and whoever Reese provides for them will become competent (at least) players at their positions. I have read that sentiment countless times on this site.
Can those people who actually have that opinion explain the 2013 NY Giants?
After seeing the likes of Adrien Robinson, Travis Beckum, Pascoe, Ballard, Boss, etc. be very average or worse and the only guys succeed in this role, I mean really succeed were Bennett and Shockey, kind of makes that a rose colored glasses kind of thing.
You can't give the coach credit for those players who do well, but then blame the player or Reese for the guys who don't, can you?
And the o-line just don't know who to blame, but someone should be blamed (maybe a combination of Reese and Flaherty and Gilbride?) and if you're saying how great Flaherty is with the line of Diehl, Seubert O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie (the highest draft pick out of all of them is Snee (2nd round) and Snee and McKenzie the only day 1 (old day 1) picks wins a SB don't you have to criticize him for how downright awful they are now? The only change to this line from last year is Pugh for Diehl. How can that not be addition by subtraction?
Anyway, I don't mean this to be confrontational, but I used to read this constantly as players like Boss, Bennett and other TE's were jettisoned (or at least not-resigned) that Pope will make whoever we have into competent tight ends and Flaherty will get the line in shape. I haven't necessarily given up hope, but your eyes don't lie. This line is playing worse than the 2004 line Joe Theismann called "the worst offensive line in the NFL"
This team is looking 0 - 4 squarely in the face and then the Eagles and Bears, so 0 - 6 is not a ridiculous thought unfortunately
They all looked fairly similar to me in terms of production and effectiveness.
However, it's clear that Myers is nothing more than a slow, less-athletic WR at that position. He is an ineffective blocker and his mistakes in the pass game are negating the only aspect of his play that can be difference-making.
Boss was a couple notches below them. Ballard below Boss, and Pascoe, Myers, etc. Beckum, Robinson, etc. have shown zero.
Donnell might be the best TE on the roster from a raw skill standpoint, but shouldn't Pope be able to "coach up" the JPP of tight ends? Actually he kind of looks like the JPP of tight ends, invisible.
If Pope and Flaherty will take talented players and make them into football players, well what coach can't do that?
I'm probably frustrated and oversimplifying, but I think allowing the status quo, which the Giants usually do, would be a mistake.
I've never seen such a lifeless, unmotivated, clueless performance by the Giants, and no I was barely old enough to remember the 70's I wasn't watching the Giants then.
Flaherty's got an out. He's got two guys living off rep who don't belong out there. They're established, proven vets, one of whom had a good long run here. If his play has fallen off a cliff, you can't blame Flaherty.
I think he has a great reputation, like some of the players om the Giants. Coughlin loves him, only coach he retained and probably? the longest tenured Giant not named Mara.
From an actual player standpoint, where can you show a TE he developed? Shiancoe? I don't think the Giants new what they had with Shiancoe or he wouldn't have been let go without so much as a fight.
And your Flaherty comments kind of sum up my point, no one ever gets blamed. It's not Flaherty's fault, it's not Reese's fault, it's the players fault, but when those same players won a SB a season + ago wow, what a great coaching job and Reese is the best GM in the business.
The giants are a play action team and with no run game the plays over the top won't work .
Gilbride will never change his system, no help is there for the O-line not on the team not in free agency.
say good night to this season unless they overhall gills game plan , and that would alone take a good part of the season to be half good at.
the best that I see this team is 6 and 10 if they get lucky and that's a shame, if changes come in the off season they should start with the OC and DC.
Maybe we underrated who Boss and Ballard were and what their skill sets were coming in to the NFL?
Flaherty is a coach. If someone isn't performing to their ability, first finger gets pointed at him.
The problem is the guys who aren't performing aren't at a loss for coaching. Snee is a veteran drafted in 2004. He was a Pro-Bowl level guard for a long time. This isn't a player development issue, it's an age/longevity issue, something Flaherty can't correct.
Same issue with Baas, except you could argue it was the coaching if he weren't perpetually injured.
At the point where 40% of your offensive line is useless, what can you do with the rest to make it look like a decent line? Not a whole lot.
We've had top flight performance from the TE position for awhile. That's on Pope. You want to say that Bennett was a good two way TE before he got here? He didn't break 300 yards once in his career, and his prior three years he didn't have a TD reception. He went over 600 and 5 TDs in his single year here. That's partly Pope and partly the system.
If Robinson ends up healthy and doesn't turn out decent numbers, blame Pope, without a doubt. Too soon for these products though, they're only a few games in, and AR has been hurt almost the entire time. By Game 16 we should know more.
guys like Mosely, Brewer, etc. that's where o-line coaches make their bones IMO, saving the franchise cash on the cap, by getting projects to play at an acceptable level. It's how the 2007 SB line was built. Seubert, Diehl, and O'Hara, were all either undrafted (or a 5th round pick - Diehl). One FA (McKenzie) and one high draft pick (Snee).
He (Shiancoe) was a 3rd round pick.
You don't invest a 3rd round pick for a guy to sit on the bench or to spell your star TE.
No one on the Giants knew how good Shiancoe was IMO.
You have to remember that with the new CBA, practice time is less than ever.
What went wrong? Well, first that's a bad plan in the cap era (and one knock against Reese you could make and have a hard time defending against). Then there's the fact that the second TE in this offense isn't going to do a whole lot more than block, thus negating what value he did offer.
Shiancoe got a ton of money, more than we could afford to match. So we went back to the drawing board to repeat. We got Boss for Pope to develop (with good success), and two years later, we tried again for measurables with Beckum (with not such great success).
In looking at other positions, where have we developed any good players?? The bulk of the investment (high draft picks and/or free agency) has been in the DEs and secondary, so those are our supposed highly talented/big name players. We all know whoever has worn the hat of LB coach has done a terrible job:-)
But mostly because he didn't have Witten playing in front of him here.
Beckum lived up to expectations?
Robinson has lived up to expectations?
It seems in many cases when there are nobody's then they surpass expectations (prob because the expectations are so low), but when the Giants expend resources and draft someone they fail.
So, now what you're saying is a guy who has the physical tools, the desire to succeed, wants to work hard, and is willing to listen to a coach, then he can be coached up?
I agree, Pope must be the best in the business if those are the only circumstances he's accountable.
I said Beckum was a failure, Adrien Robinson is a failure so far.
Basically his claim to fame is Mark Bavaro and Jeremy Shockey. I'm pretty sure most TE's would be considered the best in the business provided those two personas/skill sets.
Anyone claiming Boss, Ballard, Pascoe, etc. are anything beyond mediocre are probably the same people saying Reese did the right thing releasing Ballard because he stunk. - because of course you can't criticize Pope.