Last night was another exhibit of why David Diehl is no longer a capable starting offensive lineman in the NFL. I know Pugh was hurt last week but I think it's imperative that Pugh gets work at RT during practice with the first team this week and gets an opportunity to start the next game. We obviously drafted him b/c of the issues we've had with our oline the last two seasons so it's about time our first round pick got a chance to show what he can do.
Now before the crazies come out and say "well, the coaching staff gets to see him every day so they obviously know better," all I'm saying is to give him the OPPORTUNITY in the preseason. As Reese has said in the past, this team expects their top two picks to come in and contribute right away. We need to find out if we have a real solution at RT b/c David Diehl is clearly no longer than answer.
Also, depending on the severity of the Baas injury last night, it's very possible DD will be moved to LG for the foreseeable future anyway while Boothe fills in at Center. If so, that will give Pugh his shot anyway. But either way, we need to find out if he's ready to start BEFORE the beginning of the season.
to LG would be a disaster.
While I know you're sarcastic comment was made in jest, there is an actual point to be made there, so thank you. For those that watched the game last night, it seemed like Gilbride actually did give Diehl significant amount of help from both the TE's and the RB's. This is simply another reason why it's important for improved play from our RT. Allowing us to play a 1 on 1 matchup on that side will give us an extra weapon in the passing game.
There is already a rather lengthy discussion going. It's not as if this thread adds anything illuminating to the debate.
exactly my point. With Diehl at RT it's pretty much a necessity. We need to see what Pugh is capable of.
I want to cringe, but Eli handles pressure from the left side better generally than he does the right, so maybe, in an odd way, it would work out for the "best" (of the realistic options) for him to be slotted there for awhile, while Boothe covers for Baas at C.
Pugh needs a year of learning and work the weight room. If Brewer isn't a short term answer then the Giants need to go with Diehl and help him with game planning and help from the TE and RB.
getting beaten like a punched drunk boxer. He will get Eli hurt. Just can't see why he is still allowed out there.
say " ...the coaching staff sees him in practice every day and knows better...". I would think the smarties would be saying that.
b/c almost no OT on an NFL roster could possibly play worse than the way DD has looked over the last 2 seasons.
but man...he's toast. burnt toast. It's time....even if it means we HAVE to roll out a first round rookie. At least he'll move his feet?
There's no way the Giants' coaching staff was going to put Justin Pugh in with the first team OL after he'd missed significant practice time in August and had never played in an NFL game before. They had to play him with the 2nd team, just to make sure he wouldn't get the QB killed.
That said, I thought he played quite well - better than did David Diehl.
Pugh might not get a look with the 1st team vs. the J-E-T-S, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him out there in our last preseason game, just to see how he fares against the Big Boys.
I predict he will replace DD at RT by Game Three of the regular season.
or would it be Brewer or Mosley?
or is Brewer? Also, if they decide to move Boothe to center, who plays LG? Mosely or has Brewer played some LG (I know he filled in for Snee at RG)?
I wouldn't mind seeing Brewer get a shot at RT. I simply can't understand how Diehl hasn't been replaced yet. Could Brewer or Pugh really be any worse?
Giants love road graders at the RT spot (McKenzie and kinda Diehl) and Brewer at least looks the part. Pugh looks like he needs an offseason in the weight room, though his technique looked solid yesterday.
It seems to me that when he was in, it was for Beatty at LT.
I know that Brewer got some reps at RT, but the plays looked kind of funny (technical football phrase) so I really have no idea how he did.
Diehl had some massive breakdowns which would not be tolerated if he was a kid. Sometimes he whiffs even on just making some kind of contact.
It is getting kind of late in the day, especially for Pugh as a starting RT. The concussion has definitely set him back learning a position not his college position.
Unfortunately, filling in on the first unit for Snee has also set Brewer back at RT. Unless there was a legitimate possibility that Brewer was going to replace Snee as a 2013 starter, it would have been better to have used him at RT.
I believe the Giants over-rate versatility, and under-rate an actual mastery of a position.
or does it seem like the reporters who cover the Giants never ask any questions about David Diehl and why he's still our starting RT? It just seems kinda strange that our coaching staff is never asked to explain this decision...especially the way he's played for the past two seasons (and this preseason). Have I simply missed it?
I think you need to talk to all of them about it - I don't know how come you are the only one to see all this and ask the tough questions
RT was the position he was drafted for. If he can't be a starter there, he shouldn't be a starter at Guard either.
Pugh was drafted because they liked his apparent and prospective versatility. He is better equipped to play LT, either guard or center. If Brewer can't replace Diehl at some point, it could be more likely that Beatty plays RT and Pugh plays LT, or the Giants will draft another tackle and Pugh will move inside to replace Baas, Boothe, or Snee.
that was a weird response. I was asking a simple question as to why our beat reporters haven't asked about it. It's possible they have and I missed it in which case I'd love to see how Coughlin or Gilbride responded. Not sure why you had an attitude about that but ok.
They're not moving Beatty to RT. They just gave him $$$ and he looks really good.
They draft Pugh to be a T, and if he can't start at RT at some point, it makes the pick a head scratcher.
I just don't think you draft a guy in the 1st based on him being versatile.
just like how if they knew Pierre-Paul and Tuck were playing hurt through all of last season, why did they insist on playing them as if they were healthy without going to Kiwanuka, or any of the young players they raved about in preseason.
he's not effective inside at guard and has to really get it together at right tackle or Eli will be killed.
response from gidiefor about his previous comment.
You need mobile pullers who can get to the second level and hit moving targets, neither are things Diehl does well. If Pugh or Brewer can get past Diehl, he's on the bench as the swing tackle.
and he was a disaster then. The mistake was not cutting him in the off season and bringing in a vet who can still play to mentor Pugh.
Agreed. But hard to "get past Diehl" when you're not given any opportunities with the 1's.
Basically, you can accept this is as a sign that Pugh and Brewer aren't quite there yet, Diehl is probably holding them off, thus far.
DD is a better tackle than guard.
I know its incredible
I guess thats true it's just hard to imagine them being much worse.
assignments, play with the right focus, physicality, edge, etc, and an ability to limit their mistakes so they don't get Eli killed or blow up a game changing spot.
There's many components they must demonstrate in order to earn the coaches' trust, otherwise it appears they will continue to default to Diehl.
an assignment for an offensive lineman every now and then worse than getting completely owned every other play? I think you're putting the offense at a greater disadvantage with the guy who is physically incapable of handling the role since you're required to leave an extra TE or RB to help out on most passing plays. This means you're running your passing offense with one less weapon. I think you could also make the argument that you're putting Eli in more danger with the guy who continuously gets beaten rather than the one that misses an assignment 2 or 3 times a game.
is far less than what the coaches see every day. The sample size is out of whack, thus fans are left making big assumptions, etc.
It's not that I don't agree it appears to be time for Diehl to sit, but you can't outpoint the champion, you've got to soundly defeat him to win the belt.
For a Offensive Tackle all passing plays are blocked more or less the same way. A kick step is a kick step. His job is to block the LDE.
it's that the Giants would start anyone they perceive to be better than Diehl at this point. The salary cut told us everything we need to know about Diehl but as JonC writes, someone has to beat him out. That hasn't happened yet. As poorly as Diehl has played, nobody has convinced the coaching staff that they're presently better than Diehl.
I read a few posts yesterday about how Boothe is a better RT than Diehl at this point. It appears that some people don't remember how poorly Boothe played at RT.
They didn't with O'Hara or Diehl last year.
they gambled with O'Hara and Diehl, hoping that both had something left in the tank so they could concentrate on other areas. Knowing a players rate of decline is extraordinarily difficult - some guys are done at 30 while others make it to their mid-30's.
perception that Diehl won't get cut and people point to the amount of playing time he's gotten. If the staff shares the same concerns many here have, he's getting an extended look and if they don't think he's up to task, he most likely could be let go.
Veterans like him are cut every year, but I'm sure if the Giants do it, they will in the final cuts and have another veteran cut by another team ready to come in as his replacement.
My point was at the time, we already knew there were better options- Suebert at C and Locklear at RT...
When they put O'Hara & Diehl back in, the OL got worse.
Also- Let's be honest: TC and staff did not have a great year last year. Most notably not figuring out a way to get Wilson and Randle involved before it was too late.
but the Giants didn't know at the time that there were better options. In fact, I agree with the Giants in both instances because injuries obscured the real potential of both players. The Giants were logical when they assumed it was possible for both players to get healthy and play better than their alternatives.
Diehl at his best was better than Locklear, who turned out to be a journeyman for a reason. Looking at decisions with the benefit of knowing how they turned out is easy.
When Suebert moved into C for O'Hara, the OLINE got better.
When Locklear stepped in at RT, the OLINE got better.
This isn't opinion. It's fact. Everyone in the building knew it.
TC chose to go back to his vets.
What happens when the OLB blitzes? When the LDE and LDT stunt? When a DB comes from that side in a no-RB look?
Some people sound like they've never watched a football game. I agree that Diehl's best days are behind him, and yes, he's looked like a liability out there, but if we're aware of it, I'm pretty sure the coaches are, too.
What posters are forgetting is that when Diehl replaced Locklear last year, it was because Locklear was hurt. It wasn't out of some perceived loyalty to Diehl. The same with Diehl starting in preseason. The coaches are giving him first shot to win the job. It doesn't mean he's already won it.
Either you didn't read what I wrote or you're too obtuse to grasp what it means. TC had a reason to believe the Giants would get even better if the two vets played to the potential he perceived them to still possess.
That's probably true for O'Hara at the time. But it's sure as shit not true for Diehl....He is done.
current time. He needs to add more bulk to be an ideal RT. That said, it would be a really ballsy move to switch Beatty to RT and insert Pugh at LT. Can't see it happening, although it might be better than DD starting anywhere on the OL.
I am hoping that Brewer can beat out DD, leaving Pugh as the backup at both T spots.
As an aside, can anyone tell me why McCants is still on the team? I really know, it's because cut down time isn't here yet.
I agree that it appears that Diehl is done but we're forced to wait until a youngster is ready to do a better job.
That's where thing get funny with Pugh:
-If they feel he is best at LT, why draft him? You just paid Beatty $$, and is your best lineman.
-They said Pugh is a T. If he's not a RT, then why draft him?
-If he winds up at G, I have a problem drafting a G in the 1st who isn't a grader.
-If he isn't ready to play RT (which is probably the case), what is/was the plan at RT? We knew a long time ago that Diehl stunk.
I'm not trying to jump the gun here, but we had a real issue at RT last year, and I'm not sure what the plan is. What is the plan for Pugh? (and I know it's very early)
Where Rookies are wildly successful, a first round pick should at least push for a starting position. I'm not saying that this holds true in every case, but Pugh should be pushing for a starting job if he was A) First round pick B) A 4 year college starter. Diehl has been awful now for like 3 seasons, Pugh should be pushing for the RT spot. This is even more damning for James Brewer, who's been on this team for 2 full seasons and he can't sniff the starting lineup.
He's the best available on the roster to play that position. The loyalty arguments are beyond ridiculous and simply don't make sense. They claim that Coughlin is loyal to his veterans like Diehl but Eli is also one of Coughlin's vets (the one that Coughlin relies on the most) so if Coughlin is playing Diehl out of loyalty despite having better options available to him, then he's not being loyal to Eli by putting him at greater risk but that can't be true because Coughlin is loyal to his vets. See how easily that bullshit argument breaks down?
Further, if you have a problem with Diehl being the best option at RT on the roster, your beef is with Reese, not Coughlin.
setting him back a bit. To say he is not ready is very premature at this point.
serious 1st team reps at RT. I'd like to think they spend a 1st round pick knowing he could help them at RT this year. If that's not the case, not sure what they are thinking.
The Brewer situation doesn't look good.
could beat Diehl out in the coaches' eyes. Look at 2011. Diehl was horrendous at guard through the first 6 games of the season, worse than he's ever been at tackle. But it wasn't until David Baas got injured that Kevin Boothe got a chance to start.
And by that point, Boothe had already played reasonably well at G for the Giants during the regular season in previous seasons. He also outplayed Diehl during the preseason that year. What chance do Pugh or Brewer have, if a solid, experienced vet like Boothe couldn't beat Diehl out at a position Diehl is ill-suited for?
in the first exhibition game Pugh has played. The Giants clearly have a different view of the kid, and seem to feel that he could play anywhere along the line, including RT. But it's not a terrible thing to have a guy who can swing to LT if a need arises, even if he's on the bench for part of one season.
I posted here on BBI that no matter how well he plays in the pre-season, if Diehl is not injured he will start at RT.
It's Coughlin's way. Look what happened to Sean Locklear when Diehl came back in 2012. Locklear was in great shape and did a solid job IMO. Seriously, the Giants are better off going with
K-Mac at age 45 than Diehl at RT.