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Diehl v. Pugh

Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 1:58 pm
Last night was another exhibit of why David Diehl is no longer a capable starting offensive lineman in the NFL. I know Pugh was hurt last week but I think it's imperative that Pugh gets work at RT during practice with the first team this week and gets an opportunity to start the next game. We obviously drafted him b/c of the issues we've had with our oline the last two seasons so it's about time our first round pick got a chance to show what he can do.

Now before the crazies come out and say "well, the coaching staff gets to see him every day so they obviously know better," all I'm saying is to give him the OPPORTUNITY in the preseason. As Reese has said in the past, this team expects their top two picks to come in and contribute right away. We need to find out if we have a real solution at RT b/c David Diehl is clearly no longer than answer.

Also, depending on the severity of the Baas injury last night, it's very possible DD will be moved to LG for the foreseeable future anyway while Boothe fills in at Center. If so, that will give Pugh his shot anyway. But either way, we need to find out if he's ready to start BEFORE the beginning of the season.
Gilbride is not putting Diehl in a position to succeed..  
Davisian : 8/19/2013 2:00 pm : link
...
Moving Diehl...  
rptl530 : 8/19/2013 2:01 pm : link
to LG would be a disaster.
Davisian  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 2:02 pm : link
While I know you're sarcastic comment was made in jest, there is an actual point to be made there, so thank you. For those that watched the game last night, it seemed like Gilbride actually did give Diehl significant amount of help from both the TE's and the RB's. This is simply another reason why it's important for improved play from our RT. Allowing us to play a 1 on 1 matchup on that side will give us an extra weapon in the passing game.
no other RT would need some chips from the TE's and/or backs.  
Davisian : 8/19/2013 2:04 pm : link
Just Diehl..
If you don't give Diehl help  
old timer : 8/19/2013 2:04 pm : link
Eli will be killed.
Did this topic really need another thread?  
Section331 : 8/19/2013 2:06 pm : link
There is already a rather lengthy discussion going. It's not as if this thread adds anything illuminating to the debate.
old timer  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 2:06 pm : link
exactly my point. With Diehl at RT it's pretty much a necessity. We need to see what Pugh is capable of.
Diehl is somehow a worse LG than RT/LT, so at first thought,  
Riggies : 8/19/2013 2:10 pm : link
I want to cringe, but Eli handles pressure from the left side better generally than he does the right, so maybe, in an odd way, it would work out for the "best" (of the realistic options) for him to be slotted there for awhile, while Boothe covers for Baas at C.
Was hoping Brewer could man RT this year  
Steve in South Jersey : 8/19/2013 2:11 pm : link
Pugh needs a year of learning and work the weight room. If Brewer isn't a short term answer then the Giants need to go with Diehl and help him with game planning and help from the TE and RB.
Getting pretty sad to see DD out there  
bronxgiant : 8/19/2013 2:13 pm : link
getting beaten like a punched drunk boxer. He will get Eli hurt. Just can't see why he is still allowed out there.
Why would only the crazies  
bob in tx : 8/19/2013 2:14 pm : link
say " ...the coaching staff sees him in practice every day and knows better...". I would think the smarties would be saying that.
bob in tx  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 2:16 pm : link
b/c almost no OT on an NFL roster could possibly play worse than the way DD has looked over the last 2 seasons.
the guy has contributed a lot to the Giants organization  
islander1 : 8/19/2013 2:17 pm : link
but man...he's toast. burnt toast. It's time....even if it means we HAVE to roll out a first round rookie. At least he'll move his feet?
Pugh  
George : 8/19/2013 2:25 pm : link
There's no way the Giants' coaching staff was going to put Justin Pugh in with the first team OL after he'd missed significant practice time in August and had never played in an NFL game before. They had to play him with the 2nd team, just to make sure he wouldn't get the QB killed.

That said, I thought he played quite well - better than did David Diehl.

Pugh might not get a look with the 1st team vs. the J-E-T-S, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him out there in our last preseason game, just to see how he fares against the Big Boys.

I predict he will replace DD at RT by Game Three of the regular season.
I have a feeling we may see a lot of Brewer at RT  
BigBluePrestige : 8/19/2013 2:26 pm : link
next week.
Would DD necessarily get the nod at LG  
Beer Man : 8/19/2013 2:29 pm : link
or would it be Brewer or Mosley?
is Pugh even next in line at RT?  
GIANTSr01 : 8/19/2013 2:34 pm : link
or is Brewer? Also, if they decide to move Boothe to center, who plays LG? Mosely or has Brewer played some LG (I know he filled in for Snee at RG)?
Honestly  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 2:36 pm : link
I wouldn't mind seeing Brewer get a shot at RT. I simply can't understand how Diehl hasn't been replaced yet. Could Brewer or Pugh really be any worse?
I can see Brewer as the #2 RT  
GIANTSr01 : 8/19/2013 2:39 pm : link
Giants love road graders at the RT spot (McKenzie and kinda Diehl) and Brewer at least looks the part. Pugh looks like he needs an offseason in the weight room, though his technique looked solid yesterday.
Did Pugh even play at RT?  
Bob in Newburgh : 8/19/2013 2:49 pm : link
It seems to me that when he was in, it was for Beatty at LT.

I know that Brewer got some reps at RT, but the plays looked kind of funny (technical football phrase) so I really have no idea how he did.

Diehl had some massive breakdowns which would not be tolerated if he was a kid. Sometimes he whiffs even on just making some kind of contact.

It is getting kind of late in the day, especially for Pugh as a starting RT. The concussion has definitely set him back learning a position not his college position.

Unfortunately, filling in on the first unit for Snee has also set Brewer back at RT. Unless there was a legitimate possibility that Brewer was going to replace Snee as a 2013 starter, it would have been better to have used him at RT.

I believe the Giants over-rate versatility, and under-rate an actual mastery of a position.
Is it me  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 2:53 pm : link
or does it seem like the reporters who cover the Giants never ask any questions about David Diehl and why he's still our starting RT? It just seems kinda strange that our coaching staff is never asked to explain this decision...especially the way he's played for the past two seasons (and this preseason). Have I simply missed it?
Yes Josh  
gidiefor : 8/19/2013 2:56 pm : link
I think you need to talk to all of them about it - I don't know how come you are the only one to see all this and ask the tough questions
Brewer needs to beat out Diehl  
Jupiter : 8/19/2013 3:08 pm : link
RT was the position he was drafted for. If he can't be a starter there, he shouldn't be a starter at Guard either.

Pugh was drafted because they liked his apparent and prospective versatility. He is better equipped to play LT, either guard or center. If Brewer can't replace Diehl at some point, it could be more likely that Beatty plays RT and Pugh plays LT, or the Giants will draft another tackle and Pugh will move inside to replace Baas, Boothe, or Snee.
gidiefor  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 3:11 pm : link
that was a weird response. I was asking a simple question as to why our beat reporters haven't asked about it. It's possible they have and I missed it in which case I'd love to see how Coughlin or Gilbride responded. Not sure why you had an attitude about that but ok.
Jupiter...  
drkenneth : 8/19/2013 3:14 pm : link
They're not moving Beatty to RT. They just gave him $$$ and he looks really good.

They draft Pugh to be a T, and if he can't start at RT at some point, it makes the pick a head scratcher.

I just don't think you draft a guy in the 1st based on him being versatile.
It would be a fair question to ask,  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/19/2013 3:16 pm : link
just like how if they knew Pierre-Paul and Tuck were playing hurt through all of last season, why did they insist on playing them as if they were healthy without going to Kiwanuka, or any of the young players they raved about in preseason.
His best position is left tackle  
PeterS : 8/19/2013 4:17 pm : link
he's not effective inside at guard and has to really get it together at right tackle or Eli will be killed.
Still waiting for a  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 4:25 pm : link
response from gidiefor about his previous comment.
no Diehl at OG  
JonC : 8/19/2013 4:26 pm : link
You need mobile pullers who can get to the second level and hit moving targets, neither are things Diehl does well. If Pugh or Brewer can get past Diehl, he's on the bench as the swing tackle.
They tried Diehl at guard two years ago  
Ira : 8/19/2013 4:28 pm : link
and he was a disaster then. The mistake was not cutting him in the off season and bringing in a vet who can still play to mentor Pugh.
JonC  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 4:30 pm : link
Agreed. But hard to "get past Diehl" when you're not given any opportunities with the 1's.
Players earn opportunities in practice  
JonC : 8/19/2013 4:31 pm : link
Basically, you can accept this is as a sign that Pugh and Brewer aren't quite there yet, Diehl is probably holding them off, thus far.
re  
Rob_MTL : 8/19/2013 4:40 pm : link
DD is a better tackle than guard.

I know its incredible
JonC  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 4:42 pm : link
I guess thats true it's just hard to imagine them being much worse.
Young players, especially, have to prove they know their  
JonC : 8/19/2013 4:45 pm : link
assignments, play with the right focus, physicality, edge, etc, and an ability to limit their mistakes so they don't get Eli killed or blow up a game changing spot.

There's many components they must demonstrate in order to earn the coaches' trust, otherwise it appears they will continue to default to Diehl.
But is blowing  
Josh in the City : 8/19/2013 4:52 pm : link
an assignment for an offensive lineman every now and then worse than getting completely owned every other play? I think you're putting the offense at a greater disadvantage with the guy who is physically incapable of handling the role since you're required to leave an extra TE or RB to help out on most passing plays. This means you're running your passing offense with one less weapon. I think you could also make the argument that you're putting Eli in more danger with the guy who continuously gets beaten rather than the one that misses an assignment 2 or 3 times a game.
Based on what you see in a few exhibition game snaps  
JonC : 8/19/2013 4:57 pm : link
is far less than what the coaches see every day. The sample size is out of whack, thus fans are left making big assumptions, etc.

It's not that I don't agree it appears to be time for Diehl to sit, but you can't outpoint the champion, you've got to soundly defeat him to win the belt.
JonC  
Rob_MTL : 8/19/2013 5:14 pm : link
For a Offensive Tackle all passing plays are blocked more or less the same way. A kick step is a kick step. His job is to block the LDE.
It's not remotely that simple  
JonC : 9:03 am : link
.
If there is one thing I know with certainty  
Phil from WNY : 10:26 am : link
it's that the Giants would start anyone they perceive to be better than Diehl at this point. The salary cut told us everything we need to know about Diehl but as JonC writes, someone has to beat him out. That hasn't happened yet. As poorly as Diehl has played, nobody has convinced the coaching staff that they're presently better than Diehl.

I read a few posts yesterday about how Boothe is a better RT than Diehl at this point. It appears that some people don't remember how poorly Boothe played at RT.
Phil- But that's the question...  
drkenneth : 10:28 am : link
Would they?

They didn't with O'Hara or Diehl last year.
dr  
Phil from WNY : 10:32 am : link
they gambled with O'Hara and Diehl, hoping that both had something left in the tank so they could concentrate on other areas. Knowing a players rate of decline is extraordinarily difficult - some guys are done at 30 while others make it to their mid-30's.
It is almost a unanimous...  
perception that Diehl won't get cut and people point to the amount of playing time he's gotten. If the staff shares the same concerns many here have, he's getting an extended look and if they don't think he's up to task, he most likely could be let go.

Veterans like him are cut every year, but I'm sure if the Giants do it, they will in the final cuts and have another veteran cut by another team ready to come in as his replacement.
Phil-  
drkenneth : 10:38 am : link
My point was at the time, we already knew there were better options- Suebert at C and Locklear at RT...

When they put O'Hara & Diehl back in, the OL got worse.

Also- Let's be honest: TC and staff did not have a great year last year. Most notably not figuring out a way to get Wilson and Randle involved before it was too late.
You may have known  
Phil from WNY : 10:43 am : link
but the Giants didn't know at the time that there were better options. In fact, I agree with the Giants in both instances because injuries obscured the real potential of both players. The Giants were logical when they assumed it was possible for both players to get healthy and play better than their alternatives.

Diehl at his best was better than Locklear, who turned out to be a journeyman for a reason. Looking at decisions with the benefit of knowing how they turned out is easy.
Phil-  
drkenneth : 10:45 am : link
When Suebert moved into C for O'Hara, the OLINE got better.

When Locklear stepped in at RT, the OLINE got better.

This isn't opinion. It's fact. Everyone in the building knew it.

TC chose to go back to his vets.
Diehl's job is "only" to block the LDE?  
Section331 : 10:46 am : link
What happens when the OLB blitzes? When the LDE and LDT stunt? When a DB comes from that side in a no-RB look?

Some people sound like they've never watched a football game. I agree that Diehl's best days are behind him, and yes, he's looked like a liability out there, but if we're aware of it, I'm pretty sure the coaches are, too.

What posters are forgetting is that when Diehl replaced Locklear last year, it was because Locklear was hurt. It wasn't out of some perceived loyalty to Diehl. The same with Diehl starting in preseason. The coaches are giving him first shot to win the job. It doesn't mean he's already won it.
dr  
Phil from WNY : 10:48 am : link
Either you didn't read what I wrote or you're too obtuse to grasp what it means. TC had a reason to believe the Giants would get even better if the two vets played to the potential he perceived them to still possess.
Phil....Gotcha  
drkenneth : 10:55 am : link
That's probably true for O'Hara at the time. But it's sure as shit not true for Diehl....He is done.
I agree with Jupiter that Pugh seems more suited to LT than RT at the  
yatqb : 10:58 am : link
current time. He needs to add more bulk to be an ideal RT. That said, it would be a really ballsy move to switch Beatty to RT and insert Pugh at LT. Can't see it happening, although it might be better than DD starting anywhere on the OL.

I am hoping that Brewer can beat out DD, leaving Pugh as the backup at both T spots.

As an aside, can anyone tell me why McCants is still on the team? I really know, it's because cut down time isn't here yet.
dr  
Phil from WNY : 11:01 am : link
I agree that it appears that Diehl is done but we're forced to wait until a youngster is ready to do a better job.
Phil...Agreed  
drkenneth : 11:05 am : link
Yatqb:

That's where thing get funny with Pugh:

-If they feel he is best at LT, why draft him? You just paid Beatty $$, and is your best lineman.

-They said Pugh is a T. If he's not a RT, then why draft him?

-If he winds up at G, I have a problem drafting a G in the 1st who isn't a grader.

-If he isn't ready to play RT (which is probably the case), what is/was the plan at RT? We knew a long time ago that Diehl stunk.

I'm not trying to jump the gun here, but we had a real issue at RT last year, and I'm not sure what the plan is. What is the plan for Pugh? (and I know it's very early)
In today's NFL  
JoeyBigBlue : 11:13 am : link
Where Rookies are wildly successful, a first round pick should at least push for a starting position. I'm not saying that this holds true in every case, but Pugh should be pushing for a starting job if he was A) First round pick B) A 4 year college starter. Diehl has been awful now for like 3 seasons, Pugh should be pushing for the RT spot. This is even more damning for James Brewer, who's been on this team for 2 full seasons and he can't sniff the starting lineup.
If Diehl is playing right tackle  
RB^2 : 11:16 am : link
He's the best available on the roster to play that position. The loyalty arguments are beyond ridiculous and simply don't make sense. They claim that Coughlin is loyal to his veterans like Diehl but Eli is also one of Coughlin's vets (the one that Coughlin relies on the most) so if Coughlin is playing Diehl out of loyalty despite having better options available to him, then he's not being loyal to Eli by putting him at greater risk but that can't be true because Coughlin is loyal to his vets. See how easily that bullshit argument breaks down?

Further, if you have a problem with Diehl being the best option at RT on the roster, your beef is with Reese, not Coughlin.
Let's keep in mind that Pugh missed time to injury,  
Section331 : 11:17 am : link
setting him back a bit. To say he is not ready is very premature at this point.
Totally agree it's early. I would expect Pugh to start getting  
drkenneth : 11:21 am : link
serious 1st team reps at RT. I'd like to think they spend a 1st round pick knowing he could help them at RT this year. If that's not the case, not sure what they are thinking.

The Brewer situation doesn't look good.
I have doubts that a young player  
could beat Diehl out in the coaches' eyes. Look at 2011. Diehl was horrendous at guard through the first 6 games of the season, worse than he's ever been at tackle. But it wasn't until David Baas got injured that Kevin Boothe got a chance to start.

And by that point, Boothe had already played reasonably well at G for the Giants during the regular season in previous seasons. He also outplayed Diehl during the preseason that year. What chance do Pugh or Brewer have, if a solid, experienced vet like Boothe couldn't beat Diehl out at a position Diehl is ill-suited for?
drk, I'm merely going by what my eyeballs are telling me  
yatqb : 12:10 pm : link
in the first exhibition game Pugh has played. The Giants clearly have a different view of the kid, and seem to feel that he could play anywhere along the line, including RT. But it's not a terrible thing to have a guy who can swing to LT if a need arises, even if he's on the bench for part of one season.
When Pugh was drafted  
mrvax : 12:13 pm : link
I posted here on BBI that no matter how well he plays in the pre-season, if Diehl is not injured he will start at RT.

It's Coughlin's way. Look what happened to Sean Locklear when Diehl came back in 2012. Locklear was in great shape and did a solid job IMO. Seriously, the Giants are better off going with
K-Mac at age 45 than Diehl at RT.
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