I feel both those who measure a defense by only the points or the yard guys are right to a degree.
The yards only guys who don't give credit for the effective scoring defense are more wrong than others because they are not using the complete picture to judge the defense. There are very few points guys who don't acknowledge the yards problem.
As for the level of improvement we'll see this year, I bet the better run defense from the healther DT's alone improves enough the yards allowed totals to make a huge difference in the Time of Possision stats.
And as Gilbright say the other day, they hope to be able to do with less chipping to help the offensive line this year. That should also help the offense stay on the field longer and expose the defense less. That leads to my theory that small many incremental changes which will lead to a better 2013 defense.
But there's not really a reason to be scratching and clawing for points against the 2012 Philadelphia Eagles.
They were a terrible football team in all phases and we should have hung 25 points on them at least.
Not saying you specifically, but we're all eager to jump on the defense for not doing it's job, and we're letting a high-priced offense go without it's share of the blame.
We failed to score 20 points in SIX games last year.
That's not good enough for a team with a $100m quarterback.
(:49) (Shotgun) 44-A.Bradshaw left tackle to PHI 26 for 1 yard (97-C.Jenkins).
2-9-PHI 26 (:25) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete deep right to 13-R.Barden. PENALTY on NYG-13-R.Barden, Offensive Pass Interference, 10 yards, enforced at PHI 26 - No Play.
2-19-PHI 36 (:21) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete deep right to 87-D.Hixon.
Timeout #2 by PHI at 00:10.
3-19-PHI 36 (:10) 9-L.Tynes 54 yard field goal is No Good, Short, Center-51-Z.DeOssie, Holder-5-S.Weatherford.
Division games are often close, low scoring affairs. You keep bringing up the Eagles game. Again, without Nicks. Bradshaw bad foot.
Still, we had the lead in the 4th quarter.
Defense blew it. Like they did against Steelers too. And both Redskins games. Had 4th quarter leads, the defense blew. Defense also blew lead against Tampa Bay in 4th. And should have lost the Dallas game.
4 13:58 1 10 NYG 35 Eli Manning pass incomplete short right intended for Victor Cruz 17 20 1.27 0.72
4 13:54 2 10 NYG 35 Ahmad Bradshaw right tackle for -1 yards (tackle by Casey Hampton) 17 20 0.72 -0.1
4 13:18 3 11 NYG 34 Eli Manning sacked by Lawrence Timmons for -11 yards 17 20 -0.1 -1.83
4 12:56 4 22 NYG 23 Steve Weatherford punts 52 yards, returned by Emmanuel Sanders for 63 yards (tackle by Steve Weatherford) 17 20 -1.83 -4.78
Possession 2:
Quote:
4 10:30 1 10 NYG 4 Ahmad Bradshaw left tackle for 2 yards (tackle by Brett Keisel and James Harrison) 17 20 -0.38 -0.63
4 9:59 2 8 NYG 6 Eli Manning pass incomplete deep left intended for Hakeem Nicks 17 20 -0.63 -1.19
4 9:45 3 8 NYG 6 Eli Manning pass complete short left to Martellus Bennett for 1 yard (tackle by Ryan Clark) 17 20 -1.19 -2.49
4 9:10 4 7 NYG 7 Steve Weatherford punts 55 yards, returned by Emmanuel Sanders for 11 yards (tackle by Michael Boley) 17 20 -2.49 -2.19
Possession 3:
Quote:
4 3:55 1 10 NYG 12 Eli Manning pass incomplete short left intended for Victor Cruz 24 20 -0.35 -0.78
4 3:51 2 10 NYG 12 Eli Manning pass incomplete deep middle intended for Martellus Bennett 24 20 -0.78 -1.42
4 3:45 3 10 NYG 12 Eli Manning sacked by LaMarr Woodley for -9 yards. Eli Manning fumbles (forced by LaMarr Woodley), recovered by Kevin Boothe at NYG-13 24 20 -1.42 -2.49
4 3:07 4 9 NYG 13 Steve Weatherford punts 51 yards, returned by Emmanuel Sanders for 2 yards (tackle by Spencer Paysinger). Penalty on Brandon Johnson: Offensive Holding, 10 yards 24 20 -2.49 -0.81
...just needs to figure out it's constipation between the opponents 5-20 yard lines. When your receivers are struggling with contact underneath it's only going to be exacerbated further when the field is compressed and DBs can squat on routes.....and further still if you can't run the ball situationally against minimally manned fronts allowing more posts in the fence they build across the field. Pile on the injuries along the line and to Nicks and you're getting hit from every direction.
Getting Snee and Baas healthier gives a strong POA, getting Nicks back and Myers providing a reliable chess piece at the move TE position will go a long way. When this team converts in the red zone they light up the scoreboard because there have been very few times when they've been denied a sufficient number of trips.
I don't know if I feel the same way...if Barden doesn't get the PI it doesn't look nearly so bad. There were two bad things that could have happened on that play: a penalty or turnover. Lots of good things could have happened, particularly with the propensity to call illegal contact, DPI, etc.
Eli and Barden just didn't execute.
Are we really arguing about if this defense was good or not last year?
"Sometimes the defense needs to win the game" is a weak excuse.
There's zero excuse for an offense to be that pitiful on 3 consecutive drives when a game is on the line. Not an offense with Eli Manning under center.
I can give them a break if they get one shot and don't come through. But they had 3 chances to do something.. anything.. and not only did they do nothing, they went backwards.
Their best drive of the 3 was moving forward 3 yards. A 2 yard run and a 1 yard pass to Bennett. That's horrendous no matter how you slice it.
It's kind of painting things with a broad brush to say division games
Exactly! That touchdown, long catch and run, by Wallace hurt big time. And of course the offense is going to have issues. You are going against the 1st overall defense with hurt offense. It's wonder the game was that close.
Missed opportunities. Tynes missed a 51 yarder which would have helped. At the end of the 3rd Q we had a 20-10 lead. We should have had that game. How the hell do you choke that lead? No lead is safe with this defense.
That 51 yard TD hurt us and brought the game 20-17. Then those fools tried a fake FG, which they failed, thank god! Ben marched them up the field and they scored and won.
has been a constant, year in, year out. It also literally carried the team through much of the 2011 season until the rest of the pass rush finally decided to join JPP through the final 6 games. That said, last year's offense clearly struggled in the red zone which was a big problem.
Last season boils down to a missed opportunity within the division, based on the division games alone. The opener against Dallas was crucial. They could NOT get off the field in the 2nd half. The Ogletree stuff, forced no punts, couldnt get the last stop they needed. Same @ Philly and @ Wash.
The difference here is this.
One possession need a FG/TD
One possession need a 3 & out/stop.
Which unit do you have more confidence in? I don't know how any fan of the Giants could say the defense.
We had Michael Coe and Justin Tryon playing CB in that Week 1 game against the Cowboys. I can't think of many defenses that are going to get stops with those guys out there.
and yet it is an undeniable fact that this offense got shut down against the Falcons,
shut down against the Ravens,
shut down against the Bengals,
and embarrassed by the bottom 3- ranked Redskins defense in a game they needed to win.
they couldn't get off the field. this prevented the offense from getting into a rhythm, prevented the offense from getting better field position, and put tremendous pressure on the offense.
can't just go by scoring and red zone defense.
i'm optimistic the personnel has improved. hopefully fewell will as well
And again, you're wrong about the game in Washington.
The defense forced a huge punt with 6 minutes to go and the offense rewarded them by going 3 and out.. again. All they needed was a FG to win the game and we couldn't even get a 1st down.
And that's why we were ranked 14th overall. That's near mid rank. 14th ranked overall tells me you are average, or slightly above it. You are going to have good games in the season, and bad games in the season, hence being near average. We were exactly that. Injuries was a major reason. Usually we are top 10 overall offense since 2008.
Only one team in 2011 and 2012 spent more of their cap space
(% wise) on their defense than the Giants did; 2013 is the first year in some time that there's going to be a shift in their cap allocation. Over the last 5 drafts the Giants have invested more draft picks -- both in overall quantity and the first 3 rounds -- than consistently very good to excellent defensive teams like the Steelers.
Obviously, the offense is better than the defense on this team and the team would be better off if that side of the ball could more consistent to carry the load fully (which isn't likely), but the Giants' actual allocation of resources just doesn't fit the offense-is-supposed-to-always-carry-the-defense, the-defense-has-less-stars stuff, no matter how many times people say it. If they're not getting a return on the investment they consistently make on that side of the ball, it's a pretty major problem.
The play calling even before that was ineffective. We got the 1st down because of the Nmandi penalty. Otherwise we get stopped there. The play calling sucked that whole series. Get the fuck closer so your kicker can kick it. He was too conservative and it hurt us. I was screaming at the tv for us to get closer. It was a god awful end game we called.
I said as clear as day when this entire argument started that both units needed to be better.
My point isn't that the defense was good and the offense sucked. My point is that neither played up to par last year and yet, all we ever hear about is how bad the defense was.
If I say they were better than league average in points allowed, people say "doesn't matter, they could never get off the field on 3rd downs".. but if I say that the offense couldn't put together scoring drives (or drives at all) in key spots of other games, people say "well, they were statistically good and sometimes the defense needs to win the games".
But people seem convinced that this defense is what held the team back when it's both sides of the ball that failed to do what needed to be done last year.
Some games the defense played great. Some they played badly Some games they played well enough to win and the offense didn't back them up.
All this team needed was 1-2 more wins to make the postseason.
You can pick and choose whichever loss games you want but the easiest picks were Philly 1 and Washington 2.
We had an offensive and coaching clusterfuck on the 10 yard line in philly, and a crucial defensive victory the offense turned into a quick 3-and-out that resulted in a kneel down loss to washington. Yeah, Nicks was out for at least one of those games, but that's not why we lost.
The yards only guys who don't give credit for the effective scoring defense are more wrong than others because they are not using the complete picture to judge the defense. There are very few points guys who don't acknowledge the yards problem.
As for the level of improvement we'll see this year, I bet the better run defense from the healther DT's alone improves enough the yards allowed totals to make a huge difference in the Time of Possision stats.
And as Gilbright say the other day, they hope to be able to do with less chipping to help the offensive line this year. That should also help the offense stay on the field longer and expose the defense less. That leads to my theory that small many incremental changes which will lead to a better 2013 defense.
Damontre Moore in backfield on first snap for 2nd team ... #DaMonster all over the place #NYG
Good job inside by Mike Patterson stopping a Torain run #NYG
Ohm Youngmisuk @NotoriousOHM 2m
There's some popping of the pads early on in 11s. Sounds good.
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 16s
Boz 2.0 just blew up Michael Cox in the backfield #NYG
They were a terrible football team in all phases and we should have hung 25 points on them at least.
Not saying you specifically, but we're all eager to jump on the defense for not doing it's job, and we're letting a high-priced offense go without it's share of the blame.
We failed to score 20 points in SIX games last year.
That's not good enough for a team with a $100m quarterback.
2011: 20 INT's (T-6th in NFL), 13 forced fumbles (T-16th in NFL), 48 sacks (T-3rd in NFL)
2010: 16 INT's (T-14th in NFL), 34 forced fumbles (1st in NFL), 46 sacks (5th in NFL)
2-9-PHI 26 (:25) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete deep right to 13-R.Barden. PENALTY on NYG-13-R.Barden, Offensive Pass Interference, 10 yards, enforced at PHI 26 - No Play.
2-19-PHI 36 (:21) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete deep right to 87-D.Hixon.
Timeout #2 by PHI at 00:10.
3-19-PHI 36 (:10) 9-L.Tynes 54 yard field goal is No Good, Short, Center-51-Z.DeOssie, Holder-5-S.Weatherford.
That's just god awful game play calling.
Still, we had the lead in the 4th quarter.
Defense blew it. Like they did against Steelers too. And both Redskins games. Had 4th quarter leads, the defense blew. Defense also blew lead against Tampa Bay in 4th. And should have lost the Dallas game.
6 total 2nd half points, 0 in the 4th quarter.
The Giants had 3 possessions in the 4th quarter of that game. Every single one was a 3 and out.
Possession 1:
4 13:54 2 10 NYG 35 Ahmad Bradshaw right tackle for -1 yards (tackle by Casey Hampton) 17 20 0.72 -0.1
4 13:18 3 11 NYG 34 Eli Manning sacked by Lawrence Timmons for -11 yards 17 20 -0.1 -1.83
4 12:56 4 22 NYG 23 Steve Weatherford punts 52 yards, returned by Emmanuel Sanders for 63 yards (tackle by Steve Weatherford) 17 20 -1.83 -4.78
Possession 2:
4 9:59 2 8 NYG 6 Eli Manning pass incomplete deep left intended for Hakeem Nicks 17 20 -0.63 -1.19
4 9:45 3 8 NYG 6 Eli Manning pass complete short left to Martellus Bennett for 1 yard (tackle by Ryan Clark) 17 20 -1.19 -2.49
4 9:10 4 7 NYG 7 Steve Weatherford punts 55 yards, returned by Emmanuel Sanders for 11 yards (tackle by Michael Boley) 17 20 -2.49 -2.19
Possession 3:
4 3:51 2 10 NYG 12 Eli Manning pass incomplete deep middle intended for Martellus Bennett 24 20 -0.78 -1.42
4 3:45 3 10 NYG 12 Eli Manning sacked by LaMarr Woodley for -9 yards. Eli Manning fumbles (forced by LaMarr Woodley), recovered by Kevin Boothe at NYG-13 24 20 -1.42 -2.49
4 3:07 4 9 NYG 13 Steve Weatherford punts 51 yards, returned by Emmanuel Sanders for 2 yards (tackle by Spencer Paysinger). Penalty on Brandon Johnson: Offensive Holding, 10 yards 24 20 -2.49 -0.81
Awesome job.
WR Jeremy Horne being carted to the locker room. Not sure what happened.
Conor Orr @ConorTOrr 3m
Cruz and Randle out with the first string here. #nyg
Negative 18 yards.
Getting Snee and Baas healthier gives a strong POA, getting Nicks back and Myers providing a reliable chess piece at the move TE position will go a long way. When this team converts in the red zone they light up the scoreboard because there have been very few times when they've been denied a sufficient number of trips.
Josh Brown 5/5 on FGs.
Conor Orr @ConorTOrr 5m
Thomas is hanging out here with a bulky wrap on his right knee. #nyg
Expand
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 36s
Aaron Curry to the house courtesy a gift from Curtis Painter #NYG
Got to run to meeting...
Eli and Barden just didn't execute.
There's zero excuse for an offense to be that pitiful on 3 consecutive drives when a game is on the line. Not an offense with Eli Manning under center.
I can give them a break if they get one shot and don't come through. But they had 3 chances to do something.. anything.. and not only did they do nothing, they went backwards.
Their best drive of the 3 was moving forward 3 yards. A 2 yard run and a 1 yard pass to Bennett. That's horrendous no matter how you slice it.
We scored 42 on the eagles the next time we played them. They were not a good football team.
Recent games against the cowboys have been 30+ point down to the wire shootouts.
We are driven by our offense and like to think we have one of the 5-7 best quarterbacks in the league, do we not?
We can't score fewer than 20 points in 6 games.
Missed opportunities. Tynes missed a 51 yarder which would have helped. At the end of the 3rd Q we had a 20-10 lead. We should have had that game. How the hell do you choke that lead? No lead is safe with this defense.
That 51 yard TD hurt us and brought the game 20-17. Then those fools tried a fake FG, which they failed, thank god! Ben marched them up the field and they scored and won.
It was a brutal game. Another lead squandered.
Last season boils down to a missed opportunity within the division, based on the division games alone. The opener against Dallas was crucial. They could NOT get off the field in the 2nd half. The Ogletree stuff, forced no punts, couldnt get the last stop they needed. Same @ Philly and @ Wash.
The difference here is this.
One possession need a FG/TD
One possession need a 3 & out/stop.
Which unit do you have more confidence in? I don't know how any fan of the Giants could say the defense.
shut down against the Ravens,
shut down against the Bengals,
and embarrassed by the bottom 3- ranked Redskins defense in a game they needed to win.
can't just go by scoring and red zone defense.
i'm optimistic the personnel has improved. hopefully fewell will as well
The defense forced a huge punt with 6 minutes to go and the offense rewarded them by going 3 and out.. again. All they needed was a FG to win the game and we couldn't even get a 1st down.
Obviously, the offense is better than the defense on this team and the team would be better off if that side of the ball could more consistent to carry the load fully (which isn't likely), but the Giants' actual allocation of resources just doesn't fit the offense-is-supposed-to-always-carry-the-defense, the-defense-has-less-stars stuff, no matter how many times people say it. If they're not getting a return on the investment they consistently make on that side of the ball, it's a pretty major problem.
Randle just grabbed a jump ball about 30 yards out between Prince and Webster. #nyg
My point isn't that the defense was good and the offense sucked. My point is that neither played up to par last year and yet, all we ever hear about is how bad the defense was.
If I say they were better than league average in points allowed, people say "doesn't matter, they could never get off the field on 3rd downs".. but if I say that the offense couldn't put together scoring drives (or drives at all) in key spots of other games, people say "well, they were statistically good and sometimes the defense needs to win the games".
This battle between Randle and Prince has been great so far. Each of them getting the best of each other.
Tough day for Pugh so far. False start and getting beat up a little by Moore. Of course, Thursday is the real test. #nyg
But people seem convinced that this defense is what held the team back when it's both sides of the ball that failed to do what needed to be done last year.
Some games the defense played great. Some they played badly Some games they played well enough to win and the offense didn't back them up.
All this team needed was 1-2 more wins to make the postseason.
You can pick and choose whichever loss games you want but the easiest picks were Philly 1 and Washington 2.
We had an offensive and coaching clusterfuck on the 10 yard line in philly, and a crucial defensive victory the offense turned into a quick 3-and-out that resulted in a kneel down loss to washington. Yeah, Nicks was out for at least one of those games, but that's not why we lost.
There is no Eli Manning on defense. JPP was close in 2011 but not last year.
Looks like Marvin Austin would've had a sack on Nassib. Defense with a strong practice thus far
Marvin Austin and Eric Herman with the first (almost) fight of training camp. Over and done with. #nyg
Half of BBI knew Herman was gonna get caught in scuffles haha
Cullen Jenkins getting quite a bit of work at DE today with Linval and Rogers inside. He just has a would-be sack on Eli