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Justin Tuck...you're wrong, dead wrong

Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 9:34 pm
I'm sorry. I'm not an NFL DE, I have not won two Super Bowls, this is not my daily job, but god dammit Justin you're wrong about how to defend the read option and I can only guess it's because your DC is a hack.

You don't read the tackle if you think it's a run of any form, that is NOT your concern. You maintain outside leverage and you keep your outside arm free, and key on the QB, 100 times out of 100. If it's a dive, you don't jump it, you let your triangle clean it up. JPP keyed on a dive last year in Washington and it cost us the game as RGIII ran 50 yards around his side on a crucial play. This is not a typical pro offense, you do NOT NOT NOT read the fucking tackle if you see the pistol and suspect the run. A down block?? Who cares? Let him down block, and have you jump inside, you'll be left hanging by RGIII or whoever the running QB is. You have backside LB or S help? Guess what, they get a pulling guard to contend with or a crack from a WR.

This is fundamentally wrong wrong wrong wrong for playing the read option, it is dead fucking wrong. Our players not being sure of A) what they should do or B) why they should be doing it, is reason #1 why Fewell should go to fucking high school practice and learn to slow down the option. Cal it the pistol, read option, spread option, I don't care, it's a QB based triple option where you KEY ON THE QB every time as a DE. This is football 101 and shockingly it's convoluted by overly wrought over-analysis. You are the key in the play, you are the edge, you are the table setter and you are jumping the dive if the OT blocks down??? JFC, no wonder we gave up 125 yards on the ground last year.

I can hear you already.."I think Justin Tuck knows more than you do fatso". Sorry, he's wrong, just flat wrong and unless someone figures this out, say good night to our running game improving.
Wrong...WRONG!!! - ( New Window )
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And I never said he avoids the block from a downblock  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 10:21 pm : link
.
Joey: I think you have a valid point....  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/28/2013 10:24 pm : link
...but on the two plays where Osi and JPP get sucked inside, what the hell are Boley (first lowlight) and Phillips (second lowlight) doing?
I just think maybe you're reading too much into a comment.  
arcarsenal : 7/28/2013 10:25 pm : link
We were far from the only team that had an issue with him last year. They dumped a 31 spot on the eventual Super Bowl Champion Ravens the week after they played us. DC's around the league were scrambling for ways to slow this shit down once it started rolling and if RGIII wasn't playing on a leg and a half until the half became completely unusable against the Seahawks, who knows if anyone really would have.

I'm sure you know more about the technical stuff but sometimes I think this stuff is just more complicated than most of us even realize.

It's easy to key in on all of the options that were kept by him and run around the edge for huge gains, but how many times did Morris abuse us up the gut on dive plays because the guys on the edge waited too long to commit and then were too late?

These things are always like chess in the NFL. The read option guys jumped ahead last year but now it's the DC's turns to even things up. I'm sure most of these guys spent a TON of time this offseason trying to figure out how to do it. The blueprint will be out soon enough.
Unreal, almost mind boggling  
PaulN : 7/28/2013 10:29 pm : link
Joey takes one comment and then rants on, even though as was pointed out, they scored less against the Giants then any other team in the last 7 weeks, but go ahead and call anyone who says you are overreacting an idiot, that makes you right for sure. The day you know a tenth of what Tuck know then you can speak, but you don't. Its comical to read this shit.
Tuck played like a Hall of Famer  
Phil in LA : 7/28/2013 10:40 pm : link
for a few years and in two Super Bowls, but I haven't seen that guy around in the regular season for some time.
The Giants have an advantage  
JohnF : 7/28/2013 10:43 pm : link
since they don't play the Redskins till December. There will be plenty of film by then on Washington, and how teams are playing the Pistol this year.

Tuck should see that, and I'm sure the whole defense will make adjustments based on what's working and what's not working. It's also possible that RGIII will be banged up by then, and we may not see much Pistol at all...just conventional Pro Formations.
Joey...  
Dan in the Springs : 7/28/2013 10:48 pm : link
I think you're misunderstanding Tuck. Give him a little credit. Clearly he talks about reading the QB. He specifically mentions it every single time. But he definitely has to read the tackle too. He doesn't just 100% ignore what the tackle is doing - he's reading the tackle to understand what the offense is or may be trying to do.

Look at his later example, when he explains that the OT is going to look for a LB to block, and he explains that he needs to continue to shuffle to fill the space the tackle leaves open. This means he is reading the tackle to understand how to best fulfill his assignment, which is given in advance. Of course, he then reads the QB to understand how to continue his assignment.

You act like he was on the video explaining that he can just ignore the QB - that he doesn't need to read the QB at all. That's simply not the case.

Clearly he understands that the key to stopping this type of offensive scheme is assignment football, and everyone is aware of the gaps and their responsibilities within the assignment. Is that a problem for you?
Joey  
frankmihs : 7/28/2013 11:00 pm : link
I think the problem is you are explaining the technique for a DE in a standard 4-4 defense which as you know we do not play. Stopping any option offense is all about discipline and assignment football.

For example in the triple option the quarterback is reading the 3 technique for the dive and the DE for the pitch. To defend that in the 4-4. I used to have the DT ALWAYS tackle the fullback/running back (if they have the ball or not. The DE squeezes if the OT blocks down. (IF the OT blocks down the MLB has to fill hard). In this case the DE is supposed to destroy the quarterback (again, if he has the ball or pitches it). The outside linebacker/SS will then have the pitch men with the CB squeezing from the outside in and the FS filling the alley. This is how many high school defenses defend the option.
However, we have many different fronts/schemes and assignments vary depending on the front and coverage. NFL offenses are much to complex and would be a huge advantage to them if they knew that every time they run read option, we would always play it the same way. The defensive theory is the same ( assignment football), but the assignments change depending on the defensive call.

Hope this helps.
I'm no expert on the read option...  
Torrag : 7/28/2013 11:14 pm : link
...but I can't stand Fewell. When have the Giants stayed with a DC who posted bottom of the league defensive rankings in back to back seasons? The moment Spags was cut loose in N.O. his phone would have been ringing. Perry would have been history if I was Mr. Mara.

I don't like his style. I don't like trading yards and time of possession playing for the turnover. It tires your defense and eventually as the season drags on attrition and injury take their toll. You have to dictate, be aggressive and get the fuck off the field on 3rd down.
we didnt lose because of RG3  
mattlawson : 7/28/2013 11:40 pm : link
we lost because our D couldnt stop alfred morris.
That 17 was the second time around for the Giants.  
wgenesis123 : 7/28/2013 11:51 pm : link
Have to look and see if Dallas and Philly did better the second game.
Dallas was 10 points better second time around, Philly 4 points better  
wgenesis123 : 7/29/2013 12:01 am : link
Hardly enough to suggest a trend and its only one stat (points) but I like that each team that played them twice improved on points allowed.
There is an article about Stanford's DC Derek Mason  
Daniel in MI : 7/29/2013 12:08 am : link
Who did a good job on Oregon's read option on the new MMQB site. Mason says a 3-4 look is best for dealing with the unaccounted for E gap the option creates. He seems to agree with Joey. From the article:

Mason, whose arm seems to be surgically attached to the dry-erase marker, draws a straight line signifying an instant rush from a defensive end—the unblocked one opposite the tight end side of the formation—to the quarterback. If the unblocked end charges in this fashion, and if you don’t have an inside linebacker or safety moving into the vacated gap, good luck stopping the read-option.

This hard-charging end is left unblocked for a reason. He’s like a basketball player trying to defend a pick-and-roll by himself. In other words, he’s powerless. If he comes at the quarterback, the running back takes the handoff. If the end angles his shoulders toward the dive back, the QB pulls the ball back from the handoff (also called the mesh point) and takes off around the corner, forcing the end to turn back and give chase.

Mason depicts a solution on the whiteboard, showing the unblocked end first going upfield, at no one, and then squeezing down on the running back once he gets the ball. The idea is to let the quarterback make a decision without giving him all the information he wants.


He says the big issue is, in an option, the QB wants to make a fast read. But if instead of crashing in the DE goes upfield a bit then the QB doesn't get his fast read and so if he hands off then NOW the DE can crash down. Don't give him his fast read.
The Article from TheMMQB - ( New Window )
Re-looking at that  
Daniel in MI : 7/29/2013 12:46 am : link
It also kind of sounds like what Tuck says he's trying to do, depending on how you interpret what he said. - the video crashes my iPad so I'll have to check it out later.

Part of the issue is RG3 is very good in the mesh at hiding it so it's tough to read. Part is his speed, he only needs a half step to beat us. And third as others pointed out, the middle of our D was way too soft. Hence our open LB competition and an emphasis on size at DT. (Welcome, Mr. Hanky!)

So, Joey, when you say key on the QB, what exactly are you saying? Attack him (whether he hands off or not) as if you expect him to keep it ? Or read the mesh attacking upfield like Mason says? Explain it to me like I'm Trent...
Joey to Tuck  
Jon from PA : 7/29/2013 5:39 am : link
ummm...you're doin' it wrong!



Joey I agree, when i played ball ( safety) the DC constantly  
gtt350 : 7/29/2013 6:22 am : link
was screaming at the DE's to maintain their area. i never heard of a DE reading the tackle always the QB and this was HS
Did you watch the whole thing?  
Kevin_in_Pgh : 7/29/2013 7:15 am : link
He was very clear that what he does depends on his assignment. If the RB is his guy, he does one thing. If he has the QB, he does something else. As it says in the MMQB article, it's all about accounting for each possible part of the play. There's no one thing each person should do.
Also from the article  
Kevin_in_Pgh : 7/29/2013 7:17 am : link
"The idea is to let the quarterback make a decision without giving him all the information he wants."

Tuck clearly talks about this - setting a new line of scrimmage, playing games so the QB doesn't know his real assignment, etc.
Not an expert by any means  
Jon from PA : 7/29/2013 7:21 am : link
but it looks like Tuck MAY know what he is talking about...
Quote:
So the Packers didn't stop in Texas. In general, off-seasons are always a time for coaches — high school, college and pro — to share ideas. When outside linebackers coach Kevin Greene met with Illinois State assistant head coach/defensive line coach Spence Nowinsky, they talked read-option. Nowinsky's message was that the option is a progression of reads.

First, read the offensive tackle. Then, the near running back. Then, the tight end.

This third read, Nowinsky said, caused problems for Green Bay

link - ( New Window )
Joey  
djstat : 7/29/2013 7:21 am : link
There is more then one way to play D. End. Maintaining outside is an option. Spilling or "wrong shouldering" is another way which does not involve maintaining the outside. As for defending the option, considering the QB is going to option the defensive end, Tuck probably has an idea as to what he is walking about. He can read the tackle while maintaining outside leverage. One has nothing to do with the other.
Good article, Jon  
Kevin_in_Pgh : 7/29/2013 7:38 am : link
Thanks!
Without taking sides, I have a question: If we have an option play  
Marty in Albany : 7/29/2013 8:06 am : link
and the choice of play is up to the QB, how would the OT know what the QB is going to do? I would ASSUME that the QB is reading the defense and making a decision on what he (the QB) sees. Therefore, keying on the OT would not seem to make sense.

Oh, wait. Is the issue whether or not you key on the OT  
Marty in Albany : 7/29/2013 8:16 am : link
or the QB to decide if it is going to be an option play or a DIFFERENT type of play? The OT is going to know that, so keying on him might be useful. Thanks in advance.
Nobody knows what the QB is going to do  
Jon from PA : 7/29/2013 8:17 am : link
I think what some are missing here us Tucks said the FIRST key is on the OT. That's just going to tell him where to line up and weather or not he has to shuffle down to close the gap a little. After that it all depends on what play was called (i.e whether the LB or DE has the QB). That's what I got out of it anyway. It's a progression based on whatever the play call is.
I have to agree with Joey in VA. Especially on the point that  
Victor in CT : 7/29/2013 8:27 am : link
Fewell is a tool. (pardon the poor poetry)
I played DE  
NNJ Tom : 7/29/2013 8:34 am : link
We played against several triple option teams (including my own which was outstanding at it).

As the DE at the point of attack, you have 1 responsibility and that is to ATTACK the QB. Make him pitch the ball. Put your helmet in his chest and plant him.

It isn't very complicated.
Been reading all  
Mike fr Warwick : 7/29/2013 8:38 am : link
off season various coaches from High school college and pros.
See the link for Mike Pattine the former Jet defensive assistant now Bills DC.

What I have discovered is there is a great variety of ways to attack this offense. From changes in fronts switching of gap responsibilties safety positioning.

Have actually come up with a couple of my own. Would like to more about what gray reads are and how to create them.
forgot  
Mike fr Warwick : 7/29/2013 8:39 am : link
the Lonk.
Here. - ( New Window )
NNJ Tom  
Jon from PA : 7/29/2013 8:49 am : link
did you read the link I posted...it addresses just that and no, it's not that simple...

Quote:
The No. 1 problem for the Packers in San Francisco, scheme-wise, is the No. 1 problem for all NFL teams facing the option. Defensive ends and outside linebackers are trained and paid millions of dollars — or, in Clay Matthews' case, $13 million per year — to rush the passer. To storm upfield. To stay in blood-thirsty, vertical attack mode.

And the option exploits this. As the quarterback slides down the line, a split-second of patience makes those hard-charging pass rushers pay.

The option demands a more horizontal mentality.

Joey,  
Randy in CT : 7/29/2013 8:52 am : link
I with JT on this. He understood and described his assignments given all the variables. You pipe down.
another good breakdown  
Jon from PA : 7/29/2013 9:00 am : link
of defending the read option...
link - ( New Window )
Its really an impossible task for the DE.  
barens : 7/29/2013 9:11 am : link
If the opposing team has right QB, like the Redskins or the 49ers, there aren't many or any sure fire ways to stop it. People want to say, just have your defensive end hit the QB every time, but offenses aren't just giving DE's free reign to smack the QB, often they are pulling there weakside guard to get a shot on the defensive end, and that's really been all it has taken.

The Chris Brown article from Grantland is the best read on this  
Kyle : 7/29/2013 9:26 am : link
Quote:
Now, defenses must use a variety of tactics against read-option plays. The most popular changeup is the "scrape " or "gap exchange," in which the backside defensive end and linebacker swap responsibilities — the end crashes for the running back while the linebacker "scrapes" for the quarterback. When the quarterback sees the end crash, his read is to pull the ball and keep it, a choice that will result in him running directly into a waiting linebacker.



That second player doesn't even have to be a linebacker. Alabama, which has won three national championships in four years and boasts the best defense in college football, constantly varies the defenders assigned to the quarterback. When Alabama defensive coordinator Kirby Smart gives a "force" call, he explains, that leads to a gap replacement with the defensive end. "The quarterback sees the crashing end and pulls the ball," Smart says. "We roll the free safety down to the line of scrimmage and he has the quarterback." And all this varies based on the opponent. "If the quarterback is a better runner, we make him give to the tailback," said Smart. "If the tailback is the better runner, we give the force call, and the defensive end crashes inside and makes the quarterback pull the ball."
My understanding is that the unblocked DE  
Section331 : 7/29/2013 9:29 am : link
is responsible for whichever player, QB or RB, takes the inside position, leaving the player going wide to the OLB. I agree with Joey about not keying on the OT, but that is only AFTER recognizing that it is a zone read play.
everybody is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
I Love Clams Casino : 7/29/2013 10:12 am : link
you tackle the guy with the ball before he gets very far....

Pat Kirwan agrees with joey  
jlukes : 7/29/2013 10:16 am : link
Said the OLB in 3/4 or a DE in a 4/3 should attack the mesh point (where the RB and QB come together for the fake or the handoff) regardless of what the line is doing. It forces the offense to react rather than letting the offense dictate to the defense.
what happens when our DTs and LBs cant stop the middle runs  
mattlawson : 7/29/2013 10:52 am : link
and our DEs have the hardest job of all in containing RGII and the RB when they bounce it outside... it's easier said than done.

This year with a new crop of DT's hopefully they are a little more hard nosed in plugging up the middle so we can actually get some plays made from LBs and DEs.
Mason disagrees with Joey  
nygirlie : 7/29/2013 10:53 am : link
And so does Tuck, obviously.

Mason says the QB needs to make a fast read. By two-gapping, as Tuck said, this does not give the QB the info he needs, and so he delays.

Or makes a random decision which negates the whole concept of the read offence. That concept is 11 on 11 i.e. letting the unblocked DE take himself out of he play.

The delay plays into the hands of the defence. The OL cannot stay on their blocks forever.
and this is where DaMantre Moore's quickness  
mattlawson : 7/29/2013 10:54 am : link
will be a huge asset. As good as Tuck can be playing the run sometimes - I think letting the young bucks take a turn against the Redskins might be best assuming a guy like Moore continues to improve and not get injured this camp.
course...  
mattlawson : 7/29/2013 10:55 am : link
we dont play them till December so - -lots of time.
Well, that cleared things up for me!  
SwirlingEddie : 7/29/2013 11:04 am : link
1. Read the block of the OT
2. Ignore the OT
3. Hit the QB!
4. Maintain outside leverage
5. Read the mesh point
6. Crash down
7. Form a new line of scrimmage
8. Switch it up to confuse the QB
9. Did I mention hit the QB!?

I guess if defending this offense was simple and obvious then teams wouldn't be struggling so much with it.
Damn, I always thought Tuck should read the slot receiver  
PatersonPlank : 7/29/2013 11:08 am : link
Boy was I way off
Damn all of these keys  
The Turk : 7/29/2013 11:29 am : link
On the first read option have Tuck or JPP or both take a straight path directly into and thru RGIII. If he still has the ball good, we stopped the play. If he doesn't too bad, he gets knoicked on his ass. And then on the second read option, do the same damn thing. Constantly pound the QB with or without the ball if he is on the edge or attacking the LOS. Get a late hit call - who cares. The goal needs to be to make the QB take hits.
Like Mike Tomlin said  
eclipz928 : 7/29/2013 12:06 pm : link
the biggest key to defending the option is to make sure you put a hit on the QB every time - then you'll see how often a team is willing to put their QB at risk with those plays.

But besides that, I think I'll trust Justin Tuck above most people on how to play the DE position.
Making a point of emphasis to hit the QB every time  
Kyle : 7/29/2013 12:07 pm : link
will do wonders for the opposing offense, gashing through cutback lanes, racking up late hit flags, and producing more points on the board.
The difference between how Kirby Smart is able to  
barens : 7/29/2013 12:21 pm : link
defend these types of offenses, is that he's not playing against NFL caliber QB's. Once that safety bites, that's when players like RG3 kills you with their arm.
QB is a regular ball carrier in those situations  
eclipz928 : 7/29/2013 12:27 pm : link
They don't have the same protections from hits with the rules.

What makes the option effective is the indecisiveness that it causes players along the line. The slowed reaction is what normally opens up big plays for the offense.

Instructing the appropriate players to read and attack the QB will undoubtedly leave the defense open for big plays against them on occasion, but it will also stop a lot plays at its inception with the residual effect of getting free shots at the QB.
the triple option  
area junc : 7/29/2013 12:50 pm : link
isn't the read option the redskins are running....rg3, colin k., cam, they are very rarely pitch guys

the QB/pitch man concepts are not what u r dealing with in the NFL
area  
Joey in VA : 7/30/2013 10:34 am : link
Wrong, it's exactly what they are running. The "Read" is the QB's job, in this case he's got the option to pitch or throw or hit the FB/HB on the dive. You are forcing the defense to show its hand and a fast QB can gash you up front if you hesitate.

The read spread, pistol whatever you want to call it is the triple option out of a shotgun with more passing possibilities replacing the dive fake or adding to it.

On these plays, the QB is "reading" the defense and making a decision, essentially he is forcing them to commit to something and then trying to exploit where they aren't. If your defense waits to read it's dead against this, period. If the DE is crashing inside, outside contain is non existent. You have someone to attack the pitch man and the QB. The pitch man can be the WR on the outside who the QB lobs it to if the man covering him commits to the QB. On the play side, against this formation you will lose if your DE plays paddy cake and tries to read too much. There IS NO TIME to make that read and stop the QB when you're a 275lb DE trying to catch one of the fastest players on the field. You limit his reads, in other words, force him to get rid of the ball by attacking him, not waiting for him.

And why did Alfred Morris kill us?? Absolutely no gap integrity, people not knowing what gap to attack or what player to key on because DTs and LBs are reading,the DE is reading and if anyone of them reads wrongly, you can't stop the run. So again, if the DE is keying on the QB and as a LB and DT and S, you know that, you can focus on attacking the RB or defending the WR/TE in your area and squeeze the play options down.

I realize we aren't running a 4-4 but that gap integrity HAS to be what we use against this front, period.
...  
nygirlie : 7/30/2013 10:51 am : link
vg thread
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