Sure, so why do you cite the fact he was a dropped pass from two SBs as being to Flacco's credit? He didn't get there, too bad so sad. That's the only reason the counterpoint was made.
I agree about '07; in hindsight, the best thing that could have happened to them was losing a game in the regular season, like that loss on MNF in Baltimore. I remember hearing all their players say, after it all ended, how the unbeaten record was a drag.
So you're essentially saying that Brady is better now at 36-37...
behind making a move like this but that's not how you treat a person who's done what Eli's done for the team, especially considering Eli's career is far from over barring serious injury.
Eli's best season(s) may very well be ahead of him, Ive never meant to imply otherwise. My gut is he probably hasn't had his best season yet (regular season at least). But my feeling is the most favorable scenario for Eli is that he and Luck have a comparable next 5-6 years, and then Eli's gone when Luck is just hitting his prime. The gaping age difference is still huge, as is Luck's ceiling
Brady used to be much more of a game manager in the 1st half of his career, then all of a sudden he shatters the TD mark and is airing it out 600 times a season. I think Eli will improve with age, but not like Brady.
for a Championship season is the Lombardi Trophy, it amazes me just how many BBI'ers dismiss it when this current group has garnered two of them.
Any other QB with 2 SB's is considered a legend in the eyes of nearly any fan, but on BBI, it is diminished to the point where the franchise guy is being tossed away for a 2nd year player. You'd swear Eli is just a run of the mill guy.
he had one of the most bizarre career trajectories/paths I have ever seen in the history of pro sports. It is pretty much unprecedented at least in my lifetime.
and much of that is due to salary. We'd be able to keep Nicks, resign JPP and Linval, and probably make a FA splash as well for a title run. No reason to think Luck doesn't have the goods to get a ring with a great team surrounding him.
I didn't even seen anything negative about Eli on the entire thread.
the decision people make on whether they'd do this or not is based on what they feel is in the best long-term interest of the team and a willing trade-off in the short-term.
And I haven't even heard anyone claim Luck is legendary. He's without a doubt a franchise QB though. We've seen it in the NFL, this isn't Teddy Bridgewater (which would be a different, but also interesting conversation).
My comparison for a different spot for Brady would be Steve Nash
except Brady has championships. Nash was always pretty good in Dallas, but his career took a huge step up in the later half of his career in Phoenix where he became a 2 time MVP out of nowhere.
anything Eli has done to feel like the team can win with another QB at the helm going forward?
Eli was miraculous. he was fantastic. The team can win with another QB. If it's Luck, they could even potentially keep winning longer, and not to mention re-sign Nicks, Linval and JPP, etc. since Luck makes 5M this year and 5M next year and 5M the following year, but Eli makes over 20M each of those seasons.
I always saw Nash as more of a Tiki Barber like comparison. Kind of a bust early. Then matured to an all star caliber guy mid career, then became an all world caliber guy later
But for Brady I don't see a comp. Good not great QB wins a shitload of titles early. Becomes substantially better and legitimately historically great, though not quite as good in the clutch and no hardware to show for it. Tons of black spots on the playoff resume' since 04
it's hard to give Brady a black spot FOR ME for SB XLII and SB XLVI.
Both times his team had a win with under 2 min left to play.
And during SB XLVI didn't he set the consecutive completion record with 16 in a row or something?
Tyree and Manningham make catches, Welker drops one.
In either case, it's easy to forget sometimes Brady came in to the league as a 6th round comp pick. I won't call him a project, but he was far less polished as guys like Eli or Luck.
And I don't want to take this conversation where it shouldn't be but notice when Brady took off statistically was when Moss and Welker were added to his team. Prior to that who were his best receivers? Troy Brown? David Patten? Deion Branch? Not really too hard to figure some of that out.
of Ben is odd, too. But Steeler fans don't hate him as the QB.
The most frustrating part is that in a vacuum across different threads, one can almost come to the conclusion that the team has won two SB's in spite of certain players or coaches. Almost as if they are just faceless, nameless stooges with an equal Madden rating as an alternate.
There are complaints that Gilbride's offense holds us back from winning more SB's, even though it was a key component to winning two. Same with TC's philosophy. Same with Tuck's indifferent play or the focus on Eli's mistakes.
We won two SB's from an extremely unlikely position and yet some look at the team as being disappointing because they don't have 5 straight SB's or because they have missed the playoffs. Probably some of those guys are the ones talking about missing the playoffs in week 13 to get a better draft pick when we have a shot to make it. Believe it or not, those threads existed in both 2007 and 2011, so don't act like it is a fairy tale.
I wouldn't trade Eli for anyone right now, and thankfully, I'll never have to trade in the memories he's already provided.
Those were arguably Brady's two best seasons and in the biggest game they were held to 14 and 17 respectively. He owns a piece of that.
The highest scoring offense in NFL history was held to 14 points in the biggest game they played, and he was crap in the AFC title game that year too. Pass protection was horrible in 42 but he was clearly flustered even when he had time. And the INT in 46 was huge, plus the Welker play wasn't all on Welker. But beyond just the Giant games.
He's got outplayed at home by Flacco twice (once he lucked out and won, thanks Lee Evans). He lost to a Sanchez led Jet team at home. He has a few 3 INT games in the postseason in recent years.
of it, but he was the MVP in 2001 and had worse stats. Just saying it's not like he was some magician or anything in those other super bowls and suddenly morphed into neil o'donnell.
In SB XLII Brady was knocked down over 30 times. 30 f-ing times. Ask a Pats fan about that Super Bowl. They have nightmares with Tuck, Strahan, and Osi all over them.
I blame brady for all of it, but more give the Giants D and Eli credit for the win.
Plus if you want to nitpick at Brady's accomplishments
What i mean with this Brady stuff is that clutch can be highly random. Nothing more nothing less. He's better now but hasn't been as good in big spots. Im not trying to totally kill him for not winning a ring since 04. In fact kinda the opposite.
Its true he was nothing special in the 01 run and that team caught a million breaks, although when mentioning his 01 stats realize he played 3 games, one was a snow bowl and another vs pitt in the AFCC he missed some time due to injury and had to leave the game, only threw 18 passes.
by the way. That was a pretty bad team with a putrid running game he took to the playoffs. Pretty much every QB in the NFL that hasn't won a ring you can say "he still needs to prove it". But im convinced Luck is special, and will be incredibly durable. Zero question I swap QB's right now if the salaries also change hands.
The fact that this question has generated so much discussion
Proves every single thing Deadspin mentioned about the Giants fan base.
Your talking about giving up on a proven 2 time SB winning QB for a kid who has not really proven too much yet. A QB who is pure clutch and money in the big game..lol, I mean how do you guys arguing for this think this actually may be a legit idea?
It's just so silly to realize that some would indeed think this was a good idea. This guy just can't win with so e of you and really it's somewhat embarresi to witness
people will look back at the resume' and it will basically be beyond reproach. He has the hardware, he has the historic statistics, multiple MVPs to boot. One hell of a career. Something for everyone. You like numbers? He's your guy. You like to ring count? He's your guy. But he was really never that guy all rolled into one at once. That is something that will be lost to time by many. These were two careers rolled into one.
the idea of "clutch" is largely overrated because players aren't clutch until they are, and then they are clutch until they aren't.
Just ask Arod, Lebron, Kobe, Brady, Peyton, Duncan, etc.
he problem is that Eli's greatest strength is that he has come through in some very big spots and so Giants fans love to romanticize the idea of clutch and overstate its value.
Is Eli any less clutch if Corey Webster doesn't knock Brady's 65 yard bullet to Randy Moss at the end of SB 42? Or what about if a healthy Gronk is two feet closer to the jump ball at the end of SB 46?
Winning the SB still requires only a four-game playoff run. People can elevate their games over four games, especially when it's a team game. I don't think much of Flacco as a quarterback at all. I think he has a big arm but isn't a great decision maker or precision passer. He went on a nice run and got some help along the way (like everyone does in some fashion). It doesn't elevate him to some mystical figure of guys who are able to win the big game.
Is it possible that there are some headcases, or guys who tighten up in pressure situations? Of course. But I think the number of people who "choke" are far lower than what people think. These guys are the best of the best and most of them have a lot of confidence in their abilities.
to romanticize 2 SB rings, the hell with a concept of clutch.
All I know is that Eli has won 2 SB rings. A feat that normally places you and keeps you in the Pantheon of all-time greats. The how, the what if's and the could've beens are all just smokescreens blurring the fact that it has already been accomplished.
For all we know, Luck turns out to be Drew Bledsoe.
I'll take the Devil I know over the one I don't when the crafty Devil has already won 2 titles.
but the clutch/anti clutch label is so often handed out erroneously because peoples perceptions are so ridiculously clouded by winning and losing bias. Before Lebron James ever won a ring, his career playoff numbers and career late/close numbers in the regular season and playoffs were historically good. I mean so far above and beyond anyone in the sport, only really Dirk Nowitzki was in his neighborhood (And Dirk was also a guy who was seen as not clutch until he won).
Manwhile a guy like Kobe has this clutch reputation that is really not backed up by any available data whatsoever other than ring counting (and there are more extenuating circumstances for that than I care to go in depth with on a football thread)
Have any idea who is one of the 3-4 best active QBs career wise in the 4th quarter with the scoring margin within one TD? None other than Tony Romo. 4th quarter score less than 7 points, guy has been incredible.
Some excellent posts, so there's not much more to add
1)Eli, Brady, Peyton, Brees will play into their 40s and most likely at a high level because they keep themselves in great shape and save for Peyton, none have had career threatening injuries..
QBs playing into their 40s will become the norm assuming they are not running QBs..
Eli has about 8-10 seasons left with good health..Luck's career can end as easily as Eli's as most of today's severe injuries know no age and are as career-threatening to the young as they are to the long term vet..We're not talking about the aches and pains the young recover quicker from..
2-Montana, Brady, Ben and Eli are the only QBs that have consistently gotten the job done with the SB on the line..Others will win it, but few will make it their own when the pressure is unbearable as these people can..Eli has taken it a step further..Twice..
done with the SB on the line when MoM has just told us he hasn't.
It can't be both ways.
And the problem with Romo and being great with the score close late is it wouldn't have been close if he didn't throw three first quarter picks. You dig a hole so big the defense lets up, your stats look better and you now get credit for it?
We can over/under emphasize clutch until we're blue in the face but let's not act like pressure situations don't exist and never come into play. Some players handle them better than others do. It's just part of being human. There are people in this world who can do their best work when the weight of the world is on their shoulders and others who fold and fail. It translates into the world of sports. It's not everything, but it exists.. regardless of all the what ifs or could have beens.
I'm not trying to over "romanticize" the idea of Eli Mannings clutch ability.. but the fact of the matter is that he's got a pretty nice resume in big situations (and there are numbers that back it up).
Some guys come through when their team needs them to.. some guys puke.
Im saying his poor performances in the playoffs in recent years were basically random. Sometimes you have bad games, sometimes they happen to be at the wrong time. It's not that he wasn't clutch. Ill take my chances with 07-present Brady in a big spot over 01-06 Brady even though it didn't quite play out that way in the limited real world sample we have to date
And with Romo im not just talking about last years game at Dallas. Im talking career. The guy has been incredible in the 4th quarter of his career in close games. Weird for a guy who is the least clutch QB ever
same deal was on the table for the Colts: only Peyton was older and coming off of neck surgery, and Luck was even more "unproven" by never having played a down at the NFL level. They made the swap, obviously... and they did it with the hands-down HOF Manning brother, not the "maybe HOF if he gets another ring or two" brother.
A real NFL GM, including our own JR, makes the deal in a nanosecond. Of course it's totally hypothetical, because the Colts don't make the deal unless at least 2 #1 draft picks come along with Eli for Luck.
Its the same guy and hes had two completely different careers. He has been Troy Aikman and Dan Marino.
That said, they are two amazing drives away from winning an absurd 5 titles since '01.
kmed : 2:34 pm
appreciates and fully understands what we have in Eli.
People like to say that others don't 'appreciate Eli' to feel superior as fans, which distracts from an otherwise good discussion on both sides.
Legacy? Sure. His talent? Means zero.
There are fans here who are trying to belittle that while at the same time giving Luck legendary status?
That's fucking precious.
Eli is 32 now. If you did this same thing with Brady back in 2006 you'd have missed the best years of his career.
Why wouldn't you give Eli the same opportunity to mature?
Any other QB with 2 SB's is considered a legend in the eyes of nearly any fan, but on BBI, it is diminished to the point where the franchise guy is being tossed away for a 2nd year player. You'd swear Eli is just a run of the mill guy.
Ask Phillip Rivers how those SB trophies feel.
Shame the way people here always shit on Big Ben
If you take out the salary, i'd say no.
I didn't even seen anything negative about Eli on the entire thread.
the decision people make on whether they'd do this or not is based on what they feel is in the best long-term interest of the team and a willing trade-off in the short-term.
And I haven't even heard anyone claim Luck is legendary. He's without a doubt a franchise QB though. We've seen it in the NFL, this isn't Teddy Bridgewater (which would be a different, but also interesting conversation).
When you come into this league, it his so damn hard and rare to make it to, let alone win one.
It is a tall mountain for Luck, AND his team (just like Eli AND his team), to climb.
If we're talking odds, the safest odds are probably on neither of them getting there (for Eli, again), because it's just that hard to do.
Eli was miraculous. he was fantastic. The team can win with another QB. If it's Luck, they could even potentially keep winning longer, and not to mention re-sign Nicks, Linval and JPP, etc. since Luck makes 5M this year and 5M next year and 5M the following year, but Eli makes over 20M each of those seasons.
But for Brady I don't see a comp. Good not great QB wins a shitload of titles early. Becomes substantially better and legitimately historically great, though not quite as good in the clutch and no hardware to show for it. Tons of black spots on the playoff resume' since 04
Both times his team had a win with under 2 min left to play.
And during SB XLVI didn't he set the consecutive completion record with 16 in a row or something?
Tyree and Manningham make catches, Welker drops one.
In either case, it's easy to forget sometimes Brady came in to the league as a 6th round comp pick. I won't call him a project, but he was far less polished as guys like Eli or Luck.
And I don't want to take this conversation where it shouldn't be but notice when Brady took off statistically was when Moss and Welker were added to his team. Prior to that who were his best receivers? Troy Brown? David Patten? Deion Branch? Not really too hard to figure some of that out.
The most frustrating part is that in a vacuum across different threads, one can almost come to the conclusion that the team has won two SB's in spite of certain players or coaches. Almost as if they are just faceless, nameless stooges with an equal Madden rating as an alternate.
There are complaints that Gilbride's offense holds us back from winning more SB's, even though it was a key component to winning two. Same with TC's philosophy. Same with Tuck's indifferent play or the focus on Eli's mistakes.
We won two SB's from an extremely unlikely position and yet some look at the team as being disappointing because they don't have 5 straight SB's or because they have missed the playoffs. Probably some of those guys are the ones talking about missing the playoffs in week 13 to get a better draft pick when we have a shot to make it. Believe it or not, those threads existed in both 2007 and 2011, so don't act like it is a fairy tale.
I wouldn't trade Eli for anyone right now, and thankfully, I'll never have to trade in the memories he's already provided.
The highest scoring offense in NFL history was held to 14 points in the biggest game they played, and he was crap in the AFC title game that year too. Pass protection was horrible in 42 but he was clearly flustered even when he had time. And the INT in 46 was huge, plus the Welker play wasn't all on Welker. But beyond just the Giant games.
He's got outplayed at home by Flacco twice (once he lucked out and won, thanks Lee Evans). He lost to a Sanchez led Jet team at home. He has a few 3 INT games in the postseason in recent years.
In SB XLII Brady was knocked down over 30 times. 30 f-ing times. Ask a Pats fan about that Super Bowl. They have nightmares with Tuck, Strahan, and Osi all over them.
I blame brady for all of it, but more give the Giants D and Eli credit for the win.
Its true he was nothing special in the 01 run and that team caught a million breaks, although when mentioning his 01 stats realize he played 3 games, one was a snow bowl and another vs pitt in the AFCC he missed some time due to injury and had to leave the game, only threw 18 passes.
Your talking about giving up on a proven 2 time SB winning QB for a kid who has not really proven too much yet. A QB who is pure clutch and money in the big game..lol, I mean how do you guys arguing for this think this actually may be a legit idea?
It's just so silly to realize that some would indeed think this was a good idea. This guy just can't win with so e of you and really it's somewhat embarresi to witness
Just ask Arod, Lebron, Kobe, Brady, Peyton, Duncan, etc.
he problem is that Eli's greatest strength is that he has come through in some very big spots and so Giants fans love to romanticize the idea of clutch and overstate its value.
Is Eli any less clutch if Corey Webster doesn't knock Brady's 65 yard bullet to Randy Moss at the end of SB 42? Or what about if a healthy Gronk is two feet closer to the jump ball at the end of SB 46?
Winning the SB still requires only a four-game playoff run. People can elevate their games over four games, especially when it's a team game. I don't think much of Flacco as a quarterback at all. I think he has a big arm but isn't a great decision maker or precision passer. He went on a nice run and got some help along the way (like everyone does in some fashion). It doesn't elevate him to some mystical figure of guys who are able to win the big game.
Is it possible that there are some headcases, or guys who tighten up in pressure situations? Of course. But I think the number of people who "choke" are far lower than what people think. These guys are the best of the best and most of them have a lot of confidence in their abilities.
All I know is that Eli has won 2 SB rings. A feat that normally places you and keeps you in the Pantheon of all-time greats. The how, the what if's and the could've beens are all just smokescreens blurring the fact that it has already been accomplished.
For all we know, Luck turns out to be Drew Bledsoe.
I'll take the Devil I know over the one I don't when the crafty Devil has already won 2 titles.
Manwhile a guy like Kobe has this clutch reputation that is really not backed up by any available data whatsoever other than ring counting (and there are more extenuating circumstances for that than I care to go in depth with on a football thread)
Have any idea who is one of the 3-4 best active QBs career wise in the 4th quarter with the scoring margin within one TD? None other than Tony Romo. 4th quarter score less than 7 points, guy has been incredible.
1)Eli, Brady, Peyton, Brees will play into their 40s and most likely at a high level because they keep themselves in great shape and save for Peyton, none have had career threatening injuries..
QBs playing into their 40s will become the norm assuming they are not running QBs..
Eli has about 8-10 seasons left with good health..Luck's career can end as easily as Eli's as most of today's severe injuries know no age and are as career-threatening to the young as they are to the long term vet..We're not talking about the aches and pains the young recover quicker from..
2-Montana, Brady, Ben and Eli are the only QBs that have consistently gotten the job done with the SB on the line..Others will win it, but few will make it their own when the pressure is unbearable as these people can..Eli has taken it a step further..Twice..
Eli and it's not even close imv
It can't be both ways.
And the problem with Romo and being great with the score close late is it wouldn't have been close if he didn't throw three first quarter picks. You dig a hole so big the defense lets up, your stats look better and you now get credit for it?
I'm not trying to over "romanticize" the idea of Eli Mannings clutch ability.. but the fact of the matter is that he's got a pretty nice resume in big situations (and there are numbers that back it up).
Some guys come through when their team needs them to.. some guys puke.
And with Romo im not just talking about last years game at Dallas. Im talking career. The guy has been incredible in the 4th quarter of his career in close games. Weird for a guy who is the least clutch QB ever
Rodgers 104.1
Tony Romo 98.4
Eli Manning 96.0
Peyton Manning 93.0
Drew Brees 92.2
Far right for more advanced numbers - ( New Window )
Honestly, I try to give you the benefit of the doubt in most cases, but your whole spin about Eli is really quite laughable
A real NFL GM, including our own JR, makes the deal in a nanosecond. Of course it's totally hypothetical, because the Colts don't make the deal unless at least 2 #1 draft picks come along with Eli for Luck.
Montana 1
Roethliesberger 1
Everyone else in NFL history: 0