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I thought Flaherty and Pope were best in the business

pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:00 am
and whoever Reese provides for them will become competent (at least) players at their positions. I have read that sentiment countless times on this site.

Can those people who actually have that opinion explain the 2013 NY Giants?

After seeing the likes of Adrien Robinson, Travis Beckum, Pascoe, Ballard, Boss, etc. be very average or worse and the only guys succeed in this role, I mean really succeed were Bennett and Shockey, kind of makes that a rose colored glasses kind of thing.

You can't give the coach credit for those players who do well, but then blame the player or Reese for the guys who don't, can you?

And the o-line just don't know who to blame, but someone should be blamed (maybe a combination of Reese and Flaherty and Gilbride?) and if you're saying how great Flaherty is with the line of Diehl, Seubert O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie (the highest draft pick out of all of them is Snee (2nd round) and Snee and McKenzie the only day 1 (old day 1) picks wins a SB don't you have to criticize him for how downright awful they are now? The only change to this line from last year is Pugh for Diehl. How can that not be addition by subtraction?

Anyway, I don't mean this to be confrontational, but I used to read this constantly as players like Boss, Bennett and other TE's were jettisoned (or at least not-resigned) that Pope will make whoever we have into competent tight ends and Flaherty will get the line in shape. I haven't necessarily given up hope, but your eyes don't lie. This line is playing worse than the 2004 line Joe Theismann called "the worst offensive line in the NFL"

This team is looking 0 - 4 squarely in the face and then the Eagles and Bears, so 0 - 6 is not a ridiculous thought unfortunately
How did Bennett "really succeed"  
regulator : 9/23/2013 8:03 am : link
And Boss/Ballard did not?

They all looked fairly similar to me in terms of production and effectiveness.

However, it's clear that Myers is nothing more than a slow, less-athletic WR at that position. He is an ineffective blocker and his mistakes in the pass game are negating the only aspect of his play that can be difference-making.
You need talent to mold  
Sammo284 : 9/23/2013 8:06 am : link
The front office and coaching staff is getting bit by the "arrogance" bug finally, thinking that you could try and take a "moneyball" approach to things and that certain premiums placed on positions are either overstated or overvalued.

I say Bennett  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:07 am : link
and Shockey succeeded because they were both good two-way tight ends. Both good blocker, and both skilled offensively. Bennett was more raw than Shockey (or at least less proven), but both good two-way tight ends.

Boss was a couple notches below them. Ballard below Boss, and Pascoe, Myers, etc. Beckum, Robinson, etc. have shown zero.

Donnell might be the best TE on the roster from a raw skill standpoint, but shouldn't Pope be able to "coach up" the JPP of tight ends? Actually he kind of looks like the JPP of tight ends, invisible.

That's my point though  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:10 am : link
if Pope and Flaherty are just successful when they are provided talented players, doesn't that kind of take away some of the "Pope will make tight ends out of whoever is on the roster" sentiment?

If Pope and Flaherty will take talented players and make them into football players, well what coach can't do that?

I'm probably frustrated and oversimplifying, but I think allowing the status quo, which the Giants usually do, would be a mistake.

I've never seen such a lifeless, unmotivated, clueless performance by the Giants, and no I was barely old enough to remember the 70's I wasn't watching the Giants then.
Flaherty needs to go  
jeff57 : 9/23/2013 8:13 am : link
despite the lack of talent on the line. No one they draft seems to get better.
Pope's got a really long track record  
jcn56 : 9/23/2013 8:14 am : link
If he can't make something out of these guys, it's the exception, not the rule. In fairness, though, Robinson was the lead and the guy was hurt a lot up until this point.

Flaherty's got an out. He's got two guys living off rep who don't belong out there. They're established, proven vets, one of whom had a good long run here. If his play has fallen off a cliff, you can't blame Flaherty.
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:20 am : link
I don't disagree with much, other than Pope's long track record.

I think he has a great reputation, like some of the players om the Giants. Coughlin loves him, only coach he retained and probably? the longest tenured Giant not named Mara.

From an actual player standpoint, where can you show a TE he developed? Shiancoe? I don't think the Giants new what they had with Shiancoe or he wouldn't have been let go without so much as a fight.

And your Flaherty comments kind of sum up my point, no one ever gets blamed. It's not Flaherty's fault, it's not Reese's fault, it's the players fault, but when those same players won a SB a season + ago wow, what a great coaching job and Reese is the best GM in the business.

pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:20 am : link
= knew
I see nothing changing  
Yalebowl_Ribs : 9/23/2013 8:22 am : link
the O-line is done,they work all week on gills plan and that does not have a short game say for some lip service.

The giants are a play action team and with no run game the plays over the top won't work .

Gilbride will never change his system, no help is there for the O-line not on the team not in free agency.

say good night to this season unless they overhall gills game plan , and that would alone take a good part of the season to be half good at.

the best that I see this team is 6 and 10 if they get lucky and that's a shame, if changes come in the off season they should start with the OC and DC.
Toth029 : 9/23/2013 8:22 am : link
For what Boss and Ballard were coming out of college, Pope did an amazing job with them. Bennett was already a good two way TE coming to NY. Boss was not much of a blocker and just a natural receiver, but was coached up into a pretty decent player who is capable of both. Ballard's main flaw was speed, but he turned out to be reliable that single season as well. Both succeeded with NYG in their years as Bennett did...
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:25 am : link
so why could he not do that with Robinson or Beckum who were much more heralded than Boss or Ballard?

Maybe we underrated who Boss and Ballard were and what their skill sets were coming in to the NFL?
Hang on - I did say it was Reese's fault  
jcn56 : 9/23/2013 8:26 am : link
He gambled and lost there.

Flaherty is a coach. If someone isn't performing to their ability, first finger gets pointed at him.

The problem is the guys who aren't performing aren't at a loss for coaching. Snee is a veteran drafted in 2004. He was a Pro-Bowl level guard for a long time. This isn't a player development issue, it's an age/longevity issue, something Flaherty can't correct.

Same issue with Baas, except you could argue it was the coaching if he weren't perpetually injured.

At the point where 40% of your offensive line is useless, what can you do with the rest to make it look like a decent line? Not a whole lot.
And as for Pope...  
jcn56 : 9/23/2013 8:29 am : link
Shiancoe got crazy money. The Giants weren't matching that, even if they knew what they had. Up until that point the existence of Shockey made it hard to get him reps.

We've had top flight performance from the TE position for awhile. That's on Pope. You want to say that Bennett was a good two way TE before he got here? He didn't break 300 yards once in his career, and his prior three years he didn't have a TD reception. He went over 600 and 5 TDs in his single year here. That's partly Pope and partly the system.

If Robinson ends up healthy and doesn't turn out decent numbers, blame Pope, without a doubt. Too soon for these products though, they're only a few games in, and AR has been hurt almost the entire time. By Game 16 we should know more.
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:31 am : link
shouldn't some of the other draft picks, even late draft picks, eventually pay some dividends?

guys like Mosely, Brewer, etc. that's where o-line coaches make their bones IMO, saving the franchise cash on the cap, by getting projects to play at an acceptable level. It's how the 2007 SB line was built. Seubert, Diehl, and O'Hara, were all either undrafted (or a 5th round pick - Diehl). One FA (McKenzie) and one high draft pick (Snee).

pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:33 am : link
O'Hara was a FA, but undrafted.
Definitely - and IMO that's a knock on Flaherty  
jcn56 : 9/23/2013 8:34 am : link
His inability to develop any of the guys that have come in since is definitely a red mark against him. I'd love to say they're trapped behind a journeyman Boothe and an aging Snee, but when we saw them in the preseason they looked like crap.
By 2007  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:35 am : link
though, Shiancoe in reality was as good a Shockey, he was among the best blocking TE's and as skilled a receiver as there was (for a blocking TE) in the league.

He (Shiancoe) was a 3rd round pick.

You don't invest a 3rd round pick for a guy to sit on the bench or to spell your star TE.

No one on the Giants knew how good Shiancoe was IMO.
Not every raw athlete can be coached into a player  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/23/2013 8:41 am : link
Mike Pope has a very long track record not just of producing good players, but players who speak highly of his methods, and other franchises and Tight Ends coaches who agree with the opinion.

You have to remember that with the new CBA, practice time is less than ever.
The Giants plan was to draft measurables  
jcn56 : 9/23/2013 8:42 am : link
They did in Shiancoe - an unbelievable athlete whose measurements (hehe) were off the chart but was raw. They had Pope, who could come in and develop him.

What went wrong? Well, first that's a bad plan in the cap era (and one knock against Reese you could make and have a hard time defending against). Then there's the fact that the second TE in this offense isn't going to do a whole lot more than block, thus negating what value he did offer.

Shiancoe got a ton of money, more than we could afford to match. So we went back to the drawing board to repeat. We got Boss for Pope to develop (with good success), and two years later, we tried again for measurables with Beckum (with not such great success).
Extrapolate that thinking across the board  
dcgiantsfan : 9/23/2013 8:43 am : link
What positions have any of the coaches "developed" over the years. I am more than willing to give Flaherty and Pope a pass, because those units have been fairly consistent during their tenure. The Oline has been good (was very good in 2008) without a significant big name player, and the TEs have been solid. Again aside from Shockey, we haven't had that big name guy but very good contributors in Boss, Ballard and Bennett.

In looking at other positions, where have we developed any good players?? The bulk of the investment (high draft picks and/or free agency) has been in the DEs and secondary, so those are our supposed highly talented/big name players. We all know whoever has worn the hat of LB coach has done a terrible job:-)
holy short term memory  
chris r : 9/23/2013 8:44 am : link
Pope is a great TE coach. This is the first season the new starting TE has not vastly outplayed expectations.
and I never heard anyone call Flaherty the best in the business  
chris r : 9/23/2013 8:45 am : link
Cam in MO : 9/23/2013 8:46 am : link
and his prior three years he didn't have a TD reception. He went over 600 and 5 TDs in his single year here. That's partly Pope and partly the system.

But mostly because he didn't have Witten playing in front of him here.

SamTheTram : 9/23/2013 8:54 am : link
Both coaches have the luxury of pouring perfume on a pig this season
2nd link  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:55 am : link
in a google search:

Giants’ OL coach Pat Flaherty is one of the best in the business. The Giants are consistently at the top of the league in rushing yards and last year allowed the least amount of QB sacks. He visited with FOX Sports’ Brian Billick to talk strategy this week…
so the expectations  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:57 am : link
of Boss and Ballard were nothing, hard to not live up to those.

Beckum lived up to expectations?

Robinson has lived up to expectations?

It seems in many cases when there are nobody's then they surpass expectations (prob because the expectations are so low), but when the Giants expend resources and draft someone they fail.
Beckum failed because he chose to fail.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/23/2013 8:59 am : link
The guy admitted he didn't work hard, and he was never healthy to play.

If I remember correctly  
PlaxPower : 9/23/2013 9:00 am : link
EA was the Gm that drafted Vishante. Not JR.
I know  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 9:01 am : link
it's never the coach.

So, now what you're saying is a guy who has the physical tools, the desire to succeed, wants to work hard, and is willing to listen to a coach, then he can be coached up?

I agree, Pope must be the best in the business if those are the only circumstances he's accountable.

I actually wondered when Flaherty would get called out  
islander1 : 9/23/2013 10:08 am : link
I honestly just didn't have the energy to do it sooner.
Boss and Ballard were failures?  
Ace718 : 9/23/2013 10:10 am : link
Your post loses credibility when you make up such claims.
I'm fully behind Pope, though.  
islander1 : 9/23/2013 10:12 am : link
He's been making lemonade out of lemons for years.
Why is it Mike Pope's fault  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/23/2013 10:19 am : link
if a lazy player doesn't work hard and washes out of the league? My college professor isn't accountable if I refuse to put in the work.

pope is a good coach  
xtian : 9/23/2013 12:05 pm : link
what are you talking about? the giants have been productive with the revolving door TE position in recent years. robinson is really green and now has been hurt--we dont know about him. myers is a good receiver/weak blocker type and is performing as advertised. pascoe is an effort jack-of-all-trades. donnell is also green and talented. also, gilbride doesnt focus on te putting up big numbers because they are looking deep first.
I can't get on Pope too much.  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/23/2013 12:10 pm : link
Myers has been dreadful and despite the fact that Adrien Robinson rarely plays, the guy somehow manages to get hurt alot. "JPP of TEs," not so much.
flaherty is fine  
xtian : 9/23/2013 12:11 pm : link
but the OL has been horrible. for snee and baas i guess it is age and injuries. for beatty, no excuse for last game, same with boothe. for pugh, he is a rookie. the giants are going no where but the first pick in the draft if the OL continues this way.
Where did I say Boss  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 12:15 pm : link
and Ballard were failures? I said the bar was low for both of them, so even their mediocre play was viewed as an accomplishment.

I said Beckum was a failure, Adrien Robinson is a failure so far.

Basically his claim to fame is Mark Bavaro and Jeremy Shockey. I'm pretty sure most TE's would be considered the best in the business provided those two personas/skill sets.

Anyone claiming Boss, Ballard, Pascoe, etc. are anything beyond mediocre are probably the same people saying Reese did the right thing releasing Ballard because he stunk. - because of course you can't criticize Pope.

should be  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 12:15 pm : link
most TE's "COACHES" would be...
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