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A Logical Discussion about Mathias Kiwanuka.

What is his value on the team?

Is he overrated?
(Whatever that means. Not sure what his rating is.)

Personally I think he is an asset in the run game and he provides great depth to a premium position.
No doubt he could definitely improve in some areas.  
GiantFilthy : 9/19/2013 1:53 pm : link
His current ratings:

NJGiantFan84 : 9/19/2013 1:58 pm : link
the fact of the matter is that there aren't going to be superstars at every position. Kiwi is going to be a solid 3 DE for us. He had a rough 1st two games, but he is usually very good against the run. He also had an outstanding pre-season. He has to get some things ironed out, but he will be what he is, solid, IMO.

It's two games. Lets see how it plays out before we talk about what he is or is not. It's his first year back as an exclusive DE.
I do not really rate him that high  
NY-Fan : 9/19/2013 2:03 pm : link
I also realize that he could have been a real impact player in this league but was brought in behind some pretty good DE and was moved from one position to another. Overrated maybe by some but overpaid yes.
He's a solid player who is working back in to playing DE...  
okiegiant : 9/19/2013 2:09 pm : link
full time.

Let's see how things shake out in the next couple of weeks.
The term overrated is thrown around all the time.  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 9/19/2013 2:10 pm : link
There is a difference between overrated and never realized his full potential.

Kiwi could have been an all-pro level defender maybe. Looked very promising but then injuries and positional changes hampered his progression. He never became a star. That doesn't mean he is overrated.
The whole team looks like shit  
Go Terps : 9/19/2013 2:12 pm : link
Kiwanuka is one of many about whom the same questions can be asked.
I think of overrated  
Curtis in VA : 9/19/2013 2:15 pm : link
in terms of what fans think his potential is. And I think many feel his potential is more than it really is. So I think he's overrated.

He turned some heads a few years back when he got 4 sacks in 2 or 3 games. He's not that kind of player that is going to get numbers like that very often though, if ever again.
And to kind of piggy back off of what Go Terps said,  
Curtis in VA : 9/19/2013 2:17 pm : link
there are other players right now whose contributions thus far I'd be questioning before I'd look at Kiwanuka. He wouldn't be first in line but, he's definitely in line.
I always think performance relative to cap $$$  
jcn56 : 9/19/2013 2:18 pm : link
He's not paid like a mediocre DE, but he sure is playing like one.

He can always improve, but so far, he's been underwhelming.
He's a fine  
Jerry in DC : 9/19/2013 2:21 pm : link
whatever kind of player. You need guys like that to do a job and he does the job. Nothing special, not going to kill you.
So far, Kiwi has been average in the passing game  
oipolloi : 9/19/2013 2:22 pm : link
below average in the run game

but let's give him a few games. It's not like the Giants have anyone to replace him, given that Moore is banged up and still learning.

i'm more worried about JPP, who has been awful. A bad back can ruin a guy's career.

he's overpaid  
GiantsFan84 : 9/19/2013 2:22 pm : link
but is a very solid player.

also remember it's not his fault the coaches fucked up his development for years playing him out of position
Kiwanuka strikes me as an average-ish DE  
81_Great_Dane : 9/19/2013 2:23 pm : link
who is a good but not great pass rusher. The problem is that the Giants' defensive scheme depends on star-level DEs who are fearsome pass rushers. S

Not sure how he can be "overrated" when he's not even a starter at DE. Tuck and JPP are the starters, right?

(You could certainly have a conversation about whether Tuck and JPP are overrated at the moment, but I'd be very patient with JPP as he recovers from back surgery.)
he was not  
Fish : 9/19/2013 2:25 pm : link
Worth a first round pick.
I don't think he is overpaid at all  
oipolloi : 9/19/2013 2:31 pm : link
His contract is very favorable
Is he starter caliber?  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 9/19/2013 2:32 pm : link
Solid role player who plays into scheme, doesn't make too many mistakes but doesn't make too many great plays.

Would he have been worth the 1st rounder if he wasn't shuffled around?
Hard to know for how much he's been moved around  
BillT : 9/19/2013 2:32 pm : link
I think the 2nd half of this season will give us a better gage. Not that he won't contribute now but it may take some time for him to be fully comfortable.
Reminds me of Kenny Holmes.  
Curtis in VA : 9/19/2013 2:33 pm : link
I have a biased opinion  
GMANinDC : 9/19/2013 2:40 pm : link
because I never thought he was worth the 1st round pick and never thought he was any better than Osi..What I saw mostly posted on BBI was his rookie year with 5 sacks (i think)..From that point, it seemed his stature grew as many people didn't like Osi..
You ever watch American Idol  
Curtis in VA : 9/19/2013 2:41 pm : link
and there's all these people on there that think they're great singers because everyone tells them they are, and they're telling the judges about how good they are and how they're singing coaches or they sing in their church or at a piano bar or whatever...and you're thinking, "okay this is going to be good".

But then when they start to sing you're disappointed by how much they really suck?

Thats what I think of this team right now.
switched lb  
culloden1745 : 9/19/2013 2:41 pm : link
who knows what he could have been if he was allowed to grow into a nfl de. instead he was made to play lb, and probably never put on the size/strength that would have made him a more complete player.
addtionally the reps he got learning lb took away his time learning pass rush and run as a de
I wanted  
AnishPatel : 9/19/2013 2:47 pm : link
Mangold that year so bad. Damn Jets!
How about we get a good lead in a game  
Rjanyg : 9/19/2013 3:05 pm : link
and then see if our pass rush can get to the QB. Peyton Manning threw so many short passes in that game. How the hell do expect to get sacks or pressure without blitzing?
Fewell is as much to blame as anybody with the missing pass rush.
The problem is,  
Doomster : 9/19/2013 3:09 pm : link
we have doubts about Tuck, and we knew JPP would be hampered....with Osi gone, most of BBI felt Kiwi would just step in and replace Osi, because he was so much better against the run....Osi would take himself out of the run by going upfield , thinking pass first...But he was never manhandled, by TE's no less, in running plays, like Kiwi was in both of those TD's....and Kiwi certainly has not put much pressure on the qb, even though the DT's have forced the qb backwards....

Yes, it's only the first two games, but this is not a rookie, this is a vet, who as a linebacker has been in the 3 down position, and has rushed the's not a good sign, that this former DE is not making me forget Osi...
I thought MK was an outstanding DE  
nicky43 : 9/19/2013 3:15 pm : link
when we first brought him in. In fact, I thought he was so good I even forgave him for not finishing that tackle on the QB that ended up with us losing what I think was a divisional game.

He never seemed to be a big playmaker when we moved him to LB so I'm very hopefull moving him back to DE will allow him to shine bright once again after he re-familiarizes himself with that position.

I agree with those saying we should give him more time.
Nicky I beleive the game you are thinking of was against the Titans.  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 9/19/2013 3:31 pm : link
As much shit Osi got in the run game that speed move he has is a serious weapon.
Coming out of BC I thought he'd make  
bceagle05 : 9/19/2013 3:33 pm : link
a few Pro Bowls, but as others have mentioned he's been presented with a strange set of circumstances. Very good DE prospect who gets drafted by a team with three very good-to-great DEs, gets shoehorned into a linebacker spot, breaks his leg, hurts his's a lot to overcome. Certainly hasn't lived up to expectations. I thought he'd have a break out year this year in the Osi role, but it hasn't been pretty so far.

He was a beast, however, in the NFC title game in San Fran, which almost justifies the draft pick by itself. And if character counts for anything, he's off the charts in that regard.
Giants Fan in Steelers land - you are correct  
nicky43 : 9/19/2013 3:42 pm : link
Thanks. It was the Titans. I remember how mad BBI was at him for that. I mean, some were killing the guy with words and I kept thinking to myself heck, man this guy made great plays all day and they can't forgive this rookie error. Actually, he was trying not to get a penalty for roughing the passer thinking the whistle blew. And they should have blew the whistle. He had his arms around the QB for what seemed like 10 minutes.

There is a name for players like Kiwi  
oldutican : 9/19/2013 3:53 pm : link
JAG: Just a guy. Sorry to say it. A gentleman who did whatever Giants asked of him. But he is easily replaced. He should have been a 3-4 OLB and I'm surprised that isn't what happened before he re-signed with Giants.
I start to question  
Randy in CT : 9/19/2013 4:07 pm : link
game-planning when guys like Kiwi, Tuck, JPP etc aren't making more plays. You think everybody suddenly got bad?
Based on your definition of JAG  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 9/19/2013 4:15 pm : link
I'd say Kiwi falls somewhere between a completely replaceable guy and dangerous role player.

A guy like Osi was a very dangerous situational player.

As a situational run stopper Kiwi can still be a very useful player. Watch the opening drive DEN had and on a play you will see Kiwi beat Clady going inside and slice across the backside of the line. The RB got the ball and was immediately faced with Kiwi and had to juke into Mundy to avoid the tackle. He completely blew the play up.

Time will tell if he is no longer able to make any kind of impact in the pass rush. If he can make a little impact I would rate him a borderline 3 down DE. He'd start on a bad team but get push down the depth chart on a team with more talent at DE.
JPP hasn't been awful, he just hasn't been JPP  
jcn56 : 9/19/2013 4:16 pm : link
That's more a factor of him still recovering from back surgery and having played two excellent OLTs back to back.
It's hard to classify him  
bceagle05 : 9/19/2013 4:20 pm : link
as a bad first round pick, too. The fact that he's on the roster eight years later means the Giants have gotten a lot of return on investment, and his second contract was very reasonable from a cap standpoint. And he was chosen with the final selection of the first round, so it's not like we swung and missed on a top 15 pick.
Just a bad pick by the organization.  
Reese's Pieces : 9/19/2013 10:46 pm : link
For years we've been hearing that the Giants pick the best available player, even if it's at a position where they're already stacked. And as an example they cite, all together now, "LAWRENCE TAYLOR".

So here's the answer to the above. LT was an all-time great beginning in his rookie year. Kiwanuka (coincidentally from Boston College) wasn't good enough to replace any of the veterans, so he was moved to LB, which he didn't like, and he never turned into a playmaker.

Moral: it's not always good to take the best player available if he's not going to be the best player at that position on your team.

Random stat: Kiwanuka in his seven years with the Giants has a total of eight forced fumbles. Umenyiora had ten forced fumbles in one year, 2010.

DeMeco Ryans was the best  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/19/2013 11:25 pm : link
Player available when Kiwi was picked. But it's not like linebackers are very important.
Kiwi and the Run  
Percy : 9/20/2013 7:32 am : link
Didn't Kiwi fail to hold the end on two runs wide that went for scores last game? Looked like they could go around him with a little blocking every time. Value? Not so much.
NJGiantFan84 : 9/20/2013 10:00 am : link
I don't think he is overpaid at all
oipolloi : 9/19/2013 2:31 pm : link
His contract is very favorable

I agree. I rarely take people seriously who use the term "overpaid." The reason is that they look at the amount a player makes and determine if he is making too much based on their opinion of him and the dollar amount. There is no research done on what players of similar caliber, position, experience and production are making.

There is also an obsession on BBI to dislike guys because of their cap hit. They think that these players can be cut and the money can be spent on another position of need. In reality, the money you save off of cutting a contributing player is most likely going to be spent on replacing that player, unless you downgrade or pick up a rookie in the draft.
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