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Roster Talk: Patterson, Austin, Kuhn -who sticks?

UberAlias : 8/23/2013 9:16 am
They have been talking like Kuhn may be close to coming off the PUP list, which would make little sense if it actually happened and would likely only result in his being let go.

How does everyone see this playing out? Who of the three sticks, and who drops?

I think they try and find a way to keep all 3. Kuhn will stay on PUP despite reports. I think Austin is showing just enough to keep them intrigued, and such a high draft pick would be hard to part ways with.

The one thing this team will not let happen this year is getting a couple of injuries and finding themselves short on big bodies with guys wearing down down the stretch. My guess is they'll take their chances elsewhere on the roster and find a way to keep a few extra plates at the big boy table.
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If they manage to lose Kuhn under the present scenario  
Bob in Newburgh : 8/23/2013 1:13 pm : link
Question the competence of Reese and the medical staff and the basic intelligence of Kuhn himself. So you want to be unemployed rather than collecting NFL minimum salary?

The fallacy of the logic of the cut Austin now crowd is treating him as a 3rd season player rather than the 2nd year player that the torn pec in rookie season has made him. Of course I am sure in their own minds they believe that Austin (a DT no less) should have gutted it out and played (competently no less) through that injury.
Greg, Kuhn getting blown off the line"  
Great White Ghost : 8/23/2013 1:14 pm : link
is total fabricated bullshit.He consistently drew double teams
and collapsed the pocket. Don't know what you were watching but it clearly wasn't Kuhn.Go back and watch some film.
That last spot will be tough  
bc4life : 8/23/2013 1:17 pm : link
Patterson still looks like he has a few years left.

But, Austin and Kuhn could really be valuable in the very near future. I think it comes down to Austin v. Kuhn. While Austin was drafted high - Kuhn played last year and was developing fairly nicely. If I had to bet (guess) - it'd be Austin by a nose.

Whoever gets cut will be scooped up in a day or so.
GWG  
bc4life : 8/23/2013 1:23 pm : link
Notwithstanding his lack of experience and the fact he was thrown in there last year, all the reports I saw were that he was contributing and improving.
what about jenkins?  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 1:31 pm : link
is he living up to the billing?
Bob: If they manage to lose Kuhn under the present scenario...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/23/2013 1:40 pm : link
... it will probably be because they want to. I don't think that's the case, so he stays on PUP.

As for whether a PUP'd player who passes a physical during pre-season must be activated, I've never heard of any such rule. I think it would be impractical to enforce it. In Kuhn's case, it's not an issue unless the team is dumb enough to give him a physical - and pass him - in the next week. Once he's on inactive PUP, it's a non-issue until Week 7.
BB56: I think Herzlich's main edge over Bosworth is position.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/23/2013 1:44 pm : link
Somebody has to back up Connor. There's been talk at various times about Rivers or Curry being able to play the MIKE, but I haven't seen much proof.
alligatorpie :  
Rob_MTL : 8/23/2013 1:45 pm : link
Quote:
hank being potentially a more mobile cofield type (gets horizontal and runs better, but not as good at point of attack yet)


That is impossible.

40Y dash
B. Cofield 4.95

J. Hankins 5.31
------------------
20-Yard Shuttle
B. Cofield 4.35 (Fastest time)

J. Hankins 4.61
------------------
3-Cone Drill
B. Cofield 7.43 (2nd Fastest time)

J. Hankins 7.59
GWG is right  
BronxBob : 8/23/2013 1:56 pm : link
Kuhn frequently drew double teams. That in itself says something all else aside.
BBB: Because Kuhn's situation gives them a de facto expanded roster  
Bob in Newburgh : 8/23/2013 2:10 pm : link
at a most reasonable cost:

I can think of no scenario that they would want to lose Kuhn at this time.

I would schedule his next comprehensive physical after the season has begun.
Another Factor  
Samiam : 8/23/2013 2:16 pm : link
I wonder if any of the extra DTs (or DEs for that matter) have trade value. You won't get much for almost all of them but you might get a light round pick for somebody. And, if you can't get a late round pick for any of them, then clearly we are overrating them. Clubs may want to pick someone up on waivers but if these guys are any good, then multiple clubs would want someone and be willing to offer something even if its a pick 2 years from now.
this could change of course bur this is how I see it  
Rob_MTL : 8/23/2013 2:27 pm : link
Joseph - Jenkins
Rodgers - Patterson
Hankins (There's no rush to give him reps)
Austin  
Dragon : 8/23/2013 3:22 pm : link
Is IMO a lock to make this team since in his rookie year he made 8 total tackles much like Joseph in his rookie year. Yes joseph did it in 6 games while Austin did it in eight but he was hurting with the back problem. They are both second round draft picks who in the first year did very little yes I know Austin missed his rookie season due to injury. Now no matter how much you like or dislike Rogers he is 34 and 350 pounds how many DT's last a full year with those numbers to work with. He is also being used as the jumbo package with Joseph but don't forget that we also have a 320 pound 2nd round draft pick Hank who is going to need to play this same role this year. As for this Jumbo package it sounds great but if you keep Joseph and Rogers/Hank on all first downs what will offenses start to do on first downs? We all seem to agree that Joseph and Jenkins are our starters today with a rotation of Hank and Rogers/Austin.

Patterson for all the hype was a street pick-up who has done ok but he is not going to cause Austin to loose a roster spot (age, injury, salary & upside). Kuhn without the injury more than likely allows the team not to sign Patterson and has yet to practice looks more like a week six or beyond before anything happens with him. So in final if we keep 5 DT's Joseph, Jenkins, Hank, Rogers & Austin or four then Rogers is replaced by the Hank and Austin combo.
barring injury in the last two games  
WeatherMan : 8/23/2013 3:26 pm : link
I think Patterson may be on the outside looking in. Joseph, Jenkins, Rogers, and Hankins make the team, Kuhn hopefully stays on PUP to extend his rehab and give us a midseason injury replacement option. Presuming we keep 5 DTs on the 53 man, not common but a very viable option this year, if the choice comes down to an aging Patterson with a significant injury history vs. a recent 2nd round pick with high upside in Austin I just don't see them cutting bait on Marvin yet. That said, injuries could very well settle this decision for us over the next couple weeks.
rob -sorry just got back  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 3:39 pm : link
1. we got cofield long after his college and pro-day measurements...

2. watch the college tape on hank, hank got horizontal really well for a big player in college - tackling in wide space quicker that you would think.

much better than cofield did while he was here. not necessarily measured in the pre-draft numbers. cofield was great...but not a huge player in space once people got past him area.

now, conversly, hank has not learned leverage (as well as cofield had i mean...YET), but he will.

in the meantime, we tend to think that heavier players are nose types or at least primarily run defenders, "cloggers" and that's just not really logical. each player is different.

conversely, this team probably wants EACH and every of its DL to hold up vs a blocker or two AT TIMES...

the question is how to maximize the line play in the context of the overall D and how to use the extra skills that each has as well at times.

I see austin making this roster...  
Torrag : 8/23/2013 3:45 pm : link
not just because he's a 2nd rounder. He's played better so far this go round. I agree he couldnt play worse but there is a lot of potential there if it can be tapped. The guy was drawing comparisons to Tommie Harris coming out(pre injury Tommie Harris).

So to me it's between Patterson and Kuhn. Sorry Markus I'm going with the veteran.
here is how I see the DTs for now  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 3:48 pm : link
Cloggers:
Rogers
Okam

Generalised interior Run and Pass defenders:
Joseph

Strong Mobile DTs that 'could play end in a 3/4 or at the the 3 in a 5-2 types (cofield types):
Jenkins
Hankins

3 tech types
Austin
Patterson

run defending DT type
Kuhn








not as roster list  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 3:50 pm : link
but just types list
early mocks I had us drafting a pure NT or zero player  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 4:06 pm : link
but was later convinced that a type like Hank would be more useful.

rogers being so old and okam maybe not making the team, next year I could really see drafting a pure NT type and thus allowing for more varied alignments.

I see hank more as a 3"+" type, that is, a blend of mobility and power probably best not asked to hold two gaps all day.

joseph seems a blended type as well, albeit more to the power side, but still not a pure NT type.

austin a big one gapper...
alligatorpie :  
Rob_MTL : 8/23/2013 4:19 pm : link
That is interesting, a 2 down run-plugger is more athletic than a player that finished tops (fastest) in his draft class.

Quote:
.but not a huge player in space once people got past him area.

Hes the polar opposite of your description. Cofield had incredible stamina, he never ever gave up on a play. I've seen him chase 20+yards down the field.

Sorry alligatorpie , you don't know what your talking about.

rob  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 4:24 pm : link
i am talking about getting horizontal to make a play (see, recent, LT thread...no not comparing the players)

dont remember seeing barry to that and make tackles that way very often at all.

great player barry cofield...just different.

right now hank is a fresh rookie and may not yet have the savvy to know when and how to apply the great leverage that barry used,

but the college tape on hank shows him making some great tackles behind the line in space.

thats apples to oranges vs. "chasing down a play 20 yards downfield"
call it 'change of direction'  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 4:39 pm : link
if you want...sure 'barrys shuttle' or what have you, but hank may have more upside long term in the whole change of direction area which bodes well for aggressive rushing schemes.

not knocking the need to hold up your spot as well, which barry was effing great at...hank will need to work on that as almost any rookie does in the NFL.
alligatorpie  
Rob_MTL : 8/23/2013 4:39 pm : link
Quote:
but the college tape on hank shows him making some great tackles behind the line in space


In space is in space. Do you mean stretching a play out?
no  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 4:45 pm : link
for a large-ish DT...once one is past the guard of whomever is blocking...

the play is flowing and a skill player (RB.QB other) is running past your 330lbs....

one may need to suddenly fall or drop or get horizontal to make the tackle

>in a direction OPPOSITE your momentums direction<..or at least not aligned with it.

Hanks tape seems just loaded with this. rare for a big guy.

LT was the best ever at this
how many times have you seen a powerful DT get push  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 4:47 pm : link
but the RB just squirts by him because the DT cannot adjust fast enough or wont leave his feet?

hank does it on well, makes those plays, on tape in college at least.
i dont understand what you mean  
Rob_MTL : 8/23/2013 4:51 pm : link
do you have video or something?
just pointing out  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 4:54 pm : link
one does not neccesarily tie down a DT to 'clogger' just because they are large.

if you can mix things up with multiple type players...or at least pair a hank or jenk or joeseph with an even bigger type (rogers, okam) and see what they can do attacking at times, do that.

but, by all means the clogging is a required skill as well..
rob, youtube hank 2012 highlights  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 4:55 pm : link
hank seems to show good change of direction skills while tackling
Dump Paimter and Carr  
BlueHurricane : 8/23/2013 5:19 pm : link
Keep Nassib as E's backup. If he get hurt we are fucked anyway. There is your roster spot to keep both Austin and Patterson.
just opening a discussion refining our views of 'types of DTs'  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 5:23 pm : link
the cofield/hank/jenk as a '3/4 DE type DT' (plays tall and may need to get horizontal to make a play)

for example, JPP is (still lets hope) great at getting horizontal to make plays for a large man

vs

the sapp type: short stumpy legs, very quick feet can stay on his feet and run a player down while making tight turns

(austin or patterson??)

vs the nose type

or just generally tough DT type

Stop it already  
Rob_MTL : 8/23/2013 5:41 pm : link
you're not making any sense.
BlueHurricane: I'm already using Carr's spot...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/23/2013 5:56 pm : link
...to keep one of the dinged draftees (Moore and Taylor) off IR.
There is no point in keeping Patterson  
nygirlie : 8/23/2013 6:49 pm : link
as an inactive 5th DT. That position (if there is one) is reserved for a youngster with potential e.g. Austin. If Patterson can not win the 3rd DT position (the 4th is reserved for Hankins) he will be cut. So it is really between Rogers and Patterson and Rogers is manifestly winning.
exactly  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 7:02 pm : link
cannot have a rational draft strategy and or build a regular contender with too many old players.

now, which of the vet linebackers make the team?
having said that  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 7:04 pm : link
keeping more active DTs on a gameday is an idea.

for gods sake DTs are in serious action on every darn play
The NFL really needs to expand the rosters even more.  
BlueHurricane : 8/23/2013 7:11 pm : link
Teams do not have enough spots to keep enough guys to make it through a season.
another thing - Ojomo  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 7:38 pm : link
listed probably rookie weight of 6'4" and 270 as a DE, one of our larger ones.

people talk about pro conditioning improving players, he is one.

look at his high and lowlights of 2012 preseason on youtube.

it was not just a few sacks, the guy made a crapload of plays, including run defense plays.

towards the end see one vs the Pats where he has two blockers (a tackle and a guard?) on him and reaches out and grabs the runner for a loss. all sorts of plays.

at that size, or larger, he also a candidate to take an inside spot on those 4th and very long plays.

hustle all day.

tracy to 'LB' unit.
Tuck and Kiwi are both 30 years old  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 7:42 pm : link
moore and tracy are fairly darn skinny, good players, but 'types'.

ojomo is a different type, a bit heavier, a hustle player
fairly sure ojomo lined up at DT  
alligatorpie : 8/23/2013 7:58 pm : link
at one point vs the colts and showed that he can make plays getting low and high
what he means by "hoizontal" is  
Hades07 : 8/23/2013 9:18 pm : link
Is pursuing the runner parallel to the line of scrimmage once you get penetration I think. Often DT may get good penetration, but are not athletic enough to pursue a RB, preventing him from simply going around the penetration.
Austin is being kept(if and for the same reason  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/23/2013 9:20 pm : link
he was drafted. Potential. Who knows what he's shown in practice but he's at best the 5th DT. Pretending this isn't about his draft status is just silly. If he was a 6th or 7th round pick he'd be cut if he didn't show progress.

Right now he's not better than two guys who both didn't play last year. One who is 34 with a million miles of tread on his tires and the other who had brain surgery.
Mike Patterson is turning 30 this year  
Rob_MTL : 8/23/2013 10:11 pm : link
Between 2005 and 2011, he only missed 2 games out of 110. He's very durable and he knows the division.
somebody will get injured soon  
Spock : 8/23/2013 10:22 pm : link
so I'm sure this point will be moot. Stay tuned.
Cofield  
Paul in Brooklyn : 8/23/2013 11:12 pm : link
was one of the more athletic DTs we've ever had. It was a credit to his abilities that he was able to perform well as a NT, but I definitely wouldn't put him in the space-eater/lane clogger category. Cofield and Hankins aren't really comparable players. In terms of speed and agility, Cofield is pretty far ahead of Hankins.
cofield was great  
alligatorpie : 8/24/2013 7:59 am : link
but i think hank will surprise in this area, to the upside.

by horizontal I mean the ability to get ones body literally horizontal, level as opposed to plumb for you builders, if and when needed to make a tackle and suddenly.

and I agree, I would not categorize either as 'cloggers', per se although cofield became fairly stout in there and hank will also.
alli  
Hades07 : 8/24/2013 9:35 am : link
Now you are making no sense. You are saying he is good at falling down? I don't think we will see the sudden fall drill at the combine anytime soon though.
Like this, maybe?  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/24/2013 9:44 am : link

Big Hank gettin' horizontal against recent Giant Keith Carlos.
I think the Giants should PUP JPP  
nomad1986 : 8/24/2013 9:50 am : link
so they can keep an extra DL for the first 6 games and get JPP 100% healthy for the back half of the season when the Giants usually struggle to make the playoffs. If all the DL's stay healthy after 6 games when they bring JPP back they can decide who has the least value after 6 games that matter.
not a bad idea  
alligatorpie : 8/24/2013 11:28 am : link
and look at the 2nd half this year, its the tough half schedule wise.

and thx blogger, yes, players like JPP and LT 'get or got horizontal' often to make plays....as a change of direction skill or a way to extend ones reach given a split second while moving quickly (at 320lbs in some cases)

some may call it falling down, but some great players have left their feet to make great plays...see the tapes

others (sapp??) can change direction while staying on those little stubby legs they have ;-0
Kuhn stays on PUP  
Steve in South Jersey : 8/24/2013 11:35 am : link
gives the Giants insurance against DT injuries.

I think Patterson vs Austin is decided with tonight's game.
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