I don't want to sound like an a**hole but I want to discuss Mark Hezlich from strictly a football perspective. I'm trying to understand why people are adamant about the fact that he can be a starting caliber MLB in the NFL? His comeback story is nothing short of incredible and I understand he was a very good college player prior to his health issues but since he's returned to the field, I simply don't see it.
His senior yr at Boston College, Herzlich was an okay player that ultimately went undrafted. In games he's played for the Giants, he seems to consistently get pushed around and simply doesn't seem up to the task.
Now I do understand that due to the severity of his health issues it may take him more time than usual to return to top form but is there anything that you guys have seen since 2010 that make you think he could be a legit starter for us? I, like most of us, wish him the best and really would love to see him become that player but I just feel like people love the story more than the actual player. Am I wrong here?
Obviously I want to be wrong.
Great story but still need work to become and average NFL LB as he still struggle to be just perfunctory.
What we've seen might be his ceiling or it might not even scratch the surface of what he's capable of. That's why debating it seems like an exercise in futility to me.
If we always just appealed to authority and didn't discuss or question anything because we always assumed that the coaches would make the right decisions, there would be no point in having this board because it would eliminate like 85% of the discussion.
Herzlich may flop out as you think. Or the team might be seeing how his 3rd year pans out for him because he's quite knowledgeable now regarding the system. And as time has passed he's become stronger physically following his dealing with cancer.
However, what you see on TV watching the games once, versus what the teams sees in the games (many times over in actual game film) plus what they see in practice and everywhere else, multiplied by their vast knowledge in things football making yours pale in comparison tends to make we sway in their direction.
This was a good conversation about our potential starting MLB until you started chirping about nonsense as usual. If you want to contribute to a good conversation, then feel free to do so. If you want to continue to chirp then do it on a NFT. Thanks.
If you asked me why I believe Webster or Tuck could rebound this year or why Kiwi will succeed at DE, saying trust in the staff is a cop-out. But in this case, I don't think we have anything to go on rather than trust in the staff and what they are saying, unless you are going to answer "he's not" and that is not what i think at this time.
The coaches can say they've noticed a change in his attitude or whatever..but until the bullets really start flying, it's fairly unimportant and there's not a whole lot to put stock in.
I think it's fair for fans to think that Herzlich may not pan out based on what we've seen so far. Those of us who hold that opinion would love to be wrong.. but I don't think there's anything wrong with holding that opinion. It doesn't have to be met with "well, the coaches know more so..."
But we can't say, "The coaches know more than we do?"
Is that what we're saying? Wait, that isn't even a question--it is what you just said.
It's lazy to always just say "well, the coaches know more than you do".
No shit they know more than we do. That doesn't mean we're not entitled to opinions.
My point is that us questioning coaches when it comes to familiarity with players and what they're doing/planning with certain players and for what reason, it is mostly an exercise in futility.
My issue IS with us thinking we know more than the coaches because we simply don't.
A little more humility would be nice.
"I wonder what the coaches see in Herzlich because from my limited vantage point, he seemed late to plays and not always understanding what was going on"
"Those are great points, Brad, but did you see that article where the coaches said that MH has made huge leaps in meeting their expectations so this should be an exciting preseason to see what's what!"
I don't think I know more than the coaches. Based on what I personally saw from him last year, I just wasn't impressed at all. He can certainly surprise me this year and I hope he does. But I don't think there's anything wrong with having concerns about him. I know I do.
Just asking because that was the premise here and darned if I see anyone expressing that opinion. I see plenty of doubts, even more hopes, but nothing like anyone refusing to have their mind's changed about his ability be a starting caliber MLB in the NFL.
Which would mean this whole thing was based on a straw man to begin with.
While we're here: anyone adamant as to why a straw man can be a starting caliber MLB in the NFL?
One of you guys who know how to archive these threads make note of where this one is and let's check it out again mid way thru the season. I think we're going to find that Herzlich's a steal
There is certainly reason for concern about the linebackers in general, and the MIKE in particular. Herzlich has been pretty bad in his limited game action. Connor is an ordinary player with a bleak medical history. The other guys have little or no experience in the middle. What I like is the general shape of the competition between Herzlich and Connor: a guy the staff regards as having a lot of upside versus a decent veteran fallback. It's basically the same approach as last year, except Herzlich has another valuable year behind him, and I think Connor is better than Blackburn. Would Reese trade them both for Patrick Willis? As far as I know, Trent Baalke hasn't called to ask.
Although Connor is the newcomer, the Giants have a pretty good idea what he can do. Herzlich simply gets the first shot. If MH is still the starter in the third preseason game, this discussion will be much more interesting.
The coaches who are watching him practice say he is doing better than last year. I am happy to accept this while being aware that that isn't such a high bar. On the other hand neither is playing as well as Chase Blackburn, much as I like him and as grateful as we all are for the big pick in the SB. Herzlich, or one of the others, could be an improvement over Chase without being close to a great linebacker
Chase Blackburn did not get big money from Carolina; the Giants could have kept him if they wanted to. Apparently they think they can get better play from one of the guys currently in camp. While Herz and Connor are the main candidates at Mike, they can also try Rivers and Curry they if they need to.
arcarsenal : 7/30/2013 5:07 pm
Camp has been open for 3 days and they haven't even done anything in full pads yet.
This is exactly why I find the timing of this thread odd.
To vibe's point, the premise is that a whole lot of people are crowing about Herz, and I don't think that is the case. CAN he be a starting LB? Sure. Will he be? I have no clue.
And three days into camp, it is odd timing to wonder this. Maybe after we have seen him in drills and in preseason games and see if he's progressed and heard the coaches discus his ability to pick things up, we can make a more informed opinion, but to ask this question with the bias being there hasn't been anything of note to inspire us for his first two years is sort of ridiculous.
The point in the post directly above is also a good one. A starting MLB doesn't have to be amazing if he's on a team where that is a weak spot, he simply has to be the best of a mediocre lot, which would say nothing much about how impressive Herz is.
IMO this reeks of a topic to discuss just for the hell of it, rather than to really have anything of substance to debate.
were we screaming Strahan's praises after his first four or five games? Probably not.
1st couple of preseason games ought to give us a better idea. '
and remember last year - the DLine was not good, that will impact his play as well.
If he were a rookie, I'd say "well.. can we at least see him in ONE game before we jump to conclusions?".. but I don't even think it's so much jumping to conclusions as it's thinking he may just never have the pure athleticism to match his drive and make him a really good player.
I have no idea one way or another. I just didn't see many flashes of anything from him last year that got me excited. With a guy like Williams, you saw the flashes as a rookie and thought "yeah, this guy can be really good.. I'll take whatever warts pop up in the meantime while he's learning".
I don't doubt that Herzlich is going to work as hard as anyone out there and do whatever he possibly can.. but at the end of camp, my money would be on it being Connor's job (and I'm not even really a fan of his).
We'll see how it plays out.
I wish more people took that stance.
Beyond that? It's gonna be a crapshoot.
Has Herz regained enough that he is in the same class as Connor/Paysinger?
If not, I do not believe he will be on the roster, let alone start.
If he has, I could see him used as a 2-down starter.
Strongside Linebacker
Jacquian Williams
Spencer Paysinger
Etienne Sabino
Middle Linebacker
Dan Connor
Mark Herzlich
Jake Muasau
Weakside Linebacker
Keith Rivers
Aaron Curry
Kyle Bosworth
We've heard good things about all of them at one time or another so I could see it coming together and being a strong group (potentially)
Chase Blackburn pretty much demonstrated that you need somebody who can properly set up the defense more than you need somebody who is fast. IMHO, I do not think that Connor would be all that effective if he had less experienced players like Curry on one side and Williams on the other. With Herzlich on the field, the new guys will be given better directions.
Maybe, in the middle of the season, Connor will have enough grasp of the system to be able to direct his teammates. But until then, I would not want to put three of our relatively inexperienced LBs on the field at the same time, regardless of their physical talent.
Said another way, you need an experienced LB to keep the other(s) from making mental errors.
Blackburn stunk at his own position. Makes it easy for good OCs to know where a soft defense is really soft.
If Herz=Blackburn I do not want to go there again.
If that isn't the definition of thinking they know more than those in charge, I don't know what is.
Blackburn was so fucking useless that the Panthers new GM rushed out to sign him.
We might get frustrated that people aren't playing up to expectations or disappointed because the shirt we root for isn't winning, but I've always found it distasteful to take that disappointment out by calling players and coaces poor at their jobs, especially when we do it with a fraction of the data needed to make an informed opinion.
Want to call somebody an idiot for getting arrested or for getting suspended? Fine. Calling somebody out for poor performance just reeks of irraional fandom, even if it turns out to be warranted. You might relish being in the status quo, but like I said, if that's the case, I don't know what else to say.
Fantastic, with the emphasis on FAN.
I think the question is can Herz be as smart and as athletic as Antonio Pierce was. That's the type of player he has to be to succeed. Basically smarter than just about everyone else on the field.