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Was the Flozell Adams Tripping Penalty

pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 5:32 pm
the beginning of the end of Justin Tuck as we knew him?

When he emerged in the 2007 playoff run, I hadn't seen many Giants that dominant and that versatile. He could play inside, was stout against the run, rush the passer outside, he looked pretty much unstoppable.

After the SB my Pats fan friends told me he was one of the best defensive players they remember the Pats facing. On any team, ever. seriously.

He was still good in 2008. The whole D was until the end of the season when things unraveled.

Was that play (video linked below) the end? Or was that stretch just an anomaly and Tuck just wasn't as good as I choose to remember?

I can imagine a D-lineman without total shoulder strength is not as effective. Just trying to figure it out.

Is that a reach?
Flozell the dirt bag trips Tuck - ( New Window )
It was an utterly classless, dirtbag move from that massive POS.  
Exit 172 : 9/23/2013 5:38 pm : link
That said, Tuck was already experiencing injuries at Notre Dame, and if falling down to the turf like that could be a career-changer, it could have happened on any sack or missed tackle.

I think Tuck was destined to break down early regardless of Flozell. (But didn't Flozell also shove Tuck from behind at Giants Stadium in another game, knocking Tuck to the ground?)
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 5:40 pm : link
Flozell pushed him from behind after a game and there was an altercation. I remember Kiwi getting in Flozell's face.
I think it was after the first half expired.  
Exit 172 : 9/23/2013 5:40 pm : link
It's coming back to me now.
It was after the first half expired  
Sneakers O'toole : 9/23/2013 5:42 pm : link
it had the effect of making the league look into how penalties are enforced for dead ball penalties at the expatriation of the half.
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 5:45 pm : link
here is a brief video of the event. if you fast forward to 3/4 of the way through
Flozell is a dirt bag - ( New Window )
He had his 2nd best season as a pro the year following the trip.  
arcarsenal : 9/23/2013 5:54 pm : link
I don't know why people keep making this connection when there isn't really one to make.
Motel Adams  
Spark Em Up 22 : 9/23/2013 5:59 pm : link
Cheap and dirty
So how do you explain  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 6:03 pm : link
it Arc.

just got bad all of a sudden? Even if he played well in 2010, that's why I said the "beginning of the end"
I don't understand how it would be the "beginning of the end"..  
arcarsenal : 9/23/2013 6:09 pm : link
...if he played a full 16 game year the following season and played at an excellent, pro bowl level.

It's the NFL. Guys break down and they can lose it quickly. I don't think there was necessarily one particular play that signaled the start of his demise. I think ailments just started piling up on him and I think he's just got some milage on his body now and can't really get totally healthy. He's 30 years old now.. which doesn't sound old.. but in football years, it can be.
stop me if I am wrong  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/23/2013 6:15 pm : link
but didnt Kenny Phillips get cheap shotted by Flozel in the same game?
It could be the beginning of the end  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 6:16 pm : link
if he hurt his shoulder, tried and did play through it the next season - with constant treatment, but then paid the price because it never healed properly.

I get guys break down, but usually it's a slower process to go from that good to this invisible, and it's been 2 years of invisibility, so 28 is kind of young to break down for no other reason.
The question is really  
Sneakers O'toole : 9/23/2013 6:16 pm : link
one of whether or not that injury had a long term effect. And there is no way for us to answer that definitively.
Agree Sneakers  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 6:22 pm : link
just searching for explanations. It at least seems plausible to me even if some people find the idea completely ludicrous but a grown man breaking down at 27/28 in seemingly otherwise good health more reasonable.

The perception around the league (and even some here) is that the Giants have a strong pass rush, and D-line and a lot of times you hear Tuck referenced.

As we've seen the past two seasons, it's quite the opposite. The pass rush is mostly non-existent and Tuck a non-factor mostly.

Football is a brutal sport.  
arcarsenal : 9/23/2013 6:23 pm : link
I don't know why it's far fetched to think a guy could start to break down in his late 20's when we've seen it so many times. One thing leads to another and sometimes guys just can't get healthy.
He's had shoulder issues ever since  
Dave in Hoboken : 9/23/2013 6:46 pm : link
and that certainly has hurt him on the field. That, and a combo of him playing in the middle has taken a toll on his body. The shoulder injury and playing in the middle has been an awful combo for his career.
his invisibility  
mdc1 : 9/23/2013 7:01 pm : link
act was evident before the tripping episode. You can't play at the high levels forever. This is a young mans game, gotta keep rotating the old guys out. This org has been a hard learner on the o and d lines. The fans will suffer for a while now.

At least he has subway.
I'm not so....  
Robert : 9/23/2013 7:37 pm : link
sure that anyone is worried about our front. So far this season, they're not scaring anyone. The pressure sure isn't what it used to be. Bet the game film clears up the reputation pretty quickly.
Using him  
blakjedi : 9/23/2013 7:45 pm : link
as a DT going up against center guard combos was always a bad idea...
arc is right  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/23/2013 7:49 pm : link
people do this with some injuries for whatever reason, i guess the years just run together for them. If i had a nickel for everyone who said Carson Palmer was never the same after he hurt his knee in the 05 playoffs, even though he came back with a huge 06 before elbow issues slowed him
The difference is  
Sneakers O'toole : 9/23/2013 7:54 pm : link
despite some good play after that event, nagging shoulder injuries have been a part of his career. So to suggest that this moment may have had a hand in that, isn't a stretch. We can't really answer it one way or the other.
So you're saying  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 7:56 pm : link
it's not possible that Tuck injured his shoulder on that play, as we know he did, played afterwards and the next season getting treatment on the shoulder (like we know he did), but it was never the same and eventually taking its toll on his on-field performance permanently.

Ok. And your explanation like Arc's is that Tuck just physically broke down at 27/28 years old completely unrelated to that injury?
It's possible  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/23/2013 8:01 pm : link
but Tuck's ailments haven't been limited to just the shoulder. Some are also a bit spoiled by Strahan into thinking DL can excel into their mid 30s, and that is somehow the mold they envisioned for Tuck in Giant blue. Justin Tuck peaking from age 24 through 27/28 and then tailing off isn't uncommon for DL at all, although the tail off in his case was pretty steep in the pass rush dept. He's had injury issues his whole football life though dating back to Notre Dame.
Who would you equate him to  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:04 pm : link
that was that dominant and then became this invisible without an obvious major injury or drug suspension (like a Shawne Merriman) at 27/28.
He could have re-aggravated it at a billion different points.  
arcarsenal : 9/23/2013 8:05 pm : link
It could have happened in 2011... no one knows. You're asking a question that no one is going to be able to answer definitively. But Tuck has always been a guy who has been dinged up. It didn't start in 2009. Things pile up and players slow down. I never suggested it had to be a sudden, overnight thing.
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:07 pm : link
if you say so.

I remember him injuring that shoulder on that play and since that time, I remember hearing about him on the injury report with the shoulder and receiving treatment on the shoulder.

I don't remember any other injuries of this nature reported other than the shoulder for Tuck.

but I'm sure I don't remember all of them.

Maybe it's coincidental, maybe I'm just not remembering all of them, just not sure why it's an outlandish question.
MarshallOnMontana : 9/23/2013 8:09 pm : link
A lot of guys, especially the freak athlete specimen types like Tuck was. One that immediately jumps to mind is Jevon Kearse but I could list a lot more if i gave it thought. Kearse looked like the next coming out of the gates, slowed mightily and was underachieving on a massive contract for the Eagles even before he blew his ACL in 06 (against us). He peaked at about 25
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:11 pm : link
is a good example but way before the ACL he broke his foot and missed almost the entire season, like his 3rd or 4th year and his drop off - at least didn't seem as pronounced though he did seem to be somewhat oft-injured after the broken foot.

Kearse foot injury was not major  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/23/2013 8:14 pm : link
he returned the same season, it took time to heal but when the bone healed he was fine. Philly had no reservations offering him a huge contract 2 years removed from it. If we want to go back we could talk about Tucks ACL or his Lis franc that occurred before he ever broke out as a player, more serious injuries than Kearse had in 02. Theres a lot of guys like this on the DL who peak in their late 20s, it is more common than Strahans longevity is
For a guy whos career has seemingly been derailed due to  
j_rud : 9/23/2013 8:16 pm : link
a plethora of nagging injuries how can you not wonder if this contributed? I think its a stretch to point to it as the straw that broke the camels back but did it play a part? Sure, of course, how could it not. Tuck is someone who has been rendered largely ineffective due to the cumulative effect of numerous injuries. Flozell's antics directly lead to one of those injuries. Overall cause of the decline? Nah. Contributing factor? Sure.

And as someone who deals with significant pain on a pretty much daily basis (I have degenerative disk disease in my back, a legacy from 10 years of football and 6 more of rugby, not to mention my time as an infantryman and was recently told that at 30 I have the lower back of a 60 year old), i gotta say, I can empathize with some of the things he's talked about as far as getting his head on straight. Regardless of what you do or how much you are paid it's difficult to go through your daily existence in near constant pain. It's depressing, it's miserable, and it often makes it difficult to simply enjoy life, let alone your profession.

I feel for Tuck, he along with Kevin Boss and Sam Madison have become some of my favorite Giants of all time over the past 8 years or so. But I said it in March and I stick to it now: it was time to part ways.
I think Adams gets a raw deal in this here though  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/23/2013 8:22 pm : link
even dating back to the night it happened, the over the top crushing of him as this willfull killer of Tucks season and/or potential career. He tripped him when Tuck had a step on him and could have hit his QB. Tripping penalties happen every week in the NFL. Our own o line has been guilty before. Sucks tuck Fell that way, unfortunate occurrence. But thats what it was. An unfortunate incident. Adams was indeed heavily penalized throughout his career (the overwhelming majority being false starts as he was literally deaf in one ear) but it was far form one of the dirtiest things ive ever seen.
If he didn't push tuck from behind  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:27 pm : link
after this incident I think people would just view it exactly as you say MoM, but when looking at the entire body of work and listening to Tuck's comments about Flozell afterwards it seems like there was some bad blood there.

Tuck called Flozell a dirt bag, a coward and said the play was bush league (both of them).

Otherwise I didn't comment on him, the titles of my links (dirt bag) were quotes from Tuck.
MarshallOnMontana : 9/23/2013 8:30 pm : link
i wasnt talking about you, i was talking about a billion posts since that night

And even if there is bad blood, Adams tripped him there to save Romo from a hit, clear as day. Nothing more, nothing less. If he was out to intentionally hurt Justin Tuck, he could go about more effectively than hoping he falls at a certain angle off a trip. Sucks that it happened, but its a play that literally happens every week
It was Tuck's most significant injury...  
Pete in CO : 9/23/2013 8:32 pm : link
...but Father Time catches everyone. What was most insulting to me was the seemingly insignificant fine issued by the NFL to Flozell Adams after that play. Can't remember the amount, but I remember the outrage on this board...
I assume his fine was  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/23/2013 8:38 pm : link
in line with the fines the other 40 guys since him got for the same penalty. The idea to penalize him more because Tuck unfortunately got hurt isn't really fair to me. Antrelle Rolle got called for a tripping in the open field a couple years ago, if the guy unfortunately landed wrong and hurt his shoulder should Rolle have been penalized more?
Seems like that penalty is on the decline  
pjcas18 : 9/23/2013 8:43 pm : link
tripping penalties by year since 2009:

2009: 20
2010: 10
2011: 8
2012: 6
2013 1 through 3 weeks

I wonder why. Coincidence?
I dont know  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/23/2013 8:49 pm : link
perhaps more are being classified as leg whips and 15 yard personal fouls now than before.
IMO it's playing so much inside  
David in LA : 9/23/2013 9:40 pm : link
that took a toll on Tuck's physical health.
Pete in CO : 9/23/2013 10:10 pm : link
Maybe the fine was commensurate to the action. I can't remember. But if you injure an opponent within the rules of engagement, that's football. But if it occurs outside those bounds, maybe the fine does/doesn't change but the perception of the player does.
I have seen Rolle trip a player before, and guessed he was going to hear from Goodell. But I'm sure anyone who commits penalties like that will not earn great respect from other NFL players.
guy had an excellent year after that injury  
chris r : 9/24/2013 12:03 am : link
Adams did not get a bad rap here  
Sneakers O'toole : 9/24/2013 12:09 am : link
he was a dirty player. He was dirty before that week, he was dirty after that week.
tuck admitted his heart was not in football  
napoleon : 9/24/2013 6:56 am : link
During the regular season of the last super bowl run. I have not seen much to convince me otherwise.
SanFranGiantsFan : 9/24/2013 7:32 am : link
It didn't help. But as been stated numerous times on this thread, Tuck's injury problems date back to South Bend. Being an ND fan, I knew that when we drafted him.

He's probably near the end now. A very good career that could have been better had injuries not hampered him @ times.
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