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Would you swap Eli for Luck right now?

Spark Em Up 22 : 9/5/2013 11:43 am
Factoring in age and contract/salary going forward

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Eli has also  
pjcas18 : 9/5/2013 1:14 pm : link
not done it. Some of you make it seem like Eli has never failed or looked poor in failing.

if that's your MO, what you "know". Luck has never missed the playoffs. See how silly that argument sounds.

Tom Brady had 3 SB wins by the time he was 28, he's 36 and still has 3 SB wins. There are no guarantees.
no, no, no  
islander1 : 9/5/2013 1:15 pm : link
and no.

I'll happily take Manning for the next 5-6 years. Thanks.
but there are guarantees if you go with Luck?  
Britt in VA : 9/5/2013 1:15 pm : link
?
what's the expression?  
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/5/2013 1:16 pm : link
The day you start managing like a fan is the day you become one? Something like that (I have no source for it).

I love Eli and I love that Eli represents the Giants. But I was a Giants fan before Eli and I will be one after Eli. Loyalty is an important trait, but it can also be the thing that blinds you or gets in the way of the greatest possible success in the future.

I'd rather  
AnishPatel : 9/5/2013 1:17 pm : link
swap systems before I'd swap QBs.
No guarantees  
pjcas18 : 9/5/2013 1:17 pm : link
odds.

like I said.

And I made up the odds and I admitted that.

It's an opinion question, so I don't mean to say anyone is wrong, just sometime people try and bring fact into an opinion question and it doesn't work that way.
Britt,  
kmed : 9/5/2013 1:18 pm : link
that's the source of this whole discussion. There's no guarantee with either, that's why you go with the odds. To us, the odds are luck has more success than Eli for the rest of their careers, you feel the other way around. There's no right or wrong answer and it says nothing about respect or loyalty or fandom, it's just an opinion.
The best part about these ridiculous hypotheticals  
bignygfan : 9/5/2013 1:26 pm : link
is that it never considers the vice versa possibility.

Would the Colts trade Luck for Eli?

That tells you the answer right there.
I just don't know which one...  
Curtis in VA : 9/5/2013 1:30 pm : link
It could go in so many directions... spun up in so many ways.

Therefore...

Agree with this almost exactly.  
GiantFilthy : 9/5/2013 1:31 pm : link
Quote:
I actually think
PaulBlakeTSU : 1:08 pm
that Eli is a terrible fit in this system. He's such a great talent that he has success and in the big spots when it's less about system and more about guts and instincts, Eli is at his best.

I can't dissect the X's and O's the way Dorgan or Anish could as to the reasons why, but I can't think of another QB in the league as good as Eli who has so many terrible results.

My guess is because the system gives the receivers too much poewr to make decisions and reads and leads to more opportunities to be on a different page than the QB. But that is just a hunch.

So, because I don't think we have a great QB-scheme fit (just a great QB), I'm not concerned with bringing along someone like Luck.
Yep...  
M.S. : 9/5/2013 1:38 pm : link
...as in yes.

Who wouldn't.
I absolutely would NOT and for a reason that is illogical.  
chopperhatch : 9/5/2013 1:42 pm : link
First, there is a certain mystique Eli Manning, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady have with their tezms. Brees brought New Orleans their first championship in anything ever combined with the Katrina game and yaddah. Brady comes out of nowhere as what? A 6th rounder? And replaces a QB who, while revered, nobody thought would ever be able to get them over the hump. He then goes on a Super Bowl rampage and perpetuates one of the most dominant periods in any football division and is still going.

Eli's mystique is in how everybody questioned his demeanor, leadership abilities, and how much he cared for the game. The doofus expressions he makes. The serenity of his gameface that was misaken for indifference or confusion. He was being labeled as a first overall disappointment who couldn't even win over his own teammates (Tiki, Shockey). But then he produces two of the most magical Super Bowl and post season runs in history. Maybe the top two. At this point, while I am a Giants fan, I am rooting for them to win so that Eli gets a couple of more titles to hear everybody talk about him as being one of the greatest CHAMPIONS of all time. Right now I am slightly more of an Eli fan than a Giants fan. And since they are both one and the same right now, I can be both.

Eli has started a great career and story... sending him somewhere else in exchange for promise of another story before THIS masterpiece is complete would be a shame. I'll gladly put up with a few years of mediocrity or losing in exchange for Eli completing his era here with another ring or two. To see him win one with another team would be heart breaking to me.

And to those of you who think Luck has a better chance of winning his first before Eli gets his third, I think you're forgetting Eli would be in familiar territory in the Super Bowl. I think if Eli gets there again, it won't be close. I think he will be dominant.
I guess Some of you wouldn't deal Justin Tuck for JJ Watt  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/5/2013 1:49 pm : link
because he comes up in "big spots" and has had 2 nice playoff runs and two spectacular SBs under his belt

Eli's best pro year to date is 2011. Id be stunned if Luck doesn't produce 4-5 seasons in the next decade that surpass that year (at least regular season). Higher ceiling and almost decade younger. Yea, no brainer. Call the Colts tomorrow and they never let you finish the sentence before they hang up.
Thats totally different.  
Curtis in VA : 9/5/2013 1:52 pm : link
Justin Tuck isn't to the team or franchise what Eli Manning is.
Nor is any other position to a team  
Curtis in VA : 9/5/2013 1:53 pm : link
what a QB is.
No one in NFL history has had 4-5 seasons like Eli's 2011  
Go Terps : 9/5/2013 1:53 pm : link
But Luck will...
And JJ Watt isn't to his team  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/5/2013 1:54 pm : link
what Andrew Luck is to his. Thats not the point.

Higher ceiling, much younger far outweighs this overemphasis on perception of clutch

I remember when players had to accomplish something  
Go Terps : 9/5/2013 1:54 pm : link
before they were considered great. Those were the days...
.  
arcarsenal : 9/5/2013 1:55 pm : link
The difference in opinions basically come down to this. Some people form attachments to the guys under the helmets, others just look at the jersey and the statistics.

Not saying one is right and one is wrong. But I think most people derive their opinions on topics like these from one of those schools of thought.
Eli had a great playoff run in 2011  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/5/2013 1:57 pm : link
(which also included playing the two worst pass defenses in nfl history). But on the whole? During the regular season, while excellent, he wasn't even arguably top 4-5 QB that year even, let alone top 4-5 ever. In one of the top 5 seasons ever he doesn't even go 2:1 in TDs to INT's and has a couple clunkers down the stretch in big games (skins, jets) we were fortunate 9 was enough. Now Eli was great that year and carried a team with no running game, but save me the top 4-5 season ever crap
The great thing is  
chopperhatch : 9/5/2013 1:58 pm : link
THAT IT'S NEVER GOING TO BECOME A POSSIBILITY! Colts fans had to deal with it, but I doubt we will. That shit doesn't happen very often.
as a pure business decision  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 9/5/2013 1:59 pm : link
you'd have to make the trade. There's a reason why Luck was more hyped than any QB since Peyton. He's a beast of a player, and he had a great rookie year. The one question mark was if Luck's arm strength was overrated or not, he shut down those questions last year.

I love Eli. Eli's one of the most unique athletes I've ever seen. And if we're talking the next 3 years, I'd take Eli over Luck. If we're talking the next 5 years, I still might take Eli. But over the course of the next 10 or 15 years, how could you not take the younger option in Luck?
You said Luck would have 4-5 seasons like Eli's 2011  
Go Terps : 9/5/2013 2:00 pm : link
I can't think of a single season that Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, John Unitas, Tom Brady, Steve Young, or several other greats carried a team with a lousy defense and running game to the title.

But Luck will do it 4 times.
In a heartbeat  
Kyle : 9/5/2013 2:01 pm : link
.
Eli might have carried that lousy defense  
Enzo : 9/5/2013 2:04 pm : link
to the playoffs, but I'm pretty sure the defense stepped up just a bit in those 4 playoff games, lol. No need for hyperbole.
Eli's 2011 was much better than the stats  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 9/5/2013 2:05 pm : link
over the course of that entire season including the playoffs he was absolutely a Top 5 QB. PFF actually graded him the 3rd best QB in the NFL that year, I believe that's far closer to the truth than Eli's good but not great stats. He was a killer that year.

Eli's ceiling is as high as anyone's ceiling. He's arguably the best QB in the league at throwing outside the hashmarks, something that a couple of NFL analysts have pointed out. He's a playmaker. The problem isn't his ceiling, it's that he has a lower floor than other Franchise QBs. He's a bit inconsistent but his talent is unquestionable.
without reservation  
AnnapolisMike : 9/5/2013 2:05 pm : link
The big bonus is the difference in salary cap. That's alot of money you can spread around to make your entire team better.

Eli has earned it...but make no mistake...the Giants have significantly less depth because of it.
And again the whole  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/5/2013 2:06 pm : link
team game not tennis speech has to be given, same as always. Why. Eli "carried" us on his back with no help, why mention in all 8 playoff wins no team scored above 20 points. Why mention our defense held Tom Brady offenses to 14 and 17 respectively in SBs (one of those offenses being the best ever)

Team sport. Not Golf
.  
arcarsenal : 9/5/2013 2:09 pm : link
Eli is just a very unique QB in that when you talk about "stats don't tell the story" guys, he's exactly who you're referring to.

I usually lean towards being a numbers guy and I regularly use them to support my arguments when it comes to players.. but I think everyone here knows that there's an "it" factor when it comes to Eli Manning that there's no column for on the stat sheet. I guess the come from behind numbers or 4th quarter stuff is close but Eli just has a quality about him that a lot of guys who are outstanding players just don't have. And I think that's what people would be so hesitant to lose.

There are days where Eli looks like he's barely even average. But there are also times where you can't think of one QB in the history of the league outside of maybe Montana himself that you'd rather have under center. Eli is polarizing and I think he pretty much always will be.
I understand having a soft spot for a guy who won 2 SBs for us  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/5/2013 2:10 pm : link
there are probably a couple QBs better than Eli who i may not pull the trigger for just for that reason. But when you talk about a guy basically a generation younger (generation by nfl career standards) and has the ceiling of luck, come on now

If you were Giant fans you would laugh at the notion of Giants fans turning this down
But it is the point.  
Curtis in VA : 9/5/2013 2:13 pm : link
Higher ceiling and youth might work for every other position but it isn't the same with a QB.
It's got nothing to do with a soft spot  
Go Terps : 9/5/2013 2:15 pm : link
I'd take Flacco and Rodgers too.

Luck hasn't done anything. I'm not going to assume he'll win titles with Indy just because he's a good guy. It's more likely that Indy won't win a title with him than they do win one.

Yeah it's a team sport...which makes Eli's 2011 season all the more remarkable.
you'd rather  
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/5/2013 2:20 pm : link
have Joe Flacco going forward than Andrew Luck? I have to disagree strongly with that.

Arc  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/5/2013 2:20 pm : link
This "It" you speak of. Where was it during tailspins at the end of seasons in big games where his play has generally fallen off a cliff as well as the team after hot starts. How many horrid performances in big late season games or playoff games do i have to list where he didn't use his magical "it" powers. Did he leave them at home that day?

Those seasons happen far more often than 2007 and 2011 do, and in even both those years there are big spots you can point to where he didn't play particularly well, or a bounce or break completely independent of him that leads to winning bias and the notion of this "it"

Eli has been a terrific QB for the Giants. You can point to tangibles, you don't need intangibles. He gets credit for stepping with two well timed playoff runs that helped us hoist trophies. But he doesn't have some magic clutch gene than he can just turn on and off. Its a little more random than that

Flacco has played in a million playoff games  
Go Terps : 9/5/2013 2:23 pm : link
and shown himself to be more than up to the task. He's a Lee Evans drop from having QB'd his team to the two Super Bowls. I don't think Flacco gets nearly the credit he deserves.
of course, you do that swap  
oipolloi : 9/5/2013 2:26 pm : link
Luck is 8.5 years younger and will make less. Naturally, there is a chance he won't be as good or durable as Eli but the risk is well worth the reward.
I don't understand how we can annoint Luck  
Go Terps : 9/5/2013 2:27 pm : link
People did the same thing when Peyton Manning was drafted. And after all that, Indy won one title with him in a decade and a half, and the argument can be made that his tenure in Indy will be remembered as much for the poor playoff performances as anything else.

Why do we assume that Luck's career in Indy will be incredible?
Terps  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/5/2013 2:28 pm : link
We are both huge Barry Sanders fans. As many topics as we disagree on, we are on the same page when it comes to him.

I think hes the greatest back Ive ever seen. Maybe AP can one day take that title from him. But Barry's playoff career was trash. I mean highly highly underwhelming in his 6 trips. How much can you really upgrade or downgrade someone on the randomness of 7-8 games with so many moving parts.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/5/2013 2:28 pm : link
Joe, you're interpreting my post totally differently than it was intended.

Eli hasn't come up huge in every single moment we've ever needed him to.. it would be unrealistic to expect. My point is simply this: he's come through not once, but twice in Super Bowls against Patriot teams that were clearly better than us throughout those regular seasons. He was outstanding throughout the 2011 playoff run and time and time again, he's shown a knack for making a big play in a big spot.

That doesn't mean I think he has a "magic wand". That doesn't mean I think there's a switch. It just means that I think there are situations where I am taking him over any other guy in the league because he's proven that he isn't going to get caught up in a moment or shy away from the spotlight. Not every player is wired the same way. I happen to like that about him and think it's a special quality that not every guy has. Shoot me.
I'd take Eli  
SanFranGiantsFan : 9/5/2013 2:29 pm : link
With my heart. I'm usually a jersey guy, but there are some-like Eli & Tuck to name two-who I have an emotional attachment to.

With my head, I'd take Luck solely on age.
Terps, I remember having this same conversation with you  
kmed : 9/5/2013 2:29 pm : link
regarding Rodgers. It was around the same time right before he absolutely broke out. You said you would take Eli over Rodgers because Rodgers hasn't done anything yet. Now he's arguably the best QB in football. Luck is that good and if you haven't watched him a ton, I would suggest you watch him and you will quickly realize why so many people are touting him already.
...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 9/5/2013 2:31 pm : link
I think there is something to be said about 'it'. Eli definitely has 'it'.

If I'm down 4 points with 2 minutes left, I'm taking Eli over ANYONE in the league. He's proven time & again he excels in those situations.
Flacco's also a safety-not-falling-down in Denver away  
Kyle : 9/5/2013 2:32 pm : link
from being a paid 2/3rds of his current contract.
Joe  
Go Terps : 9/5/2013 2:33 pm : link
QB is not the same as RB. It just isn't. Further, Eli indisputably made THE crucial, historic plays that in the final drives of Super Bowl victories. Call that random if you want, but it happened. And if that's random, so is Montana finding Clark in the endzone, Unitas winning the '58 title game in Yankee Stadium, and on and on.

Go Terps made a good point earlier-  
SanFranGiantsFan : 9/5/2013 2:33 pm : link
there are definitely some-I forget his entire handle, but Pete in CT or something-who do not appreciate what we have in Eli & won't until he hangs it up. In all probablity, we won't fall into a Andrew Luck, but more like a Curtis Painter. I'm not looking forward to those days.
90% of bbi(just a guess)  
kmed : 9/5/2013 2:34 pm : link
appreciates and fully understands what we have in Eli.
Kyle  
Go Terps : 9/5/2013 2:39 pm : link
And Joe Montana is a dropped pick from not beating the Bengals. Tom Brady is a tuck rule from fumbling away a home playoff game. Brees is a dropped Garcon pass from beating the Colts.

You can go back to every great performance and find a moment that it could have gone the other way. But it didn't. Things happened the way they happened, and the players that made it happen deserve the credit.

Flacco had a shot, and he took it. He deserves credit for that.
If Eli's playoff sample  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/5/2013 2:41 pm : link
grew large enough, it would mirror his regular season production. He's a very a good QB. We are fortunate that he played like a great QB during two playoff runs (especially '11). There have been other big spots/games where he has been terrible.

Clutch can be highly random. Im sure 9 years ago a lot of you would have taken Tom Brady over a lot of better QBs who didn't have the big spot success he did but were much more accomplished. Now we've seen Brady basically mold into that player you'd take him over.
Ridiculous question  
Flanker7 : 9/5/2013 2:48 pm : link
and I love Eli.

But I am a GIANTS fan, for life. Not just a Giants fan for the next three years.

I would do it in a heartbeat. You're getting an extra 10 years of elite quarterbacking if you do the trade as well as an extra 4 years of 15MM more cap room.

It is an absolute no-brainer.
Agree w/ Filthy and PaulBlake on Eli & system  
GiantTuff1 : 9/5/2013 2:55 pm : link
I think Flacco has a bit of Eli's cool in him, which makes me like him more than others, but to take Flacco over Luck?..... Really?

Luck is going to be an assassin for years to come. His ceiling is way higher than Flacco's. If you're grading out players at this moment for a complete league redraft, a shit ton more GM's are taking Luck before Flacco.

I find it hard to argue against that.

Terps, I think you are romanticizing a bit the fact a QB has to win something to be worth his salt. Generally it's true, but as you mentioned times are a changing, and there's more ways to analyze this holistically than boiling it down to a former SB win (i.e. the Trent Dilfer case)

I say when you've got it you've got it. Bradford... eh. I didn't think it was apparent at all with him. Luck? The guy JUMPS off the screen.

All things equal today, if you are betting big $ the next 15 years I would 100% bet on Luck.

Eli vs. Luck is a much more difficult debate since I think Eli is better than Flacco ever will be, and he's got two, which completely dispells the idiotic 'fluke' argument people mounted against Eli after the first SB.

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