

Also, let's remember the coaches see these players every day in practice, meetings, etc, they have all the info necessary while fans have a sliver of it.
JonC has it correct  
UberAlias : 7/14/2013 11:08 am : link
It is not out of the question that he eventually gets it (lots of guys get cut, move on and eventually pan out to some degree somewhere lese -as we are working on S Brown and A Brown right now), but the most likely trajectory for him is to play this season out at the tail end of our WRs, not be activated in most games as he does not play specials, not be resigned here next year, and shortly after be out of football.
It is possible Jernigan is showing something in practice  
UberAlias : 7/14/2013 11:12 am : link
we are not observing in camp or preseason, but to date I have not seen much reason to be overly optimistic.
One great game doesn't always indicate a great career  
steve in ky : 7/14/2013 11:13 am : link
Anyone remember Clint Longley?
I'd bet that Barden makes the 53-man roster initially, but after Hyno  
Optimus-NY : 7/14/2013 11:20 am : link
gets off of the PUP list (I think these rumors that Hynoski will be back for week #1 are bunk). I think when Hyno returns some time between week #7 and week #10, Barden will get the axe.

They'll just make sure that they have a WR on the Practice Squad that they can bring up to the 53-man active roster if necessary, like Brandon Collins (after he comes of the Reserve list after he completes his 4-game suspension to start the year for PEDs). I wrote about it here on my Giants cap blog about 2 weeks ago:
Here's my 2nd attempt at predicting the Giants' 53-man roster to start the 2013 season as of today
Um  
Giantsfan79 : 7/14/2013 11:26 am : link
Jernigan + return game = has been positive.

I don't care if he doesn't give the team much as a receiver. I'd rather Eli get the ball to one of the following - Nicks, Cruz, Randle, Murphy, Myers, Robinson, Wilson - options before Jernigan.

Assuming Wilson will see less return chances now that he's got a bigger RB role, Jernigan has to be near the top of the options.
I actually agree with the premise of the OP  
eclipz928 : 7/14/2013 11:27 am : link
You would like to think that, regardless of the opponent, if a young player buried on the depth chart has a break out game then at the least he would have earned himself some more opportunities in the following weeks.

Obviously, we don't see what the coaches see during practices but I think it's a well-accepted fact that some players are just "gamers" and may offer something different and significant to the team once they actually get a chance to get on the field.
Neither Nicks nor Cruz were at the OTAs  
Larry in Pencilvania : 7/14/2013 11:32 am : link
and the Giants needed a WR that knew the offense so Eli could throw to someone. Barden isn't getting a second shot but was filling a role temporarily. I don't think he will be on the team this year when camp breaks especially since he offers little on specials
Watch out for a late cut to make the team as a returner too fellas  
Optimus-NY : 7/14/2013 12:22 pm : link
Remember when the Giants picked up Chad Morton in 2005? I could see the same thing happening this year if such a player is available. The guy I have me eyes on for the Giants in that regard is Brad Smith of the Bills.
Uber  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/14/2013 12:28 pm : link
Quote:
I love how some always dismiss the Carolina game
UberAlias : 10:16 am
At least give the guy credit for what he does. It is not like Barden flat out sucks and is incapable of playing well without their being some reason why it was not legit. He has shown flashes at other times as well -he dominated in the Chicago preseason game last year as well.

The problem is there are certain areas in his game he has not shown consistency with, namely press coverage.

Right now we are looking at Stevie Brown and Andre Brown, both guys cut from other teams, as potential starters. It is not a given Barden is done in this league and there is a reason they brought him back -he is better than tail end of the team's WR roster.

If he were an undrafted guy instead of a 3rd round pick this place would have a much different outlook on him. The fact is, people here love undrafted guys and make anyone that shows a hint of promis to be potential superstars, and guys who are drafted high who do not live up to their draft status are made out to be worthless junk. In many cases, nother is reality.


Barden showed up for one game in his career, the Carolina game, which was a matter of playing a bad defense.

What other flashes did he show? Preferably other than a preseason game?

Last year we needed a WR to step up with Nicks out hurt and limited. Barden was on the field. What did he do?
Barden is not as good as the guys in front of him.....  
George from PA : 7/14/2013 12:32 pm : link
but he should be battling for a spot.

Nicks, Cruz, Randle, Murphy, are sure things....all the rest are fighting for two spot, and Barden now knows he is fighting for his NFL life.

Lack of Special teams is a big problem.....especially if we carry 3 QB's
TTH  
UberAlias : 7/14/2013 12:40 pm : link
He doesn't see any action in real games because he does not play specials so he is usually not activated. So I evalaue him based on what I see -training camp and in preseason games. He has deinitely shown flashes in both, though many on here simply will not admit it because he was a high draft pick who did not pan out. Just like Carolina game, instead of giving him credit for playing a good game it is full of excuses why it does not count. He has made plays in his limited time such as against Dallas the year before, he dominated against Chicago last preseason, has looked good to my eyes in camp. There are others, but no point in my listing as the pattern is clear -whatever flashes he does show do not count.
Barden is tall  
Ken from Flushing : 7/14/2013 12:41 pm : link
but he does not play tall. I cannot remember one catch that he has made where is height made the difference. In fact, I remember many high balls thrown to him that he just did not catch.
Basically a possession receiver  
spike : 7/14/2013 12:53 pm : link
At best. He can't run away from DBs.
My take: The standard Giants WR is 6-1 205. That is  
Marty in Albany : 7/14/2013 12:57 pm : link
the size and speed that Eli is accustomed to finding in coverage and hitting in stride. JJ is smaller and faster and Barden is bigger and slower than the standard WR and it puts them at a disadvantage running the standard plays.

Are the Giants coaches going to come up with new plays to take advantage of JJ's speed and agility, or of Barden's height and heft? ONLY if what either of them can do is a slam dunk. Said another way, Barden and JJ only have value to the team IF in a specific situation(s) Barden's size or JJ's agility will almost always beat their coverage or cause the defense to overload on their side and open up one of the other Giants receivers.

We all thought that the corner and sideline routes for Barden would be his specialty. I guess we were wrong.
I don't see  
Doomster : 7/14/2013 1:44 pm : link
Jernigan as a lock for the #5 spot....his only advantage is specials.....
Ken  
JonC : 7/14/2013 3:16 pm : link
You are correct, and that is part of his core physical shortcomings. His fundamentals in catching passes, running routes, and blocking are all below average, along with his game awareness. He tends to make a pile of mistakes when the bullets are flying.

All the above typically means said player just isn't cut out for the NFL. We shall see if he pull a 180.
for the 4 millionth time  
Dylan fan : 7/14/2013 5:03 pm : link
I don't give a shit about Barden any longer. He's not a gamer aside from preseason & the Carolina game, but for the 4 millionth time, HE DID PLAY ON KICKOFF COVERAGE TEAMS each of the 12 games he played last year & had 2 tackles. It's one thing to express an opinion no matter how inane it may be, but it drives me up a wall when people constantly misstate or ignore FACTS in support of an opinion, & just about every single BBIer who hates Barden with a passion (& there are LOTS of them) does this in regard to STs.
There are so many players in the NFL that never get a chance  
nomad1986 : 7/14/2013 5:22 pm : link
Barden has never gotten a chance. We have no idea if he's any good or not. But saying the coaches don't think he's any good makes me laugh. You mean the coaches that wanted to cut Cruz before the 2011 season but Reese wouldn't let them? The coaches that played Brandon Stokley over Cruz? The coaches that screamed in Cruz's face on national TV when he did get a play or two? The coaches that put Ohara back in the lineup when he couldn't play anymore and cost the Giants a playoff spot? The coaches that put Diehl back in the lineup last year and probably cost the Giants anther playoff spot? The only reason Cruz ever saw the field was because every other WR was injured. They had no one left. When Barden got that same no one left chance in NC he did what any NFL receiver will do if Eli Manning is his QB. Then he screwed up the Eagle game and that was the end of his career. We have no idea if he's any good or not. But we know Jerry Reese thinks he is.
Barden  
Blue Blood : 7/14/2013 5:26 pm : link
will probably not make the final roster. He was signed because they need bodies for camp..
BBI was begging for the Giants to draft this guy.  
81_Great_Dane : 7/14/2013 6:11 pm : link
But hell hath no fury like BBI after a draft pick doesn't excel.
hes a slow, stiff, build up  
Neverend : 7/14/2013 6:11 pm : link
guy who once he gets contacted, loses all of his stride frequency and has to stop&start all over again (which takes forever) which adds to his struggles against press coverage since he has no lateral quickness due to his size already

He tries to be this fineese wideout. trying to be slippery and use hip manipulation. Its utterly pathetic and fucking stupid. Fucking use your size and knock people off the line of scrimmage with your length, reach, size, and big hands (bigger than nicks' per combine). No, he tries to be fancy with his releases like hes some 5'10 slot guy.

I dont think hes ever going to overcome his lack of speed. Its too glaring of a flaw. If he doesnt get contacted at the line and runs in a straight line, eventually he'll get his long strides going at full speed. If not? Hes useless. Hes just lacks football attributes despite being somewhat of an athletic specimen in theory. He reminds me a lot of Jacobs, being someone you're not. Barden needs to embrace his limitations and change his playing demeanor along with his style. Focus on being physical and technical coming off the line of scrimmage, he cant stop-and-start at all because of his long legs. Dont wanna give up on him but its what now, year 5? He is what he is
If Barden showed fundamentals as well as  
ColHowPepper : 7/14/2013 6:41 pm : link
JonC does in his analysis of him, Barden would be a roster lock. He not only doesn't play tall in games that count (Carolina was not defending him tightly, if at all), he plays small. He WILTED like the Wicked Witch of the West vs. Philly.
It's pretty simple  
jnoble : 7/14/2013 9:06 pm : link
He's been on the team for multiple seasons now and had several opportunites to step up and shine. If he was that good he would've showed it by now and he wouldn't have gotten cut.
thanks  
Gregorio : 7/14/2013 10:26 pm : link
everyone for your replies. I learned a lot.

Greg
The CB  
Route 9 in LEH : 7/15/2013 8:04 pm : link
for carolina was always lined up 5-10 yards off the ball and barden made his catches against "off and soft" coverage, he didn't have to beat press coverage....something hes notoriously known for not being able to beat during his entire limited play-making career
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