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Justin Tuck...you're wrong, dead wrong

Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 9:34 pm
I'm sorry. I'm not an NFL DE, I have not won two Super Bowls, this is not my daily job, but god dammit Justin you're wrong about how to defend the read option and I can only guess it's because your DC is a hack.

You don't read the tackle if you think it's a run of any form, that is NOT your concern. You maintain outside leverage and you keep your outside arm free, and key on the QB, 100 times out of 100. If it's a dive, you don't jump it, you let your triangle clean it up. JPP keyed on a dive last year in Washington and it cost us the game as RGIII ran 50 yards around his side on a crucial play. This is not a typical pro offense, you do NOT NOT NOT read the fucking tackle if you see the pistol and suspect the run. A down block?? Who cares? Let him down block, and have you jump inside, you'll be left hanging by RGIII or whoever the running QB is. You have backside LB or S help? Guess what, they get a pulling guard to contend with or a crack from a WR.

This is fundamentally wrong wrong wrong wrong for playing the read option, it is dead fucking wrong. Our players not being sure of A) what they should do or B) why they should be doing it, is reason #1 why Fewell should go to fucking high school practice and learn to slow down the option. Cal it the pistol, read option, spread option, I don't care, it's a QB based triple option where you KEY ON THE QB every time as a DE. This is football 101 and shockingly it's convoluted by overly wrought over-analysis. You are the key in the play, you are the edge, you are the table setter and you are jumping the dive if the OT blocks down??? JFC, no wonder we gave up 125 yards on the ground last year.

I can hear you already.."I think Justin Tuck knows more than you do fatso". Sorry, he's wrong, just flat wrong and unless someone figures this out, say good night to our running game improving.
Wrong...WRONG!!! - ( New Window )
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Joey in VA figured out what the NFL hasn't.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/28/2013 9:36 pm : link
.
Deep breath  
Giantology : 7/28/2013 9:37 pm : link
.
really?  
robbieballs2003 : 7/28/2013 9:37 pm : link
What do you think Tuck should read?
TTH  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 9:38 pm : link
Laugh it up fuzzball, laugh it up. We'll see what happens if our DEs keep keying on fucking dives against those offenses. How about instead of being a wiseass you offer your opinion or is that too much thought for late on a Sunday?
THE FUCKING QB  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 9:39 pm : link
JFC am I the only person on this board who has actually listened when a football coach spoke? ALWAYS key on the QB when you read the option. Period..that's it.
I would not try to unravel an offensive system.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 7/28/2013 9:46 pm : link
I freely admit I don't have the knowledge.
Joey  
robbieballs2003 : 7/28/2013 9:46 pm : link
With the read option it depends on the defense called. A DE will read the Tackle. You don't diagnose plays by looking in the back field. You diagnose plays by reading the OL.

In case you forgot, Morris killed us last year because we didn't squeeze down. If there is a down block I am having my DE fly down the line of scrimmage and take away the first option. I will have my safety, corner and OLB flow to the QB. If you don't like that then you have to cheat down with your safety and have them take away the inside run. The problem with that is you take away the aggressiveness of your DEs by having them basically timid.

Either way, a 4-3 defense is not ideal for a read option offense. Your triangle cannot stop the read option when the QB hands the ball off because the OT is cracking down on one of your LBs. The strong side DT will get doubled while one OL will release to the LB.
It was a trick!  
SoDev : 7/28/2013 9:48 pm : link
He was setting the skins up for the Dec. 1st game, but JOEY has to go and let the cat out the bag. Thanks a lot Joey!
I get this weird sense  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 9:49 pm : link
That you think Justin Tuck is wrong.
The Redskins had a Week 10 bye last year...  
arcarsenal : 7/28/2013 9:51 pm : link
These were their point totals the final 7 Weeks of the regular season:

31, 38, 17, 31, 38, 27, 28

The Giants were responsible for the 17.. and one of their TD's came on a complete fucking fluke.

But.. yeah, I guess our DC has no idea how to defend the read option but everyone else's does.
Also  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 9:51 pm : link
He made it pretty clear that he reads the Tackle first and then reads the QB when he holds his position. Seems like you took this a little too far for no reason.
What's weird is  
SwirlingEddie : 7/28/2013 9:51 pm : link
they were doing a drill today, I think with the LBs (but may have been secondary), where they were simulating the mesh point and the backers had to read the ball and take the player with the ball. They weren't playing a fixed man or a gap, they were playing the ball. Seemed a little odd to me but I'm far from an expert.
The Black Unicorn  
Vin R. : 7/28/2013 9:53 pm : link
Is going to be upset with this post
in that offense...I suspect outside contain....is for the Lb'ers  
George from PA : 7/28/2013 9:55 pm : link
Morris killed us inside and primary reason why we lost....and also why RGIII was able to run outside.
26 seconds in  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 9:55 pm : link
Watch Osi read the down block...
WRONG! - ( New Window )
My uneducated opinion....  
kinard : 7/28/2013 9:56 pm : link
on the read option in the NFL is this:

last year everyone was fascinated with the QBs (Wilson, Kapernick and RG III...but look at the lead backs (Morris, Lynch and Gore) and tell me that the RBs weren't a major reason why the read-option was such a success.

I mean, we're talking about three of the best RBs in the NFL.

Forget RGIII, the Giants better figure out a way to stop Morris or they're going to be in big trouble.

Keep an athletic LB spying the QB (J. Williams) and everyone else follow the ball.

It's the Belichickian philosophy.....
Joey  
robbieballs2003 : 7/28/2013 9:57 pm : link
Why is Osi wrong? You have no idea what the defense call was.
1:31 in watch JPP  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 9:58 pm : link
READ THE DOWN BLOCK!!!!
Link - ( New Window )
This rambling was so unneccessary  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 9:59 pm : link
Tuck clearly said that once he reads the Tackle he sets position to where he's not too deep inside but not too far outside and reads the QB. Holy shit this was useless.
Robbie  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 10:01 pm : link
The idea...do you not see this yet, the very concept is WRONG. How hard is that to get dude?
1:45 watch  
moespree : 7/28/2013 10:01 pm : link
HEY YOU IN FRONT, SIT DOWN

Oh wait a minute...wrong thread.
Joey  
robbieballs2003 : 7/28/2013 10:02 pm : link
watch Boley and Blackburn just standing there and not attacking anything. If Osi says home then he hands it off up the gut and it is a huge gain. If Osi takes away the first option then there needs to be outside support.

Your thinking is wrong because you think they play one defense. Players switch responsibility all the time. You are right that there needs to be a contain guy. Where you are wrong is thinking it is always the DEs responsibility.
AGF  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 10:02 pm : link
No idiot, he said he reads the tackle, which is wrong. I'm sorry you can't grasp this, maybe you should go pop in your Jersey Shore mix tape and leave the football to football people. K thanx bye.
Please continue watching  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 10:03 pm : link
...please, I beg you, all of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gCCEp0lQF8&feature=player_detailpage&t=100 - ( New Window )
Tuck  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 10:04 pm : link
"Then you don't want to create space so he's going down here (the OT cutting inside) so now I'm creating a new line of scrimmage, but not too far up because then you create seams and not too far down because then you have guys like RG3 that's gonna outrun you all day to the corner." He then later on says on how you have to be in a neutral position so you can go either way.

Jesus fucking Christ...
kinard  
lalalalala : 7/28/2013 10:04 pm : link

the problem is if you overkey the backs, now you're vunerable in the middle of the field and maybe over the top.

what makes these offenses effective is the QB's being able to throw the ball. those are three pretty good passing QB's, even if you tethered them to the C so they couldn't run away.

if they had a bad D1 QB who throws the ball like a shot-put, the offense would be little more than a curiosity
I agree with Joey  
Bino5 : 7/28/2013 10:04 pm : link
Washington took big advantage of the Giants reading their usual OL keys. When the QB's read is the backside DE turning in or stepping down and the DE does so when the Tackle or TE blocks down then you have a big problem.
Joey  
robbieballs2003 : 7/28/2013 10:05 pm : link
I still don't think you get it. There are responsibilities on defense. If our DEs crash down it is the OLB's responsibility to have contain.
Joey's passion is persuasive,  
CT Charlie : 7/28/2013 10:05 pm : link
but Arc's numbers are persuasiver.
joey  
mattlawson : 7/28/2013 10:06 pm : link
did we meet at Mulligan's in 2009 for the Carolina opener? Is your buddy a Chicago fan?
Robbie  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 10:06 pm : link
I don't know how to say this any plainer, so I will say it the same way. The DE has TO WATCH THE QB, he is the key in this play 100% of the time, there is no..what did the MLB do?..what did the OLB do? In this set, there is no time to think about that, this is not pocket passing NFL stuff, this is a QB who runs 4.4 killing you by himself because he knows what keys you read and your defensive coordinator is not thinking he is just regurgitating.

Trust me robbie, I know you're a smart dude, I know you get football but for the love of all that is holy TRUST me when I tell you that the DE play side is the #1 key to stopping this popgun offense and we still don't have the fundamentals right. I said my piece, I know my stance, I know how to defend an option and I provided unabashed video evidence of WHY reading the OT is wrong against this set. Good night ladies, have fun arguing about being wrong because you all are.
Of course he gets it  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 10:07 pm : link
He's the "football people". Instead of wasting your time making this post that was completely wrong about what he said, you should of been cleaning your cheetoh stained shirts from analyzing all these cold hard youtube highlight tapes of our DEs against the read option.
maybe it was 2010  
mattlawson : 7/28/2013 10:08 pm : link
but based on your rant I have a feeling we met. you kept screaming "get to the ball!" when our LBs were constantly out of position to stop a run.
I should add I do not think reading the QB or the mesh point is the  
Bino5 : 7/28/2013 10:08 pm : link
answer. I think you have to attack the read option by understanding what the offense is reading and force the QB's decision.
The thing is, you're right  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 10:08 pm : link
But you're completely wrong on claiming what Tuck said. He couldn't have made it more obvious that he says he reads the QB once he sets his own line of scrimmage and stays in a neutral position in case they go inside or RG3 goes outside.
Don't kid yourselves  
LauderdaleMatty : 7/28/2013 10:09 pm : link
about how deficient our DTs were, over all last year. I don't care what offense the Giants had huge issues stopping the run. I feel a lot better with Jenkins and the addition of Hankins I think the middle being much more stout helps.
AGF  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 10:10 pm : link
Dude, are you stupid or just slow? Justin Tuck and every other DE in the NFL cannot react that quickly and create a neutral position. You have to close down the run lanes for a QB this fast. What you are repeating is wrong, Justin is wrong, this is the formula for 90% of NFL QBs, I get that, trust me I do.

I don't mean to be a dick, apologies sincerely, but this is a very specific opponent and offense it requires a very specific approach and maintaining "a neutral" stance...will kill you against this offense and it killed us last year. Please, I am begging you, forget that this is 90% of NFL QBs...I am speaking specifically about RGIII and this offense. Tuck is right, for every opponent but one and O'Hara was asking about this and Tuck was wrong. Dead dead wrong.
Joey  
robbieballs2003 : 7/28/2013 10:10 pm : link
Watch the clip from your first link. At 2:16 left in the third watch what happens when Osi doesn't crash down. It is not as simple as you make it out to be.
That's why you read the OT first  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 10:13 pm : link
If the OT goes for a downblock and he reads it and avoids it, he can set his position right away and then focus on the QB. There's no way he can worry about the QB without worrying about the OT first as a DE. None.
I agree with arc too that it's overstated  
lalalalala : 7/28/2013 10:13 pm : link

I think given the three choices, it's best to die the death of 1,000 papercuts. it gives more chances for things to go wrong. and we caught a brutal break on something that DID go wrong.

the ideal way to deal with this offense is to injure the QB. no one is going to outright say it, but that's how you handle it.
arc  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 10:14 pm : link
We lost to the Redskins because of an exploit RGIII was shown and we did not fix. O'Hara asked again today and Tuck answered how JPP and Osi answered when that one trick pony kicked our ass on MNF.

I am talking about a very specific team against our very aggressive ends and how we can stop it. Again, this is very much focused on how to stop RGIII and we still don't get how if Justin Tuck's answer is how our DEs will play the read option this year. Sorry again for blowing up or being a dick, it's me and I get that way but there is no excuse for name calling....to all I apologize for that, but I am 100000% sure we are hosed if our DEs play that way against RGIII.
Tuck isn't reading the OT to jump the play  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 10:14 pm : link
He reads the OT so he can set his position. I think you're reading too much into one thing he said and then ignoring the rest.
also  
robbieballs2003 : 7/28/2013 10:15 pm : link
Watch Tuck crash down at 11:38 left in the fourth. They playaction but the inside run is stuffed and there is someone on RGIII. He happened to throw it that time but we did have someone there.
AGF  
Joey in VA : 7/28/2013 10:16 pm : link
IF HE Reads it an avoids it??? A downblock from an OT doesn't touch the DE, it's the OT crashing on the DT to double team inside, so...you don't get to play anymore. Thanks though, again no hard feelings but what you just described in a downblock is not what an OT down blocking is..at all.
He never said he he read the OT to jump the play was my point  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 10:18 pm : link
He reads the OT so he can set position and set his own line of scrimmage, which is exactly what you want out of your DE against RG3.
And I never said he avoids the block from a downblock  
AnotherGiantsFan : 7/28/2013 10:21 pm : link
.
Joey: I think you have a valid point....  
Big Blue Blogger : 7/28/2013 10:24 pm : link
...but on the two plays where Osi and JPP get sucked inside, what the hell are Boley (first lowlight) and Phillips (second lowlight) doing?
I just think maybe you're reading too much into a comment.  
arcarsenal : 7/28/2013 10:25 pm : link
We were far from the only team that had an issue with him last year. They dumped a 31 spot on the eventual Super Bowl Champion Ravens the week after they played us. DC's around the league were scrambling for ways to slow this shit down once it started rolling and if RGIII wasn't playing on a leg and a half until the half became completely unusable against the Seahawks, who knows if anyone really would have.

I'm sure you know more about the technical stuff but sometimes I think this stuff is just more complicated than most of us even realize.

It's easy to key in on all of the options that were kept by him and run around the edge for huge gains, but how many times did Morris abuse us up the gut on dive plays because the guys on the edge waited too long to commit and then were too late?

These things are always like chess in the NFL. The read option guys jumped ahead last year but now it's the DC's turns to even things up. I'm sure most of these guys spent a TON of time this offseason trying to figure out how to do it. The blueprint will be out soon enough.
Unreal, almost mind boggling  
PaulN : 7/28/2013 10:29 pm : link
Joey takes one comment and then rants on, even though as was pointed out, they scored less against the Giants then any other team in the last 7 weeks, but go ahead and call anyone who says you are overreacting an idiot, that makes you right for sure. The day you know a tenth of what Tuck know then you can speak, but you don't. Its comical to read this shit.
Tuck played like a Hall of Famer  
Phil in LA : 7/28/2013 10:40 pm : link
for a few years and in two Super Bowls, but I haven't seen that guy around in the regular season for some time.
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