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Giants salary cap update after John Conner signing

Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 9:56 am
I wrote about it here. Click below.

Giants salary cap update after John Conner signing - Wed., September 25, 2013 - ( New Window )
Giants are going through a transition  
PEEJ : 9/26/2013 10:04 am : link
period. This year and next will be a challenge to get some new blood to replace older, over-paid players. A lot of familiar faces will be gone.
.  
Danny Kanell : 9/26/2013 10:04 am : link
I'll wait for Ralph, thanks.

-mort
Giants will have plenty of salary  
Simms11 : 9/26/2013 10:11 am : link
cap room next year, as they get some of these large aging vets off the team. They should be capable of retooling fairly well IMHO, if JR pulls the right strings, of course.
What's  
AcidTest : 9/26/2013 10:13 am : link
worse, our OL or our cap management? $60K under the cap? Last in the league in cap space? Really amateurish by Reese.
They spend to the cap.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/26/2013 10:16 am : link
What's wrong with that?

I don't really see the point in carrying 16m in cap space into October like some teams do. What is that doing for you?
...  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 10:17 am : link
AcidTest - That's not the issue  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 10:19 am : link
TTH is correct. The issue is that the guys they invested in on the O-Line aren't getting it done due to decline in play due to injury.
The problem is spending to the cap  
vibe4giants : 9/26/2013 10:26 am : link
when you don't get good value for your money. So the point doesn't appear too far off.
Teams should try to spend to near  
mrvax : 9/26/2013 10:32 am : link
cap limit to maximize the talent pool. A little $2-3 M breathing room for emergencies would be nice though.
Next year will be different  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 10:34 am : link
I'm going to post something about that in the next couple of days. There will be significant change next season. My estimate now is that they'll have about $15 to $20 million bucks in cap space to play with after factoring in the draft, RFAs, some requisite cuts (Snee & Rolle), Eli's extension, and the re-signing of free agents (i.e., Nicks & maybe L. Joseph).
The cuts seem pretty obvious  
PEEJ : 9/26/2013 10:37 am : link
the bigger problem is finding better replacements
They're not getting value now  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/26/2013 10:40 am : link
but nobody had a problem paying Snee when he got his money. He was worth it then and projected to be worth it for a long, long time.


Only a fortune teller would've forseen that his career would be all but over so early with these injuries. Great offensive linemen with a track record like Snee usually play into their mid 30s before disappearing. Snee literally fell apart at the seams.

Same with Tuck.
mrvax - They've got an agreement with Snee and Weatherford to help  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 10:46 am : link
them if the need arises I'm sure. They can help them, as I mentioned to the tune of $1,743,750. Snee can give them up to $1,680,000 more in extra cap space & Weatherford can give them up to as much as an extra $63,750. They'll only go there if they absolutely need to, which is smart. This is the way to avoid unnecessary dead money in future years. It's an intelligent quantitative approach to cap management. The issue is not quantitative so much, as it is qualitative, as vibeforgiants made an excellent point regarding.

P.S. The Steelers employ a cap management approach that is pretty similar to that of the Giants. They were hit extremely hard in week 1 by the injury bug. That necessitated further restructuring on their part to account for the necessary roster moves that had to be made as a result of the players that went to IR after week 1 (i.e., Pouncey, their All-Pro Center, Maurkice Pouncey, hurt his ACL, and they turned around and signed FA Fernando Velasco to take his place for the year).
TTH  
Buck Dharma : 9/26/2013 10:47 am : link
Disagree about Tuck, there were plenty of lay people like myself on BBI who realized Tuck's level of play had fallen off dramatically, just like Diehl.
PEEJ - exactly  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 10:47 am : link
.
TTH, bingo..  
Big Blue '56 : 9/26/2013 10:47 am : link
.
TTH  
Danny Kanell : 9/26/2013 10:53 am : link
I dont think many people are/were complaining about the origin of Snee's deal. I think people have more of an issue with having him restructure when the decline was already obvious, causing more damage down the road when it was already apparent he'd fallen off a cliff.
Each team has a designated core of players that they turn to when  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 10:56 am : link
they need additional cap room. Snee is that guy for the Giants. He pitches in almost every year, which is why his cap number is so high towards the end of the contract. If his skill level hadn't declined due to injury, they'd probably extend him after the season, but that will not be the case as most can surmise based on his performance (or lack thereof).
^^^^^^^^^^  
vibe4giants : 9/26/2013 10:57 am : link
Yes. Certainly some bad luck has come into play (though, ironically, people need to be careful when they say the Giants have been the beneficiary of good luck). But there have also been bad decisions made that have left the team constrained. As most of us know, it's usually a good idea to leave ourselves some money in the budget just in case things don't go as planned. Which they often don't.
30 is a special age in the NFL  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 11:02 am : link
That's when a team with a franchise QB can either fall into the cap toilet bowl or teeter around the precipice. Teams need to be very careful about judging the contracts of players at that age when they're about to expire, except for QBs and Specialists.

The draft takes on an added value at that point because it is the only way to bring ion young, cost controlled, cheap labor. Look at Green Bay. They have so much room because of the fact that they've got one of the youngest rosters in the entire NFL. the Giants need to get back to investing cap space correctly into good player in areas of need via the draft mostly, and free agency. The trenches and LB are two areas that stand out as we all know.
They've got extra money from Snee if they need it during the regular  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 11:06 am : link
season the same goes for Weatherford on a much smaller scale. I call it "toilet bowl salary cap management": they only go to it if they need it.
Tuck got his money just after SB42, didn't he?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/26/2013 11:14 am : link
At that time he looked like Strahan's heir.
Snee's present value  
fkap : 9/26/2013 11:18 am : link
leaving aside for the moment that he's not producing much of any value, a large part of the reason he's so big a cap hit is because we kept restructuring to make cap room in years past. That simply borrowed from today to pay for yesterday, and in restructuring again this year, they're borrowing from tomorrow to pay for today.

Reese is not only spending up to the cap limit, he's also borrowing from future years cap. We were reasonably sane this year in the borrowing, but if I recall correctly, he really went to town the last year or two.
Tuck  
Buck Dharma : 9/26/2013 11:19 am : link
should have been released after last season. This is the last year of his contract and he's making $4M.
Regarding Snee  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/26/2013 11:27 am : link
I don't think many of us were willing to safely say he was done. Was the decline that obvious?

Just speaking for myself, I thought he'd be better after getting his hip surgery. I was willing to believe that's why he took a step back last year. I don't remember him being a bad player in 2010.
See Patriots handbook  
I Love Clams Casino : 9/26/2013 11:38 am : link
on "Letting Go of Players at the Right Time"
Rolle should and probably will be  
kmed : 9/26/2013 11:55 am : link
extended to lower his hit . They'll probably back load it and give him a small bonus so they can move on after a few years if the need arises.
That is if Rolle is willing,  
kmed : 9/26/2013 11:57 am : link
if not, they'll probably move on.
First guess is rolle leaves at the end of the year.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/26/2013 12:02 pm : link
And with so much work to do, they don't need his high price on the books. He doesn't hit me as a discount guy.

He never seemed to fit in here aside from the light coming on in '11 and I doubt he gets along well with the coaches other than Merritt. He probably would be happiest in a team with a looser environment.

He's a great guy, tireless fighter, I want 11 guys with his mindset and desire.
Everyone is a  
TomTom : 9/26/2013 1:02 pm : link
football genius with this stuff. Just watch the games and hope the Giants win.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
vibe4giants : 9/26/2013 1:15 pm : link
Misunderstands the raison d'Ítre for this and similar boards.
NYG always spends within range of the cap ceiling  
JonC : 9/26/2013 1:18 pm : link
and this season has gotten particularly tight because they're taking their cap medicine as much as they can.

When you look at this roster and its cap hits, there are very few candidates to look at for extensions, imo. Take your medicine, clear the space for next season, and continue the rebuild/transition movement.
Vibe  
TomTom : 9/26/2013 1:25 pm : link
not true, I'm sick of hearing about how everyone knows what the Giants should do all week. I try to trust the front office and think they are better at their job than I would be.
Tom, there only a few deluded souls on here  
vibe4giants : 9/26/2013 1:34 pm : link
that actually think they know better. And, yes, it/they can get exhausting. Particularly when the team is playing like shit.

But for the most part here, we're doing what fans do...killing some time talking about our team. BBI is bad place to come if you don't want to see that. Or maybe you just want to click the NFT button. (I don't mean this in any way or tone. It's just a fact. Telling people to shut up and wait for the game runs in complete contrast to why the board exists.)
*who* actually think....  
vibe4giants : 9/26/2013 1:35 pm : link
...
Unless I am missing something,  
giantsfour : 9/26/2013 1:38 pm : link
I do not understand why teams use the "toilet bowl" approach. We can restructure Snee and moved $1.6 million into next year. If we never used that money, then next year will have $1.6 more of dead money but we will also have $1.6 million more of carryover. That seems to be a wash.
Optimus  
GeoMan999 : 9/26/2013 1:45 pm : link
I always love and appreciate your analysis. With that said, I hate when you and others refer to getting rid of Antrel Rolle. He is our biggest leader on defense. So whenever you feel the need to talk about cuts, I believe you should be discussing a Restructure when it comes to Antrel. We can have the most cap space in the world, but if you don't have any leaders, you don't have anything.
Restructuring would be ideal  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/26/2013 1:47 pm : link
but that requires Rolle to want to do it, which he hasn't wanted to do even when things were good.
Rolle's past comments  
JonC : 9/26/2013 1:48 pm : link
indicate he won't consider restructuring (paycut), and he's only got a few prime earning years left.
vibe nailed what I wanted to say regarding TomTom- thank you  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 4:00 pm : link
.
GeoMan - I hear you loud and clear, believe me, I do  
Optimus-NY : 9/26/2013 4:14 pm : link
The fan side of me hates that too, but I'm just looking at it from a cold-hearted business standpoint. When I really got into the cap analysis stuff I started to separate myself from wants and desires. Rolle is a guy who I love because f his mental and physical toughness. Guy is a warrior. I really don't want to get rid of him.

Let me just put it this way: if you ever watched wrestling, one of the most entertaining heels ever in the WWF/WWE is Ted DiBiase's "Million Dollar Man." I knew it was fake, but that dude taught me a lesson as a young'n: everyone has a price. That whole everyone has a price is exactly what applies here, but from the limitation end from the Giants' standpoint if what they feel is too much for Rolle.

You have to do a cost-benefit analysis and see what the team can gain from retaining a player with a high cap number past the age of 30 (Rolle will turn 31 on December 16th). I've asked Jason Fitzgerald, who I have a ton of respect for about the Giants are most likely going to do with Snee and Rolle going forward, and the answer that came back this summer was the same as what I'm saying now: they'll most likely be gone in 2014 at their current cap prices.

The difference between the two is that I think Snee is done (can't rely on him due to his injuries; I bet he retires if he's hurt). Rolle, on the other hand, always plays and still has the ability to have an impact on the field, as well as off of it. His price though is what needs to be changed. If he agrees to a lower cap number, then great, but I doubt that happens based on his previous contractual history here (he refuses to have his contract touched or restructured on any way, shape, or form---which is his prerogative.

It won't stop the Giants form doing what they need to do though in their attempt to reshape the roster going forward. It's time to look 2 to 3 years down the road when Trel will be 33 or 34, not when he's 32. He'll be a lot different then. Not every player is London Fletcher or Darrell Green. It's a delicate balancing act, and you have to separate any and all kinds of sentimentality wen making these decisions.
Let Rolle walk, trade Nicks, cut Blackburn and Boley and Bradshaw.  
Reese's Pieces : 9/26/2013 8:19 pm : link
Replace them with non-entities. And this is what you get: a mediocre team looking at a year or two of rebuilding.

I didn't include Osi, although he was a valuable playmaker, cause I believe the Giants expected JPP to replace him.
Rolle won't take a cut,  
kmed : 9/27/2013 6:25 pm : link
but you can extend him and backload it so his cap number goes down drastically. Eventually you will have to pay the piper, but they can certainly be creative with how they structure the deal. They can easily lower his cap number by 4 million by adding 4 years taking him to his age 35 season.
Geoman - With espect, you don't undestand what a restructure is  
Optimus-NY : 9/28/2013 3:54 pm : link
You can't restructure Rolle after this year because 2014 is the last year of his deal. An extension, a pay cut, or a flat out release are the only options to clear out cap room from his contract next season.
kmed - There's no point in doing that  
Optimus-NY : 9/28/2013 5:24 pm : link
That's not sound cap management. There will be other players at Safety on the market this off-season who are entering their prime years who can fill Rolle's cap slot without the dead money in future years.
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