When do Eli/Coughlin/Gilbride/Reese/etc... haters answer?

I hope Homer and Paul don't mind me posting their responses to my question:

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Success Homersimpson : 9:22 am breeds a lot of stupidity in Fanbases of any pro team, IMO. We haven't seen a losing football season for 10 years. We've definitely had some disappointments along the way, but never finished worse than 8-8. It's pretty amazing. After the 2nd Super Bowl, media-types were saying that Coughlin and Eli would never be criticized again. We're 18 months removed from that championship, and there's most definitely a faction of the fanbase that would ship one or both out on the next boat without a second thought. That says a lot more about the fan than it does the player or coach. We're in the midst of the best run of Giants football I've ever seen. I try to enjoy it as much as I can. I think some fans just won't really ever enjoy it. That's on them. And it sucks that we have to deal with that type of fan. I mean, really...anyone trying to downplay what this team has done (particularly in the championship years) is just a sour person without a real solid grasp on reality.

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Britt PaulBlakeTSU : 9:30 am I think it's a trying to avoid pulling out your hair. We have what many call a HOF coach, a HOF quarterback in his prime, and one of the best GMs in the league. We have a QB who is unfazed no matter how big the moment, and we have players who have already proven they can win big games in a multitude of ways. So, as a fan, how do you reconcile all of that with the hit-or-miss results that the Giants have? And I mean that in terms of how often they play down to their competition, miss the playoffs, or have paltry first round playoff performances. Teams with this setup should be considered an elite team year in and year out, the way the teams with the other great QB and/or great coaches do-- like the Packers, Saints, Patriots and Colts/Broncos have been. I, and many concerned GIants fans, are very grateful and ecstatic over the two Giants championships. They were magical runs. But logic and reason sets in and it does start to look more like good fortune and stars aligning than design when the teams hasn't shown the ability to repeat their success over the larger sample sizes of regular seasons year in and year out.

It goes across all sports.

we hold them to a high standard. When they have reached the heights that we've reached, we want that consistently and if it's less than that, I personally know I can be critical. But I don't think of myself as a hater, and I don't think that someone who complains is always a hater...

These handles seem to suggest its not just a NY thing

are the "haters"?

some current threads on the board.

"When does Reese answer" and "Eli haters".

like fungus

If you haven't noticed this behavior then it is what it is, guess we can just agree to disagree.

Absolutely.

From the SNL/Belushi stuff, it was pretty clear that while a ton of BBIers never saw Belushi, those were pretty lean Giants years. So it stands to reason that, like in life in general ... when you haven't really experienced "hard times," you can get a little jaded by the last few years.

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I have a lot of friends who a fans of other NFL teams and they are just as fickle. My buddies from college are Eagles fans and they were constantly killing McNabb and Reid during the height of the run. Redskins fans are swing high and low week to week more than any fanbase I know. They are not the most informed group of people in my experience. I think all in all the Giants fans are pretty reasonable. Every fanbase has idiots and I would be the people looking to ship out Eli and Coughlin are younger and little bit spoiled.

!

We are always competitive year in and year out save for some total stinkers(happens to every team)..

We have one of the best HCs in football and one of the best GMs in football..

We have the best clutch QB in football, capable at times of carrying an underperforming team on its back..

Why would I complain? Because at times we totally suck? Because we miss the playoffs at times?(Keep lumping in our 10-6 finish in 2010 in the "we've missed the playoffs in 3 of 4 years." Yea, you're technically correct. Clap! Clap!)

We are one of the few teams that most likely will start out 0-2 and still probably win the division(I don't care WHAT our record is, just get in!)..

As long as this regime is here and Eli is here, WTF should I complain about given the bottom line body of work?..

is that some people think that a different opinion makes them an "out of the box" thinker.

Another part of it is a reaction to people who are too "rah-rah". And let's face it, a lot of people react to the negative guys, hence this thread and a lot of the posts I make.

Another part of it is that some people have little understanding of what else goes on with the other teamsin the league, so they look at the Giants is a vacuum.

Frankly, most of it is pretty innocuous unless the person being negative truly thinks they have some revolutionary idea and are smarter than the coaches and players. Unfortunately, there are probably a few of those guys here.

Personally, I can't see why I'd waste a good portion of my time rooting for a team and then become a pissy cunt when they fail to entertain me properly, and that's really what a lot of it boils down to.

And people are jealous that other people are making a living in it

Thats why there particular disdain for guys in the media

We can simultaneously appreciate the Super Bowl wins while criticize them for their failures.

As a fan, Super Bowls trump all. Always will. 20 years from now I'll think of the 2 (and hopefully more) SB wins from this era, not years like last year or even 2010. With that said, the people constantly posting 'TWO SUPER BOWLS' in any discussion about our management, coaches, and QB dilutes football discussions. Recognizing you'd take our record in the past decade over any other teams doesn't mean we can't point out their failings.

you can criticize people-I've criticized TC for being too loyal to the detriment of the team, ala David Diehl-but some definitely take it up a notch & want to send them all packing.

And if you want to criticize Gilbride's playcalling, fine. You're a fan. I don't always love it either, but he has been the OC for a pretty successful offense.

Can someone be critical of bad moves or plays without being labeled a hater?

I like Reese, I like Coughlin and I like Eli, but none of the three are infallible.

What is so bad about praising the positive and criticizing the negative?

Extremes are almost never good, but I don't see why a healthy balance is a bad thing and people exhibiting such behavior need to be labeled.

I also think the extremism is limited to a small group.

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With that said, the people constantly posting 'TWO SUPER BOWLS' in any discussion about our management, coaches, and QB dilutes football discussions. Recognizing you'd take our record in the past decade over any other teams doesn't mean we can't point out their failings.

I'd take our last 6 years over any other team in the league. That doesn't mean we haven't fucking sucked and blown opportunities at times in the off-Super Bowl years and it doesn't mean I can't be pissed off about it.

Also, I love Eli, but two rings is not the answer to an Eli/Peyton debate. Get over it, BBI.

And the true number of 'haters' is vastly overrated - there are only a handful that come to mind on this board.

There are more strawmen about them than actually exist.

psychotic, but he's right.

Hater.

Ask the same question after a win and you get different answers. What we're dealing with here is human nature.

You did it right after a he fumbled twice in a loss. Like I said, human nature.

:)

but unlike the people in the threadstart, Wilson has yet to EARN the benefit of the doubt.

where are the people are "tearing down" Eli, Coughlin, Gilbride, and Reese "at every turn"? It should be pretty easy to name some names and provide tons of examples.

It would be useful to further the discussion if we could point out some of the numerous posts where Eli Manning is called a bad QB. Or maybe where people are calling for Coughlin or Reese to be fired "at every turn".

Once we have those posts and can review them, I think we'll be able to dig in and start answering some of these questions about the Giants fan base.

I am going to ask you this question, and its not to start a fight, I am just curious of your opinion.

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I think one part of it... FatMan in Charlotte : 9:46 am is that some people think that a different opinion makes them an "out of the box" thinker. Another part of it is a reaction to people who are too "rah-rah". And let's face it, a lot of people react to the negative guys, hence this thread and a lot of the posts I make. Another part of it is that some people have little understanding of what else goes on with the other teamsin the league, so they look at the Giants is a vacuum. Frankly, most of it is pretty innocuous unless the person being negative truly thinks they have some revolutionary idea and are smarter than the coaches and players. Unfortunately, there are probably a few of those guys here. Personally, I can't see why I'd waste a good portion of my time rooting for a team and then become a pissy cunt when they fail to entertain me properly, and that's really what a lot of it boils down to.

Have we reached our potential with this era of the Giants? With Eli and TC, with some very good receivers, some good defensive players, etc. Should this era have accomplished "more".

My response: The 2 SBs in 6 years should shut a lot of people up. Those seasons are going to be forever engraved in our heads as just wild, unimaginable great years. Now the other 4 years, there was a lot of disappointment. Many of us would say 2008 was a blown opportunity because of what Plax did.

However the other three seasons, we were soooooooo close, yet outside looking in. Whether it had to with with an unlucky bounce, failure to convert a TD, blowing a game against Philly, or whatever - it just seems like every year we need to squeeze into the playoffs or barely just miss it. Thats where I think some fans gripe. We shouldnt have to worry about squeezing in year in and year out. There's talent enough to win 11-12 games, but we always do something to cost us games. Its pretty infuriating.

So I am just asking, have the Giants fulfilled their potential in the last 6 years?

I think game day and the day after is when you get the extremists coming to the fore. We're not talking anger at a play or player in a given moment, we all do that. It's the extreme proclamations made OVER and OVER during game day and the following day. THAT's what many of us dislike intensely..So, I think the perceptions here are skewed by those two days..

The rest of the week? Pretty much normalcy with differences of opinions which few really take issue with..

fans. They rooted for a team that had all-stars at every position and they came to expect nothing less than a champion.

I realize that not all the "haters" come from that group but I believe they contribute to it.

this on the Eli Haters thread that prompted this thread.

"and I understand
PaulBlakeTSU : 9:39 am
the common retort of how many rings the Giants have over the last handful of years and that fans of those teams would trade places with the Giants for the number of rings, but that is an overly-simplistic answer and ignores other rewards of being a fan.

There's something to be said about the excitement each season when you have the makings of a great team and you watch them perform very well all season. It gives a long-lasting enjoyment, and a pleasure from the realistic hope of winning it all.

If that didn't matter, then there would never be a purpose to watching the regular season."

IMO - we've exceeded our potential in terms of hardware, but have probably disappointed in terms of overall playoff appearances. That's the conundrum we face. People are expecting success because the 2 SB's, and probably rightfully so, but it is almost as if they don't want to hear anyone say "We've won TWO SB's HOORAY", but they often want to repeat "We've missed the playoffs 4 out of 6 years". You really can't have it both ways.

I see us as being realy consistent year after year, which is a notch above the average. Some of those years, we've snuck in the playoffs, got momentum, and won it all. Some of those years we've narrowly missed making the playoffs and sit home in January. The only time we seemed dominant was in 2008, but we saw what happened with Plax and the collapse.

Look, most of my frustration isn't with criticism - it is with eiher unfounded criticism o reactionary criticism. As relatively ignorant fans, we should be more inclined to enjoy success anyway because we are simply along for the ride. To criticize knwledgeably, people have to have some football acumen to do this successfully. You really don't need that to simply cheer along, but if you lack that and then make a rant about play-calling, coaching, or specific players, it will be really easy to pick apart and categorize as whining.

of patience and vision is all it is. We over-react tpo wins and losses. If we win Sunday, Superbowl will get tossed around. If we lose Sunday, Drafting Clowney #1 overall will get tossed around. There is just a lack of understanding (in the moment) that a season consists of wins, losses, ups and downs.

There is also a lack of understanding of the parity in the NFL. Bad teams beat good teams all the time. Mediocre teams beat great teams all the time. 10-6 gets you in the playoffs 90% of the time, which means there are very few dominant teams, a smany teams are right around this mark.

I think it's the inconsistency that is most frustrating. Our coach is puzzling at times in his approach in that he can be stubborningly loyal when we all see the ineffectiveness of players such as Diehl. Or appear to lack creativity in strategy (i.e. put the ball in Eli's hand instead of trying to force a balanced attack.) In this respective, I think some fans are frustrated because 1) they think they know more than the coaching staff in which their thinking would produce a better result and 2) the results are so mixed with this team. We see the highs of starting 6-2 every year (with exception of a 7-1 and 5-3 start), yet the consistently mediocre second halfs year after year.

Personally, looking at the total body of work, I am more than pleased with the Eli/Coughlin/Reese era. I'm still on the fence with Kildrive, but again he is just as responsible for the success as anyone:) Every year we are in contention for the playoffs, so as a fan that's is what I want. I don't want to be apart of a fanbase that by week 8 is looking ahead to the draft! And add to the fact that we are always competing for a playoff spot, we have managed to bring home 2 Lombardis and did so in such dramatic fashion! Other fan bases call it fortunate, lucky, a fluke; yet none of the other teams could put together a run like our two runs. Let me cap for you spoiled fans on here:
07 - went on the road to win all NFC playoff games to include knocking off the #1 seed Cowboys and #2 Brett Favre-led Packers in one of if not the toughest atmospheres to win a game in January. Then topped it off with beaten quite possibly the greatest team ever assembled.
11 - defeating a talented ATL team at home, then going to the 15-1 Packers and then on to the tough, vaunted 49ers team led by a tough and rugged D. That game IMO was Eli's signature game....he took hit after hit, yet was on the money all game long! Then had the rematch against the Pats; whom most thought were out for revenge.

While this team is consistently inconsistent:), I love Big Blue. And for those of you that have already given up on 2013, I caution you against that. As long as we have #10 under center, never count this team out!!

I think so. Personally. I think that the one season where I would say that we definitely failed to meet expectations was the 2009. But if you told me just to look at the rosters over that 6 year period, I might have been happy with 1 Superbowl, actually.

But back to the point, I think its possible to be critical without it being hate. I think that it's a possible overreaction to by the people who are being sensitive about the team, or just disagree with someone's critique and then labels it as hate. I mean, I love the Giants, but I can be critical and have different criticisms as other people who are frustrated.

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I see us as being realy consistent year after year, which is a notch above the average.

I think the big problem is why are we consistently only a notch above average? We've shown the ability to run the gauntlet twice against the best teams in the league-- on the road.

More than that, again, we supposedly have a HOF QB in his prime, a HOF coach, and one of the smartest GMs in the league. This is our golden era. Shouldn't we be consistently better over the regular season than "a notch above the average"?

I think therein lies the frustration.

This is what really sums it up for me...

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Every year we are in contention for the playoffs, so as a fan that's is what I want. I don't want to be apart of a fanbase that by week 8 is looking ahead to the draft!

This is the business of entertainment. I believe we are fortunate to be in an era where we are entertained right up until the end every season.

I think more than anything, the rings, the failures, etc... That's the bottom line for me. I believe every single season that the Giants have a shot. A lot of fanbases, even with parity, don't have that luxury.

makes a good point.

Being a top 10 offense is very good, and Gilbride is a huge reason for that. But maybe we should be top 7? Top 5? Top 3?

I think it comes from the fans(fanatics) because we want our team to be successful and win all the time.

It's easy to point out the mistakes we see or to make suggestions when things aren't going right. It's human nature.

Giants fans are passionate and compared to the majority of the NFL fans base I feel that we're really in tune and understand the game better than most. Shit just look at how myopic Deadskin and Cowgirl fans are.

Hell I don't think people still realize how lucky we are to have Eli and that guy gets dumped on in here like it's nobody’s business.

As a whole I think we are really lucky to have the Reese, Coughlin and the rest of the coaches that we have. Do they make mistakes? Absolutely, but shit we all do every day it's just that they are under a huge microscope. I work in a job that has 13,000 auditors checking out shit you do every day and nothing gets by them. Can you imagine how many NYG fans there are and how we criticize and critic this team and managements every move. I know exactly how they feel.

league designed parity.. sustained dominance is not happening.

By my definition the Giants have had a better 2007-2012 than any other team in the league. There seems to be a group however that puts a higher emphasis on making the playoffs every year. I don't agree with that, because making the playoffs (particularly in the parity era) is in part a function of how the rest of the conference performs. The 2011 Giants made the playoffs despite being a worse team than the 2010 and 2012 teams.

We've seen seasons where this group made the playoffs and didn't win the Super Bowl. Are 2005, 2006, and 2008 gold star seasons compared to 2009, 2010, and 2012? Not to me. The Giants could have gone 0-16 in each of those seasons...if 2007 and 2011 still bring us Super Bowls, the era has been a huge success.

This era has been a huge unmitigated success. It had brought me more joy than any other in my 25+ years as a fan.

It's about the titles. Nothing else.

they can't just chalk things up to the fact the NFL is an extremely tough, competitive league. When things go wrong many fans have no other recourse but to find a scapegoat, whether warranted or not, and lash out at that individual. Thing is, I don't think people realize how much luck is involved in the pro sports paradigm. It's not exactly an exact science.

It's easier for a fan to just destroy the powers that be or the player rather than pull back and examine things with a wide lens.

The finest line separates winners from losers in today's NFL. A shit load of luck is involved but the consistent teams put themselves in position to succeed by doing things the right way. But that only takes a team so far. Fans look past that when a team goes 9-7. They want blood.

It's fucking hard to win more games than you lose every year.

Is that our offensive scheme is too difficult for rookie skill players to pick up in 1-2 years. Its not the old days. Ya can't waste the first year or two of a high draft simply because the playbook is complicated. Need to evolve. Randall Cobb for example was solid from game one in green bay. Gotta maximize value.

But I think we overestimate the talent on this team. We are in a division with 4 teams with pretty much the same makeup - teams that are consistently inconsistent game to game, but have been fairly consistent year after year.

I think that people judge our talent based on what we had with everyone in their prime and a lot of people underestimate the clustering of injuries that has happened.

I get the frustration, but even that is done in a vacuum. Even a team like SF is considerd to be superior, but they didn't even beat the Rams last year. Nearly everyone has those games that are head-scratchers, but it gets highlighted here because it is close to us.

Frankly, should we be better or have we overachieved? I really don't know, so me going on a rant about coaches with heads up their asses or players being lazy is just misdirected anger and/or frustration. When we are consistently in the 9-7 and 10-6 area, I think we've seen the results to expect. A few playoff appearances and a few misses. We just happened to win it all two of those times, which probably heightens expectations.

Look at the Steelers as a mirror team. They've made the playoffs regularly, often with records at or just slightly better than ours, but in some of those playoff years, they went out quick. Twice, they won it all. A level of consistency just slightly better than ours, but with no more rings to show. Trams like the Saints, Niner,s Packers or Falcons have had even worse results in terms of rings, but they are given all the press.

I struggle with being disappointed because we have the two rings, and frankly expecting more seems reasonable on one hand and wildly presumptive on the other.

In 2010, if the Giants don't collapse against the Eagles, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs.

That's pretty crazy when you think about it, considering what played out afterwards.

You can pretty much do that with teams every year in the parity era.

along with a rabid fan base and you have today's sports landscape.

The media has a huge influence on the fan's mentality.

is it's a perfect example that no matter how good you are, in the NFL, your destiny isn't always in your own hands.

it is amazing the line between the Super Bowl and missing the playoffs. Go Terps and I have brought this up many times.

In 2007, we don't make the playoffs without getting lucky. In their Super Bowl win, the Packers don't get in if we beat the Eagles. In 2011, we don't get in for a variety of reasons, but front and center is Romo missing a wide-open WR. Last year, the Ravens were charmed. First, they don't get into teh playoffs if it ween't for a 4th down and 21 pickup vs. the Charegrs and he other was a blown coverage on a Hail Mary against the Broncos.

The line is razor thin between Champ and Chump.

is that the Giants compete more often than not. All this talk of no playoffs 3-4 seasons is just horse shit. Why not mention that the Giants have won 9 games or more in every season but two since 2005...why not mention the 2 super bowls since 2007. Nope...the'd rather focus on the negatives because negative sells.

There isn't one single fan base that wouldn't trade their 3 year stretch for ours except for the Packers and Ravens.

I agree. There are some very stupid posts on here, especially when emotions are running high. There are a few crazy people on here that consistently post crazy things. And there are often a few hit and run posters who show up after a game, start some dumb threads and tend to disappear. And there are some random troll-type posters who get a rise out of people.

I think that attempting to eradicate the lunatic fringe of message board population is kind of silly. Those people are going to pop up and you just kind of scan through their posts and either ignore them or write some kind of pithy response.

For the mass of BBI, I just don't see the volume of "haters" of Coughlin, Eli, and Reese. Gilbride does suffer some opposition, so I'd buy that to some extent. But look at the Reese thread. There's one moron who made the initial post and then probably 85% of the subsequent posts were defending Reese or at worst providing a reasoned critique of some of his moves.

And I'd also add that for every wild negative post on here, there is at least one wildly positive post, probably more.

that every week I can sit down at a poker table with two dallas fans, a jets fan and a steelers fan and feel pretty good about what my team has accomplished is all I need.

You think we have it rough or that our team underachieves? Try being a fan of EVERY other team in the NFL.

Every fan base suffers. We suffer less.

by Fatman as it pertains to injuries.

I think we fail to really reaize that usually the teams that stay the healthiest over the course of the year are the ones left standing at the end.

9:53 post. Why can't there be balance. Why can't you question the validity of some of Reese's philosophies or decisions?

There is a knee-jerk greek chorus on this board that sometimes substitutes "In Reese We Trust" for any critical thinkig.

Also, just because you challenge or question decisions doesn't mean you think people should be fired.

I think its perfectly legitimate to question the organization's devaluing of the LB position when your entire LB corps is composed of cast-offs and neverbeens most of who can't get to the QB or cover the TE.

I also think it is fair game not to have brought in a proven veteran RB before the start of the season.

Nevertheless, I think one of Reese's greatest strengths is his willingness to recognize a mistake and make a yeoman's effort to rectify the error. Remember the year when we had only three safeties and CC Brown ended up as a starter? Reese goes out the next year and immediately signs Antrell Rolle.

complaining about the LB's and RB's probably don't take into account the resources dedicated to other positions, what the effect is on the cap to sign veterans, and what the ramifications are for providing better depth or starting calibre players.

Simply put, most times we only have our own eyes to make assumptions and our ears that are tuned to ESPN or the NFL Network talking heads. There is so much information out there we don't know.

That's why I said it is easier to root for a team and be positive instead of criticizing and being negative. Rooting for a team takes very little knowledge, but if you are going to ctiticize, there is a completely different standard that should be expected in the argumentation.

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can anyone answer WHO was available in the draft at LB that was worth a high pick, aside from perhaps Navarro Bowman(2nd rounder?)?

We picked a RB in the first round, an OL in the first round(in addition to picks in the high rounds through the years), we picked a CB in the first round..We are addressing our needs as best as we can and have the hardware to prove it..

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questions. The LBs take in the 2nd round last year are all either very good now or will be.

But we were in love with Wilson, so none of them were an option.

that I blast my teams after a tough stretch. We all get mad...I was miserable last sunday night but I usually cool off after a day or two and try to focus on the big picture.

many here would be better off keeping their anger to themselves after a tough game. We all get worked up but most don't post their anger in lights for all of BBI to see. It does make for some amusing reading, though.

This is a strange team. I can't think of another team that's been as frankly uneven as the Giants in the past eight seasons, and that's in any era in any sport. Two championships when they weren't one of the better teams in the league through the course of the season, surrounded by seasons riddled with late-season collapses, humiliating routs and zero playoff wins. They are a hard team to put much faith in, that's for sure.

Terps - I know you're old enough to remember the Parcells Giants, so how you can say this is the greatest era of Giants football you've ever seen is baffling. That team was fearsome. This team, no one ever has any idea what the hell to expect.

were definitely awesome. And they won they exact same amount of shit that this Coughlin team has won.

It's a different era and as much as this Coughlin team personifies this wacky era of NFL football, those Parcells teams left a few wins on the field as well.

The 80s Giants and this Giants era couldn't be more different but in the end their stories are very similar. Lest we forget this team isn't done yet.

For all its strengths, the current Giant's organization has been craptastic at evaluating LB talent, at least from a draft perspective. Look at the names,

Sintim-- tried to put a square peg in a round hole
Kehl- Traded up to pick him, Is he out of the league now?
Dillard-- undersized MLB
Tracy-- Another tweener
Goff- What might have been?

I think the best of the lot is Jaiquan Williams a 6th round pick.

THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS.

as as fan since 56 I too rmember very well the era of non-competitiveness you refer to

But that doesn't fly with younger fans. They want a play off team every year. Funnry thing is they have that mentality becasue of the success of the very people they degrade

Go back and really look at those Parcells Giants and you'll see a bunch of maddening performances. 1988 alone had 4 or 5 spine crushing losses of epic stupidity. The Ram playoff loss was horrible...and one that on rewatching I can tell you does not happen with Eli at QB.

How many historic playoff wins have we had in this era? At Dallas, twice at Green Bay, at San Francisco, and two all time Super Bowl wins.

I agree the Parcells teams were better man to man...at least on defense anyway. But the sheer quality of some of the wins in this era has been unbelievable. We've got 5 or 6 wins since 2007 that are better than any win many franchises have had in their entire history.

There is no 1991 around the corner about to smack us in the face.

If you haven't been enjoying these years I feel sorry for you, because there's a good chance it never gets better.

in place(franchise QB, top coach, quality front office) to make deep playoff runs every year. It's ok to celebrate our successes while simultaneously wondering why the hell there hasn't been more of it.

I will say this. Who wants to be satisfied? I'm not a hater - but I root for this team every year and every year it's a new year. I love the Super Bowls. I love the success but if I stopped caring then why would I watch? I think it's best to appreciate what you have looking backwards but continue to have high expectations moving forward.

every time I sit down at the poker table I thank the football gods for where this team sits this very moment.

Think about where we sat before 2007. You walked into a room with Dallas, Niners, Skins, Steelers, Raiders, Pats and Packers fans and what could you say?

Today? We don't have to say a word. We're as good or better than all those fan bases and the ones that have more chips than us, Niners and Dallas, we can at least hang our hat on the Giants stepping on those two teams on their way to super bowl glory.

I couldn't ask for more from this Giants team.

Between genuine criticism of certain decisions or plays made and people 'hating' Reese, Coughlin, Eli, etc.

I love Eli and having grown up watching Joe Pisarcik, Scott Brunner, et al QB this team, I appreciate how special a player he is. But criticizing him for a bad pass or bad game does not make anyone a 'hater'. Similarly, criticizing Coughlin for continuing to play Dielhl or Reese for not finding adequate LBs is not hating. Most of us universally respect and appreciate what these guys have built. That doesn't mean we need to blindly love every decision they make.

So is this thread pointed at the large group of fans who question certain plays/decisions, or the handful of idiots that think these guys should be run out of town? Not sure there is any argument on the latter.

This collection of over emotional, over sensitive fans exists in all sports for all teams and these are common traits for some humans. You'll never get rid of it and I admit that I often try to keep those fans in check.

The stupidity of those type of posts all fall under the fact that those making the posts couldn't possibly have anything near the knowlege or experience of those who make the decisions they are questioning or annoyingly complaining about. And that's a fact so if they want to sound stupid that's on them but I do understand that it is all part of human emotions driving these things and as much as I hate those posts and may go as far as to put them down, I don't hate those posters and I respect their solid fanship of our team.

What I don't respect are those that do it simply to annoy. In those cases the person with that agenda simply does not yet have a mature mind. I may not know who they are but they do.

is because it's a fun part of being a fan. Why do so many people come to this site and spend hours debating whether the GM made a bad draft pick or the QB made a bad throw. Because they enjoy it.

And criticizing a couple of draft decisions does not mean that you hate Reese. I don't know where the widespread use of the word "hater" came from but it is used too much.

of haters being exposed here.

How positive and appreciative they need to be as fans? Is your enjoyment of the Giants so tenuous its threatened by some negativity?

And they'll always be #1 in my heart, but as Terps said, I wouldn't hold them up like some 49er-like dynasty compared to the current version. A mediocre season post-Super Bowl (1987)? Blowing the playoffs in the final weeks of the season (1988)? A heart-stomping playoff performance (1989)? A bunch of games where one of our major units (offense under Parcells, defense under TC) struggled to be even mediocre? Sounds an awful lot like the present.

I get frustrated with the ups and downs as well, but that's today's NFL has been jiggered to be. Of the last 6 or 7 Super Bowl winners, how many were traditional powerhouses who led wire-to-wire? 2009 Saints, maybe? Packers, Giants, Ravens all were probably around #4 in their conference in terms of regular season performance and they all got hot at the right time. It's a battle of attrition more than ever, you just have to weather the storms and try to be ready if you get a chance.

It would be way easier on my heart if the Giants could be more consistent though. ;-)

As good as those 80's teams were, 87 they were 6-6, 88 they shit the bed the last game to miss the playoffs, 89 they f'd up the playoff game.

The 90 team was really a different team by that point.

The 86 team was just a ridiculously talented team

Cowboy fans..Constantly reminding everyone that they have 5 rings..Even thought it's been almost 20 years, they still make the argument..

So the question is, how long can the " we got a ring" statement end any debate?

But they never did anything as pathetic as the close of 2009, getting knocked out of the playoffs, at home, by a shitty nothing-to-play-for Panthers team with their shitty backup QB torching the Giants to the tune of 41-9, followed by a 44-7 rout at the hands of the Vikings. Or 2010's humiliating back-to-back of the Eagles meltdown followed by the 45-17 thrashing in Green Bay. Or last season's 34-0/33-14 back to back debacles that cost them a playoff berth.

I always felt confident in the Giants back in the '80s. They didn't always win, but I knew they could compete. Far too often the recent Giants have looked like McNeese State playing Alabama.

I, for one, truly appreciate what we have here. The consistency of a franchise QB, a stable coach, and a GM that doesn't always mortgage the future makes it fun to be a Giants fan now.

Being an armchair GM is fun and, in part, has lead to growth/popularity of this league. As we are the armchair variety, we get to criticize every action almost in a vacuum - unfortunately, for a real GM that isn't the case.

To address the LB debate, we have salary cap implications to consider always as well. With a franchise QB, taking a LB, a relatively low paying position in the NFL, within the 1st 2 rounds of a draft doesn't really make sense when you're trying to manage a cap. That being said, neither does taking a RB, but they believed they found a tremendous athlete in DW and hence pulled the trigger. I've got to assume if we found a similar LB we were as high on we would have done the same.

I'm happy with this roster construction currently and to be a Giants fan in general. This is despite the fact that I cringe at times watching this current corps linebacker play. In this salary cap age, all teams are going to have some holes - ours just happens to be at LB (and not, as others have mentioned, at S + RB).

I personally find the-over-top stuff annoying from either direction. Be it the, "how can we lose - we're the most talented team in the league" or the, "none of our linebackers deserve to be on an NFL roster" side.

There is no doubt that people make legitimate arguements about the issues they are concerned about but many times it gets stretched out to ridiculous points.

I mean, yes someone can have problems with ball security but to state that the same person didn't make some progress in that area last year underminds the credibility of your arguement about how much it is a concern going forward.

Other guys are quick to acknowledge grey areas when discussing less than wonderous performances from players/coaches they support while dismissing the validity of similar issues that would lessen the blame assigned to those they don't like.

Nicky's point about maturity is a good one but it's not just maturity that lacking but self-awareness with some posters about the rationalization they use to justified their posts. Sometimes you got to remember you're not married to those words and it's okay to be wrong once in a while. I know I have been

Yeah, Simms played like crap in that one. Very similar to how Eli played against the Eagles in 2008. Good QBs have bad playoff games sometimes.

I'm going to go on an anonymous message board and say something really mean.

We are one year removed from the title. One year. If I'm still saying that in 10 years, fine.

If we're going through this angst, what are your thoughts on the Packers? Patriots? 49ers? We've won more recently than all of them (and beaten all three in their stadium in the process), yet the common perception seems to be that they are playing better football than we. That they have less reason to be agitated than we.

That is not true.

If BBI had been around in 1988 this board would have exploded. The 49er loss was as stupid as any we've had in this era. The Eagles losses were excruciating. Then to wrap it up was the season ending humiliation at the hands of the Jets that cost us not just a playoff spot but a division title and a home playoff game.

I loved those Parcells teams...shit they were my introduction into the sport and that connection never goes away. But they were subject to brutal, brutal losses against inferior teams too.

For as brutal as BBI has been this week, threads like this keep me coming back. Some great discussion from posters who I wish posted more. Nice job, folks.

Carry on!

I will grant you this team has had more of those types of losses

That post wasn't a complaint. It was just a tongue in cheek statement..

Sorry about that.

The thread title is just a play off a couple of current Corner Forum threads.

But it was the Niners. Getting blown out by Matt Moore at home with the playoffs on the line is several orders of magnitudes worse.

Anyway, it's tomato-tomahto. I don't like what the league has become, I don't like that the Giants have essentially turned into the 1981 Chargers, and because of those facts I'm not as in love with the Coughlin Giants as many others. Your milage may vary.




Homer - I wish you'd return to Yankee threads, although I completely understand why you don't.

but if they didn't turn into that they wouldn't compete as well as they have.

2009 was horrible, agreed. But 2011 was far more awesome than 2009 was bad. Far, far more.

Aarrrgghhhhh !!!

in 2009 with the most cippled Defense I've ever seen fielded(not the worst ever, just the most crippled ever) is to this day a total puzzlement..We were the WORST D in the league by that time with key starters AND THEIR BACKUPS sitting out...An injury armageddon, imv

.

.

Alright not really. I have been wondering about this for a long time. Back when the Yankees would get knocked out of the playoffs thirty years ago, everyone in NY thought George was crazy for apologizing to NY when his playoff team didn't win it all. Then we got the FAN a few years later, and I swear the "nothing matters if you don't win it all" mentality spread. Obviously SB trophies are the most important goal and can be used to validate the giants or complain about them when we don't win. But NY wasn't always so critical. I really believe the act of having to come up with topics 24/7 on sports radio has changed the discussion and increased the complaining. And I think the more critical attitude has been learned here over time.

Eli is considered a Top 5 QB on BBI
Coughlin is considered a Top 3 HC on BBI
Reese is considered a Top 5 GM on BBI
Mara is considered the best owner in the NFL on BBI

According to BBI, the New York Giants have the best combo of Owner/GM/HC/QB in the entire league. That's the backbone of a Franchise, to have the best group in the league means a lot.

The Giants are 18-15 since 2011

If all those guys are as good as BBI thinks, then why does this team constantly need Eli to save their ass in the 4th quarter just to stay above the .500 mark?

Eli: Great player but not consistent, goes through slumps that other top QBs don't
Coughlin: Great coach but he's an offensive coach first and our defensive inconsistencies have hurt a ton in recent years
Reese: He's done a great job acquiring top talent, but the depth of this team has been weak and that's hurt late in the season when we usually play poorly

This team has enough top end talent to threaten any team in the league if they are playing well, especially Eli and the DL. But I think it's fair to question why this team is only 18-15 in the regular season since 2011, when they've proven that their ceiling as a team is as high as anyone's.

I think there are people that can support the team without being a homer, and critical of the team without being a hater.

As I mentioned above, I'm more exploring the extremes, and there are a large majority of them out there, and here.

One could probably say, and has been said in a roundabout way, "why don't you get on the people that are pro Giant no matter what, what about them?"

Well, quite frankly, if I asked somebody "why do you always think the Giants are going to be awesome?"... The answer would probably be boring. "I grew up rooting for them, I love them, so I choose to think the best". Or... "They're my team, why wouldn't I love them?" Pretty boring answers, although hard to argue with, really.

But it's the really negative people that I find intersting. The people that really get on "insert name here"... They just can't get past any negatives and harp on them, beat them to death, to the point where they move into so called "hater" territory.

Those are the people I find interesting, because they are a paradox. They hate people on teams that they love and want to be successful. It's quite fascinating, really.

with some great comments, great job all.

Quote:

dep said: We shouldnt have to worry about squeezing in year in and year out. There's talent enough to win 11-12 games, but we always do something to cost us games. Its pretty infuriating. So I am just asking, have the Giants fulfilled their potential in the last 6 years?

Well said, I agree with the idea that after two SB victories, especially the one in 2007, it seems we should not have to worry about squeezing in every year.

But I will admit to being spoiled by those teams. I will also admit that the Parcells defenses spoiled me, I got so used to watching those guys and all their 3 and outs, that the Fewell bend-don't-break style is just so frustrating to watch.

I keep thinking with our power on offense, all we need is just an average defense and we should win 10-12 every year.

But in the end, it's the injuries, always the injuries, and it just seems like we are snakebit more then most teams with our injuries. (Except for #10 of course, knock on wood.)

I know that is probably just myopic on my part, other teams lose guys where they are thin, just like the Giants always seem to do...don't they?

It's a fact that Jerry Reese has won 2 of the last 6 Super Bowls (it's 6 now, not 5 any more, for as long as he's an active GM, this number is also actively increasing, title or no title), but it's also a fact that he inherited the greatest contributor to that amazing success from his predecessor.

Plus, what's your greatest fear as a Giants fan? For me, it's that awful prospect that, when Eli retires, say 7 years from now, our toast to his farewell being "Oh we have won 2 of the last 13 Super Bowls!" That will be a great pain, because that will have meant leaving championships on the table during Eli's prime. Mr. Reese himself has as much urgency as anyone for that, and does not want any of this "2 titles in a 5-yr window" reflection.

look at some of the articles on Derek Jeter in the last coupld of days. its insane

That's greatness. Without Eli this team is in the running for the 1st pick overall.

No problem buddy...But i do get that argument a lot and it drives me batty..

also when we lose we lose some ugly games..turnovers,
missed tackles, ect and usually to our division.
KG does his share of stupid plays like last week 1st and last
play both the same inside 20 and both INT...some coaches
get fired for that or punched in the face....if we lose
this week and Carolina next week...there will be noise...
especially if I drive all that way and you arent cooking

In 2010 and 2012, we missed the playoffs by one game....

It's not like this team has greatly underachieved.....it's just not a consistent team, that seems to get snake bitten with injuries, at inopportune times...

I hate losing, ever, at anything that goes for the teams I follow and when I see a loss I like to figure out whodunnit. It's from too many Encyclopedia Brown books and Mattel Football as a kid.

The fun in anything is competing and getting better at what you. I don't really like winning because that means the game is over. Losing makes me want to play again and since I love to compete, its great motivation. It also means that I'm playing against someone better, so I have a great chance to learn how to improve.

Took me a long time to get here, but very happy with it.

Joe Torre won 4 of 5 championships and was berated on a daily basis here, it was sickening.

...Bugs Meany and his Tigers?

He'll carry water for the Nosepicker until the end of time. Jeff Weaver forever!!

having two superbowls is extremely misleading. He did not hire the coach or the quarterback which are the two most important parts of the team.

I don't care who ran the draft when Eli was drafted. Eli is Accorsi's player not Reese'

I often wondered if you read the site! Now we know.

there are a few outliers, but this thread is a mix of a strawman, and a dash of appeal to authority. Best part about this, this thread was started by someone who lost his shit over David Wilson.

but I feel like once again you've whiffed on the context.

That's cool, though. We can just agree to disagree.

and miss out on how your OP reads. The general tone comes off as whiney.

Quote:

As an aside... Homersimpson : 12:13 pm For as brutal as BBI has been this week, threads like this keep me coming back. Some great discussion from posters who I wish posted more. Nice job, folks

And I don't know what Britt thinks about Wilson, but I'm very concerned that he is just not smart enough to pick up ball security, blocking, and following his blockers.

He's not a rookie any more. Why didn't he learn from last year's season opener? Instead he fumbles x 2 and probably costs us the game. Let him return kicks. He does that well.

Too often we assume we know what we are seeing when in fact we haven't the foggiest clue. Many times we see what the camera shows us in real time, but don't really understand what we saw. I think we often forget that the other team gets payed to make plays as well.

I'll give an example of last weeks game and the first interception. When you saw the play in real time it appeared as if Eli threw it right to Ware. Then, days later someone put up a time lapsed picture and it showed that Wilson was open and Ware made a hell of a play, grabbing it with one arm and pulling it in. I'm not absolving anyone on that play or another just stating that too often we think we know more then we do.

Too often we see a play go wrong and criticize the play call and rarely do we know why it went wrong. We don't know what the reason for the play call was, was it called in from the sideline or an audible, did everyone do what they were supposed to, etc... I also think we over value a lot of our players, but thats a whole other argument.

You mean after he fumbled once and then didn't fumble again for another 135 touches?

was that '07 was pretty legit. We went 10-6 and got in as a Wild Card. Totally reasonable. Got on a roll, won the whole thing. The fast start in '08 (which I still think was 90% ruined by Plax shooting himself and that we otherwise would have had a deep playoff run, at the very least) proved that the '07 team was no fluke.

To me, the '11 season was winning the lottery. Winning the NFC East at 9-7 had never been done before. 9-7 team winning the SB - never been done before. Off the top of my head I'm guessing that over the last 10 years 9-7 gives you a little bit less than a 50% chance of even getting into the playoffs. It also featured a 6 game awakening by the D, which played at a level that we hadn't seen since '09. And unlike our '07 SB wining team that was sandwiched by 3 years of playoffs, our '11 SB team has been sandwiched by 3 years of no playoffs. Highly unusual, if not unprecedented.

So I factor that all in - average W-L of 9-7 over the last 4 seasons (side question, is that what you should expect from a HoF HC/QB combo), one lottery jackpot, sprinkle in a blown 3 TD 4th quarter lead here, a 6 TO game there, a record setting (for the Giants) poor season for the D over there, and it makes me wonder if this is the right business model for sustained, future success.

Do you want to be going 9-7 every year when you have a franchise QB in the last third of his career? And what happens after that? Do I hate Coughlin as a HC? No. Do I wonder if, if this season is another playoff-less season, that it might be time to look in another direction? Yeah, I don't see that as being unreasonable.

you wasted your time today. David in LA doesn't get it, therefore the discussion wasn't worthy.

did you not just come onto a thread that had been discussed thoughtfully, and civily all day, and start bitching about the topic and threadstart? I bet you didn't even read the thread. It was a good discussion.

after Boley and Wilson.

Yeah, since Wilson got benched with a lot of publicity last year, learning ball security should have been priority one.

And now he's fumbled three times in 78 rushing attempts.

.

or a waste of time.

that doesn't mean I misread it or misunderstood it. Yeah, there has been some good contributions on here, but at the end of the day it's just as fickle on the business end as it is on the fan's side. Fans will find things to critique, and naturally find a whipping boy. You clearly mentioned that there's a large majority that thinks on the extreme end, but that's not based in any actual reality. Eli, TC, Reese, and Gilbride are pretty much untouchable around here, because fans know how important each one of them are to the success of the team. So where is this majority? Other than some choice posts you remember more than most...

There are times, however, when it seems as if Reese makes some glaring mistakes. This year, I think there was a huge one at linebacker, as Eric has noted in the game review. We went into this season without enough decent quality linebackers to make an entire starting unit, let alone to allow for substitutions or injuries. I don't think there is any rational reason that happened.

I have no criticisms in particular for the others on Britt's list. or Fewell. I think Gilbride and Fewell are both middle of the road. Gilbride runs a complex offense, and that may not always permit younger player to show their talent. It's nice when it works. Eli does so many things well that it balences out his mistakes, plus plus plus.

Fewell looks worse than that in part because of injuries to dbs, the collapse of DL play last year, and the ongoing lack of decent LBs. Many other teams have players on the back seven that are superior blitzers, who can help out the DL. I can't remember the last time we did, other than Pierce. (Kiwi doesn't count.)

"logic and reason sets in" - No it doesn't. Quite the opposite. Logic & reason dictates that reality should be looked at every once in awhile, if not always. In like, it is what it is, & that is that the NFL is set up to create parity. The folks who created a hard salary cap & free agency truly hope every single team goes 8-8 every single year so every single team has an equal shot at winning the SB. That SHOULD make every fan of every team happy, rather than be like fans of the Lions, Browns, Vikes, Jets, Eagles & a few other teams that may not win a SB in the next 30 years.

"we supposedly have a HOF QB in his prime, a HOF coach, and one of the smartest GMs in the league" - Guess what, so MIGHT (emphasis on MIGHT depending on the next few seasons) or do some other teams: Pats, Steelers, GB, 49ers, Ravens, Saints. The Giants have won more SBs in the last 6 years since Reese has been GM than all of them. The Pats, 1 of the best teams ever, haven't won any & the Giants beat them in the SB twice, tho some people seem to somehow forget or totally ignore that as an accomplishment. The Negative Nancy/Glass Is Always Empty/Chicken Little posters who bitch & moan constantly & never seem happy no matter what the Giants do SHOULD BE happier that the Giants have done better than comparable teams, but they're not.

"Shouldn't we be consistently better over the regular season than "a notch above the average"?" - If you want to discount/ignore widespread or clustered injuries or those to very key players such as Nicks, Tuck, JPP,a few bounces this way or that, other teams improving (like the Skins last year), then yes, they should be. Otherwise, shit happens to every team. The people who say injuries aren't an excuse are out of their minds IMO. Also, the Giants have had a much better than average record & haven't had a losing season since 2004. I'm pretty sure only 2 other teams can say that: Steelers & Pats. Their fans can be screaming from the top of rooftops that they should've won more SBs in that time frame.

Is that our offensive scheme is too difficult for rookie skill players to pick up. - In the NFL, rookies on every team have a hard time picking up the playbook & adjusting to bigger, faster, more experienced players. Period. The Giants playbook may be be somewhat more difficult but I doubt it makes much of a difference. According to players' interviews, they think the offensive scheme gives them a decided advantage to beat any kind of D that's run & that they like the trust that's placed upon them. There might be some trade-off in the added difficulty for rookies, but given that despite all sorts of OL injuries & crappy players, it still has been the best O in Giants history over numerous seasons & they've won 2 SBs. I'll take that tradeoff.

"Cowboy fans..Constantly reminding everyone that they have 5 rings..Even thought it's been almost 20 years, they still make the argument. So the question is, how long can the " we got a ring" statement end any debate?" - Well, the Giants have won 2 in 6 years & 4 altogether. It'll be a few seasons w/out winning that Giants fans can still make that argument w/out sounding like an ass about it. It was easier to win multiple SBs back then as well minus a hard cap & free agency. Giants fans can make that argument a little longer given how much harder it is to repeat now.

"I don't like what the league has become." - Tough. Get over it & move on because it's not going to get any better. Or you can continue to bitch & moan about it & be unhappy all the time. If you like being unhappy all the time, good for you, but only similarly-minded people will be happy reading about it or being around you.

"the depth of this team has been weak" - The depth of every team has been weak. Thank the hard cap, free agency & having to pay a 2-time SB MVP QB every year til he retires. You can substitute great depth for that or more stars at other positions of less importance (such as many BBI favorite, LBs) if you like, but I'll take the highly paid star QB every time. Why? Some perspective.

NFL MVP since 1957:
36 QB
18 RB
1 LB (LT in 1986)
1 DT (Alan Page in 1971)
1 PK (believe it or not, Mark Moseley in 1982).

SB MVPs:
26 QBs
7 RB
4 WR
2 LBs
2 DE
2 S
1 CB
1 DT
1 KOR.

"it's fair to question why this team is only 18-15 in the regular season since 2011, when they've proven that their ceiling as a team is as high as anyone's." - It definitely is perfectly fair to question that, although I find it hard to even consider wondering about it in 2011 when the team won the SB b/c someone's priorities are more than a little fucked up. Nevertheless, I think the answer to that is simply injuries & lack of comparable depth at the positions & players injured the most. In 2011: SIX CBs TT (missed whole year), Prince (7 games), Coe, Johnson, Witherspoon, Tryon; Tuck (played 12 games), Goff (missed whole year), Hixon (2 games), AB (12 games), MM (12 games), Osi (9 games), Austin.

Last year: Nicks (HUGE), AB, A Brown, Baas, Rivers, Hosley, Canty, Williams, KP, Austin, Kuhn. JPP, Webster & Tuck didn't miss games but played hurt all year. A couple of winnable close games in which a bounce or FG attempt in the right or wrong direction (see the perfect bounce to RG3 on a fumble & missed 30 yard FG in the Skins loss last year) makes a huge difference in the record in a small sample size.

"Oh we have won 2 of the last 13 Super Bowls!" - Some perspective is in order, again. ONE team, the Pats, has won more than that & the Giants beat them twice. Only the Ravens & Steelers have won 2. So the Giants have done better than 28 other teams in 13 years, but that's still cause for a bunch of BBIers who expect them to win the SB every year to bitch & moan incessantly.

"[Wilson is] just not smart enough to pick up ball security, blocking, and following his blockers." You know he's not smart enough how exactly? Have you ever met him? Spoken to him? Talked about this with his coaches & the GM, who definitely have an infinitely better clue than you do about his intelligence? If & when he does pick up ball security, blocking, and following his blockers, what could possibly be the reason if he's just so fucking stupid? Brain cell implants that suddenly made him smarter? Or maybe you're just too stupid to realize that some players take longer to develop those skills than others.

"He's not a rookie any more. Why didn't he learn from last year's season opener?" - He had 1 fumble the rest of last year. Maybe he did learn & just forgot, or better yet, maybe in the heat of the moment he was somewhat careless & shit happens even to the best players no matter how much they've learned. Eli, as of 5 days ago, still makes idiotic throws 10 years into his career. Why didn't he learn from the last TEN years of making the same idiotic throws? Players aren't perfectly calibrated to be perfect all the time like machines, which also still fuck up occasionally.

It gets brought up multiple times on this thread and on BBI in general that "we have the most knowledgable fan base in football."

Madden said this once about Giants fans on Monday night football (I think- it may have been a late game when he was with Summerall.) If you read BBI regularly, you could easily buy into this idea.

The problem is, BBI is extremely insular and attracts folks that have an above average understanding of the game (if you don't, you get killed for posting stupid shit.)

I've met plenty of Giants fans over the years that couldn't even name the starting O-line, much less try to explain an option route.

And of course we are biased in our views of other fan bases.

I think the "knowledgable Giants fan base" is essentially a myth. BBI is very knowledgable overall- but this is just a small cross section of Giants fans, and is absolutely self selecting.

Sometimes I'd like to punch Madden in the mouth for saying Giants fans are the most knowledgable in sports.

actually our record was 13-7 for 2011, not 9-7.. Matters not that NO ONE has won the SB with a 9-7 record going in, anymore than it mattered that a division winner 7-9 Seattle team knocked off the defnding SB champion Saints in the playoffs..

Records NO LONGER MATTER other than to the purist in today's sports. They stopped mattering when Wild Cards were introduced into sports or when "99%" of NBA and NHL teams make the playoffs..

In 2007 and 2011 we PROVED to be the BEST team in football, by beating the best when it mattered..

Period.

Your record is what gets you into the playoffs and determines seeding so, yeah, records do still kinda matter.

Most of us are strong supporters of "Eli/Coughlin/Gilbride/Reese/etc". But to treat any of them as though they are immune from criticism would be just stupid.

Quote:

The wording of the threadstart is a play off of... Britt in VA : 9/13/2013 9:38 am some current threads on the board. "When does Reese answer" and "Eli haters".

Quote:

Just to clarify again, "hater" is not my word... Britt in VA : 9/13/2013 12:24 pm The thread title is just a play off a couple of current Corner Forum threads.

That's how the NFC East played out that year. The same way our 10-6 in 1988 and in 2010 played out the way it did..Parity will do that more often than not as you know..

Years ago, before FA, when teams had their squads together for many years, the power teams, the very good teams usually emerged year in and year out..With parity and with some obvious exceptions, many times it's HOW you close the season that has determined who the last team standing was..Pre-FA(not really counting Plan B) teams that were consistently strong throughout the season generally did not necessarily have or need a strong finish to win it all. The Bye mattered a lot then because homefield advantage was huge then. Nowadays, not nearly as much imo..

Ideally you want to have the 10-12 wins to almost ensure entry into the playoffs, but again due to parity, more and more teams are getting in with 9 wins, imo..

You'll remember this I'm sure, but back in pre-FA days, didn't it seem that as a rule, a team getting that bye, more often than not was able to re-group enough to re-assert their (mostly) year-long dominance?

Today, if you've had a great regular season record and enter the tourney either playing meh to lousy ball or are simply coasting, it seems as though more and more of those teams are getting upset after their byes..

in re-reading my post you responded to, I realize I should have said very good to excellent records don't matter all that much in today's NFL.

parlaying a "once in every four years" playoff appearance into a SB run is anything that resembles a sustainable, successful model for the future.

It would be great to win a half million dollars. Who wouldn't be elated by that? But it would be a pretty bad idea to count on winning the lottery every 4 or 5 years to be able to provide for yourself.

And if people are going to insist that Eli and TC are both Hall of Famers, Then we absolutely should be doing better than we have been.

as Eli's peer, Eli's the one that's been unlucky enough to play in the toughest division.

Brady plays in a 1-team division, and always makes the postseason.

Peyton played in a 1-team divison for the Colts, and now for the Broncos, and always makes the postseason.

Ben only really ever had to compete with the Ravens for most of his career, and always makes the postseason.

Philip Rivers, when he was still good, played in a junk division.

Each one of those players was always the best quarterback on the best team in their division, and it wasn't really close.

and certainly a factor to be considered

since you quoted me twice, it's fair to say that a lot of your post was directed at me.

While the Giants have been snakebitten at times with certain positions, the idea that the GIants are the only team that has injuries each season is absurd. Nearly every team suffers a number of injuries (aside from the 9ers last year). We just think that we have it worse because we pay more attention to every one of our players.

Winning the Super Bowl requires getting hot at the right time and a lot of good fortune. But you don't have the opportunity to get hot and make a SB run if you can't make the playoffs.

And yet there's still not a logical or rational rebuttal for why a team with a "HOF QB" "HOF Coach" and one of the top GMs in the league cant make the playoffs as frequently as the other top teams do. Not only that, but our "HOF QB" hasn't missed a single start since he became the starter.

We have had a leg up on every team in that regard. But we don't capitalize because our team has massive let downs more than other great teams.

And you are begging the question in assuming that the only thing that matters is SB wins. It's not the case for a lot of fans. There's more to watching the NFL than just winning the final game of the season.

There is an enjoyment in watching your team perform each week and there is enjoyment in the anticipation of your team performing well in the postseason.

And with the postseason being a lot of luck/health/fortune, the best way to evaluate a team is by how well they do over the big picture. And the big picture includes the regular seasons.

And when the Giants struggle to make the playoffs each season, and we have the knowledge how much good fortune is required to win the Super Bowl, it tempers the optimism and belief in future success.

Just because I would rather have two SB championships with missing the playoffs in other seasons, it doesn't mean that I can't be critical or think that the Giants aren't realizing their potential.

It's not as if the Giants have won 4 of the last 5 Super Bowls. They went to two and they won two, which happen to be the only two years in which they've won a playoff game during Eli/Coughlin's tenure.

With a team that we think is as strong and well-run as the Giants, I think that the Giants aren't living up to their potential in the seasons in which they didn't make the playoffs, let alone win anything in the playoffs.

The Patriots may only have 3 rings, but they have been to 5 Super Bowls under Brady/Bellichick and they made the playoffs every year except for the one where Brady was out for the entire season and they still went 10-6 and missed the playoffs on tiebreakers.

There is a lot of pride and value and pleasure in consistent winning year after year.

still would have made the playoffs if Giants beat the Eagles.

All three teams finished 10-6, Giants were odd team out.
Had Giants beaten Eagles, Giants would have been 11-5, GB 10-6 and Eagles 9-7.

2010 Packers were in like Flynn.

Peyton also left and then the Colts went from a playoff team to a team hard pressed to win a game.

Of course, our illustrious, current backup QB had something to do with that also.

I'm sure Eagles, Bills & Vikes fans are just thrilled shitless to have made the playoffs a bunch of years in a row but never won a SB. Guarantee every last 1 of those fans would have traded a few playoff-less years for just ONE championship. If the Yankees had never won a championship I wouldn't have been at all happy they made the playoffs something like 19 out of the last 20 years. Losing playoff games sucks even more than regular season games as far as I'm concerned & losers are in the same damn spot as every other team that doesn't win the SB.

Marino/Shula, Tarkenton/Grant, Kelly/Levy were HOF QB/coach combos that NEVER won a SB & Marino was in only 1, so the expectation that HOF QB/coach combos should win SEVERAL SBs or more than they've already won is completely nuts. There are 52 players & about a dozen more coaches on a team than a HOF QB & coach. Believe it or not, they do enter the equation of how successful a team is.

As far as injuries, no champion ever lost 6 CBs in a season or had their star WR shoot himself @ the end of one.

If you & a bunch of other fans want to seemingly never be satisfied w/ the Giants no matter how successful they are, have at it. If you & they would rather seemingly prefer to concentrate more on & bitch & moan endlessly about the years they don't win championships & those you think are responsible, have at it. I get over shit & move on. If you prefer not to, that's your prerogative. I'm just glad I don't have to have anything to do with you except for BBI & even that's wearing ridiculously thin.

That whole lottery analogy kinda went over your head, didn't it?

Dylan fan. You're right. No champion has had their star wide receiver shoot himself in the leg.

The Patriots have made the playoffs every year since 2001 except for the year Brady missed the entire season. They went to five Super Bowls and won three of them. How were they able to do this? Because they were a great franchise with a HOF coach, a HOF quarterback as well as many other pieces that made for a consistently successful team. That isn't new information. It's history.

But let's say that instead of going 3-2 in Super Bowls, the same model franchise only won 2 Super Bowls, never won a playoff game outside of those two Super Bowls, and missed the playoffs three years in a four year window of Brady's prime. So in this alternate, hypothetical reality, this Patriots dynasty instead had the resume that the Giants had. Patriots fans wouldn't be allowed to express disappointment for not living up to potential? Patriots fans wouldn't be allowed to think: "we have an amazing coach, quarterback, owner and franchise. We've beaten the best and won it all twice showing that we can be dominant. Why are we such busts in the other seasons? Couldn't we be achieving greatness? Couldn't we become a dynasty?"

I think you should stop rooting for the Giants. There's no point for you to be excited about them for at least another decade. They've already won two Super Bowls in this tenure, and so nothing else matters. They could lose every game for the next five years, and by your statements, it wouldn't matter because they won two Super Bowls and that's more than other franchises can say. In fact, you've set yourself up that you can't complain about a single play call, a single bit of execution, a single draft pick, a single pass, or missed tackle, or penalty. You're false dichotomy has made it impossible for you to levy any criticism against the team.

not you're

I guess it did, because I'm happy with my life w/ nowhere remotely near half a million bucks, I'd still be happy with it if the Giants had never won a SB & I'm sure I'd be way happier that I could live the rest of my life way more comfortably than I am now if I did win half a million bucks only once. My guess is that YOU wouldn't be happy unless you won it every 4 or 5 years.

I seem to be a tad more realistic than you & Paul & your ilk b/c I can see that there are other very talented teams in the NFL that have even better HOF QBs than Eli, as good if not better HOF coaches than TC & a whole bunch more players better than the rest of the Giants' players not named ELI Manning. You seem to think that the be-all & end-all of football success is a HOF QB & coach. I don't think it's even close to idiotic to think that 52 other players on the team might have something to do w/ a team's success or lack of it.

One last thing & I'm not even reading this thread any more b/c I've wasted enough time already: Aside from the undeniable FACT that Eli & TC are not actually in the HOF & there's at least somewhat of a chance they may never even be in the HOF, the Giants are not the only team that has a potential HOF QB & coach. Using your own so-called logic, that means those other teams have just as much as a chance of making the playoffs & winning the SB as the Giants. Considering only 6 teams in the NFC make the playoffs every year, there MAY be some potential HOF QB/coaches that don't make the playoffs & win the SB. The Giants could be one of those teams every year. As the saying goes, the other guys get paid as well.

was the Tuck rule with Brady. Clearly a fumble, they're eliminated from first SB participation and who knows, perhaps any momentum gained from that first SB win under Brady, is lost and there is no 3 out of 4..

Not to mention the SB missed opportunity for the Ravens gone with the Evans drop and the chip FG miss. Two unlikely events that would (most likely) never occur again in a similar time span..Another should have been missed SB opportunity for the Pats..

Point is, take what you have, make do with that opportunity..The Giants have. TWICE in recent past..I don't give a flying fu*k HOW they got there and neither do the players and coaches..TWICE we beat out 31 other teams to win it all, because at the end, at the right time, we beat the best to become the best..

I'd hve no problem finishing 8-8 or 9-7 as long as we got into the ONLY tourney that matters..

But if we can stop for a moment(never happen) and realize WHAT must go right (Key injuries healing up at the right time, breaks for and against, near misses and so on) in order to take home the hardware..We beat out 31 other teams the last two SBs..That's extraordinary in the FA/parity era..Extraordinary..

The Celtics won 11 out of 13 championships in the Bill Russell era, but HOW MANY teams were there in the league then?

The Canadiens won how many Stanley Cups when it was just a 6 team league?

How about MLB and many of the 27 World Series titles?

And when the Giants were going to the championship games from 1956-1963, how many teams did they have to pass? How about 6?

I will NEVER diminish(or I will try not to) a championship, but PERSPECTIVE is paramount if you want to fairly assess things..

32 team league and we were the only ones standing at the end..TWICE...WOW!

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I'm not exactly sure, but I think you just came up with the 21st century version of "Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on Third."

And for the record, I became a fan of the team in the 70s when they had been a doormat for more than a decade. So your theory that I expect a SB win every 4 or 5 years is just showing your ignorance.

why do you think it APPEARED as though teams who were on a playoff bye(no matter how they were playing heading into said bye) seemed to hold "homefield serve" better than they appear to do now?

I don't know the answer to that

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Again, an operating model that has you catching lightning in a bottle by going 9-7 and generating a SB win off a late season run every 4 years or so is not sustainable. The idea is to produce a record good enough to get you in and then go from there.

And my problem - and it's not like this is keeping me up at night, believe me - is that since 2009, I think we have had a roster that should have gotten us into the playoffs at least 4 of the 5 years (including this upcoming year, where the jury is obviously still out). I see a pattern of underachievement and as great as '11 was, I don't see us winning in that fashion again any time soon.

Now if your viewpoint is "We won 2 SBs in 5 seasons, anything we get in the next 10 is gravy" then that's fine. For me it's more about playing to your potential. If you're the Jaguars, you have to accept the fact that you suck and deal with it. But we're not in that boat.

I don't know the answer to that question either. Could be a short term trend. You would think that, as beat to Hell as teams are now at the end of the season, that the extra week of rest would help to recharge. But yeah, I agree that lately the break in momentum seems to be more of a hindrance than a halp.

But even considering only the last 10 years, the odds are still heavily stacked against a Wild Card (typically the teams with the worst W-L records and playing the most road games) winning a SB.