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The Heart of the Giants Problem...

M.S. : 9/18/2013 11:32 am
...so much has been written about our shit line backers and our do-nothing defensive ends, and our offensive line that can't run block and our #1 running back who can neither hold onto the ball nor pass block very well.

Fair enough!

But the Number One reason why this team finds itself in a hole is because our 2-time Super Bowl QB -- in his tenth season -- is throwing bad passes and way, way too many interceptions. IMO, the 2013 Season comes down to this: Either Eli Manning pulls his game together or we're looking at a Top 5 Draft Choice in 2014... maybe higher.

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That is why when they strip it down and go no huddle or up-tempo  
NY-Fan : 9/18/2013 12:06 pm : link
This teams moves the ball and looks different. They play with more energy and do not have to think as much. Also when they just pin their ears back and come they have more success on defense. There is a big problem though with the development of players and draft picks lately. Just to many misses to keep this team competitive like it should.
wrong  
Victor in CT : 9/18/2013 12:17 pm : link
.
There's a reason they're  
rebel yell : 9/18/2013 12:19 pm : link
called a team. To say someone is "the heart of the problem" and to blame them for two losses is short-sighted and inaccurate. It's a number of issues, all of which have culminated in two losses. Not the end of the world and IMO fixable because we've faced this predicament before and we've fixed them before....as a TEAM!
Oops misread this  
bignygfan : 9/18/2013 12:20 pm : link
Thought it said

The Heart IS the Giants Problem
It's the OL, without a doubt....  
Doomster : 9/18/2013 12:36 pm : link
Hanging onto Diehl, not realizing Snee was on a steady slide downward, the mistake of signing Baas, expecting high round draft choices to be the solution to your OL woes...

What good is having a very good qb(not elite), a good trio of receivers, a RB that can take it to the house, if you don't have the time to pass and you can't consistently open holes in the running game?

It makes you one dimensional....it makes defenses dare you to run by playing 7 back there....there are many plays and schemes that you can't run without a good OL......and because of this OL, we can't take advantage of our weapons....we've gone years without addressing this problem, and now it's biting us in the ass..
I think there are more than a few BBIers...  
M.S. : 9/18/2013 12:52 pm : link
...who see the great passes Eli has made this season -- not to mention his gaudy passing yardage. But when the team is 0-2 and your star QB has made ill-advised throws, badly thrown passes and a huge number of INTs... well, all of the good things Eli has done so far don't count for very much. Indeed, they don't count at all.

Sure it's a team game, and Eli doesn't run block nor rush the passer, nor run down on punt returns... but the game of football depends first and foremost on the play of the QB. And he has been very bad so far after two games. Eli's QB Rating is 75.9 (25th in the NFL.) His rating is lower than Jake Locker's, Cam Newton's, Chad Henne's, Ryan Tannehill's, and EJ Manuel's.

That's ugly.

A turn around for the Giants -- if there is going to be one in 2013 -- starts with Eli Manning. He needs to cut down on both his physical and mental mistakes.
Doomster...  
M.S. : 9/18/2013 12:54 pm : link
...Eli's INTs are not the result of too little time in the pocket.
Why do people blame Diehl for the  
Gman11 : 9/18/2013 1:06 pm : link
offensive line struggles when he hasn't played?

I realize that he's the big whipping boy of the OL, but saying he's the problem with the lack of blocking when he's been inactive is ridiculous.
There are a lot of things going wrong right now  
UberAlias : 9/18/2013 1:08 pm : link
But there is no doubt Eli has been a big part of the problem. I hate to say it, but you can go back to the second half of last season. There are other things that are wrong, but you pay your franchise QB the big bucks to keep you competative when there is adversity, and we have not been very competative in four of our last five games.
This offense is a classic case of high risk..  
PeterS : 9/18/2013 1:35 pm : link
high reward. If you want to continue to see down-the-field passing than prepare yourself for some INT's.
The heart of the Giant's problem...  
Blueballz : 9/18/2013 1:47 pm : link
they have no heart.
Only a matter of time...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/18/2013 2:16 pm : link
before some putz came up with this doozie:

Quote:
The problem with this team really is
NY-Fan : 11:47 am
It plays with very little passion, plays very slow,


Yep. We play flat and unispired, and the D is complacent, except when it was getting continual stops in the first two games only to watch the O give the opportunities away.

In the first half of both games, the D has played very well and was hitting hard. The O has been making mistakes, not executing well and wasting scoring chances. Not much of that seems to be because of a lack of passion or slowness.
no offense to the OP  
chris r : 9/18/2013 2:37 pm : link
but I don't think its a useful exercise to tried identify root causes or some such. There's plenty of problems all around, including Eli's poor decision making.
m.s.  
evaluator : 9/18/2013 3:00 pm : link
I really think you need to look at the int's in context. the 2 in dallas that bounced off of recievers,nicks running the wrong route,the bounce off heel...take those 4 away from his #'s,and his rating jumps to about 97/98...the lack of a running game also means the db's and lb's can just sit and wait in the defensive backfield for a throw that's even slightly off.in addition,the lack of a running game kills the play action fake,making it even tougher to go downfield.it's not all on eli....no offense.
to blame it on Eli is very ignorant  
SFGIANTLIFER : 9/18/2013 3:34 pm : link
that is simply wrong. Can't watch the games and think Eli is the problem.
Evaluator...  
M.S. : 9/18/2013 3:40 pm : link
...I'm reluctant to parse Eli's every INT, but I tend to disagree about that quasi-screen, outlet pass to Scott that went the other way for 6. That ball came in there too hot and too far away from Scott's body... And I say that regardless of where Scott was "supposed" to be standing. At 4 yards distance that was an atrocious throw by our QB.

But maybe not as atrocious as his end of half INT against Denver! That was a very big let down that should not happen with a 10-year vet. He forced something there that looked like a third string rookie trying to make the team in his last exhibition game.
Eli is the solution not the problem.  
old timer : 9/18/2013 3:43 pm : link
.
Old Timer...  
M.S. : 9/18/2013 3:57 pm : link
...of course he is-- going forward.
Saying the team has no heart is lunacy.  
CT Charlie : 9/18/2013 4:03 pm : link
The D stopped the Cowboys on some huge possessions near the end. And we held the Broncos to 10 points at the half and 17 points through 44 minutes, despite some horrendousl turnovers by the O. We'll be 5-3 at the break.
On offense, systemic woes tend to start with the offensive line.  
regulator : 9/18/2013 4:06 pm : link
Naturally, there have been some infuriating unforced errors committed by a lot of players on offense this year: Wilson, Eli, Myers, Nicks, Cruz, Randle among them. Overall, however, we are seeing consistently subpar play from our offensive line, especially our three interior players. This leads to an inability to run the ball and yields pressure in the face of our QB, which historically has forced him into bad decisions with the football.

If we find a way to fix our OL woes, we will get back on track as a football team. Really, that solution is nothing more than better performance from Boothe, Baas and Snee. We are not going to sign anyone off the street to come in here and play, nor did it appear that Brewer or Mosley are solutions at this time. If they cannot raise the level of their game, this is going to be a long season.

Beatty and Pugh, in my view, have performed adequately, though far from spectacularly. It's the G-C-G that have really hurt us in this 0-2 start.
regulator...  
M.S. : 9/18/2013 5:32 pm : link
...no doubt having a strong offensive line is hugely important. But for all its inadequacies in the first two games, I don't think you can put the blame on our offensive line for several of the amazingly bad passes and poor decisions by our 10-year vet QB.

The physical errors are one thing, but the poor decisions are really hard to justify after all these years. That's not an OL issue. That's an Eli issue. And right now we are seeing the BAD Eli. I'm waiting for the GOOD Eli to play for 60 minutes.

Every year with the exception of 2011 we have seen the good&bad Eli  
Rick in Dallas : 9/18/2013 5:50 pm : link
during the same season. In 2013 with the lack of any running game,Eli feels the pressure to make a plays in the passing game where it doesn't exist. He needs to stop forcing the ball and turning it over.No sin in throwing the ball away and lining up for the next play. I agree he needs to get his mental and physical game in synch MS.
watching the highlights  
alligatorpie : 9/18/2013 5:57 pm : link
when fewell is trying to get loud and rally the troops, it seems as if the D players wont even look towards him...
MS  
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/18/2013 6:13 pm : link
I could understand where you would get that impression based on how it appears Eli has performed, but Eli is the least of our concerns.


We run an offensive passing scheme that is built upon WR option routes. The WRs read the defense and finish their routes based on what they see. In order for this to work, you need great WRs who run great routes and make great reads. We have that.


however, you also need for the QB to make the exact same read. When it's on, it's extremely hard to defend because it is designed to find the holes in the defense.


however, it is very high-risk because if either the WR or QB sees something differently, then the QB is going to throw to a spot where the WR won't be near. It won't be an interception due to an imprecise throw, but an interception because the QB throws to an area where there are defensive players and not wide receivers. This then makes the INT returns worse.


Unfortunately, because the risk comes from the QB and WR seeing the exact same thing and not due to inaccuracy, there is the greater opportunity for risk (INT, incomplete) because there are more variables.


More than that, this type of exploitative offense is designed to dominate the deep-ball game. It's why Eli attempts more deep passes than anyone else in the league.


Another thing that hamstrings us is that our offensive line is not great in pass protection, thus forcing Eli to read what his WRs are doing earlier than he would like because deep plays take longer to develop.


Even worse is that our offensive line is embarrassing at run-blocking. We are meant to use the run to open up the passing game and to keep defensive players shallow. But since no team fears our rushing attack, defenses can keep extra men back.


The problems with our offense are sourced in the offensive line and with Gilbride's system which is ineffective with our personnel and in today's NFL where starting positions are more of a carousel than seemingly ever before
M.S.  
Marty866b : 9/18/2013 6:22 pm : link
I agree with you. The great quarterbacks elevate the play of the entire offense. No matter who Brady, P.Manning,or Rodgers have had to throw to, they have succeeded and won. I don't think any of the top qb's today EVER threw 7 in's in two games. Those screen passes against Dallas were ridiculously terrible. The int. before the first half against Denver was atrocious and killed any momentum going into halftime. Eli looked like a rookie throwing that pass. If Eli doesn't start playing better, we will definitely be picking in the top 10 in the draft.
PaulBlakeTSU...  
M.S. : 9/18/2013 6:45 pm : link
...your point is well taken, but it is a point I believe that can be taken too far. After all, it is Eli who is putting the ball up in the air... not the receivers. And some of Eli's throws have been either bad, simply wrong-headed or both. He is throwing balls that have an ugly risk/return ratio. Several of the outcomes are inexcusable for a 10-year vet.
Love Eli. No other QB in the  
section125 : 9/18/2013 6:52 pm : link
NFL would I take over Eli with 2 min and 80 yds to go and down by 4 pts., none.

However, As M.S. and others have said this is mainly on Eli. And I agree on the pass to Scott (to hard and inaccurate) and the end of the half pass against Denver. Just unacceptable for a QB of his experience and quality.
If Eli does not step up his game and cut out the INTs, the Giants are done.
Paul, agree.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/18/2013 6:57 pm : link
It's as simple as that. If the QB and WR are not on the same page in this system, more than likely an INT will happen, and an ugly one at that. It's not as simple as "Stop throwing INTs, Eli!!" The WR has to make the correct read, as well. It's the "beauty" of this system.
need more practice reps for basically all receivers  
alligatorpie : 9/18/2013 7:07 pm : link
including tes and rbs...problem is ...need tons of time on OL run blocking...
I blame the OL,  
Doomster : 9/18/2013 10:05 pm : link
and Eli is next in line to blame....

As I have stated before, one of my pet peeves of Eli is first down int's....3 of the 7 int's came on first down.....

As everyone knows, there is the Jekyll/Hyde Eli.....you would think after 10 seasons, the thought process on when to throw and not to throw should be ingrained.....

The pass before the half vs Denver, was a rookie mistake, made by a veteran......it was first down, Nicks was covered....we were in fg range....we had timeouts.....where was the short pass option? Eli stared him down, he was covered, and he still threw it up for grabs....throw it away....2nd down.....go for the td if it is open, or hit a short pass to make the fg attempt easier...

Another of my pet peeves with Eli is the short pass.....for some reason, which is hard to understand, he is not accurate with this pass......the receiver is not far away, yet the pass is hi/lo/has too much mustard/receiver has to change his route to catch it.....

I Joking set my third pet peeve as Eli can't slide....

But my fourth pet peeve has arisen again......can you believe he threw another left handed pass downfield?

Time to get it together Eli....
Eli has been off target this year...BUT  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 9/18/2013 10:26 pm : link
if you notice, our WR's are rarely wide open. It seems that the DB's know the play. They are also often breaking on the ball before our WRs do.

I am really not happy with the routes our WRs are running. IMO, they are rounding off their routes and also seem to be running them at practice speed. Barely any separation.
M.S.....  
damdevs : 9/18/2013 11:04 pm : link
Yes Eli needs to play better, but so does the whole damn team, defense included.

To solely blame Eli is comical at best. That just tells me you really don't have a good understanding of the Giants and what they do particularly on offense.

You probably could list a dozen or more contributing factor for the 0-2 start and Yes Eli would be a part of that.

Just to give you an example...Eli's pick at the end of the half.

I'm sure you blame Eli for that one just like the other 6 that he has also thrown.

To me that's on Nicks. Nicks had an option on that route to run a post(which he did) or a flag route(where Eli threw the ball). I've seen many say Eli should've thrown the ball away. I've got no problem with Eli giving Nicks a chance to make a play on the ball. Hell what QB doesn't trust a Wr like Nicks?

What most fail to realize is that ball is long gone out of Eli's hands PRIOR to Nicks making his cut to the post. This is a product of the offensive system which is a bigger issue in my book.

Do you realize why Eli threw the ball to the flag? Maybe it was because Eli saw the safety crashing hard from this inside to help on the coverage. Do you think Nicks was suppose to run the option route towards more coverage? Nicks F'd his one up big time!

So before we throw Eli under the bus for this 0-2 start I think we need to look at the whole picture. There is much blame to go around, but hopefully this team gets their act together and turns this around. Season is still early with a lot yet to be decided.
unbelievably predictable  
Dylan fan : 9/18/2013 11:08 pm : link
The Giants' 73 yards rushing is way beyond pathetic for ONE game, no less TWO, the Giants have HALF the rushing yards of all but 7 other teams, & are 124 yards below the NFL avg. over 2 games, but Eli is the problem.
oops  
Dylan fan : 9/18/2013 11:12 pm : link
That was supposed to be LESS than half. To put things in perspective, the fucking Raiders have 5.4 times more rushing yards than the Giants.
damdevs...  
M.S. : 9/19/2013 5:38 am : link
...I don't think anyone on BBI -- and surely not I -- believe Eli is the sole reason for the team's 0-2 start. I started this thread by recognizing several problem areas, and I put Eli first in line.

You provide a very insightful description of that Denver INT before the half, but there is no getting around that Eli threw a high risk ball there at a critical juncture of the game. There's a very good reason why the INT stat is listed under the QB's name, and not the WR's. It is the former who decides when and where to launch the ball, not the receiver.

Eli has been a lousy on-field manager of the game so far. He is simply throwing passes that are inexcusable for a 2-time Super Bowl MVP champion playing in his 10th season.

Inexcusable.
If you want Eli Manning to be Bob Griese...  
Big Blue Blogger : 9/19/2013 6:55 am : link
...just give him the 2008 supporting cast. We already know he can be that guy, because he was that guy when the situation called for it.
in both games they just imploded  
giantranger : 9/19/2013 7:14 am : link
shot themselves in the foot. The running game is the culprit for that happening. They have become one dimensional. Even moderate success running the ball in either game changes the outcome dramatically. Fix this problem or lose all season.
ELI...  
x meadowlander : 9/19/2013 7:32 am : link
I donít know if itís right to BLAME Eli, but MY expectation Ė and I imagine the expectation of everyone here, is that he is the master of the comeback. When down by a score or 2 late in a game, pass blocking and the running game have traditionally NOT been factors with Eli. Late in that Dallas game??? THATíS ELI TIME! Romo throws shitty late game interceptions like that, not Eli. Against Denver Ė Eli Manning doesnít throw late game interceptions. Eli Manning at the VERY LEAST, makes a blowout competitive.

So I agree with M.S. Ė yes, this Giants team is lacking in many areas, but the fact is Ė so have MANY other Coughlin/Manning teams. The difference so far has been Eliís lack of 4th quarter response.

The responses here are ALL valid. They are ALL logical. But Eliís career has not been about logic.

It has been about the ability to turn on the jets when the going gets tough.

And for 2 weeks at least, we havenít seen it.
It's Not Eli  
Percy : 9/19/2013 7:52 am : link
For the first time I can remember, he now has to be seriously concerned about some guy on the other side of the line ending his career. I mean, who's protecting him? Tends to affect one's play.
MS  
damdevs : 9/19/2013 8:12 am : link
like I stated before, which you still don't get, this is a byproduct of our offensive system. Which btw, is probably the most difficult to run and be mistake free in.

The best part of this post is that while fans like you shit all over Eli you rarely hear a coach or another player throw Eli under the bus for his Ints.

Think about it.....

turnovers, turnovers  
Dan in WNY : 9/19/2013 8:16 am : link
turnovers. Stop those and the Giants are 1-1, possibly 2-0.
damdevs... a few points...  
M.S. : 9/19/2013 9:21 am : link
(1) It is very rare indeed to hear any coach or player throw another player under the bus;

(2) Be that as it may, I didn't think I was throwing Eli under the bus... more like pointing out what I feel have been some very bad throws and some very costly on-field decisions by the Giants QB;.

(3) You seem to be arguing that the bad Eli stats (after 2 games) are a product of a complex system and that either the WRs, OL and/or fluke plays are more to blame for Eli's performance than Eli himself.

(4) I definitely recognize the other parts to Eli's performance so far, but I also believe Eli's performance begins with Eli, not someone or something else.
Totally agree  
mrvax : 9/19/2013 9:50 am : link
Quote:
If Eli isn't throwing bombs
JohnF : 9/18/2013 12:02 pm
we don't score. Our redzone offense is horrific, and it comes back to the Offensive Line not being able to block.


The rest of your post is spot on. The problem is that it's hard to fix. Unless Gilbride/Eli suddenly change their style of play (at least for some plays), nothing will change.

I can see Pugh and Brewer getting better as the season goes on. I'm not sure if Baas or Snee have much left to make the Oline respectable. No running game, no short passing game = loss.
M.S.  
regulator : 9/19/2013 10:02 am : link
Eli has made some poor decisions, no doubt, but the fact remains that the offensive line is a bigger source of our woes. Put Peyton behind this line with constant inside pressure to go with a nonexistent running game and I argue that we would still be 0-2.

A lot of these unforced errors (ironically some caused by Eli 'forcing') would not happen if we could establish some sort of consistency in running the football and reliably protect our QB in the obvious passing situations which ensue. Again, it all starts up front.
x-meadowlander..  
JCin332 : 9/19/2013 10:26 am : link
you so realize that when he threw the 4th int they were already down 38-16..?

And like I said earlier the 2nd was a fluke off the DB's heel..
38-16  
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/19/2013 1:07 pm : link
and it would have been even worse if the Broncos didn't gift us a fumble into the end zone.
The real heart of the  
OldPolack : 9/19/2013 1:27 pm : link
PROBLEM is the GIANT front office.
1. Draft for your need not best player available.
2. Our play calling is very predicable.
3. Reese is horrible.
4. Rolle and Thomas seem to be the only players on defense that are vocal.
5. By signing Jacobs we have at least he and Cruz as spark plugs.
6. Sign some that is a creative D.C.
Yeah  
OC : 9/19/2013 1:52 pm : link
Eli has struggled at times, but to put all the blame on him is plain ludicrous. When you have zero running game play action ceases to work. I will say the OL has been decent in pass pro, but their run blocking is horrendous.

I also put a fair amount of blame on the coordinators. KG has become too predictable & slow. PF is just clueless sometimes.
Sorry I meant 3rd int..  
JCin332 : 9/19/2013 3:56 pm : link
..
this is the third time  
blakjedi : 9/19/2013 4:16 pm : link
Coughlin and Co have been outcoached by... P Manning.

First half they gather intel... Second half they exploit it on both sides of the ball...

Darren Sharper said he loved playing Eli because he know there will be opportunities "to eat" which in DB speak means to get INTs... now he blames that on Eli and I dig that. In reality he's talking about our offensive strategy. what we are going to do from play to play, series to series appears to be well known in the league. When we win games (which is not THAT often 10-6 in 2007, 12-4 2008, 8-8 2009, 10-6 2010, 9-7 in 2011 and 2012) its not usually because of superior playcalling or strategy, but instead the sheer will of the players involved in the plays.

Its takes AMAZING highlight reel throws by Eli to beat coverages. Acrobatic ass catches by the WR and TE (which gets them crushed at the same time) or simply, slip ups by the secondary like when Cruz breezed past the Redskins secondary for a last second touchdown last season.

Theres a reason why 90% of Giants fans have agita instead of excitement during football season.
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