Roster Talk: Patterson, Austin, Kuhn -who sticks?

Heart can play a role if there is a thin line between two talents. TC has to have a place in his heart for Herz, especially since he's quite active against Cancer(Jay Fund)...Again, only if it's a close decision.. Otherwise TC would go for clear winner. That's my take

bison and roster strength thats what makes sense. we have plenty of 33 looks too

to this D blogger

My point is, you can't count 3-4 DE's as 4-3 DT's.

Last year, for instance.. the Steelers kept 3 NT's and 4 DE's and 9 LB's when they made their cuts. Our allocation will be totally different. We'll probably be looking at 5 DT's, 5 DE's and 6 LB's.

Of 3 tech at Philly. He's not a stuffer type.

Rodgers and Hankins are true 1 Tech DTs. Both are locks barring injury to make the team. Joseph seems to be a NT too but was shifted over to the penetrating spot when Jenkins went to DE over both Austin and Patterson.

That's interesting in itself. The real question is do they think Joseph can play next to Hankins long term. That may mean more flexibility and less snaps for Austin as you then have both Jenkins and Joesph at the spot.

As of now IMO two things keeping Austin on the Roster are his draft status and the uncertainty of being able to resign Joseph. Kuhn gets to stay on PUP for now. Is he eligible for the PS since he played so much as a rookie.

We will see but Austin certainly could make the team but not because he's one of the 5 best DTs.

good point about a LinJo re-sign as to another reason they're not cutting bait with Austin this year, imo

He's not coming off a fluke blood clot like Rogers, or a freakish circulatory condition in his brain, like Patterson. He's coming off a torn ACL - probably the most studied of all football injuries. You don't need RGIII's t-shirt to know that patience is a virtue when it comes to surgically-repaired knees. It's in everyone's interest for him to stay on PUP. If he ever does suit up for the Giants again, their reward for waiting will probably be a better player with a lower risk of reinjury.

Is it the team's choice when a player comes off PUP or is it up to the medical staff? I was under the impression that if a player can pass a physical, they had to come off PUP.

It's definitely something Reese has to worry about. TC not care as much but even he has to be aware pf cap $$ and lpng/shprt term GM issues. Especially if that 5th DT isnt active most Sundays.

Patterson IMO is the better DT today but in 3-6 months? And w guys like Nicks, JPP comin up for new deals Austin becomes valuable insurance as a guy they know who won't have to sart even Next year as Jenkins will probably still have that spot.

No practice squad for him, ever.

Area Junc: Radical changes to the defense? Based on what? A few novel looks in practice? Unless you've had a peek at the Week 1 game plan, I call BS. Judging by the first two exhibition games (vanilla, I know, but vanilla means BASE), the Giants are a 4-3 team that runs a ton of 4-2-5 nickel. Sort of like last year... and the year before... and the year before...

One, he is going against 2nd and 3rd team players. Two, getting penetration isn't always a positive. Getting penetration creates more gaps for the defense to worry about. That is not good for this defense as it is. On top of that, the times he does penetrate he gets washed out of the play.

If Austin wasn't a second round pick he would already be off the team. He was a second round pick more for his rare size and athleticism but that only gets you so far. I'm tired of the excuses. Its his fault he didn't play his last year in college. Yes, he was injured and missed a full year but nobody cares. Last year he wasn't in shape. He can contol that. Enough with the excuses. It is time for results and that is where he is sorely lacking. Potential gets you drafted. Potential keeps you on a roster for a couple of years. Potential does not keep you on a team when you fail to reach it.

Just ask Aaron Curry. I'm not so sure it's as true here. And as much as we bitch about Sinorice Moss and Gerris Wilkinson, there have been times when the Giants' patience has been rewarded. I agree that Year 3 is put-up-or-shut-up time, but I think he gets that third year.

Thomas is an insider so if he says "radical changes" to the defense are coming, I believe him. It probably comes directly from Giants' camp.

indeed. I'm preparing for it as best I can

we've run 34 in ota's, minicamp, t.camp and preseason games. we're using plenty of 34, 33, 32 and 31 fronts this year. and we aren't going to give away state secrets. looking 2 catch dallas by surprise.

At this point it would be silly with his injury to pull him off PUP.

Reese himself has been quoted saying 1st and 2nd round picks need to perform right away. Funny part is the Giants seem to hold onto picks regardless serious lack of growth in their development.

Teams talk all kinds of shit about expectations and the need to perform but very few GMs like to admit when they miss on higher picks.

Austin right now is at best the 5th DT and realistically by performance the 6th. Playing better for him means he's actually been on the field but DeMontre Moore in 1 game made a huge play everyone remembers. Austin's critiques all say he seemed better and solid. Hardly enough honestly to keep a roster spot if he wasn't a past 2nd round pick but due to other factors he may get one more year.

you just cannot keep all of rogers, patterson AND jenkins. too many old bodies, too much future draft need.

apparently jenkins is a nifty player of some sort, and rogers is huge.

also disagree that one cannot count austin and ojomos preseason play due to level of comp. the players penetrated the lines and made some plays. austin has probably done just what he was asked to, improve his push and power..thats task number one. it does not mean he cannot get horizontal and move around...ditto hank...hank looks to be get horizontal very well for a big guy. but you can bet TC wants him to show leverage and power first. before he gets let loose.

DE's- tracy might be on the roster as a "lb" just due to being a more useful and athletic player than some of the existing roster 'lbs'

either a 3/4 look or a 5/2...these are more similar than some think...you need more of our existing roster DE's on the roster, since our existing roster LBs may not hold up at the end of the line, which those looks call for.

if a player is not big enough to play on the line (lbs) or fast enough to cover or work in zones (lbs)..then expect us to keep more DLs and and more DBs.

the better player. He's at the same spot. As I stated also suppose the Giants want to flip Joseph back and forth between the two DT spots when Hankins and or Rodgers comes in. SO the reality is he may be behind two players for snaps for the next few years.

Assuming Joseph resigns of course but Austin was beaten out once before by Kuhn so I'm not sure it matters as much about future draft needs as much as if the Giants can resign Joseph.

Have you watched Austin play? I'm not discounting his play against backups. I'm saying he hasn't done shit against backups.

OK compared to total shit. How that is reason to keep him mystifies me other than Reese doesn't want to admit to blowing a high pick.

...is Cooper Taylor. Although he might not contribute until November, and IR or even PS might be possible for him, I think they will carry him as one of the seven inactives until he's ready to play. He certainly makes more sense as a healthy scratch than a year-to-year vet like Patterson.

example- kiwi and tracy have played linebacker.

or - i could see us using a true Zero player, (rogers, okam and maybe joseph)(joe maybe in limited snaps) in a 5-2 look on some snaps and asap.

or what you guys call a 3/4 (if we really had the right linebackers for that, which we dont.)

hank, austin, jenkins maybe even joseph, seem like larger 3 type players, which are great to have. kuhn is a tough kid and will improve.

hank and jenk can also play some traditional run stopping DE as well.

what I don't get is what sorts of linebackers are worth keeping roster spots for when its the DTs and DEs that get hammered play over play all day every game.

and while a few of our DEs are probably better linebackers than a few of our linebackers.

and while most of the safeties are better in space (williams and rivers being the only exeptions)

rather than 'austin vs patterson'...I wonder...is a tracy better -more worth a roster spot- than say a curry or someone?

or okam and ojomo...I could see either paying dividends late in the season while a rivers or a conner or a curry is on IR...

it looks like he did just what he was asked to do in a vanilla look. he forced some plays that others got in on. not sure what you expect from a new player in preseason playing a vanilla D scheme.

At Austin's age, Kuhn hadn't even started a college game. Kuhn is undersized, much older, and he's coming off an ACL.

Austin, on the other hand, has all the physical attributes you want in a penetrating DT, and he's healthy. So far, he has done very little with those assets. But again, he's 24. If the staff gives him another year to grow up, it's arguably justified by his high ceiling. If they need his roster spot for a guy like Patterson who can contribute immediately, so be it. But I'm not keeping Mike Patterson on the roster unless he dresses week 1.

I expect him on to get pushed back. I expect him not to get washed down. Can you show me 5 plays in his career where he has looked good? And what is this "new" player crap?

not

He took up some space when the Giants were desperate at DT. But he's really a project

Austin looked OK. He was never blown backwards, He kept his gap. He rushed the passer pretty well and collapsed the OL on occasion. He did not make any tackles laterally. Overall I would rate his game a C...average.

He never left an impression on me - wondering if I missed something.

someone posted a link. colts game.

and please see it in its proper context: you KNOW that TC wants to see certain things for now and is not cutting the DTs loose yet.

so I expect austin to improve as we start with more attacking gap schemes, blitzes, the 5-2 and or all that.

I really think we try to find a way to keep austin, ojomo and maybe even okam.

keep ojomo - move tracy to LB (cutting a Sam type) and (wake up call mr tuck)

one extra DT - keep less one less linebacker overall, this pays for your zero DT

next year- total of two less LBs and additional an big safety with the additional DL

the coaches may be asking the DTs to 'stay on a guard for now, and not break free until very late in order to provide long term 2 gap responsibility.'

that does not mean that an austin or hank or whomever cannot jump in and make plays in the proper context and if and when we decide to play those schemes.

joseph, austin, tracy, jpp, hank, ojomo, kuhn

are very young and may all be here under a new Defensive Coach and or a more one gapping or attacking scheme.

do you really want to jet the younger players for evaluations made during a very conservative vanilla DL 'hold up your guard' scheme during preseason and under a a DC who might be leaving?

then what?

extra DT over a roster spot for a mediocre LB (of which we have plenty).

Not to mention the key to this defense as it stands is having excellent DT play to make up for the lbers. We need quality at that unit.

...and my belief that the Giants will keep him, I readily agree with his detractors that his career is much more likely to resemble William Joseph's than Keith Hamilton's. I would bet both Jerry Reese and Tom Coughlin see him that way too at this point. But if a DT is going to stand on the sideline in sweats on September 8th, it might as well be a 24-year-old DT with sky-high potential, rather than a 30-year-old who couldn't get cleared by the Eagles' medical staff last year.

interior runs regularly.

there is always that 3rd safety to bring up instead.

(a 5-1-5 look)

Kiwi5/jenkins3/rogers0/hankins3/jpp4

williams/sash

(3 dbs, corners most likely)

(free safety)

...is that he's probably a core special teams player. Bosworth and Herzlich - two of the bubble linebackers - fit that description. So does Paysinger, who appears to be off the bubble for now. The extra DT probably won't even dress.

I can agree with that logic. It's the time of year that folks forget the reality of the 45 vs. 53

all your posts are opinions. How is TC holding them back? How do you know this is a vanilla defense? Neither of these should be factored in when evaluating the DTs. If they were then how do they evaluate who makes the team? Solely on practice?

In the Colts game:

1st play: excellent job of pushing the OL back and collapsing the pocket

2nd: stalemate

3rd: not blocked, gets penetration, doesn't finish the play

4th: got pushed back three yards

5th: gets driven back, gets off the block, misses the tackle

6th: got initial push, couldn't get off the block, and got pushed back

7th: nothing spectacular but got washed outside the pocket

8th: not a bad play of squeezing down the line of scrimmage

9th: got driven back 3 to 4 yards

10th: no pressure on pass, is neutralized once the OL got his hands on him

11th: got off the block but got upfield and not down the line of scrimmage so he missed the tackle on the RB

12th: gets popped by the OL and is not able to make a play

13th: embarrassing

14th: holds ground and sheds the block


You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I just don't see it with this kid and I liked the pick when Reese made it.
Link - ( New Window )

when he was drafted more as a pure one gapping lesser sapp type...sapp, patterson and austin as types

hank being potentially a more mobile cofield type (gets horizontal and runs better, but not as good at point of attack yet)

we dress more DTs on game day and have a one gapper as well as a nose type and two all around DT types.

austin may be a limited type, but a worthwhile type

Question the competence of Reese and the medical staff and the basic intelligence of Kuhn himself. So you want to be unemployed rather than collecting NFL minimum salary?

The fallacy of the logic of the cut Austin now crowd is treating him as a 3rd season player rather than the 2nd year player that the torn pec in rookie season has made him. Of course I am sure in their own minds they believe that Austin (a DT no less) should have gutted it out and played (competently no less) through that injury.

is total fabricated bullshit.He consistently drew double teams
and collapsed the pocket. Don't know what you were watching but it clearly wasn't Kuhn.Go back and watch some film.

Patterson still looks like he has a few years left.

But, Austin and Kuhn could really be valuable in the very near future. I think it comes down to Austin v. Kuhn. While Austin was drafted high - Kuhn played last year and was developing fairly nicely. If I had to bet (guess) - it'd be Austin by a nose.

Whoever gets cut will be scooped up in a day or so.

Notwithstanding his lack of experience and the fact he was thrown in there last year, all the reports I saw were that he was contributing and improving.

is he living up to the billing?

... it will probably be because they want to. I don't think that's the case, so he stays on PUP.

As for whether a PUP'd player who passes a physical during pre-season must be activated, I've never heard of any such rule. I think it would be impractical to enforce it. In Kuhn's case, it's not an issue unless the team is dumb enough to give him a physical - and pass him - in the next week. Once he's on inactive PUP, it's a non-issue until Week 7.

Somebody has to back up Connor. There's been talk at various times about Rivers or Curry being able to play the MIKE, but I haven't seen much proof.

Quote:

hank being potentially a more mobile cofield type (gets horizontal and runs better, but not as good at point of attack yet)

That is impossible.

40Y dash
B. Cofield 4.95

J. Hankins 5.31
------------------
20-Yard Shuttle
B. Cofield 4.35 (Fastest time)

J. Hankins 4.61
------------------
3-Cone Drill
B. Cofield 7.43 (2nd Fastest time)

J. Hankins 7.59

Kuhn frequently drew double teams. That in itself says something all else aside.

at a most reasonable cost:

I can think of no scenario that they would want to lose Kuhn at this time.

I would schedule his next comprehensive physical after the season has begun.