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When do Eli/Coughlin/Gilbride/Reese/etc... haters answer?

Britt in VA : 9/13/2013 9:33 am
Why do we, as fans, constantly berate those that make us great? Why do we focus so much negativity on the people that are probably most directly responsible for our success?

Are we spoiled? Fickle? Is it a New York thing? I know the Redskins fans are extreme homers who will prop up any crap player, coach, owner, or scout player they have unanimously, but we're like the polar opposite of that.

We tear down the people most responsible for our success at every turn. Why?

This isn't an accusatory question, I'm genuinely curious about what people think about this topic. Don't say it doesn't exist, it absolutely does.

Why can't we appreciate this team for what it is? I vividly remember being a Giants fan between 1990 and 2007. The older guys here can remember how awful the 70's were. It will happen again. I don't know why we can't appreciate what we have while it's here.
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BB56  
Jerry in DC : 9/13/2013 10:39 am : link
I agree. There are some very stupid posts on here, especially when emotions are running high. There are a few crazy people on here that consistently post crazy things. And there are often a few hit and run posters who show up after a game, start some dumb threads and tend to disappear. And there are some random troll-type posters who get a rise out of people.

I think that attempting to eradicate the lunatic fringe of message board population is kind of silly. Those people are going to pop up and you just kind of scan through their posts and either ignore them or write some kind of pithy response.

For the mass of BBI, I just don't see the volume of "haters" of Coughlin, Eli, and Reese. Gilbride does suffer some opposition, so I'd buy that to some extent. But look at the Reese thread. There's one moron who made the initial post and then probably 85% of the subsequent posts were defending Reese or at worst providing a reasoned critique of some of his moves.

And I'd also add that for every wild negative post on here, there is at least one wildly positive post, probably more.
and the fact  
djm : 9/13/2013 10:43 am : link
that every week I can sit down at a poker table with two dallas fans, a jets fan and a steelers fan and feel pretty good about what my team has accomplished is all I need.

You think we have it rough or that our team underachieves? Try being a fan of EVERY other team in the NFL.

Every fan base suffers. We suffer less.
Great point....  
damdevs : 9/13/2013 10:43 am : link
by Fatman as it pertains to injuries.

I think we fail to really reaize that usually the teams that stay the healthiest over the course of the year are the ones left standing at the end.
I would echo Pjcas 18's  
Reb8thVA : 9/13/2013 10:45 am : link
9:53 post. Why can't there be balance. Why can't you question the validity of some of Reese's philosophies or decisions?

There is a knee-jerk greek chorus on this board that sometimes substitutes "In Reese We Trust" for any critical thinkig.

Also, just because you challenge or question decisions doesn't mean you think people should be fired.

I think its perfectly legitimate to question the organization's devaluing of the LB position when your entire LB corps is composed of cast-offs and neverbeens most of who can't get to the QB or cover the TE.

I also think it is fair game not to have brought in a proven veteran RB before the start of the season.

Nevertheless, I think one of Reese's greatest strengths is his willingness to recognize a mistake and make a yeoman's effort to rectify the error. Remember the year when we had only three safeties and CC Brown ended up as a starter? Reese goes out the next year and immediately signs Antrell Rolle.
But even those people..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/13/2013 10:49 am : link
complaining about the LB's and RB's probably don't take into account the resources dedicated to other positions, what the effect is on the cap to sign veterans, and what the ramifications are for providing better depth or starting calibre players.

Simply put, most times we only have our own eyes to make assumptions and our ears that are tuned to ESPN or the NFL Network talking heads. There is so much information out there we don't know.

That's why I said it is easier to root for a team and be positive instead of criticizing and being negative. Rooting for a team takes very little knowledge, but if you are going to ctiticize, there is a completely different standard that should be expected in the argumentation.
Entirely agree with Reb's post.  
BrettNYG10 : 9/13/2013 10:50 am : link
.
Speaking of LBs,  
Big Blue '56 : 9/13/2013 10:54 am : link
can anyone answer WHO was available in the draft at LB that was worth a high pick, aside from perhaps Navarro Bowman(2nd rounder?)?

We picked a RB in the first round, an OL in the first round(in addition to picks in the high rounds through the years), we picked a CB in the first round..We are addressing our needs as best as we can and have the hardware to prove it..
LBs available since TC has been here, that is  
Big Blue '56 : 9/13/2013 10:55 am : link
.
To answer the LB  
dep026 : 9/13/2013 11:04 am : link
questions. The LBs take in the 2nd round last year are all either very good now or will be.

But we were in love with Wilson, so none of them were an option.
and ill be the first to admit  
djm : 9/13/2013 11:08 am : link
that I blast my teams after a tough stretch. We all get mad...I was miserable last sunday night but I usually cool off after a day or two and try to focus on the big picture.

many here would be better off keeping their anger to themselves after a tough game. We all get worked up but most don't post their anger in lights for all of BBI to see. It does make for some amusing reading, though.
I don't know why it mystifies some people  
Greg from LI : 9/13/2013 11:13 am : link
This is a strange team. I can't think of another team that's been as frankly uneven as the Giants in the past eight seasons, and that's in any era in any sport. Two championships when they weren't one of the better teams in the league through the course of the season, surrounded by seasons riddled with late-season collapses, humiliating routs and zero playoff wins. They are a hard team to put much faith in, that's for sure.

Terps - I know you're old enough to remember the Parcells Giants, so how you can say this is the greatest era of Giants football you've ever seen is baffling. That team was fearsome. This team, no one ever has any idea what the hell to expect.
the parcells teams  
djm : 9/13/2013 11:20 am : link
were definitely awesome. And they won they exact same amount of shit that this Coughlin team has won.

It's a different era and as much as this Coughlin team personifies this wacky era of NFL football, those Parcells teams left a few wins on the field as well.

The 80s Giants and this Giants era couldn't be more different but in the end their stories are very similar. Lest we forget this team isn't done yet.
Its not just a question of what LB was available.....  
Reb8thVA : 9/13/2013 11:21 am : link
For all its strengths, the current Giant's organization has been craptastic at evaluating LB talent, at least from a draft perspective. Look at the names,

Sintim-- tried to put a square peg in a round hole
Kehl- Traded up to pick him, Is he out of the league now?
Dillard-- undersized MLB
Tracy-- Another tweener
Goff- What might have been?

I think the best of the lot is Jaiquan Williams a 6th round pick.
I think the mantra we should all learn to adopt with this team?  
djm : 9/13/2013 11:21 am : link
THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
Britt  
JoefromPa : 9/13/2013 11:23 am : link
as as fan since 56 I too rmember very well the era of non-competitiveness you refer to

But that doesn't fly with younger fans. They want a play off team every year. Funnry thing is they have that mentality becasue of the success of the very people they degrade
Greg  
Go Terps : 9/13/2013 11:23 am : link
Go back and really look at those Parcells Giants and you'll see a bunch of maddening performances. 1988 alone had 4 or 5 spine crushing losses of epic stupidity. The Ram playoff loss was horrible...and one that on rewatching I can tell you does not happen with Eli at QB.

How many historic playoff wins have we had in this era? At Dallas, twice at Green Bay, at San Francisco, and two all time Super Bowl wins.

I agree the Parcells teams were better man to man...at least on defense anyway. But the sheer quality of some of the wins in this era has been unbelievable. We've got 5 or 6 wins since 2007 that are better than any win many franchises have had in their entire history.
And we're not done  
Go Terps : 9/13/2013 11:25 am : link
There is no 1991 around the corner about to smack us in the face.

If you haven't been enjoying these years I feel sorry for you, because there's a good chance it never gets better.
it would seem we have the infrastructure  
Enzo : 9/13/2013 11:29 am : link
in place(franchise QB, top coach, quality front office) to make deep playoff runs every year. It's ok to celebrate our successes while simultaneously wondering why the hell there hasn't been more of it.
.....  
Micko : 9/13/2013 11:31 am : link
I will say this. Who wants to be satisfied? I'm not a hater - but I root for this team every year and every year it's a new year. I love the Super Bowls. I love the success but if I stopped caring then why would I watch? I think it's best to appreciate what you have looking backwards but continue to have high expectations moving forward.
like I said  
djm : 9/13/2013 11:33 am : link
every time I sit down at the poker table I thank the football gods for where this team sits this very moment.

Think about where we sat before 2007. You walked into a room with Dallas, Niners, Skins, Steelers, Raiders, Pats and Packers fans and what could you say?

Today? We don't have to say a word. We're as good or better than all those fan bases and the ones that have more chips than us, Niners and Dallas, we can at least hang our hat on the Giants stepping on those two teams on their way to super bowl glory.

I couldn't ask for more from this Giants team.
I think you have to be able to draw a distinction  
Mike from Ohio : 9/13/2013 11:34 am : link
Between genuine criticism of certain decisions or plays made and people 'hating' Reese, Coughlin, Eli, etc.

I love Eli and having grown up watching Joe Pisarcik, Scott Brunner, et al QB this team, I appreciate how special a player he is. But criticizing him for a bad pass or bad game does not make anyone a 'hater'. Similarly, criticizing Coughlin for continuing to play Dielhl or Reese for not finding adequate LBs is not hating. Most of us universally respect and appreciate what these guys have built. That doesn't mean we need to blindly love every decision they make.

So is this thread pointed at the large group of fans who question certain plays/decisions, or the handful of idiots that think these guys should be run out of town? Not sure there is any argument on the latter.
It's just how some fans are  
nicky43 : 9/13/2013 11:35 am : link
This collection of over emotional, over sensitive fans exists in all sports for all teams and these are common traits for some humans. You'll never get rid of it and I admit that I often try to keep those fans in check.

The stupidity of those type of posts all fall under the fact that those making the posts couldn't possibly have anything near the knowlege or experience of those who make the decisions they are questioning or annoyingly complaining about. And that's a fact so if they want to sound stupid that's on them but I do understand that it is all part of human emotions driving these things and as much as I hate those posts and may go as far as to put them down, I don't hate those posters and I respect their solid fanship of our team.

What I don't respect are those that do it simply to annoy. In those cases the person with that agenda simply does not yet have a mature mind. I may not know who they are but they do.
The reason that fans criticize management and players  
Reese's Pieces : 9/13/2013 11:40 am : link
is because it's a fun part of being a fan. Why do so many people come to this site and spend hours debating whether the GM made a bad draft pick or the QB made a bad throw. Because they enjoy it.

And criticizing a couple of draft decisions does not mean that you hate Reese. I don't know where the widespread use of the word "hater" came from but it is used too much.
Lots  
Jerry in DC : 9/13/2013 11:42 am : link
of haters being exposed here.
When will posters stop telling  
chris r : 9/13/2013 11:44 am : link
How positive and appreciative they need to be as fans? Is your enjoyment of the Giants so tenuous its threatened by some negativity?
I grew up with the Parcells Giants  
DieHard : 9/13/2013 11:48 am : link
And they'll always be #1 in my heart, but as Terps said, I wouldn't hold them up like some 49er-like dynasty compared to the current version. A mediocre season post-Super Bowl (1987)? Blowing the playoffs in the final weeks of the season (1988)? A heart-stomping playoff performance (1989)? A bunch of games where one of our major units (offense under Parcells, defense under TC) struggled to be even mediocre? Sounds an awful lot like the present.

I get frustrated with the ups and downs as well, but that's today's NFL has been jiggered to be. Of the last 6 or 7 Super Bowl winners, how many were traditional powerhouses who led wire-to-wire? 2009 Saints, maybe? Packers, Giants, Ravens all were probably around #4 in their conference in terms of regular season performance and they all got hot at the right time. It's a battle of attrition more than ever, you just have to weather the storms and try to be ready if you get a chance.

It would be way easier on my heart if the Giants could be more consistent though. ;-)
Greg  
stretch234 : 9/13/2013 11:49 am : link
As good as those 80's teams were, 87 they were 6-6, 88 they shit the bed the last game to miss the playoffs, 89 they f'd up the playoff game.

The 90 team was really a different team by that point.

The 86 team was just a ridiculously talented team
This thread reminds me of  
GMANinDC : 9/13/2013 11:59 am : link
Cowboy fans..Constantly reminding everyone that they have 5 rings..Even thought it's been almost 20 years, they still make the argument..

So the question is, how long can the " we got a ring" statement end any debate?
Sure, the Parcells Giants had their share of frustrating losses  
Greg from LI : 9/13/2013 11:59 am : link
But they never did anything as pathetic as the close of 2009, getting knocked out of the playoffs, at home, by a shitty nothing-to-play-for Panthers team with their shitty backup QB torching the Giants to the tune of 41-9, followed by a 44-7 rout at the hands of the Vikings. Or 2010's humiliating back-to-back of the Eagles meltdown followed by the 45-17 thrashing in Green Bay. Or last season's 34-0/33-14 back to back debacles that cost them a playoff berth.

I always felt confident in the Giants back in the '80s. They didn't always win, but I knew they could compete. Far too often the recent Giants have looked like McNeese State playing Alabama.
It's part of the fun of being a fan  
sjh50 : 9/13/2013 12:00 pm : link
I, for one, truly appreciate what we have here. The consistency of a franchise QB, a stable coach, and a GM that doesn't always mortgage the future makes it fun to be a Giants fan now.

Being an armchair GM is fun and, in part, has lead to growth/popularity of this league. As we are the armchair variety, we get to criticize every action almost in a vacuum - unfortunately, for a real GM that isn't the case.

To address the LB debate, we have salary cap implications to consider always as well. With a franchise QB, taking a LB, a relatively low paying position in the NFL, within the 1st 2 rounds of a draft doesn't really make sense when you're trying to manage a cap. That being said, neither does taking a RB, but they believed they found a tremendous athlete in DW and hence pulled the trigger. I've got to assume if we found a similar LB we were as high on we would have done the same.

I'm happy with this roster construction currently and to be a Giants fan in general. This is despite the fact that I cringe at times watching this current corps linebacker play. In this salary cap age, all teams are going to have some holes - ours just happens to be at LB (and not, as others have mentioned, at S + RB).

I don't think Hater is the right word  
Semipro Lineman : 9/13/2013 12:03 pm : link
I personally find the-over-top stuff annoying from either direction. Be it the, "how can we lose - we're the most talented team in the league" or the, "none of our linebackers deserve to be on an NFL roster" side.

There is no doubt that people make legitimate arguements about the issues they are concerned about but many times it gets stretched out to ridiculous points.

I mean, yes someone can have problems with ball security but to state that the same person didn't make some progress in that area last year underminds the credibility of your arguement about how much it is a concern going forward.

Other guys are quick to acknowledge grey areas when discussing less than wonderous performances from players/coaches they support while dismissing the validity of similar issues that would lessen the blame assigned to those they don't like.

Nicky's point about maturity is a good one but it's not just maturity that lacking but self-awareness with some posters about the rationalization they use to justified their posts. Sometimes you got to remember you're not married to those words and it's okay to be wrong once in a while. I know I have been
oh, and Terps, give me a break with the "Eli wins the Flipper game"  
Greg from LI : 9/13/2013 12:05 pm : link
Yeah, Simms played like crap in that one. Very similar to how Eli played against the Eagles in 2008. Good QBs have bad playoff games sometimes.
I'm so filled with hate  
WideRight : 9/13/2013 12:05 pm : link
I'm going to go on an anonymous message board and say something really mean.
GMan  
Go Terps : 9/13/2013 12:06 pm : link
We are one year removed from the title. One year. If I'm still saying that in 10 years, fine.

If we're going through this angst, what are your thoughts on the Packers? Patriots? 49ers? We've won more recently than all of them (and beaten all three in their stadium in the process), yet the common perception seems to be that they are playing better football than we. That they have less reason to be agitated than we.

That is not true.
Greg  
Go Terps : 9/13/2013 12:11 pm : link
If BBI had been around in 1988 this board would have exploded. The 49er loss was as stupid as any we've had in this era. The Eagles losses were excruciating. Then to wrap it up was the season ending humiliation at the hands of the Jets that cost us not just a playoff spot but a division title and a home playoff game.

I loved those Parcells teams...shit they were my introduction into the sport and that connection never goes away. But they were subject to brutal, brutal losses against inferior teams too.
As an aside...  
Homersimpson : 9/13/2013 12:13 pm : link
For as brutal as BBI has been this week, threads like this keep me coming back. Some great discussion from posters who I wish posted more. Nice job, folks.

Carry on!
Greg  
stretch234 : 9/13/2013 12:15 pm : link
I will grant you this team has had more of those types of losses
GT  
GMANinDC : 9/13/2013 12:20 pm : link
That post wasn't a complaint. It was just a tongue in cheek statement..
Wow...you're a sly one  
Go Terps : 9/13/2013 12:24 pm : link
Sorry about that.
Just to clarify again, "hater" is not my word...  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2013 12:24 pm : link
The thread title is just a play off a couple of current Corner Forum threads.
Losing to the Niners sucked  
Greg from LI : 9/13/2013 12:25 pm : link
But it was the Niners. Getting blown out by Matt Moore at home with the playoffs on the line is several orders of magnitudes worse.

Anyway, it's tomato-tomahto. I don't like what the league has become, I don't like that the Giants have essentially turned into the 1981 Chargers, and because of those facts I'm not as in love with the Coughlin Giants as many others. Your milage may vary.




Homer - I wish you'd return to Yankee threads, although I completely understand why you don't.
I don't like it much either,  
Go Terps : 9/13/2013 12:28 pm : link
but if they didn't turn into that they wouldn't compete as well as they have.

2009 was horrible, agreed. But 2011 was far more awesome than 2009 was bad. Far, far more.
TOOOOOOOON !!!!!  
PEEJ : 9/13/2013 12:28 pm : link
Aarrrgghhhhh !!!
Greg, how we blew out Wahington near season's end  
Big Blue '56 : 9/13/2013 12:30 pm : link
in 2009 with the most cippled Defense I've ever seen fielded(not the worst ever, just the most crippled ever) is to this day a total puzzlement..We were the WORST D in the league by that time with key starters AND THEIR BACKUPS sitting out...An injury armageddon, imv
Appreciation and criticism aren't mutually exclusive  
Kyle : 9/13/2013 12:32 pm : link
.
And both have their extremes, that's what I'm exploring here.  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2013 12:32 pm : link
.
It is all George's fault  
SUS81 : 9/13/2013 12:35 pm : link
Alright not really. I have been wondering about this for a long time. Back when the Yankees would get knocked out of the playoffs thirty years ago, everyone in NY thought George was crazy for apologizing to NY when his playoff team didn't win it all. Then we got the FAN a few years later, and I swear the "nothing matters if you don't win it all" mentality spread. Obviously SB trophies are the most important goal and can be used to validate the giants or complain about them when we don't win. But NY wasn't always so critical. I really believe the act of having to come up with topics 24/7 on sports radio has changed the discussion and increased the complaining. And I think the more critical attitude has been learned here over time.
Eli/Coughlin/Reese/Mara...  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 9/13/2013 1:06 pm : link
Eli is considered a Top 5 QB on BBI
Coughlin is considered a Top 3 HC on BBI
Reese is considered a Top 5 GM on BBI
Mara is considered the best owner in the NFL on BBI

According to BBI, the New York Giants have the best combo of Owner/GM/HC/QB in the entire league. That's the backbone of a Franchise, to have the best group in the league means a lot.

The Giants are 18-15 since 2011

If all those guys are as good as BBI thinks, then why does this team constantly need Eli to save their ass in the 4th quarter just to stay above the .500 mark?

Eli: Great player but not consistent, goes through slumps that other top QBs don't
Coughlin: Great coach but he's an offensive coach first and our defensive inconsistencies have hurt a ton in recent years
Reese: He's done a great job acquiring top talent, but the depth of this team has been weak and that's hurt late in the season when we usually play poorly

This team has enough top end talent to threaten any team in the league if they are playing well, especially Eli and the DL. But I think it's fair to question why this team is only 18-15 in the regular season since 2011, when they've proven that their ceiling as a team is as high as anyone's.
I agree that there are a lot of balanced posters on BBI...  
Britt in VA : 9/13/2013 1:17 pm : link
I think there are people that can support the team without being a homer, and critical of the team without being a hater.

As I mentioned above, I'm more exploring the extremes, and there are a large majority of them out there, and here.

One could probably say, and has been said in a roundabout way, "why don't you get on the people that are pro Giant no matter what, what about them?"

Well, quite frankly, if I asked somebody "why do you always think the Giants are going to be awesome?"... The answer would probably be boring. "I grew up rooting for them, I love them, so I choose to think the best". Or... "They're my team, why wouldn't I love them?" Pretty boring answers, although hard to argue with, really.

But it's the really negative people that I find intersting. The people that really get on "insert name here"... They just can't get past any negatives and harp on them, beat them to death, to the point where they move into so called "hater" territory.

Those are the people I find interesting, because they are a paradox. They hate people on teams that they love and want to be successful. It's quite fascinating, really.
Excellent thread  
Spyder : 9/13/2013 1:21 pm : link
with some great comments, great job all.

Quote:
dep said: We shouldnt have to worry about squeezing in year in and year out. There's talent enough to win 11-12 games, but we always do something to cost us games. Its pretty infuriating.

So I am just asking, have the Giants fulfilled their potential in the last 6 years?


Well said, I agree with the idea that after two SB victories, especially the one in 2007, it seems we should not have to worry about squeezing in every year.

But I will admit to being spoiled by those teams. I will also admit that the Parcells defenses spoiled me, I got so used to watching those guys and all their 3 and outs, that the Fewell bend-don't-break style is just so frustrating to watch.

I keep thinking with our power on offense, all we need is just an average defense and we should win 10-12 every year.

But in the end, it's the injuries, always the injuries, and it just seems like we are snakebit more then most teams with our injuries. (Except for #10 of course, knock on wood.)

I know that is probably just myopic on my part, other teams lose guys where they are thin, just like the Giants always seem to do...don't they?
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