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Draft and LB

stretch234 : 9/20/2013 1:41 pm
Since so many on BBI criticize the LB and say Reese does not draft any, I went back to see where the Giants drafted and they missed out on looking at the first 3 rounds of 07-11 drafts.

2007 - Ross - 20th: Beason 25, Spencer 26, Pozluzny 34, Harris 47, Durant 48
Smith - 51: Black 68, Davis 69
Alford - 81: Bradley 87, Okwo 94, waters 96

There was no debate that NY was going to take CB. Beason, Spencer & Harris are good LB. None of the others did anything

2008 - Philips - 31: Lofton 37, Dizon 45
Thomas - 63: Gooden 72, Crable 78, Wheeler 93
Manningham last pick in rd 3

Lofton is the only guy playing and Atlanta did not resign him

2009 - Nicks - 29: Laurenaitis 35, Maueluga 38, Sintim 45
Beatty - 60: Williams 69, Levy 76
Barden - 85: Mckenzie 97

After the Sintim pick, no LB were drafted until williams - he and Mckenzie are on their 4th teams

2010 - JPP - 15: Weatherspoon 19
Joseph - 46: Washington 47, Lee 55, Spikes 62, Angerer 63
Jones - 76: Butler 79, Bowmann 91, Curran 98

Linval is a very good DT, Lee had all sorts of injury questions. Bowmann the NFL missed on

2011 - Prince - 19: Ayers 39, Carter 40
Austin - 52: Mouton 61, Moch 66, Irving 67, Sheppard 68, Wilson 72
Jernigan - 83: Foster 84, Dent 91

While we can debate the Austin pick, those 5 LB picked after him are not exactly lighting it up. 3 of them do not play. The 2 guys after Jernigan are better

The point of this is - the best LB are picked very early in the draft and the Giants have hardly been in a situation where quality LB were available. The guys after LinJo are good, but so is he and at a position generally difficult to find good players.

Based upon this, you are relying on late round picks or FA players. This shows there are not a lot of LB coming from college
Mason Foster would be a big upgrade  
jeff57 : 9/20/2013 1:46 pm : link
And you don't include '12, missing out on Lavonte David, Bobby Wagner and Zach Brown.

As for "everyone knew we were taking a corner," not everyone knew that, and that's not how they draft (or so I'm always told). BPA. Beason was, and is, a better player than Ross.
faulty reasoning  
BigBlueCane : 9/20/2013 1:49 pm : link
because you're assuming those players picked would have performed exactly same in this situation as they would in another or their current position.
stretch234 : 9/20/2013 1:53 pm : link
2012 - Wilson was picked 32. Wagner was picked 15 spots later. You are going bitch that they should have reached for Wagner. David was a 220lb LB coming out of Nebraska - there were major questions he could play LB in the NFL - he has done it. He was picked 58th. After Randle picked, Demarrio Davis and Shaun Spence

You can debate all you want, there was a 100% certainty that the Giants were taking the CB in 2007 based upon the CB entering that season. They did not have a choice but to get new talent.
nah, better to trade up to get a backup QB ;)  
Victor in CT : 9/20/2013 1:55 pm : link
Yes, Stretch I understand  
jeff57 : 9/20/2013 1:57 pm : link
Reese can do no wrong and linebackers always perform better on other teams than they would have on the Giants.
Think the Giants used to actually put forth some effort  
ghost718 : 9/20/2013 1:57 pm : link
when it came to the linebacker position.Whether it be in Free Agency or the Draft.

Now it seems that is no longer the case.It's like the more complaining people do the worse our linebackers get.

Lionhart28 : 9/20/2013 2:00 pm : link
Daryl washington is nasty.
stretch234 : 9/20/2013 2:03 pm : link
Where did I say that. Clearly the players picked after Jernigan are better. You can debate the DT vs LB pick.

You want to say he erred with Austin and Sintim - I totally agree. When it comes to the LB, the point is there are not many at the times the Giants are picking
There have always been options, if not through the draft then  
Curtis in VA : 9/20/2013 2:16 pm : link
free agency. The Giants continue to pass on them.
There are an insanely high amount  
KooKoo4Giants : 9/20/2013 2:30 pm : link
of logical fallacies presented in the thread. The entire argument is stupid
My main beef with the way the Giants handle the LB position  
Rjanyg : 9/20/2013 2:30 pm : link
Stop drafting 3-4 LB and 4-3 ends and try to make them 4-3 LBs..... How about drafting 4-3 LB, even if they are not 6'3" and 250. There a good bunch on smaller LB that can fly and hit.
Fair point  
dcgiantsfan : 9/20/2013 2:32 pm : link
While you make a good point, the first year of your analysis is probably the best opportunity Big Blue has had to add a very good LB; especially early on in the draft. They have always gone BPA and made fairly good picks. The only year I wanted to "reach" (and I use that loosely) on a LB was with Spoon. But obviously, JPP has more than made up for that pick.

But back to 07, had we taken Revis then the discussion is moot. But that year I wanted Beason more than any other DB. He has proven to be everything our LBs haven't been. Ross has been decent, but I think his production could have been had by other means had they drafted Beason.

Overall, they need to scrap their draft philosophy when it comes to LBs.
For better or worse...  
Jan in DC : 9/20/2013 2:42 pm : link
I think you've seen the front office devalue certain positions in terms of draft pick value. Interior offensive line and Linebackers. I think the Giants have LBs devalued because of the emphasis that the league has on 3 WR and spread formations.

I think the devalue of interior OL has come from the fact that Eli has a great pocket presence.

Personally, I feel like if you neglect something for long enough, it catches up to you.
Giants no longer elite at DE  
Steve in South Jersey : 9/20/2013 2:48 pm : link
I would like them to start loading up on LB with the thought of switching to a 3-4 defense in 2015. They are loaded with DT's now that may be able to play 3-4 DE and 3-4 NT. A 3-4 defense would work better against these read option offenses.
Perhaps we on BBI are looking at this too narrowly.  
Blackbeard : 9/20/2013 2:52 pm : link
How about this scenario:
"Poor LB drafting plus lousy Def. Coord. equals big problems."
Would we have two SB's  
Doomster : 9/20/2013 4:30 pm : link
without Ross?
Would we have two SB's  
Doomster : 9/20/2013 4:30 pm : link
without Ross?
I had to jump back into this,  
Doomster : 9/20/2013 4:34 pm : link
because I know a few guys would take it the wrong way....this was not a dominant take away any piece, like Strahan, Tuck, Osi in the first SB run or Mario, Bradshaw, Tuck, Webster, etc in the other, and do we win?
I had to jump back into this,  
Doomster : 9/20/2013 4:34 pm : link
because I know a few guys would take it the wrong way....this was not a dominant take away any piece, like Strahan, Tuck, Osi in the first SB run or Mario, Bradshaw, Tuck, Webster, etc in the other, and do we win?
Doomster : 9/20/2013 4:35 pm : link
All these arguments point to the need to switch to 3-4  
Jupiter : 9/20/2013 6:17 pm : link
With the way the players are used in college, and the way they fit into the NFL, the 3-4 defense is easier to find players for.
4-3 linebackers are nearly impossible to find.  
Ace718 : 9/20/2013 6:34 pm : link
Go back to EA. Kiwi over  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/20/2013 7:31 pm : link
DeMeco Ryans was a miss. Add to that trading up for Moss and giving up the pick they got when they traded down.

Giants need a MLB and EA went for a DE. It happens but Ryans was. Very good to great LB Until injury. Kiwi has never been anything other than average.
"4-3 linebackers are nearly impossible to find"  
jeff57 : 9/20/2013 8:38 pm : link
They are if you're not looking.
stretch234 : 9/20/2013 9:25 pm : link
Didn't the Giants have Antonio Pierce as the MLB when they drafted Kiwi
Hmm we have a Tamper 2 defense  
Blueballz : 9/21/2013 1:57 am : link
where LBs are the straw that stirs the drink. Yet we refuse to draft or pickup a LB that fits that system. Hmmmmm...
nygnyy274 : 9/21/2013 7:26 am : link
Should of been drafted in 2007 bottom line. Ross stinks
Stretch,yeah they had Piece but  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/21/2013 7:29 am : link
Ryans could have played Anotherostipn and wouldn't have had to start right away. They had Osi and Strahan when they drafted Kiwi. Both a lot better than Pierce.

You could argue that after Pierces first tow years his play declined pretty rapidly. He was a smart tough player but he became a lability pretty quickly.
Calculate rounds 4-7  
COLT46 : 9/21/2013 8:14 am : link
and let me know what you come up with, I like playing what if.
The Salary Cap  
mrvax : 9/21/2013 11:22 am : link
Teams have a philosophy they live or die with.
They have to put a premium on the positions they believe will get the most bang for the buck.

The Giants obviously highly value QB, WR, DE and DT.
Next the DBs.

If there was magically extra cap money for the Giants to spend, don't you think they'd upgrade what they feel are the lesser rated positions?

You have to do the best you can with what you have. An upgrade at LB would probably mean a downgrade at another important position.

Maybe the solution is to cut Eli, promote Nassib and sign the finest 3 free agent LB this off season?
Cut Eli?  
Doomster : 9/21/2013 11:58 am : link
Can we at least trade him?
The Salary cap is a bogus excuse  
jeff57 : 9/21/2013 3:09 pm : link
They've had problems at LB for years. Way before Manning signed his extension.
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