When do Eli/Coughlin/Gilbride/Reese/etc... haters answer?

I hope Homer and Paul don't mind me posting their responses to my question:

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Success Homersimpson : 9:22 am breeds a lot of stupidity in Fanbases of any pro team, IMO. We haven't seen a losing football season for 10 years. We've definitely had some disappointments along the way, but never finished worse than 8-8. It's pretty amazing. After the 2nd Super Bowl, media-types were saying that Coughlin and Eli would never be criticized again. We're 18 months removed from that championship, and there's most definitely a faction of the fanbase that would ship one or both out on the next boat without a second thought. That says a lot more about the fan than it does the player or coach. We're in the midst of the best run of Giants football I've ever seen. I try to enjoy it as much as I can. I think some fans just won't really ever enjoy it. That's on them. And it sucks that we have to deal with that type of fan. I mean, really...anyone trying to downplay what this team has done (particularly in the championship years) is just a sour person without a real solid grasp on reality.

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Britt PaulBlakeTSU : 9:30 am I think it's a trying to avoid pulling out your hair. We have what many call a HOF coach, a HOF quarterback in his prime, and one of the best GMs in the league. We have a QB who is unfazed no matter how big the moment, and we have players who have already proven they can win big games in a multitude of ways. So, as a fan, how do you reconcile all of that with the hit-or-miss results that the Giants have? And I mean that in terms of how often they play down to their competition, miss the playoffs, or have paltry first round playoff performances. Teams with this setup should be considered an elite team year in and year out, the way the teams with the other great QB and/or great coaches do-- like the Packers, Saints, Patriots and Colts/Broncos have been. I, and many concerned GIants fans, are very grateful and ecstatic over the two Giants championships. They were magical runs. But logic and reason sets in and it does start to look more like good fortune and stars aligning than design when the teams hasn't shown the ability to repeat their success over the larger sample sizes of regular seasons year in and year out.

It goes across all sports.

we hold them to a high standard. When they have reached the heights that we've reached, we want that consistently and if it's less than that, I personally know I can be critical. But I don't think of myself as a hater, and I don't think that someone who complains is always a hater...

These handles seem to suggest its not just a NY thing

are the "haters"?

some current threads on the board.

"When does Reese answer" and "Eli haters".

like fungus

If you haven't noticed this behavior then it is what it is, guess we can just agree to disagree.

Absolutely.

From the SNL/Belushi stuff, it was pretty clear that while a ton of BBIers never saw Belushi, those were pretty lean Giants years. So it stands to reason that, like in life in general ... when you haven't really experienced "hard times," you can get a little jaded by the last few years.

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I have a lot of friends who a fans of other NFL teams and they are just as fickle. My buddies from college are Eagles fans and they were constantly killing McNabb and Reid during the height of the run. Redskins fans are swing high and low week to week more than any fanbase I know. They are not the most informed group of people in my experience. I think all in all the Giants fans are pretty reasonable. Every fanbase has idiots and I would be the people looking to ship out Eli and Coughlin are younger and little bit spoiled.

!

We are always competitive year in and year out save for some total stinkers(happens to every team)..

We have one of the best HCs in football and one of the best GMs in football..

We have the best clutch QB in football, capable at times of carrying an underperforming team on its back..

Why would I complain? Because at times we totally suck? Because we miss the playoffs at times?(Keep lumping in our 10-6 finish in 2010 in the "we've missed the playoffs in 3 of 4 years." Yea, you're technically correct. Clap! Clap!)

We are one of the few teams that most likely will start out 0-2 and still probably win the division(I don't care WHAT our record is, just get in!)..

As long as this regime is here and Eli is here, WTF should I complain about given the bottom line body of work?..

is that some people think that a different opinion makes them an "out of the box" thinker.

Another part of it is a reaction to people who are too "rah-rah". And let's face it, a lot of people react to the negative guys, hence this thread and a lot of the posts I make.

Another part of it is that some people have little understanding of what else goes on with the other teamsin the league, so they look at the Giants is a vacuum.

Frankly, most of it is pretty innocuous unless the person being negative truly thinks they have some revolutionary idea and are smarter than the coaches and players. Unfortunately, there are probably a few of those guys here.

Personally, I can't see why I'd waste a good portion of my time rooting for a team and then become a pissy cunt when they fail to entertain me properly, and that's really what a lot of it boils down to.

And people are jealous that other people are making a living in it

Thats why there particular disdain for guys in the media

We can simultaneously appreciate the Super Bowl wins while criticize them for their failures.

As a fan, Super Bowls trump all. Always will. 20 years from now I'll think of the 2 (and hopefully more) SB wins from this era, not years like last year or even 2010. With that said, the people constantly posting 'TWO SUPER BOWLS' in any discussion about our management, coaches, and QB dilutes football discussions. Recognizing you'd take our record in the past decade over any other teams doesn't mean we can't point out their failings.

you can criticize people-I've criticized TC for being too loyal to the detriment of the team, ala David Diehl-but some definitely take it up a notch & want to send them all packing.

And if you want to criticize Gilbride's playcalling, fine. You're a fan. I don't always love it either, but he has been the OC for a pretty successful offense.

Can someone be critical of bad moves or plays without being labeled a hater?

I like Reese, I like Coughlin and I like Eli, but none of the three are infallible.

What is so bad about praising the positive and criticizing the negative?

Extremes are almost never good, but I don't see why a healthy balance is a bad thing and people exhibiting such behavior need to be labeled.

I also think the extremism is limited to a small group.

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With that said, the people constantly posting 'TWO SUPER BOWLS' in any discussion about our management, coaches, and QB dilutes football discussions. Recognizing you'd take our record in the past decade over any other teams doesn't mean we can't point out their failings.

I'd take our last 6 years over any other team in the league. That doesn't mean we haven't fucking sucked and blown opportunities at times in the off-Super Bowl years and it doesn't mean I can't be pissed off about it.

Also, I love Eli, but two rings is not the answer to an Eli/Peyton debate. Get over it, BBI.

And the true number of 'haters' is vastly overrated - there are only a handful that come to mind on this board.

There are more strawmen about them than actually exist.

psychotic, but he's right.

Hater.

Ask the same question after a win and you get different answers. What we're dealing with here is human nature.

You did it right after a he fumbled twice in a loss. Like I said, human nature.

:)

but unlike the people in the threadstart, Wilson has yet to EARN the benefit of the doubt.

where are the people are "tearing down" Eli, Coughlin, Gilbride, and Reese "at every turn"? It should be pretty easy to name some names and provide tons of examples.

It would be useful to further the discussion if we could point out some of the numerous posts where Eli Manning is called a bad QB. Or maybe where people are calling for Coughlin or Reese to be fired "at every turn".

Once we have those posts and can review them, I think we'll be able to dig in and start answering some of these questions about the Giants fan base.

I am going to ask you this question, and its not to start a fight, I am just curious of your opinion.

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I think one part of it... FatMan in Charlotte : 9:46 am is that some people think that a different opinion makes them an "out of the box" thinker. Another part of it is a reaction to people who are too "rah-rah". And let's face it, a lot of people react to the negative guys, hence this thread and a lot of the posts I make. Another part of it is that some people have little understanding of what else goes on with the other teamsin the league, so they look at the Giants is a vacuum. Frankly, most of it is pretty innocuous unless the person being negative truly thinks they have some revolutionary idea and are smarter than the coaches and players. Unfortunately, there are probably a few of those guys here. Personally, I can't see why I'd waste a good portion of my time rooting for a team and then become a pissy cunt when they fail to entertain me properly, and that's really what a lot of it boils down to.

Have we reached our potential with this era of the Giants? With Eli and TC, with some very good receivers, some good defensive players, etc. Should this era have accomplished "more".

My response: The 2 SBs in 6 years should shut a lot of people up. Those seasons are going to be forever engraved in our heads as just wild, unimaginable great years. Now the other 4 years, there was a lot of disappointment. Many of us would say 2008 was a blown opportunity because of what Plax did.

However the other three seasons, we were soooooooo close, yet outside looking in. Whether it had to with with an unlucky bounce, failure to convert a TD, blowing a game against Philly, or whatever - it just seems like every year we need to squeeze into the playoffs or barely just miss it. Thats where I think some fans gripe. We shouldnt have to worry about squeezing in year in and year out. There's talent enough to win 11-12 games, but we always do something to cost us games. Its pretty infuriating.

So I am just asking, have the Giants fulfilled their potential in the last 6 years?

I think game day and the day after is when you get the extremists coming to the fore. We're not talking anger at a play or player in a given moment, we all do that. It's the extreme proclamations made OVER and OVER during game day and the following day. THAT's what many of us dislike intensely..So, I think the perceptions here are skewed by those two days..

The rest of the week? Pretty much normalcy with differences of opinions which few really take issue with..

fans. They rooted for a team that had all-stars at every position and they came to expect nothing less than a champion.

I realize that not all the "haters" come from that group but I believe they contribute to it.

this on the Eli Haters thread that prompted this thread.

"and I understand
PaulBlakeTSU : 9:39 am
the common retort of how many rings the Giants have over the last handful of years and that fans of those teams would trade places with the Giants for the number of rings, but that is an overly-simplistic answer and ignores other rewards of being a fan.

There's something to be said about the excitement each season when you have the makings of a great team and you watch them perform very well all season. It gives a long-lasting enjoyment, and a pleasure from the realistic hope of winning it all.

If that didn't matter, then there would never be a purpose to watching the regular season."

IMO - we've exceeded our potential in terms of hardware, but have probably disappointed in terms of overall playoff appearances. That's the conundrum we face. People are expecting success because the 2 SB's, and probably rightfully so, but it is almost as if they don't want to hear anyone say "We've won TWO SB's HOORAY", but they often want to repeat "We've missed the playoffs 4 out of 6 years". You really can't have it both ways.

I see us as being realy consistent year after year, which is a notch above the average. Some of those years, we've snuck in the playoffs, got momentum, and won it all. Some of those years we've narrowly missed making the playoffs and sit home in January. The only time we seemed dominant was in 2008, but we saw what happened with Plax and the collapse.

Look, most of my frustration isn't with criticism - it is with eiher unfounded criticism o reactionary criticism. As relatively ignorant fans, we should be more inclined to enjoy success anyway because we are simply along for the ride. To criticize knwledgeably, people have to have some football acumen to do this successfully. You really don't need that to simply cheer along, but if you lack that and then make a rant about play-calling, coaching, or specific players, it will be really easy to pick apart and categorize as whining.

of patience and vision is all it is. We over-react tpo wins and losses. If we win Sunday, Superbowl will get tossed around. If we lose Sunday, Drafting Clowney #1 overall will get tossed around. There is just a lack of understanding (in the moment) that a season consists of wins, losses, ups and downs.

There is also a lack of understanding of the parity in the NFL. Bad teams beat good teams all the time. Mediocre teams beat great teams all the time. 10-6 gets you in the playoffs 90% of the time, which means there are very few dominant teams, a smany teams are right around this mark.

I think it's the inconsistency that is most frustrating. Our coach is puzzling at times in his approach in that he can be stubborningly loyal when we all see the ineffectiveness of players such as Diehl. Or appear to lack creativity in strategy (i.e. put the ball in Eli's hand instead of trying to force a balanced attack.) In this respective, I think some fans are frustrated because 1) they think they know more than the coaching staff in which their thinking would produce a better result and 2) the results are so mixed with this team. We see the highs of starting 6-2 every year (with exception of a 7-1 and 5-3 start), yet the consistently mediocre second halfs year after year.

Personally, looking at the total body of work, I am more than pleased with the Eli/Coughlin/Reese era. I'm still on the fence with Kildrive, but again he is just as responsible for the success as anyone:) Every year we are in contention for the playoffs, so as a fan that's is what I want. I don't want to be apart of a fanbase that by week 8 is looking ahead to the draft! And add to the fact that we are always competing for a playoff spot, we have managed to bring home 2 Lombardis and did so in such dramatic fashion! Other fan bases call it fortunate, lucky, a fluke; yet none of the other teams could put together a run like our two runs. Let me cap for you spoiled fans on here:
07 - went on the road to win all NFC playoff games to include knocking off the #1 seed Cowboys and #2 Brett Favre-led Packers in one of if not the toughest atmospheres to win a game in January. Then topped it off with beaten quite possibly the greatest team ever assembled.
11 - defeating a talented ATL team at home, then going to the 15-1 Packers and then on to the tough, vaunted 49ers team led by a tough and rugged D. That game IMO was Eli's signature game....he took hit after hit, yet was on the money all game long! Then had the rematch against the Pats; whom most thought were out for revenge.

While this team is consistently inconsistent:), I love Big Blue. And for those of you that have already given up on 2013, I caution you against that. As long as we have #10 under center, never count this team out!!

I think so. Personally. I think that the one season where I would say that we definitely failed to meet expectations was the 2009. But if you told me just to look at the rosters over that 6 year period, I might have been happy with 1 Superbowl, actually.

But back to the point, I think its possible to be critical without it being hate. I think that it's a possible overreaction to by the people who are being sensitive about the team, or just disagree with someone's critique and then labels it as hate. I mean, I love the Giants, but I can be critical and have different criticisms as other people who are frustrated.

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I see us as being realy consistent year after year, which is a notch above the average.

I think the big problem is why are we consistently only a notch above average? We've shown the ability to run the gauntlet twice against the best teams in the league-- on the road.

More than that, again, we supposedly have a HOF QB in his prime, a HOF coach, and one of the smartest GMs in the league. This is our golden era. Shouldn't we be consistently better over the regular season than "a notch above the average"?

I think therein lies the frustration.

This is what really sums it up for me...

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Every year we are in contention for the playoffs, so as a fan that's is what I want. I don't want to be apart of a fanbase that by week 8 is looking ahead to the draft!

This is the business of entertainment. I believe we are fortunate to be in an era where we are entertained right up until the end every season.

I think more than anything, the rings, the failures, etc... That's the bottom line for me. I believe every single season that the Giants have a shot. A lot of fanbases, even with parity, don't have that luxury.

makes a good point.

Being a top 10 offense is very good, and Gilbride is a huge reason for that. But maybe we should be top 7? Top 5? Top 3?

I think it comes from the fans(fanatics) because we want our team to be successful and win all the time.

It's easy to point out the mistakes we see or to make suggestions when things aren't going right. It's human nature.

Giants fans are passionate and compared to the majority of the NFL fans base I feel that we're really in tune and understand the game better than most. Shit just look at how myopic Deadskin and Cowgirl fans are.

Hell I don't think people still realize how lucky we are to have Eli and that guy gets dumped on in here like it's nobody’s business.

As a whole I think we are really lucky to have the Reese, Coughlin and the rest of the coaches that we have. Do they make mistakes? Absolutely, but shit we all do every day it's just that they are under a huge microscope. I work in a job that has 13,000 auditors checking out shit you do every day and nothing gets by them. Can you imagine how many NYG fans there are and how we criticize and critic this team and managements every move. I know exactly how they feel.

league designed parity.. sustained dominance is not happening.

By my definition the Giants have had a better 2007-2012 than any other team in the league. There seems to be a group however that puts a higher emphasis on making the playoffs every year. I don't agree with that, because making the playoffs (particularly in the parity era) is in part a function of how the rest of the conference performs. The 2011 Giants made the playoffs despite being a worse team than the 2010 and 2012 teams.

We've seen seasons where this group made the playoffs and didn't win the Super Bowl. Are 2005, 2006, and 2008 gold star seasons compared to 2009, 2010, and 2012? Not to me. The Giants could have gone 0-16 in each of those seasons...if 2007 and 2011 still bring us Super Bowls, the era has been a huge success.

This era has been a huge unmitigated success. It had brought me more joy than any other in my 25+ years as a fan.

It's about the titles. Nothing else.

they can't just chalk things up to the fact the NFL is an extremely tough, competitive league. When things go wrong many fans have no other recourse but to find a scapegoat, whether warranted or not, and lash out at that individual. Thing is, I don't think people realize how much luck is involved in the pro sports paradigm. It's not exactly an exact science.

It's easier for a fan to just destroy the powers that be or the player rather than pull back and examine things with a wide lens.

The finest line separates winners from losers in today's NFL. A shit load of luck is involved but the consistent teams put themselves in position to succeed by doing things the right way. But that only takes a team so far. Fans look past that when a team goes 9-7. They want blood.

It's fucking hard to win more games than you lose every year.

Is that our offensive scheme is too difficult for rookie skill players to pick up in 1-2 years. Its not the old days. Ya can't waste the first year or two of a high draft simply because the playbook is complicated. Need to evolve. Randall Cobb for example was solid from game one in green bay. Gotta maximize value.

But I think we overestimate the talent on this team. We are in a division with 4 teams with pretty much the same makeup - teams that are consistently inconsistent game to game, but have been fairly consistent year after year.

I think that people judge our talent based on what we had with everyone in their prime and a lot of people underestimate the clustering of injuries that has happened.

I get the frustration, but even that is done in a vacuum. Even a team like SF is considerd to be superior, but they didn't even beat the Rams last year. Nearly everyone has those games that are head-scratchers, but it gets highlighted here because it is close to us.

Frankly, should we be better or have we overachieved? I really don't know, so me going on a rant about coaches with heads up their asses or players being lazy is just misdirected anger and/or frustration. When we are consistently in the 9-7 and 10-6 area, I think we've seen the results to expect. A few playoff appearances and a few misses. We just happened to win it all two of those times, which probably heightens expectations.

Look at the Steelers as a mirror team. They've made the playoffs regularly, often with records at or just slightly better than ours, but in some of those playoff years, they went out quick. Twice, they won it all. A level of consistency just slightly better than ours, but with no more rings to show. Trams like the Saints, Niner,s Packers or Falcons have had even worse results in terms of rings, but they are given all the press.

I struggle with being disappointed because we have the two rings, and frankly expecting more seems reasonable on one hand and wildly presumptive on the other.

In 2010, if the Giants don't collapse against the Eagles, Green Bay doesn't make the playoffs.

That's pretty crazy when you think about it, considering what played out afterwards.

You can pretty much do that with teams every year in the parity era.

along with a rabid fan base and you have today's sports landscape.

The media has a huge influence on the fan's mentality.

is it's a perfect example that no matter how good you are, in the NFL, your destiny isn't always in your own hands.

it is amazing the line between the Super Bowl and missing the playoffs. Go Terps and I have brought this up many times.

In 2007, we don't make the playoffs without getting lucky. In their Super Bowl win, the Packers don't get in if we beat the Eagles. In 2011, we don't get in for a variety of reasons, but front and center is Romo missing a wide-open WR. Last year, the Ravens were charmed. First, they don't get into teh playoffs if it ween't for a 4th down and 21 pickup vs. the Charegrs and he other was a blown coverage on a Hail Mary against the Broncos.

The line is razor thin between Champ and Chump.

is that the Giants compete more often than not. All this talk of no playoffs 3-4 seasons is just horse shit. Why not mention that the Giants have won 9 games or more in every season but two since 2005...why not mention the 2 super bowls since 2007. Nope...the'd rather focus on the negatives because negative sells.

There isn't one single fan base that wouldn't trade their 3 year stretch for ours except for the Packers and Ravens.