Why do people think Herzlich can be a starting NFL MLB?

And because we are fans.

There's a difference b/w hope and believing something. I consistently hear people say that they THINK he will win the job outright. Granted, the Giants don't have much talent at MLB position right now but it sounds like people have higher expectations than just blindly hoping.

..

but he has not demonstrated in any way shape or form, THUS FAR, that he can play MLB in this league. I hope he proves us wrong but from what I've seen of him in reviewing game film, he is slow to react, tentative, and does not shed blocks well. To be quite honest, the young man looks like he's playing with a pair of lead boots on.

what pencap said.

Some fans think too much of the college star when attempting to project him to the type of player he'll be in the NFL.

His play in the NFL has been erratic. In some stretches he shows a terrific nose for the football, solid play recognition and anticipation, uses his hands well to defeat blockers, explodes to the flats to track ballcarriers, and will explode through them when tackling, and looks natural playing in pursuit from the backside. He plays with confidence and looks like he did his film homework.

More often, he looks lost, is slow off snap and slow to read, disengage from blockers, gets lost in the pursuit wash, etc. Surely, some of it is a lack of confidence (didn't prepare well enough, the offensive front is kicking his/our arses, etc) and a lack of foot speed.

My expectations have lowered on expecting more than a solid player, given his suspect combine testing, lack of being drafted, and unable to unseat some ordinary veteran LBs ahead of him in the NFL.

..hopefully he`s stronger and faster

it's because he's white, huh? Admit it.

and they are so much smarter than you it makes my head spin.

of the writers watching him. He wants it really bad. This is not a guy who should be underestimated. That being said I kind of share your viewpoint on him. The sad shape of the Giants linebackers is hopefully not the only reason he has this oppurtunity.

I want him to succeed more because of his story than anything else. I have no problem admitting that.

but if he has the playbook down pat, and do a better job of keeping blockers off of him, he could surprise. I hope he enjoys success, because he has 2 awesome english bulldogs lol.

Bingo. It's a story we'd love to see have a happy ending. Like you, I sure as hell hope it happens. Am I confident about that? Afraid not.

I have more faith in the staff to make these decisions than fans. They seem to think he can do it. He has had very limited opportunities on the field, and was overcoming a significant illness and then subsequent injuries.

I also recognize that there aren't going to be stars at every position. The Giants place a premium on DL & secondary. the LB's merely have to do their job. I don't expect him to be outstanding or a star, but I absolutely think he can be serviceable. it's his position to lose right now, it seems, and it is time for him to prove all of the doubters wrong if he can.

1) He is entering the 3rd year in the defensive system and it seems like he knows it in and out which should help him with speed.

Anyone ever notice how crappy our defense played in 2011 when we had someone who was not familiar calling the defense as the Middle LB. We brought back Chase because he knew the defense in and out and put them in the correct position to defend the offense.

2)His Rookie season, he was a year removed from cancer, so he was not in the correct shape to be the badass linebacker that warranted a first round draft choice. After 2 years of a pro lifting system, I think he should have the muscle back that he needs to be at least a descent MLB in the NFL. (It certainly seems like he has been working his ass off to get in the best shape he can be in)

there is anything more annoying than trying to have a football discussion with football fans who understand football than when some of them say "b/c I believe in the staff." Obviously we all believe in a staff that has 2 Super Bowl rings but the point of the discussion is to hear what YOUR opinion is based on what YOU see...not to reiterate what we all hear the coaches tell the media.

...developed into a legit starter, if not a star, with the # of game reps that Herzlich has had already(?).

but the Giants don't have many options. I still see Connor beating him out as the starter before all is said and done.

As to reasons to hope I think the D-line can improve this year at the tackle positions and keep some blockers off the linebackers.

no offense, but what WE see amounts to probably .01% of what Herzlich actually does. So while it is trite, depending on the staff to make the decision and the evaluation is pretty damn correct.

I find it odd that somebody actually creates a post asking this question. You know how many border-line starters there are in the NFL on teams with mediocre to poor units?

Herzlich yet, one way or another

Just not likely a good one.

I don't agree with that. We have a kid here who is in his third year and has had limited opportunities to play in the NFL. I am a BC guy and love Herzy, but if I had to go by his sub-par play up to this point, I would say he couldn't be a starter in the NFL this season. However, from what we have heard this off-season from the staff and other players, there has been an improvement in confidence and skillset. The only way we can have faith that he can start is by trusting in the staff. Otherwise, the answer is no.

Sure, he has shown some flashes but overall he has been inconsistant and mediocre at best. But the fact he is only in his third year, has been without injury/illness for sometime and the fact that the staff and other players believe in him makes me believe he can be the starter.

That original statement was not meant to be condescending, I said it only because t's just the fact that they know better than us because they see him day in and day out, while we have seen limited, sporadic snaps in the NFL. If it were someone who has started consistantly in the past, like Chase, it would be a different statement. But the only way you can think herzy can be the starter is by trusting in the staff, at this point.

I have assumed that Connor will be our starting MIKE and still do.

There are only 2 reasons I can think of that Herz may start:

1. Connor is new to the system and needs the reps - yet, based on reports, Herz is getting most of the snaps.

2. Based on the timing of his cancer, surgery and rehab he would reasonably seem to be at his peak about now. I'm assuming he will never be 100% of wht he would have been, but is as good physically as he will be.

That said - I'll still be very surprised if its not Connor at MIKE.
Though, IMO, Herz has as good a chance as anyone to play WILL (Big LB in our system)
And, the staff may also think that Herz at MIKE and Connor at WILL (with Jacquain) is our best alignment

I would agree if he had never played in a live game and the only way to understand his abilities was to watch practice. But that's not the case. Most of us have watched him play quite a bit last season and some of us even watched him in college both pre and post health issues. There's enough there to formulate an educated opinion. And the point of the thread was to see if others had formulated a different opinion than my own (based on what they've seen) and why.

... why is everyone so quick write this guy off after two years in the league?

As a point of reference, do you know how many receptions Amani Toomer had after 2 seasons? Seventeen...and ended up as the Giants all-time leading receiver.

Everyone is so quick to rush to judgment...playing LB in the NFL isn't the easiest thing in the world and there's a learning curve.

It wasn't long ago that this kid was voted the best defensive player in the ACC. The NFL is the most sentimental place in the world and if the Giants coaches didn't think he could play he wouldn't be on the roster much less be penciled in as starter.

Lets watch this thing play out. It takes some guys a longer time to develop than others.

As many have said it is a great story, but I look at Coughlin's connection to BC as well as the comeback story aspect being the reason Herzlich even got a shot in the first place. Heart warming stories are great and all but I want freak athletes out there, he just doesn't appear to be that anymore.

Racer... Had a feeling Goff was on the cusp of becoming that thumper in the middle who showed legit signs of improvement but injuries obviously didn't allow that. Was pretty dissapointed when he went down.

....

definitely not writing him off and still have hope that he can be what many were so excited to see when we signed him as an UDFA. Maybe he needs more time to re-gain his strength and speed. It would be a huge boost if he could be that player for us but I just have my doubts based on what I've seen so far. As others have said, I do trust the coaches and if they think he's progressed and is currently our best option, let's see what he's got!

I agree, but hasn't Herzlich had as many game reps as Goff did (about 5 starts to end the season when AP got hurt and maybe a couple into the next season) when he got to that level?

That is the issue with comparing players. Looking at game reps and performance of 1 player does not help evaluate another player, because he could take longer to develop. Someone like Revis was able to come in and make an impact at CB immediately, while it took Corey Webster a couple years to become a very good CB. Players develop differently so it's tough to compare two guys based on the amount of snaps or gs they have had this early on in their career.

judged solely by their first couple of years, especially those coming off incredible circumstances, a whole lot of good players would be sent to the scrap heap.

If Chd Jones signed with the Giants and played like dogshit, you'd probably have people waiting for him to get better as he healed, and with good reason.

Yes in comparison of the two I believe it was Goff's 3rd year where he got a real shot at the end of the year and flashed signs. That would be equivalent to Herzlich doing the same this year.

I'm all about having the best players possible on the field at all times, if Herz happens to be that this year then sounds good to me, just a bit skeptical that is going to be the case. We shall see.

Different circumstances for different players. When players flash talent but simply need more experience then that's one thing. When a player simply doesn't look strong or fast enough that's another.

In the case of Herzlich, if the lack of strength and speed can be attributed to his comeback from Ewing's Sarcoma then I agree it's too early to make any judgments. But I have no idea if it takes more than 4 years to be fully healthy from that. I think this training camp and preseason will tell us a lot about whether he will continue to improve or if he's peaked and the talent simply isn't there. I'm hoping for the former.

..that the light really went on for Goff at about the phase Herzlich's going into now.

I thought Goff really made it clear that he was getting it when once a game (it seemed to me) he anticipated the flow of a running play and shot through his gap to make a tackle for a loss.

Sorry can't resist. We will soon see what another off season of study working out and maturity will yield. I hope for the best

I don't see it with Herzlich, either. I think he's a ST guy and nothing more.

Obviously I want to be wrong.

where Herz rushes and fills the wrong hole, or is late getting to it.

Great story but still need work to become and average NFL LB as he still struggle to be just perfunctory.

but prior to this season, he wasn't even an effective backup.

And it's not like they're looking for Dick Butkus?

.

in looking at players who came back from chemo and a leg injury.

What we've seen might be his ceiling or it might not even scratch the surface of what he's capable of. That's why debating it seems like an exercise in futility to me.

I understand its a great story and all that, but medically it takes years to get back to normal human strength, nonetheless NFL player strength. The guy has the size, 6'4", 250lbs, and the smarts to play MLB in this league and from his wikipedia page, "In 2008 Herzlich was a First-team All-American and the ACC Defensive Player of the Year. He was also a finalist for the Butkus Award, and a quarterfinalist for the Lott Trophy." He was a very accomplished college player before he went down with his illness. He was on track to be a first round pick and those players are expected to start and star at their position. He's had to make all the normal adjustments to the NFL while simultaneously shaking off injury rust and totally rebuilding his body, strength, and athleticism. It was a risk and if it was going to work it might take years. But we know this guy has the drive and the intelligence for this, sounds based on the reports we've been hearing out of camp that his body might finally be returning to form. Personally, I'm rooting for him and believe IN MY HEAD that the job is his to lose unless Curry can step it up.

The staff knows more than you do PLUS I don't think you are very smart.

Nobody gives a shit what you think!

Of course coaches know more than we do. But it's training camp. Not every body in every NFL camp goes on to be a good football player. A lot of guys don't. Herzlich might be one of them or maybe he'll surprise a lot of people.

If we always just appealed to authority and didn't discuss or question anything because we always assumed that the coaches would make the right decisions, there would be no point in having this board because it would eliminate like 85% of the discussion.

well said.

I think that you are reactionary to "issues with the team" and sure, discussion can be had about anything, but you don't do it well.

Herzlich may flop out as you think. Or the team might be seeing how his 3rd year pans out for him because he's quite knowledgeable now regarding the system. And as time has passed he's become stronger physically following his dealing with cancer.

However, what you see on TV watching the games once, versus what the teams sees in the games (many times over in actual game film) plus what they see in practice and everywhere else, multiplied by their vast knowledge in things football making yours pale in comparison tends to make we sway in their direction.

Really? This is a reactionary thread?! We just started training camp and there have been few, if any, reports about Herzlich to date. This isn't reactionary to anything at the moment.

This was a good conversation about our potential starting MLB until you started chirping about nonsense as usual. If you want to contribute to a good conversation, then feel free to do so. If you want to continue to chirp then do it on a NFT. Thanks.

I don't disagree with that in most cases. However, i think in this case, unless you have been watching every training camp practice and concentrating on him, the only answer to the question "Why do you think Herzy can start" is trust in the staff. If we go based on his limited, immature play, then you can't believe that. However, based on the talk from the staff and other players it sounds like he has made an improvement in both confidence and skillset which has led me to believe he can start.

If you asked me why I believe Webster or Tuck could rebound this year or why Kiwi will succeed at DE, saying trust in the staff is a cop-out. But in this case, I don't think we have anything to go on rather than trust in the staff and what they are saying, unless you are going to answer "he's not" and that is not what i think at this time.

Camp has been open for 3 days and they haven't even done anything in full pads yet.

The coaches can say they've noticed a change in his attitude or whatever..but until the bullets really start flying, it's fairly unimportant and there's not a whole lot to put stock in.

I think it's fair for fans to think that Herzlich may not pan out based on what we've seen so far. Those of us who hold that opinion would love to be wrong.. but I don't think there's anything wrong with holding that opinion. It doesn't have to be met with "well, the coaches know more so..."

strength and that can improve. Does anyone know if the cancer would effect his speed in a similiar fashion.

It is ok to hold the ignorant position of "I know more than the coaches!!"
But we can't say, "The coaches know more than we do?"

Is that what we're saying? Wait, that isn't even a question--it is what you just said.

Who said they know more than the coaches? That would be a pretty foolish thing for anyone to say as well. What arc was saying was that using the logic "the coaches know more than we do so let's just trust them" would pretty much kill almost every football thread on BBI. We're allowed to discuss our opinions and thoughts regarding the Giants as well. That's kinda the whole point of this board.

What I said is that (contrary to what you seem to believe), the coaches aren't right 100% of the time. Which means it's fair (especially in camp) to be of the opinion that a particular player may simply not be good enough.

It's lazy to always just say "well, the coaches know more than you do".

No shit they know more than we do. That doesn't mean we're not entitled to opinions.

that coaches might see in Herzlich the personality, leadership, character, and intelligence that made Antonio Pierce and Chase Blackburn good enough to help us win Super Bowls. As for physical tools, Herzlich at this point in his career may be no worse (and maybe better) than they were during our championship runs near the end of their careers.

entitled to their opinions and the coaches are correct pretty often on winning times, but nowhere near 100%.

My point is that us questioning coaches when it comes to familiarity with players and what they're doing/planning with certain players and for what reason, it is mostly an exercise in futility.

My issue IS with us thinking we know more than the coaches because we simply don't.

A little more humility would be nice.

"I wonder what the coaches see in Herzlich because from my limited vantage point, he seemed late to plays and not always understanding what was going on"

"Those are great points, Brad, but did you see that article where the coaches said that MH has made huge leaps in meeting their expectations so this should be an exciting preseason to see what's what!"

in rehab. im not sure any specifics beyond that, but at least at BC anyway, you could see he doesn't much of a short area burst

I'm not really sure what was in the OP that disagrees with your last post. He didn't say he knew for sure that Herzlich was going to flop he just said that he hadn't seen anything out of Herzlich yet to suggest that he's a starting caliber NFL MIKE. He also said that he realized there were outside factors that had been holding him back but ultimately, the brunt of the post was just that he's skeptical as to whether MH is good enough to win a starting job. I think it's a fair question and I feel similarly.

I don't think I know more than the coaches. Based on what I personally saw from him last year, I just wasn't impressed at all. He can certainly surprise me this year and I hope he does. But I don't think there's anything wrong with having concerns about him. I know I do.

Once again, the coaches have been RAVING about how incredibly much more Herz & Paysinger know & understand the playbook. Every player & coach who has ever been interviewed has claimed that that amount of knowledge makes players make decisions quicker & play much faster. As a few posters ago mentioned, that was why Chase & Pierce were as valued as they were despite not being remotely the most athletically gifted players. I think Herz's increased knowledge & leadership are what gives me reason to believe he'll be as capable of starting as Pierce or Chase & perhaps better the further away from cancer rehab he gets.

a starting caliber MLB in the NFL?'

Just asking because that was the premise here and darned if I see anyone expressing that opinion. I see plenty of doubts, even more hopes, but nothing like anyone refusing to have their mind's changed about his ability be a starting caliber MLB in the NFL.

Which would mean this whole thing was based on a straw man to begin with.

While we're here: anyone adamant as to why a straw man can be a starting caliber MLB in the NFL?

more than Rivers'

But it is about what the coaches think.

Check out the first video from practice today on Giants.com. Herzlich outrun Mundy (a defensive back) down the field on kick coverage. He's got his speed back. Word is he's benching well over 400 lbs. He's got his strength back. Word out of camp is that he's not playing tentatively at all. He's got his instincts back.

One of you guys who know how to archive these threads make note of where this one is and let's check it out again mid way thru the season. I think we're going to find that Herzlich's a steal

If Herzlich is the same player we saw the past two years, he'll lose the job. Maybe Connor will beat him out in preseason, like Blackburn did last year (partly because minor injuries ended the competition before it could begin). Maybe Herzlich will get benched mid-year, like Greg Jones in 2011. Either way, if the improvement the staff has seen in practice, meetings and workouts doesn't translate to games, MH will end up like Jones soon enough. I doubt anyone associated with the team would stake his career on Herzlich. Nor have they. Nor should they.

There is certainly reason for concern about the linebackers in general, and the MIKE in particular. Herzlich has been pretty bad in his limited game action. Connor is an ordinary player with a bleak medical history. The other guys have little or no experience in the middle. What I like is the general shape of the competition between Herzlich and Connor: a guy the staff regards as having a lot of upside versus a decent veteran fallback. It's basically the same approach as last year, except Herzlich has another valuable year behind him, and I think Connor is better than Blackburn. Would Reese trade them both for Patrick Willis? As far as I know, Trent Baalke hasn't called to ask.

Although Connor is the newcomer, the Giants have a pretty good idea what he can do. Herzlich simply gets the first shot. If MH is still the starter in the third preseason game, this discussion will be much more interesting.

To win the job he doesn't have to be a great linebacker, just better than the alternatives on the roster or available after cuts from other teams. None of those guys has exactly lit up the league either. So maybe Herzlich's health and added experience will have him playing better, and maybe it won't. I don't see how anyone, fan or coach, will know for sure until they start playing at least preseason games at full speed. And maybe one of his competitors will step up his game more and beat him out.

The coaches who are watching him practice say he is doing better than last year. I am happy to accept this while being aware that that isn't such a high bar. On the other hand neither is playing as well as Chase Blackburn, much as I like him and as grateful as we all are for the big pick in the SB. Herzlich, or one of the others, could be an improvement over Chase without being close to a great linebacker

Chase Blackburn did not get big money from Carolina; the Giants could have kept him if they wanted to. Apparently they think they can get better play from one of the guys currently in camp. While Herz and Connor are the main candidates at Mike, they can also try Rivers and Curry they if they need to.

Quote:

. arcarsenal : 7/30/2013 5:07 pm Camp has been open for 3 days and they haven't even done anything in full pads yet.

This is exactly why I find the timing of this thread odd.
To vibe's point, the premise is that a whole lot of people are crowing about Herz, and I don't think that is the case. CAN he be a starting LB? Sure. Will he be? I have no clue.

And three days into camp, it is odd timing to wonder this. Maybe after we have seen him in drills and in preseason games and see if he's progressed and heard the coaches discus his ability to pick things up, we can make a more informed opinion, but to ask this question with the bias being there hasn't been anything of note to inspire us for his first two years is sort of ridiculous.

The point in the post directly above is also a good one. A starting MLB doesn't have to be amazing if he's on a team where that is a weak spot, he simply has to be the best of a mediocre lot, which would say nothing much about how impressive Herz is.

IMO this reeks of a topic to discuss just for the hell of it, rather than to really have anything of substance to debate.

he hasn't played enough yet and we haven't seen enough of him yet.

were we screaming Strahan's praises after his first four or five games? Probably not.

1st couple of preseason games ought to give us a better idea. '

and remember last year - the DLine was not good, that will impact his play as well.

All I'm saying is I don't think it's unfair to not have much confidence in Herzlich right now.

If he were a rookie, I'd say "well.. can we at least see him in ONE game before we jump to conclusions?".. but I don't even think it's so much jumping to conclusions as it's thinking he may just never have the pure athleticism to match his drive and make him a really good player.

I have no idea one way or another. I just didn't see many flashes of anything from him last year that got me excited. With a guy like Williams, you saw the flashes as a rookie and thought "yeah, this guy can be really good.. I'll take whatever warts pop up in the meantime while he's learning".

I don't doubt that Herzlich is going to work as hard as anyone out there and do whatever he possibly can.. but at the end of camp, my money would be on it being Connor's job (and I'm not even really a fan of his).

We'll see how it plays out.

agreed, especially the "we'll see how it plays out" part.

I wish more people took that stance.

How many solid 3 down backers are there in the NFL, in today's NFL? Whomever man's the middle will do so for 2 downs before we go nickle or even dime..With a much improved(hopefully) run defense down the gut, I'm rather certain we can do fine with Herz or Connor

Well, it would be much less of an issue if we had 2 really proven, battle tested guys on the outside.. but we kind of don't. We all like Williams and Rivers when they're healthy.. but we don't know if they'll be healthy.

Beyond that? It's gonna be a crapshoot.

you have until you're into the season, which I totally agree with..

is too slow to be a legit starting NFL defender. The Giants also don't have any other options so hope for the best.

I am not speaking here of healthy Rivers/Williams/Curry +++ speed for LBs.

Has Herz regained enough that he is in the same class as Connor/Paysinger?

If not, I do not believe he will be on the roster, let alone start.

If he has, I could see him used as a 2-down starter.

I find this LB group to be interesting at the very least:

Strongside Linebacker
Jacquian Williams
Spencer Paysinger
Etienne Sabino

Middle Linebacker
Dan Connor
Mark Herzlich
Jake Muasau

Weakside Linebacker
Keith Rivers
Aaron Curry
Kyle Bosworth

We've heard good things about all of them at one time or another so I could see it coming together and being a strong group (potentially)

he has a much better understanding of the defensive scheme than Connor does and that is more important than whether Connor is a slightly better athlete than Herzlich. Think of the Mike as the QB of the defense. How fast and how strong is Eli? Obviously, Eli's talent is being able to look at the defense and beat it. The same goes for the Mike.

Chase Blackburn pretty much demonstrated that you need somebody who can properly set up the defense more than you need somebody who is fast. IMHO, I do not think that Connor would be all that effective if he had less experienced players like Curry on one side and Williams on the other. With Herzlich on the field, the new guys will be given better directions.

Maybe, in the middle of the season, Connor will have enough grasp of the system to be able to direct his teammates. But until then, I would not want to put three of our relatively inexperienced LBs on the field at the same time, regardless of their physical talent.

Said another way, you need an experienced LB to keep the other(s) from making mental errors.

"relatively inexperienced."

Blackburn stunk at his own position. Makes it easy for good OCs to know where a soft defense is really soft.

If Herz=Blackburn I do not want to go there again.

when fans sit on their asses and say that players stink, especally ones who have been in the league for several years.

If that isn't the definition of thinking they know more than those in charge, I don't know what is.

Blackburn was so fucking useless that the Panthers new GM rushed out to sign him.

Maybe things are a little different down in Charlotte but here in New York, fans are brutally honest and talk about what they think of players all the time. We're allowed to have our opinion and to discuss it. Aside from the fact that it's part of being a fan, I don't find it distasteful at all...it's a football discussion about the players on our team. We don't all have to agree but there's nothing wrong with having the conversation and an opinion based on what YOU see.

if you can't figure out that saying any professional player "stinks" is idiotic, I don't know what to say. By the way, that was directed at Bob.

We might get frustrated that people aren't playing up to expectations or disappointed because the shirt we root for isn't winning, but I've always found it distasteful to take that disappointment out by calling players and coaces poor at their jobs, especially when we do it with a fraction of the data needed to make an informed opinion.

Want to call somebody an idiot for getting arrested or for getting suspended? Fine. Calling somebody out for poor performance just reeks of irraional fandom, even if it turns out to be warranted. You might relish being in the status quo, but like I said, if that's the case, I don't know what else to say.

Last I knew, this is a "fan" site, and "stinks" is a relative term. I really don't see the point of being called out for either. I am well aware that what is expressed on this site is largely opinion.

and apparently discarded.

Fantastic, with the emphasis on FAN.

There are a few things wrong with your premise. First you reference Herzlich during his senior season. He was 18 months removed from the original cancer diagnosis. A better marker would be how he played his junior season. As a long time Boston College season ticket holder I can attest to how great that season was for him. That year was the single best LB season I have ever seen from a BC LB including some very good college and/or pro players including Romanowski, Boyd, DeOssie and even Butkus award winner Kuechly. Having watched him closely since his return to football I will tell you that he is getting closer to what he was. The further he gets from the cancer the better he plays. Will he ever return to that form of his junior season ? Probably not. But if he gets to 90% of what he was that year then he can be a productive player. As mentioned in earlier posts, there are a number of attributes that you want in an interior LB. Leadership, brains, enthusiasism etc. The Giants and Tom Coughlin won't keep him around because of sympathy or loyalty. Roster spots are too valuable for that. I hope he gets back to what he was.

When they see a guy like Herzlich working as hard as he apparently works, they are looking for reasons to keep him. Its what all coaches do. Just because they see him everyday doesn't mean they aren't wrong about him.

I think the question is can Herz be as smart and as athletic as Antonio Pierce was. That's the type of player he has to be to succeed. Basically smarter than just about everyone else on the field.