Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

My view on the Giants right now...

VPD72 : 10/1/2013 6:08 pm
This is strictly a personal opinion and for all intents and purposes is a huge rant. Share your feelings as well.

Reese's poor drafting has really hurt the team.

For all the credit Reese gets for putting together the teams that won he deserves most, if not all, the blame for this debacle so far. His drafts have been terrible but everyone turns a blind eye to them. He has had some small success with them but let's not forget the Marvin Austin, Jerrel Jernigan, Mitch Petrus, Matt Dodge, Ramses Barden, Clint Sintim, Travis Beckum and etc. picks in the recent years that were total misses. He also relies too much on patch work players and ignores key positions every year in free agency. LB has been a glaring need for years. OL is weak and has no real strength. Sorry Reese, but your "magic" is fading fast.

There are glaring holes everywhere. The offensive line is weak and old, the DL is old and under achieving, the LB's outside of Paysinger are fringe players that wouldn't be special teamer's else where.

I can't say I don't appreciate what Reese did for us in the beginning of his tenure, but Accorsi was the one who pulled the trigger to land Manning, outside of the first draft class Reese had he has whiffed a lot and his FA signings have been bust as well.

Here's hoping this coming draft he finally addresses serious needs instead of BPA that hasn't really worked out lately.

/rant
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Why the hate for VPD on this ?  
Mike in Marin : 10/1/2013 7:42 pm : link
I think he has made some good points. We seem very talent-less all of a sudden. That is a fair statement. I am not suggesting Reese does not walk on water for me for the past, but that is the past.
They're not reverting to the 90s.  
Red Dog : 10/1/2013 7:43 pm : link
They are reverting to the late 60s and the 70s. They stink at everything - offense, defense, and special teams. They can't hardly even win a coin toss.

This is the least competitive GIANTS team since the "fifteen years of lousy football."

Some of the teams from that era would kick the ass of this lousy team. Arsparger's teams played defense with a vengeance.

Now the GIANTS can't even tackle. Or block.
Pioli's  
Mike in Marin : 10/1/2013 7:43 pm : link
looking pretty damn good lately, too.
Yes we could compete every year  
VPD72 : 10/1/2013 7:45 pm : link
But that's if the stars aligned for us. I never expected to go 0-4 to start the season. I felt at worst we would be 2-2.

But when you actually take the end of last season into consideration and this season thus far and look at the roster it doesn't scream promise.

I knew our OL would be our biggest weakness. I never imagined it would be this bad when Eli took the fewest sacks last season.

I also knew our LB's are garbage, but I thought for sure our DL would create the pressure on the QB to alleviate the stress on them. I also had hopes that Rolle and Brown would be a good duo in back end of the defense, unfortunately Brown is hurt.

Webster has been on a decline for a few years and TT has played well and stayed healthy so far.

The only thing I was sure about was that our division was real weak and we could possibly exploit it.

If we lose to the Eagles @ home then you can call it a season.
I don't agree but I understand the criticism of Reese  
NYG in NC : 10/1/2013 7:50 pm : link
this article from years back hits on the main reason we are struggling.
Link - ( New Window )
Reese didn't go from being universally acclaimed as one of the best  
Giantgator : 10/1/2013 7:51 pm : link
GMs in the game to strung out on stupid pills.

GM is one of the biggest factors in a team's success, but not the only one. Injuries, schedule, a hot quarterback, getting healthy for the playoffs, schemes, and many other things contribute. And all that can be laid to waste by an unlucky bounce.
no one in the organization is above  
Mike in Marin : 10/1/2013 8:00 pm : link
harsh criticism for the product that is currently "playing" on the field.

Some of the projects and reaches that Reese has made really make me wonder if he has been too cute for his own good. There is no doubt that he has done a great job on many picks, especially on receivers and DL/CB, though look how many high draft picks he has used on those.
2 SBs in 8 yrs  
Spock : 10/1/2013 8:07 pm : link
Nuff said.

exactly  
VPD72 : 10/1/2013 8:07 pm : link
Which was my point. Reese is in charge of personnel.

How many years are we going to go and watch him draft guys like Philip Dillard, Greg Jones, Travis Beckum, Barden, Sinorice Moss, Gerris Wilkerson.

For every hit there are like 3 or 4 misses at a clip.

2011 alone: Marvin Austin, Jernigan (he's on his way out), Greg Jones (noted above), Da'Rel Scott (cut today), Tyler Sash.

5 busts in one year. That is almost a Cowboys draft class.
spock  
VPD72 : 10/1/2013 8:09 pm : link
As stated before that had more to do with Eli getting hot at the right time (Not a product of Reese but Accorsi) and the defense playing really well.

How many years of 6-2 have we seen only to crumble in the second half? If they continue this season playing this poorly we can be without the playoffs 5 out of the past 6 years.

Reese deserves the credit but also deserves the blame.
VP, Without Bradshaw's 88yd run in Buffalo and an  
NYG in NC : 10/1/2013 8:17 pm : link
amazing effort by Cruz to turn a 10 yd pass into a 99 yd TD we likely don't even make the playoffs in those years.
That is Reese's one true home run  
VPD72 : 10/1/2013 8:26 pm : link
Victor Cruz.
+1  
fred44 : 10/1/2013 8:26 pm : link
VP, Without Bradshaw's 88yd run in Buffalo and an
NYG in NC : 8:17 pm : link
amazing effort by Cruz to turn a 10 yd pass into a 99 yd TD we likely don't even make the playoffs in those years
era is over  
540NYFAN : 10/1/2013 8:33 pm : link
Make way for the chiefs seahawks and broncos
Just saw this on another board - NYG drafts from 2008-2011  
VPD72 : 10/1/2013 8:37 pm : link
2011

Round Selection Player Position College

1 19 Prince Amukamara CB Nebraska - starting to turn it on
2 52 Marvin Austin DT North Carolina - LOL CUT
3 83 Jerrel Jernigan WR Troy - LOL
4 117 James Brewer OT Indiana - Too raw
6 185 Greg Jones LB Michigan State -LOL CUT
198 [b] Tyler Sash S Iowa - LOL CUT
202 [b] Jacquian Williams LB South Florida - decent back up
7 221 Da'Rel Scott RB Maryland - LOL CUT

2010

1 15 Jason Pierre-Paul Defensive End South Florida - looks hurt still
2 46 Linval Joseph Defensive Tackle East Carolina - solid player
4 115 Phillip Dillard Linebacker Nebraska - LOL WHO?
5 147 Mitch Petrus Offensive Guard Arkansas - LOL
6 184 Adrian Tracy Linebacker William & Mary - Practice squad all-pro
7 221 Matt Dodge Punter East Carolina - LMAO

2009

1 29 Hakeem Nicks Wide Receiver North Carolina - Hasn't been himself
2 45 Clint Sintim Linebacker Virginia - LOL trash
60 William Beatty Offensive Tackle Connecticut - solid/decent
3 85 Ramses Barden Wide Receiver Cal Poly-S.L.O. - LOL SOFT
100 Travis Beckum Tight End Wisconsin - LOL
4 129 Andre Brown Running Back North Carolina State - Cut once, came back and injury prone
5 151 Rhett Bomar Quarterback Sam Houston State -LMAO
6 200 DeAndre Wright Cornerback New Mexico - LOL WHO?
7 238 Stoney Woodson Cornerback South Carolina - LOL WHO?

2008

1 31 Kenny Phillips Safety Miami (Fla.) - Could have been special - too injury prone
2 63 Terrell Thomas Cornerback USC - see above
3 95 Mario Manningham Wide receiver Michigan - solid player, now injury prone
4 123 Bryan Kehl Outside Linebacker BYU - LOL
5 165 Jonathan Goff Linebacker Vanderbilt - Had one decent year but was lucky to be a special teamer
6 198 Andre' Woodson Quarterback Kentucky -LMAO
199 Robert Henderson Defensive End Southern Miss - WHO?
He's drafts have sucked  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 10/1/2013 8:41 pm : link
They are all a crap shoot and you don't know who is going to pan out ... But our higher round picks have been the issue .. Rounds 1-4 awful .., rounds 5-7 you are lucky ... With all the underclass man coming out the drafts just aren't as deep as they used to be..

With OL and LB a huge issue WTF did we draft a QB in the 4th round ???

Too many projects drafted in the higher rounds when these guys would have been available later ...

I've said enough ..

VPD  
Spock : 10/1/2013 8:58 pm : link
Is bad drafting Reese's fault?
Spock  
VPD72 : 10/1/2013 9:00 pm : link
Was that a serious question?
Too many WRs  
oldutican : 10/1/2013 10:02 pm : link
2006: 2nd & 3rd for Moss
2007: Smith 2nd
2008: Manningham 3rd
2009: Nicks 1st, Barden 3rd & 5th
2010: None
2011: Jernigan 3rd
2012: Randle 2nd
2013: None
That's 8 picks in first 3 rounds on WRs over 7 years, plus a 5th. Then throw in the 4th on Beckum who was mkore WR than TE.
I know there are good players in there, and Smith was a shame. But for me that is just too many picks getting Eli receivers. Over same time, only 3 picks were used on O-line in first 3 rounds and one on a LB (Sintim.)
never heard this opinion before  
Dylan fan : 10/1/2013 10:05 pm : link
Thanks for coming up with this novel idea. It's really amazing that there haven't been any other threads like this.
VPD72 - ad hominem attacks?  
jcn56 : 10/1/2013 10:08 pm : link
I said I was surprised a Giants fan wouldn't know how to spell Baas, seeing as the guy touches the ball on every offensive play and he's been putrid lately. Also calls to question your attention to detail.

You haven't successfully made any argument against Reese - you've posted his drafts (which you "pulled from another board" - as if you can't hit about 100 sites to quickly get our draft, this one included) and bitched about the results.

Bottom line - if we finish the year with a losing record, this is the first year during Reese's tenure that we'll have done so. Some high praise for other GMs on this board, like Ozzie Newsome (who's an excellent GM) - but by any measure, Reese has done better, whether it's record or SB appearances/victories.
Dylan  
VPD72 : 10/1/2013 10:10 pm : link
Thanks for contributing, your post will go right into the garbage pile.
Spock....  
damdevs : 10/1/2013 10:17 pm : link
when you are running a company/department and shit falls apart then usually the top guy, Reese, is the one that usually gets run out. That's reality brother!

However, I will say this, our scouting department hasn't done Reese any favors. It goes hand in hand. The reality is no matter how you slice it he has done a pretty poor job. The results or lack there of have spoken for themsleves.

And I like the guy and really respect him...but I call it like I see it and it is was it is.
jcn56  
VPD72 : 10/1/2013 10:24 pm : link
I have given my opinion as to why he hasn't been what he is cracked up to be.

That draft history is putrid. He gets such high regard as an excellent talent evaluator when he has missed on a lot of his picks. Which was my point that all these whiffs have crippled the Giants right now to the point that they have zero depth and zero talent in certain areas of the team.

He still gets a pass for it based on the 2007 draft (which was an amazing draft class) and hasn't really done much since then.

And again MY BAD I MISSPELLED A GARBAGE CENTERS NAME. If that's what you are going to nitpick on then maybe you need to prove how it isn't an ad hominem attack, it's irrelevant to the argument. Maybe you should instead bring forth some evidence to dispute the fact that Reese has been drafting like crap since 2008. That he isn't and shouldn't be held in such high regard.

As others have said those Super Bowl years have a lot more to do with Eli clicking and the stars aligning at the precise moment.

Not providing proper personnel depth (VIA the draft). Keeping that trash Gilbride as OC.

I can understand giving him a pass with the 2 rings. But if this team stays like this the rest of this season and next then whose fault is it?
jcn56....  
damdevs : 10/1/2013 10:28 pm : link
what you fail to realize is that the depth of this roster is souley on the GM of this team. He owns that! That being said our depth or lack there of is TERRIBLE.

We have probably the worst depth in the NFL at the OL, LB, RB and you can probably throw in there the Safety position too.

So everyone who wants to bury their head in the sand and ignor reality please feel free to do so. But at the end of the day what you're looking at is reality....just say'n it is what it is and it's hard to argue with reality!
I'm not sure if it's JR's talent recognition skills...  
buljos : 10/1/2013 10:36 pm : link
or his "value over need" strategy that I for one never entirely appreciated or adequately understood. Looking at the draft picks laid out above, it's not extremely impressive top to bottom first through fourth rounds. But is that because he attempted to pick value regardless of Giants need, and now the Giants desperately need blocking but that's not where JR has determined the value was?
Mostly agree with the OP  
Marty866b : 10/1/2013 10:36 pm : link
This team lacks talent at just about every position and that is due to poor drafting, the mismanagement of the salary cap, and some poor free agent decisions. As I have stated here before, Coughlin is a much better football coach then Reese is a GM. Let's see what he does to straighten this mess out.
Reese has had some bad luck with injuries.  
Reese's Pieces : 10/2/2013 1:12 am : link
The 2008 draft was great plucking out Phillips and Thomas with the last picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds. Should have been two pro-bowlers anchoring the secondary for years.

And JPP at the end of 2011 looked like one of the best picks of the century. I don't know what's going on with him but in a few more losing weeks if his back isn't 100% and there is a danger of him hurting himself then they might as well IR him and play the rookie.

I thought that the Giants reached for Pugh. Even after they drafted him no one was talking about him being a great talent with Pro Bowls in his future. He was solid, reliable, a leader type.

And, in hindsight, drafting a RB was not a good idea in 2012. With the short careers of running backs, you have to have the blockers in place first.
Before the  
JoefromPa : 10/2/2013 8:51 am : link
"I want what I want and I want it now" mentality beacme the norm is this country...............past success bought a little more patience and respect for a job well done.

It is that mentality that is behind the "Eli is an elite quarterack, but only until he screws up school of thought.
Anybody  
Jerry in DC : 10/2/2013 9:02 am : link
describing these drafts as horrible, putrid or any word along those lines really doesn't understand the draft or the NFL.
I don't think  
I Love Clams Casino : 10/2/2013 9:04 am : link
you can lay Petrus, Sintim and Austin at the feet of Reese.

Petrus fell off a cliff to....to...what, be a rapper or something? We was a nasty dude, and if he didn't just give up, the guy would be what Davis Wilson needs right now.

Austin's a bit of a head case. Sometimes teams are just bad fits. He'll excel elsewhere

And Sintim, we all know about that
Draft  
stretch234 : 10/2/2013 10:23 am : link
The expectation of draft pick success on here is mind boggling. History tells you that a player in the 3rd round is 50-50 to become a starter. 4th and on there is a 66% chance the player does not make the team.

How the hell do you call 4th -7th round picks busts.

Sintim was not a good pick due to position in college. You understand the Austin gamble. Beckum was a bad pick because he was beaten up in college before the draft. Barden was drafted for a specific purpose, which the coaches never used him in.

There were 15 LB taken after Dillard: There are 3 currently in the NFL - 1 is a starter. 9 of those were out of NFL after 2012, 4 out after 2011 and 1 in 2010. Only 1 of these players had more than 25 career tackles - the draft is a gamble

he has been GM for 7 drafts here in NY - What 1st round player has he missed on. He has been good on 2's (4 out 6) not counting Randle and Hankins.

You need to get lucky late in the draft. Go look back at the available players and see how many don't make it.

Reese has negatives, but the draft is not 1 of them.
I still haven't seen anything about who you would replace Reese with..  
Big_Score : 10/2/2013 8:35 pm : link
...given the available options. Wonderful, fire him if you want (not that you can). Of the available options, who do you replace him with that you expect to get better results from? Simple question.
potential GM's  
VPD72 : 10/2/2013 9:59 pm : link
if they hire within it would be Marc Ross.

if they look outside of the organization they could look at young up and comers like Nick Caserio or Eric Decosta.

You also never know who is waiting in the wings for an opportunity to run the Giants who is currently with a team.

comparisons  
Dylan fan : 10/2/2013 10:13 pm : link
Since the draft doesn't happen in a vacuum & there are 31 other GMs who compete for the same pool of players as Reese, how about if the Reese bashers would bother to provide evidence that Reese is so much worse than a few, several, many or all the other GMs since 2007. Pick them randomly by throwing darts at at their names for all I care but I'll help: start with the Raiders, Lions, Jaguars, Browns, Chiefs, Skins, Bills, Rams & according to the link below, Cowboys, Colts, Saints & Bears. Pick 2 GMs per Reese basher & go through each draft just as you did w/ Reese. I guarantee that NOBODY will do that. Much easier to just say Reese sucks.
5 worst drafting teams since 2008 - ( New Window )
bump  
Dylan fan : 10/4/2013 12:04 am : link
What a shock that not one of the Reese bashers responded to my last post.
Marc Ross and Jerry Reese..  
Big_Score : 10/5/2013 7:26 am : link
work very closely together and many of Reese's drafting decisions reflect Ross' recommendations. Not sure how you would rationalize firing Reese and replacing him with Ross. I personally think Ross will be a good GM for some team, someday, but don't see it happening with the Giants unless Reese falls off a cliff.

As for the other candidates, I asked who would you hire that you would expect to get better results from? That's how decisions like this are made in the real world. If you are making the decision, who would you hire given the options? Which of the up and comers you mentioned have a record that would sway a decision maker to gamble that they will have a better record than Reese on this team? "You never know who is waiting in the wings" means you are willing to wait until (possibly) an unidentified star falls into the pool. But your thread implies you think it needs to happen now or soon. You want it done. If it were your decision, who would you pick at this time?
I may be wrong  
VPD72 : 10/5/2013 5:06 pm : link
But I don't believe I ever outright said that Reese needs to be fired. I complimented him on his early success with the team in 2007.

I also mentioned that hopefully he turns it around this off season, pretty much implying that I don't think he will be let go right now. I do feel that he should say something and address the media/fans one way or another.

Would I be sad to see him go? No. But I do believe he needs to change his whole outlook on the team and change his stance on drafting and FA's at the least if he is still our GM.

Also just because Ross works closely with Reese doesn't mean he will follow step for step what Reese does. This team can still compete with the right pieces in place. We have a QB, we have WR's and we have a very talented albeit raw RB. But if we happen to get a top 5 pick this season we can very easily right the ship and Reese can do a lot to redeem himself this off season.

We are a few players away from being a very good football team again.
I won't bother placing blame ... but one thing is clear ...  
baadbill : 10/5/2013 5:50 pm : link
all my life, even when the Giants were out of contention, I still loved watching every game because there was always some young player(s) that represented the hope of the future ... yet, here I am at age 61 and for the first time in my lifetime, that isn't true ... there simply aren't any young players that excite me ... this team is devoid of young talent that represents the future ... if I was an expansion franchise and granted the opportunity to simply take 53 players from any teams I wanted, there would be zero (make that ZERO) players from the Giants. In fact, if you were going to build ten new teams - top 530 players - there arguably wouldn't be many Giants included (Eli & Cruz). The absence of talent is breathtaking.
baad  
PetesHereNow : 10/5/2013 6:00 pm : link
Do David Wilson, Reuben Randle, and Prince not count?
You are what your record  
oldutican : 10/5/2013 6:11 pm : link
says you are. The Giants are 3-11 over the past 14 games.
It seems apparent they lack talent in several areas. The GM's job is to find and sign talent by whatever means. Yes, the draft and salary cap create parity, so I don't expect the Giants to be near the top every year. But when you fall this far, the GM has to take responsibility, especially since the Giants have what very few bad teams have, a quality QB.
Pete  
baadbill : 10/5/2013 6:12 pm : link
Of the three, Prince is the only one who has shown anything this year ... do I think he represents one of the top 10 corners in the league? Maybe.

Wilson? I don't think Wilson will ever represent one of the top 10 RB in the league. He is never going to be a move the chains guy. IMO, he's a Reggie Busch - not my cup of tea.

Randle has been hyped when Nicks wasn't in camp, but to be honest, the passing game has sucked despite arguably the best trio of WR in Giants history. So, I can't get myself excited by Randle or Nicks at this point.

If those three players are the sum total of what represents the foundation of the future of this team, the future doesn't hold much promise. This team doesn't have a single player who is the best at his position - arguably not a single player who is top 5 at his position.
I'm hesitant to judge anyone offensively  
PetesHereNow : 10/5/2013 6:25 pm : link
when half the time, the defense is on the quarterback or running back nearly right away. When Eli got good pass blocking, Randle had 100+ yards in Dallas on opening night.
Think people are giving up too early on him, because the line is so poor.

Same with Wilson, yes, he fumbled twice vs. Dallas, but since then, he hasn't fumbled at all. He's put up 50-60 yards per game with very limited blocking. I'm not willing to give up on him yet or judge him as not being one to watch yet.

Prince isn't getting any favors done to him by the lack of pass rush either. But he's held up well.

Nobody is as good as they look when winning, and nobody is as bad as they look when losing. A win tomorrow and a Dallas loss and it'll be a different song around here.
Pete  
baadbill : 10/5/2013 7:00 pm : link
I agree entirely. Very difficult to judge anyone when entire team playing so poorly. I loved the Randle pick and I think Nicks/Cruz/Randle is far more "powerful" a trio than Nicks/Cruz/Manningham. In fact, of any young talent on the team, I'd pick Randle and Moore as the two I'd be most excited about. Having said that, by "excitement" I mean "anticipation of possible perennial pro bowl status" - and I just don't see that potential in Randle or Moore (or Prince, although he really is impressing me).

My problem with Wilson has nothing to do with his fumbling. My immediate impression of him during pre-season last year was that he is a "home run hitter" that isn't going to consistently move the chains. Imagine two RB who both rush for 100 yards with 20 carries. RB-A has two 50 yard TD runs and 18 rushes of zero yards. RB-B has 20 rushes of exactly 5 yards a rush. Which do I want? RB-B, and it isn't even close. I think Wilson is RB-A.

Bottom line is that I just don't see any premier talent on this team. If I were building a franchise for 2014, I don't believe I would be interested in a single Giants player. Not one.
tomorrow will be interesting..  
Rsspro : 10/5/2013 7:21 pm : link
if this team plays well.. and beats the Eagles..

and the Cowboys lose to the Broncos like I fully expect them to..

optimism will flow through BBI.. as most will realize we are only 1 game out of 1st place despite starting o-4..
Rsspro  
baadbill : 10/5/2013 7:41 pm : link
Two problems with that. First, the Giants would have to win - something pretty difficult to imagine based upon the team that has shown up the first four games.

Secondly, being one game out of first place tomorrow night would merely be a reflection of the other three teams in the NFC East. It wouldn't mean the 2013 Giants are suddenly good and going to be relevant this year.
baadbill..  
Rsspro : 10/5/2013 9:15 pm : link
I wasn't stating it as a sign of the Giants being a good NFL team right now.. to be honest it definitely seem like right now our division is the NFC Least..

however I do think the Bronco's will beat the Cowboys..

and the Eagles are not a good team.. not to say we are either.. we haven't been.. to be honest we looked best week 1 when we turned the ball over 6 times and almost won..

but as I stated.. if the Giants happen to play well. and if they happen to beat this Eagles team..

I think we will see a lot of optimism starting when people realize we're only 1 back..

I'm not saying yet that will amount to anything for the 2013 season.. just that it would probably change the overall attitude on BBI.. even if only momentary..
baad  
PetesHereNow : 10/6/2013 12:48 pm : link
Agreed that Wilson is a home run hitter type back, but he can grind out yards if he gets even a little crease. I believe I saw something where he's averaging 4.1 per rush inside the tackles, and under 1.5 outside the tackles, which means that to me, our TEs (Myers and Pascoe) are not setting the edges consistently. I think Myers and Pascoe are two of our bigger disappointments from a blocking standpoint.
Pete  
baadbill : 10/6/2013 1:27 pm : link
I don't know the stats, but I suspect the Giants running game has been better inside the tackles ever since Barber left... however, I think it's hard to evaluate that this year when the running game as a whole has sucked wind...

As for Wilson's ability to grind it out, I'd love to see that, but I think that was going to be Brown's role. I wish they kept "median" stats in addition to average. I think it would be a very telling statistic.
And another meltdown  
VPD72 : 10/6/2013 4:48 pm : link
Another game of giving up 35+ points.

I can't remember the last time the Giants looked this lost and inept. Foles had a ton of time to throw, no pressure again. Offense stalled a lot after the first drive.

WTF was that call to accept the holding call and make it 3rd down instead of 4th? They got 3 points out of it although it wasn't a deciding factor in the game.

With Randle looking like a potential stud I think it is time to sell high on Nicks and get a 2nd rounder or something valuable in return. He isn't going to be resigned and this team isn't going anywhere this season. Be like the Browns and get what you can to rebuild the team. Find a team that needs a quality 1 or a very complimentary #2 and get something for him now.

0-5 and 0-2 in the division with a tough schedule and a visit to Chicago on a short week. I hate the fact the season ended so early.
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner