Roster Talk: Patterson, Austin, Kuhn -who sticks?

I don't understand the way this coaching staff thinks sometimes, i.e. the fascination with Diehl, and even bringing Hynoski off PUP. But it would be unreal if they brought Kuhn off PUP less than a year after tearing his ACL, and while being stacked at DL.

Assuming Kuhn stays on the PUP, I'd go with Patterson over Austin, but I'm not sure there is room for either frankly. Austin might actually have some trade value, although the max I think we'd get is a sixth, and I wouldn't be surprised if we got nothing.

People claim he can be a run-plugger, but I've never seen any evidence of it. Gets blown off the LOS consistently as if he were on roller skates.

Id go with Linval, Jenkins, Hank, Rogers, Patterson, Kuhn....Austin's time is up. You have to cut your losses. This guy was out of football for a year before we drafted him and hasnt done one thing to make me say " well maybe he will breakout" Everytime hes out there its the same old shit.

Id keep the 300 pounders like Patterson and Rogers over him. At least they both have NFL experience when Austin has preseason experience.

Cut Austin already and admit he didnt work out as planned. He will catch on somewhere MAYBE, but our DLine and DE's is a position where we need to excel at and we have better players then him at the time.Its a numbers game. Kuhn has shown me more then Austin ever has.

and batting down throws. What has Marv shown us? (crickets)

Means 11 DL, 6 LB, 9 DB for 26 total. That means 3 QB, 3 RB, 1 FB, 5 WR, 3 TE, 9 OL for 24 total. It's possible but means either the 5th CB or 5th safety is cut. Hard to see that. I think that have to make a choice there and go with 5 DTs. Don't know who I'd choose.

He's by far the best FB on the team and will be a big factor in the running game.

As for Kuhn, at this point it doesn't make sense to take him off PUP. But if you're keeping him on PUP, you don't keep Austin and Patterson (with Joseph, Jenkins, Rogers, and Hankins also on the final 53). With the top 4 healthy, those 2 would likely both be inactive weekly. And Kuhn would be laying in wait in case one of the 5 succumb to injury.

One thing to keep in mind, is that the final few spots often come down to special teams play. I'm pretty sure Austin has played some STs, but not sure about Patterson. Early in the season it could also lead to Austin being active over Hankins too (unless Hankins been on STs?)

If he's activated hes gone.

round pick rookie with no conditioning program last year. I think the team would be foolish not to stash him with the depth we now
have at DT. PUP then IR him if no firther injuries come after week 4.

Austin is making the roster, he was a second round oick and hes coming into his 3rd year. He has played well this preseason, otherwise I might think they would cut ties. But how long was Sinirice Moss on this team given he never showed a thing?. Giants have a tendency for not giving up on their top pick investments.

Patterson is the odd man out, I think they brought him in to lush the younger guys harder. Not expecting he may play as well as he has. I think Rogers makes it over him as that veteran DT, along with Jenkins. Their nit cutting Kuhn or Austin over Patterson.

2nd and 3rd team OL's and he still doesnt do anything. Why are we paying him. Just bc he was a 2nd rd pick doesnt give him more of an edge. We took a gamble and lost. It happens. Believe me you wont see Marvin Austin on the highlight reel playing for another team. Maybe if you stop at a Walmart in a few months you will see him

They really do play different positions. So although we tend to look at it from the perspective of how many DTs, I'm not sure the team looks at it this way. It would be like looking at WRs and forgetting to keep a backup slot.

remember, when he was drafted, they thought his biggest impact would be rumbling down on kickoff coverage and destroying people ahead of him. He got in the games because of injuries at DT. I think the Giants still like him and will probably keep him on PUP so they can delay the decision to bring him back.

I think Austin will be given one more year to prove himself. Patterson is the odd man out.

he's looked good in preseason and has been close to Patterson's level. Youth gives him the edge.

If Kuhn is activated, he is gone, no doubt. But it makes no sense to activate him. He's a free-bee.

We have alot of DTs, but we a have a desparate need for high quality tackles

Sounds crazy, but if managent thinks that Kuhns ceiling is higher than those on the roster, I'm all for activating him.

This team does want to be able to do more things with 3-4 type looks. Now granted, we have two other guys who can, but there are things Patterson can do which Austin can't.

if that's the case wouldn't Austin have the edge?

Cloggers
Joseph
Rogers
Hankins
Patterson

Penetrators
Jenkins
Austin

take Ojomo over Austin and Patterson.

I am keeping Kuhn on PUP or IR

I am keeping Austin over Patterson.

That leaves 10 DL - 5 DE + 5 DT

Put Joseph in the penetrators group.

Kuhn at least showed more heart and the hunger to play. Austin has been a shit show. When has he played well???? It doesnt count when its the 4th QT of the first preseason game for a guy who was a 2nd rd pick going against camp fodder. C'mon if we keep him it will be a wasted spot.

Kuhn a 7th rd pick, meanwhile, had no training camp as a rookie, and still made it onto the field. In the Cinci game he was batting down balls with perfect timing on his jumps. He may not be a run stuffer, but hes better then Austin.

I feel like Austin has no heart or desire to play. No hunger to prove all the doubters wrong. He just doesnt seem to be one of those types. Too lethargic.

Quote:

In the Cinci game he was batting down balls with perfect timing on his jumps.

If that's the best thing you can say about a DT, yeah, he sucks.

Is there something I missed that Austin has EVER done? Ill take a 300+ pound Patterson to clog the middle over a guy who wont see the field for his 4th straight year. Austin is our Sinorice Moss of DT's

will have to be activated.

I agree, Ojomo is really shaping up to look like a guy we have to keep. I get the who, who is he playing against thing, but when a guy shows it over and over, there is usually something to it.

Is the health at the WR position and the need to keep a 3rd QB.

that Austins first year he had a torn pec.. so he couldnt do anything.. his second year he wasnt in shape and had a knee injury.. also he hadnt played football in two years ( he couldnt play his last year in college because of suspension )

Austin showed decent against Pittsburg and showed some penetration against the Colts ( although he didnt get a sack, he was disruptive at times and was close to at least 1 sack that I remember )

Kuhn should go onto IR and use the year to completely recover and get stronger..

Patterson I dont know.. I havent seen enough..

getting dinged up like everybody else. This is why the preseason should only be two or three games at most.

Much was made of a throwaway comment from Coughlin that he had heard Pierre-Paul and Kuhn are getting close. Pierre-Paul will almost certainly be activated, which is the only part of the statement that should matter to anyone. Kuhn? Not even worth discussing. The only reason to activate him now would be to get a look at him in practice before cutting him. I doubt the Giants would do that, and even if they did, he's out of the Week 1 roster discussion anyway.

Patterson vs. Austin is more interesting. I'm fairly sure that if the competition is close, they will keep Austin and release Patterson. It's not just that Austin is a second-round pick who may still have upside. To me, it doesn't make good business sense to carry a vested veteran on the Week 1 roster if he's going to be a healthy scratch. I don't think the fifth DT will dress vs. Dallas, and I wouldn't want to guarantee Patterson's salary (even with a discounted cap number) when I might have to cut him soon to open a roster spot for depth at another position.

At some point, if it looks like Austin has plateaued, they might waive him and bring Patterson back. Patterson would also be a potential mid-season replacement for an injured DT. If another team picks him up in the meantime, so be it. A guy who isn't getting a shirt for the opener can't be all that central to the team's plans.

Obviously, if Patterson is way ahead of Austin on merit, and if he figures more prominently in the rotation that I have assumed, then it's a different ballgame.

needed.

Keep both Patterson and Austin. Patterson is a better player than Austin but is a short term solution. Keep both and allow Austin to keep progressing.

a guy on PUP just because its convenient. against the rules

But if there is a way, they may take it. In 2008 they had a major issue with DL wearing down the stretch and went out and stockpiled DTs on the offseason. With Canty out and not 100% when he returned, we saw similar situation last year, and they hit DT heavy in FA and draft. Couple that with comments about stopping the run and looking into 3-4 type looks to counter the read option offenses, and it is clear this is their number one focus on the D side of the ball.

Exactly.

cut bait this early with a second rounder. If he shows nothing this year, he may not make it to the opening day roster in '14..

I lean towards Patterson vs Kuhn, but no real clue as to what the Giants thinking is. That said, Kuhn would probably get through waivers. If Patterson was let go, I see him being quickly snapped up

off acl injury.

Although they are very different players, it's possible that the guy Patterson really needed to bump was Rogers. If that's the competition, it seems to be going Big Shaun's way, but you never know. They are both completely cuttable.

Austin over Patterson, Kuhn is in no man's land if they remove him from PUP.

I would love to keep Patterson but I don't see how they can do it. I don't think Rodgers or Austin are going anywhere.

the giants know that, but the guys ready to go. he is in incredible shape

patterson's in, i think we keep all of em, with all the DEs playing OLB and only keeping 5 true linebackers. all the big guys deserve to make it

I know - size isn't everything, as my wife assures me. Austin plays smaller than his listed size and Patterson has a long history of playing bigger than his. (Just ask Shaun O'Hara: the next time he blocks Patterson will be the first.) But since you seem to be a size queen, note that Austin has an inch and a dozen pounds on Patterson; and unlike MP, he might still be growing.

Physically and athletically, Austin is a monster. Sadly, for all of his superficial resemblance to Warren Sapp, he has played more like Warren Beatty.

How are they keeping Patterson on top of Joseph, Jenkins, Hankins, Rodgers and Austin? They're not keeping 6.

He's a solid plugger, but when talking about the #5 DT teams tend to stick with potential (Austin).

allocation to a 34 team

the Giants are keeping 6 DT's even if Jenkins does swing outside on occasion. I think Patterson gets cut and someone signs him Week 2.

Kuhn has to stay on PUP. Makes zero sense to activate him when you can just stash him for a couple months.

3-4 teams keep 6 DT's? Wut?

...because they decide that two of Herzlich, Curry and Bosworth aren't worth keeping. But even if that happens, they will add a sixth LB very soon. Eleven defensive lineman is not a sustainable roster allocation. At best, it's a short-term ploy to put off hard decisions for a few extra days while other questions shake out.

The little I saw of him, I was impressed how well he played for a player with so little experience. He has the ability to grow into an outstanding DT. I have no idea if he will do it, but it would be hard to give up on the guy this early. I don't think they would, if they activate him from the PUP, I think it would be because they feel he is worth a spot on the 53 sooner rather than later this season.

4-5 edge rushers and a handful of ILBs

Well, first of all.. 3-4 looks don't mean we're keeping 3-4 personnel, and even still.. 3-4 teams don't keep 6 big bodies who can play DT. That makes no sense.

and have you seen him this year? Dude went crazy lifting, eager to see him with his new strength training in the trenches. Kid was already a bit of a freak athlete. I think the coaches like Kuhn, but keep him on PUP until you need him. You know people will get dinged.

16 players for the front seven, and you're just juggling the spots around. The problem is, we're not a 3-4 team, and you can't just count Jenkins et.al. as 5-tech DEs and Kiwanuka, Tracy and Moore as hybrid OLBs. The 3-4 and 5-2 are interesting wrinkles, but the Giants play a 4-3 - a 4-3 in which Mathias Kiwauka is a starting DE. He's not Spencer Paysinger's backup.

Heart can play a role if there is a thin line between two talents. TC has to have a place in his heart for Herz, especially since he's quite active against Cancer(Jay Fund)...Again, only if it's a close decision.. Otherwise TC would go for clear winner. That's my take

bison and roster strength thats what makes sense. we have plenty of 33 looks too

to this D blogger

My point is, you can't count 3-4 DE's as 4-3 DT's.

Last year, for instance.. the Steelers kept 3 NT's and 4 DE's and 9 LB's when they made their cuts. Our allocation will be totally different. We'll probably be looking at 5 DT's, 5 DE's and 6 LB's.

Of 3 tech at Philly. He's not a stuffer type.

Rodgers and Hankins are true 1 Tech DTs. Both are locks barring injury to make the team. Joseph seems to be a NT too but was shifted over to the penetrating spot when Jenkins went to DE over both Austin and Patterson.

That's interesting in itself. The real question is do they think Joseph can play next to Hankins long term. That may mean more flexibility and less snaps for Austin as you then have both Jenkins and Joesph at the spot.

As of now IMO two things keeping Austin on the Roster are his draft status and the uncertainty of being able to resign Joseph. Kuhn gets to stay on PUP for now. Is he eligible for the PS since he played so much as a rookie.

We will see but Austin certainly could make the team but not because he's one of the 5 best DTs.

good point about a LinJo re-sign as to another reason they're not cutting bait with Austin this year, imo

He's not coming off a fluke blood clot like Rogers, or a freakish circulatory condition in his brain, like Patterson. He's coming off a torn ACL - probably the most studied of all football injuries. You don't need RGIII's t-shirt to know that patience is a virtue when it comes to surgically-repaired knees. It's in everyone's interest for him to stay on PUP. If he ever does suit up for the Giants again, their reward for waiting will probably be a better player with a lower risk of reinjury.

Is it the team's choice when a player comes off PUP or is it up to the medical staff? I was under the impression that if a player can pass a physical, they had to come off PUP.

It's definitely something Reese has to worry about. TC not care as much but even he has to be aware pf cap $$ and lpng/shprt term GM issues. Especially if that 5th DT isnt active most Sundays.

Patterson IMO is the better DT today but in 3-6 months? And w guys like Nicks, JPP comin up for new deals Austin becomes valuable insurance as a guy they know who won't have to sart even Next year as Jenkins will probably still have that spot.

No practice squad for him, ever.

Area Junc: Radical changes to the defense? Based on what? A few novel looks in practice? Unless you've had a peek at the Week 1 game plan, I call BS. Judging by the first two exhibition games (vanilla, I know, but vanilla means BASE), the Giants are a 4-3 team that runs a ton of 4-2-5 nickel. Sort of like last year... and the year before... and the year before...

One, he is going against 2nd and 3rd team players. Two, getting penetration isn't always a positive. Getting penetration creates more gaps for the defense to worry about. That is not good for this defense as it is. On top of that, the times he does penetrate he gets washed out of the play.

If Austin wasn't a second round pick he would already be off the team. He was a second round pick more for his rare size and athleticism but that only gets you so far. I'm tired of the excuses. Its his fault he didn't play his last year in college. Yes, he was injured and missed a full year but nobody cares. Last year he wasn't in shape. He can contol that. Enough with the excuses. It is time for results and that is where he is sorely lacking. Potential gets you drafted. Potential keeps you on a roster for a couple of years. Potential does not keep you on a team when you fail to reach it.

Just ask Aaron Curry. I'm not so sure it's as true here. And as much as we bitch about Sinorice Moss and Gerris Wilkinson, there have been times when the Giants' patience has been rewarded. I agree that Year 3 is put-up-or-shut-up time, but I think he gets that third year.

Thomas is an insider so if he says "radical changes" to the defense are coming, I believe him. It probably comes directly from Giants' camp.

indeed. I'm preparing for it as best I can

we've run 34 in ota's, minicamp, t.camp and preseason games. we're using plenty of 34, 33, 32 and 31 fronts this year. and we aren't going to give away state secrets. looking 2 catch dallas by surprise.

At this point it would be silly with his injury to pull him off PUP.

Reese himself has been quoted saying 1st and 2nd round picks need to perform right away. Funny part is the Giants seem to hold onto picks regardless serious lack of growth in their development.

Teams talk all kinds of shit about expectations and the need to perform but very few GMs like to admit when they miss on higher picks.

Austin right now is at best the 5th DT and realistically by performance the 6th. Playing better for him means he's actually been on the field but DeMontre Moore in 1 game made a huge play everyone remembers. Austin's critiques all say he seemed better and solid. Hardly enough honestly to keep a roster spot if he wasn't a past 2nd round pick but due to other factors he may get one more year.

you just cannot keep all of rogers, patterson AND jenkins. too many old bodies, too much future draft need.

apparently jenkins is a nifty player of some sort, and rogers is huge.

also disagree that one cannot count austin and ojomos preseason play due to level of comp. the players penetrated the lines and made some plays. austin has probably done just what he was asked to, improve his push and power..thats task number one. it does not mean he cannot get horizontal and move around...ditto hank...hank looks to be get horizontal very well for a big guy. but you can bet TC wants him to show leverage and power first. before he gets let loose.

DE's- tracy might be on the roster as a "lb" just due to being a more useful and athletic player than some of the existing roster 'lbs'

either a 3/4 look or a 5/2...these are more similar than some think...you need more of our existing roster DE's on the roster, since our existing roster LBs may not hold up at the end of the line, which those looks call for.

if a player is not big enough to play on the line (lbs) or fast enough to cover or work in zones (lbs)..then expect us to keep more DLs and and more DBs.

the better player. He's at the same spot. As I stated also suppose the Giants want to flip Joseph back and forth between the two DT spots when Hankins and or Rodgers comes in. SO the reality is he may be behind two players for snaps for the next few years.

Assuming Joseph resigns of course but Austin was beaten out once before by Kuhn so I'm not sure it matters as much about future draft needs as much as if the Giants can resign Joseph.

Have you watched Austin play? I'm not discounting his play against backups. I'm saying he hasn't done shit against backups.

OK compared to total shit. How that is reason to keep him mystifies me other than Reese doesn't want to admit to blowing a high pick.

...is Cooper Taylor. Although he might not contribute until November, and IR or even PS might be possible for him, I think they will carry him as one of the seven inactives until he's ready to play. He certainly makes more sense as a healthy scratch than a year-to-year vet like Patterson.

example- kiwi and tracy have played linebacker.

or - i could see us using a true Zero player, (rogers, okam and maybe joseph)(joe maybe in limited snaps) in a 5-2 look on some snaps and asap.

or what you guys call a 3/4 (if we really had the right linebackers for that, which we dont.)

hank, austin, jenkins maybe even joseph, seem like larger 3 type players, which are great to have. kuhn is a tough kid and will improve.

hank and jenk can also play some traditional run stopping DE as well.

what I don't get is what sorts of linebackers are worth keeping roster spots for when its the DTs and DEs that get hammered play over play all day every game.

and while a few of our DEs are probably better linebackers than a few of our linebackers.

and while most of the safeties are better in space (williams and rivers being the only exeptions)

rather than 'austin vs patterson'...I wonder...is a tracy better -more worth a roster spot- than say a curry or someone?

or okam and ojomo...I could see either paying dividends late in the season while a rivers or a conner or a curry is on IR...

it looks like he did just what he was asked to do in a vanilla look. he forced some plays that others got in on. not sure what you expect from a new player in preseason playing a vanilla D scheme.

At Austin's age, Kuhn hadn't even started a college game. Kuhn is undersized, much older, and he's coming off an ACL.

Austin, on the other hand, has all the physical attributes you want in a penetrating DT, and he's healthy. So far, he has done very little with those assets. But again, he's 24. If the staff gives him another year to grow up, it's arguably justified by his high ceiling. If they need his roster spot for a guy like Patterson who can contribute immediately, so be it. But I'm not keeping Mike Patterson on the roster unless he dresses week 1.

I expect him on to get pushed back. I expect him not to get washed down. Can you show me 5 plays in his career where he has looked good? And what is this "new" player crap?

not

He took up some space when the Giants were desperate at DT. But he's really a project

Austin looked OK. He was never blown backwards, He kept his gap. He rushed the passer pretty well and collapsed the OL on occasion. He did not make any tackles laterally. Overall I would rate his game a C...average.

He never left an impression on me - wondering if I missed something.

someone posted a link. colts game.

and please see it in its proper context: you KNOW that TC wants to see certain things for now and is not cutting the DTs loose yet.

so I expect austin to improve as we start with more attacking gap schemes, blitzes, the 5-2 and or all that.

I really think we try to find a way to keep austin, ojomo and maybe even okam.

keep ojomo - move tracy to LB (cutting a Sam type) and (wake up call mr tuck)

one extra DT - keep less one less linebacker overall, this pays for your zero DT

next year- total of two less LBs and additional an big safety with the additional DL

the coaches may be asking the DTs to 'stay on a guard for now, and not break free until very late in order to provide long term 2 gap responsibility.'

that does not mean that an austin or hank or whomever cannot jump in and make plays in the proper context and if and when we decide to play those schemes.

joseph, austin, tracy, jpp, hank, ojomo, kuhn

are very young and may all be here under a new Defensive Coach and or a more one gapping or attacking scheme.

do you really want to jet the younger players for evaluations made during a very conservative vanilla DL 'hold up your guard' scheme during preseason and under a a DC who might be leaving?

then what?

extra DT over a roster spot for a mediocre LB (of which we have plenty).

Not to mention the key to this defense as it stands is having excellent DT play to make up for the lbers. We need quality at that unit.

...and my belief that the Giants will keep him, I readily agree with his detractors that his career is much more likely to resemble William Joseph's than Keith Hamilton's. I would bet both Jerry Reese and Tom Coughlin see him that way too at this point. But if a DT is going to stand on the sideline in sweats on September 8th, it might as well be a 24-year-old DT with sky-high potential, rather than a 30-year-old who couldn't get cleared by the Eagles' medical staff last year.

interior runs regularly.

there is always that 3rd safety to bring up instead.

(a 5-1-5 look)

Kiwi5/jenkins3/rogers0/hankins3/jpp4

williams/sash

(3 dbs, corners most likely)

(free safety)

...is that he's probably a core special teams player. Bosworth and Herzlich - two of the bubble linebackers - fit that description. So does Paysinger, who appears to be off the bubble for now. The extra DT probably won't even dress.

I can agree with that logic. It's the time of year that folks forget the reality of the 45 vs. 53

all your posts are opinions. How is TC holding them back? How do you know this is a vanilla defense? Neither of these should be factored in when evaluating the DTs. If they were then how do they evaluate who makes the team? Solely on practice?

In the Colts game:

1st play: excellent job of pushing the OL back and collapsing the pocket

2nd: stalemate

3rd: not blocked, gets penetration, doesn't finish the play

4th: got pushed back three yards

5th: gets driven back, gets off the block, misses the tackle

6th: got initial push, couldn't get off the block, and got pushed back

7th: nothing spectacular but got washed outside the pocket

8th: not a bad play of squeezing down the line of scrimmage

9th: got driven back 3 to 4 yards

10th: no pressure on pass, is neutralized once the OL got his hands on him

11th: got off the block but got upfield and not down the line of scrimmage so he missed the tackle on the RB

12th: gets popped by the OL and is not able to make a play

13th: embarrassing

14th: holds ground and sheds the block


You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I just don't see it with this kid and I liked the pick when Reese made it.
Link - ( New Window )

when he was drafted more as a pure one gapping lesser sapp type...sapp, patterson and austin as types

hank being potentially a more mobile cofield type (gets horizontal and runs better, but not as good at point of attack yet)

we dress more DTs on game day and have a one gapper as well as a nose type and two all around DT types.

austin may be a limited type, but a worthwhile type

Question the competence of Reese and the medical staff and the basic intelligence of Kuhn himself. So you want to be unemployed rather than collecting NFL minimum salary?

The fallacy of the logic of the cut Austin now crowd is treating him as a 3rd season player rather than the 2nd year player that the torn pec in rookie season has made him. Of course I am sure in their own minds they believe that Austin (a DT no less) should have gutted it out and played (competently no less) through that injury.

is total fabricated bullshit.He consistently drew double teams
and collapsed the pocket. Don't know what you were watching but it clearly wasn't Kuhn.Go back and watch some film.

Patterson still looks like he has a few years left.

But, Austin and Kuhn could really be valuable in the very near future. I think it comes down to Austin v. Kuhn. While Austin was drafted high - Kuhn played last year and was developing fairly nicely. If I had to bet (guess) - it'd be Austin by a nose.

Whoever gets cut will be scooped up in a day or so.

Notwithstanding his lack of experience and the fact he was thrown in there last year, all the reports I saw were that he was contributing and improving.

is he living up to the billing?

... it will probably be because they want to. I don't think that's the case, so he stays on PUP.

As for whether a PUP'd player who passes a physical during pre-season must be activated, I've never heard of any such rule. I think it would be impractical to enforce it. In Kuhn's case, it's not an issue unless the team is dumb enough to give him a physical - and pass him - in the next week. Once he's on inactive PUP, it's a non-issue until Week 7.

Somebody has to back up Connor. There's been talk at various times about Rivers or Curry being able to play the MIKE, but I haven't seen much proof.

Quote:

hank being potentially a more mobile cofield type (gets horizontal and runs better, but not as good at point of attack yet)

That is impossible.

40Y dash
B. Cofield 4.95

J. Hankins 5.31
------------------
20-Yard Shuttle
B. Cofield 4.35 (Fastest time)

J. Hankins 4.61
------------------
3-Cone Drill
B. Cofield 7.43 (2nd Fastest time)

J. Hankins 7.59

Kuhn frequently drew double teams. That in itself says something all else aside.

at a most reasonable cost:

I can think of no scenario that they would want to lose Kuhn at this time.

I would schedule his next comprehensive physical after the season has begun.

I wonder if any of the extra DTs (or DEs for that matter) have trade value. You won't get much for almost all of them but you might get a light round pick for somebody. And, if you can't get a late round pick for any of them, then clearly we are overrating them. Clubs may want to pick someone up on waivers but if these guys are any good, then multiple clubs would want someone and be willing to offer something even if its a pick 2 years from now.

Joseph - Jenkins
Rodgers - Patterson
Hankins (There's no rush to give him reps)

Is IMO a lock to make this team since in his rookie year he made 8 total tackles much like Joseph in his rookie year. Yes joseph did it in 6 games while Austin did it in eight but he was hurting with the back problem. They are both second round draft picks who in the first year did very little yes I know Austin missed his rookie season due to injury. Now no matter how much you like or dislike Rogers he is 34 and 350 pounds how many DT's last a full year with those numbers to work with. He is also being used as the jumbo package with Joseph but don't forget that we also have a 320 pound 2nd round draft pick Hank who is going to need to play this same role this year. As for this Jumbo package it sounds great but if you keep Joseph and Rogers/Hank on all first downs what will offenses start to do on first downs? We all seem to agree that Joseph and Jenkins are our starters today with a rotation of Hank and Rogers/Austin.

Patterson for all the hype was a street pick-up who has done ok but he is not going to cause Austin to loose a roster spot (age, injury, salary & upside). Kuhn without the injury more than likely allows the team not to sign Patterson and has yet to practice looks more like a week six or beyond before anything happens with him. So in final if we keep 5 DT's Joseph, Jenkins, Hank, Rogers & Austin or four then Rogers is replaced by the Hank and Austin combo.

I think Patterson may be on the outside looking in. Joseph, Jenkins, Rogers, and Hankins make the team, Kuhn hopefully stays on PUP to extend his rehab and give us a midseason injury replacement option. Presuming we keep 5 DTs on the 53 man, not common but a very viable option this year, if the choice comes down to an aging Patterson with a significant injury history vs. a recent 2nd round pick with high upside in Austin I just don't see them cutting bait on Marvin yet. That said, injuries could very well settle this decision for us over the next couple weeks.

1. we got cofield long after his college and pro-day measurements...

2. watch the college tape on hank, hank got horizontal really well for a big player in college - tackling in wide space quicker that you would think.

much better than cofield did while he was here. not necessarily measured in the pre-draft numbers. cofield was great...but not a huge player in space once people got past him area.

now, conversly, hank has not learned leverage (as well as cofield had i mean...YET), but he will.

in the meantime, we tend to think that heavier players are nose types or at least primarily run defenders, "cloggers" and that's just not really logical. each player is different.

conversely, this team probably wants EACH and every of its DL to hold up vs a blocker or two AT TIMES...

the question is how to maximize the line play in the context of the overall D and how to use the extra skills that each has as well at times.

not just because he's a 2nd rounder. He's played better so far this go round. I agree he couldnt play worse but there is a lot of potential there if it can be tapped. The guy was drawing comparisons to Tommie Harris coming out(pre injury Tommie Harris).

So to me it's between Patterson and Kuhn. Sorry Markus I'm going with the veteran.

Cloggers:
Rogers
Okam

Generalised interior Run and Pass defenders:
Joseph

Strong Mobile DTs that 'could play end in a 3/4 or at the the 3 in a 5-2 types (cofield types):
Jenkins
Hankins

3 tech types
Austin
Patterson

run defending DT type
Kuhn

but just types list

but was later convinced that a type like Hank would be more useful.

rogers being so old and okam maybe not making the team, next year I could really see drafting a pure NT type and thus allowing for more varied alignments.

I see hank more as a 3"+" type, that is, a blend of mobility and power probably best not asked to hold two gaps all day.

joseph seems a blended type as well, albeit more to the power side, but still not a pure NT type.

austin a big one gapper...

That is interesting, a 2 down run-plugger is more athletic than a player that finished tops (fastest) in his draft class.

Quote:

.but not a huge player in space once people got past him area.

Hes the polar opposite of your description. Cofield had incredible stamina, he never ever gave up on a play. I've seen him chase 20+yards down the field.

Sorry alligatorpie , you don't know what your talking about.

i am talking about getting horizontal to make a play (see, recent, LT thread...no not comparing the players)

dont remember seeing barry to that and make tackles that way very often at all.

great player barry cofield...just different.

right now hank is a fresh rookie and may not yet have the savvy to know when and how to apply the great leverage that barry used,

but the college tape on hank shows him making some great tackles behind the line in space.

thats apples to oranges vs. "chasing down a play 20 yards downfield"

if you want...sure 'barrys shuttle' or what have you, but hank may have more upside long term in the whole change of direction area which bodes well for aggressive rushing schemes.

not knocking the need to hold up your spot as well, which barry was effing great at...hank will need to work on that as almost any rookie does in the NFL.

Quote:

but the college tape on hank shows him making some great tackles behind the line in space

In space is in space. Do you mean stretching a play out?

for a large-ish DT...once one is past the guard of whomever is blocking...

the play is flowing and a skill player (RB.QB other) is running past your 330lbs....

one may need to suddenly fall or drop or get horizontal to make the tackle

>in a direction OPPOSITE your momentums direction<..or at least not aligned with it.

Hanks tape seems just loaded with this. rare for a big guy.

LT was the best ever at this

but the RB just squirts by him because the DT cannot adjust fast enough or wont leave his feet?

hank does it on well, makes those plays, on tape in college at least.

do you have video or something?

one does not neccesarily tie down a DT to 'clogger' just because they are large.

if you can mix things up with multiple type players...or at least pair a hank or jenk or joeseph with an even bigger type (rogers, okam) and see what they can do attacking at times, do that.

but, by all means the clogging is a required skill as well..

hank seems to show good change of direction skills while tackling

Keep Nassib as E's backup. If he get hurt we are fucked anyway. There is your roster spot to keep both Austin and Patterson.

the cofield/hank/jenk as a '3/4 DE type DT' (plays tall and may need to get horizontal to make a play)

for example, JPP is (still lets hope) great at getting horizontal to make plays for a large man

vs

the sapp type: short stumpy legs, very quick feet can stay on his feet and run a player down while making tight turns

(austin or patterson??)

vs the nose type

or just generally tough DT type

you're not making any sense.

...to keep one of the dinged draftees (Moore and Taylor) off IR.

as an inactive 5th DT. That position (if there is one) is reserved for a youngster with potential e.g. Austin. If Patterson can not win the 3rd DT position (the 4th is reserved for Hankins) he will be cut. So it is really between Rogers and Patterson and Rogers is manifestly winning.

cannot have a rational draft strategy and or build a regular contender with too many old players.

now, which of the vet linebackers make the team?

keeping more active DTs on a gameday is an idea.

for gods sake DTs are in serious action on every darn play

Teams do not have enough spots to keep enough guys to make it through a season.

listed probably rookie weight of 6'4" and 270 as a DE, one of our larger ones.

people talk about pro conditioning improving players, he is one.

look at his high and lowlights of 2012 preseason on youtube.

it was not just a few sacks, the guy made a crapload of plays, including run defense plays.

towards the end see one vs the Pats where he has two blockers (a tackle and a guard?) on him and reaches out and grabs the runner for a loss. all sorts of plays.

at that size, or larger, he also a candidate to take an inside spot on those 4th and very long plays.

hustle all day.

tracy to 'LB' unit.

moore and tracy are fairly darn skinny, good players, but 'types'.

ojomo is a different type, a bit heavier, a hustle player

at one point vs the colts and showed that he can make plays getting low and high

Is pursuing the runner parallel to the line of scrimmage once you get penetration I think. Often DT may get good penetration, but are not athletic enough to pursue a RB, preventing him from simply going around the penetration.

he was drafted. Potential. Who knows what he's shown in practice but he's at best the 5th DT. Pretending this isn't about his draft status is just silly. If he was a 6th or 7th round pick he'd be cut if he didn't show progress.

Right now he's not better than two guys who both didn't play last year. One who is 34 with a million miles of tread on his tires and the other who had brain surgery.

Between 2005 and 2011, he only missed 2 games out of 110. He's very durable and he knows the division.

so I'm sure this point will be moot. Stay tuned.

was one of the more athletic DTs we've ever had. It was a credit to his abilities that he was able to perform well as a NT, but I definitely wouldn't put him in the space-eater/lane clogger category. Cofield and Hankins aren't really comparable players. In terms of speed and agility, Cofield is pretty far ahead of Hankins.

but i think hank will surprise in this area, to the upside.

by horizontal I mean the ability to get ones body literally horizontal, level as opposed to plumb for you builders, if and when needed to make a tackle and suddenly.

and I agree, I would not categorize either as 'cloggers', per se although cofield became fairly stout in there and hank will also.

Now you are making no sense. You are saying he is good at falling down? I don't think we will see the sudden fall drill at the combine anytime soon though.

Big Hank gettin' horizontal against recent Giant Keith Carlos.

so they can keep an extra DL for the first 6 games and get JPP 100% healthy for the back half of the season when the Giants usually struggle to make the playoffs. If all the DL's stay healthy after 6 games when they bring JPP back they can decide who has the least value after 6 games that matter.

and look at the 2nd half this year, its the tough half schedule wise.

and thx blogger, yes, players like JPP and LT 'get or got horizontal' often to make plays....as a change of direction skill or a way to extend ones reach given a split second while moving quickly (at 320lbs in some cases)

some may call it falling down, but some great players have left their feet to make great plays...see the tapes

others (sapp??) can change direction while staying on those little stubby legs they have ;-0

gives the Giants insurance against DT injuries.

I think Patterson vs Austin is decided with tonight's game.