My view on the Giants right now...

evaluating talent is a hit-or-miss proposition. The best people do a little better than the worst, but you simply can't consistently predict which 2nd rounders will excel and which will be marginal just as you can't predict which 6th rounders will be surprises and which will be busts.

I think managing the cap is a little more scientific, and our philosophy has been to put money into offensive skill positions and pass rushers. Our discipline in this regard (Accorsi's and Reese's) has brought us two Super Bowls.

Finally, it's very hard to predict injuries. If Hynoski, Brown, JPP and Baas were healthy, the entire complexion of the team might be different.

But Reese has had A LOT of misses with his drafts lately. There are a lot more players he whiffed on that I didn't list.

JPP is clearly not 100% and if he isn't they need to shut him down for the season.

Let's be real, Bass isn't a good player. He would do very little to help this atrocious OL that has many holes.

So is the lack of quality depth which is a direct result of drafted players not panning out.

baas signing restricts them greatly

and they really are paying the price for winning 2 SB with eli. his cap hit is like 20 million. tough to have a 20 million player, injuries galore and countless misses in the draft and be competitive.

actually everyone says u need the big time QB to win. and i believe that. but how many of them won while they were getting paid the big time money. eli. Ben. Brady. rodgers. brees. Flacco. they all won SB and then got paid. and haven't won since

Some examples of GMs who've done better than Reese over the past 5-10 years?

but they all have had a ton of draft misses, as well as hits/misses in FA.

Then who do you suppose you blame for having crap drafts the past 2 seasons? We have zero depth and no quality back ups on the OL and our LB's are all patch work players.

That is a direct result of Reese. Let's stop living in the past already. it will be 5 out 6 seasons they have missed the playoffs. The 2 SB's are nice but let's call a spade a spade and realize if they don't make some serious changes then they will revert back to those mid 90's Giants and we remember how well they did.

Reese's success is bound to Eli getting hot and the defense playing well when they needed too. The season they actually went 12-4/10-6 they fizzled out hard near the end and faltered because of a lack of depth.

Reese was a great GM over the past 10 years but take the blinders off and look at the facts.

My problem is all the blame is shifted to Eli or personnel and never Reese.

Reese is not getting hammered at all for this debacle of a season when he in fact is one of the main culprits.

to maintain a 10 win talent team when you pick at the bottom of the draft every year for just about 10 years now.

On the other hand - I give him more credit for the 12 win 2008 season and the 10 win 2010 season (that had the division in its grasp with 7 minutes left) than I do the superbowl run. That '11 team .. was mediocre... credit to the players for getting hot at the right time but 95% of the time you dont even get a shot to get hot in January when you go 9-7, not to mention Eli carried us all season and in the playoffs and he was an Accorsi pick.

But anyway, as jcn said, even if you discount 2011 - still a hell of a run here. Hopefully we can rebound quickly next year like the Saints & Chargers seemingly have this year -- as long as you have the QB, the 'rebuild' shouldnt take all that long.

at the last two drafts and saying that they haven't hit paydirt, then you don't know enough about the draft to merit continuing the conversation. The draft fills the team strategically, you don't expect each pick to return immediately.

And even then - I don't think anyone considered Wilson, Randle, Hosley to name a few - as reaches or stretches. They've all performed well in spots to justify their selections.

You want to say he neglected the OL? Fine, but it's hard to imagine Snee falling off a cliff the way he has. Baas (hard to believe a Giants fan who watches games spells that name wrong) - was a bad FA signing and ultimately on Reese, but he's more the remit of the director of pro personnel who has since moved on to Carolina.

Whoa sorry I misspelled Baas. If the dude could actually stay on the field it wouldn't be an issue as to whether I can spell his name right or wrong. Your arguments have become very childish when you start grasping for ad hominem retorts.

I can't judge this years draft because that's foolish. I will judge the 8 other drafts he has gone through though.

Again, take the blinders off because Reese isn't as grand as everyone is making him out to be when 11' was due to Manning getting hot and 07' was the defense clicking at the right moment.

It's not as if those years they won they were dominant. In fact - in 11' they had to win 3 out of the last 4 to even qualify for the playoffs after starting 6-2. Those second half blues are a common occurrence aren't they?

Don't start trying to be sly and insinuate I don't follow the team. I have been a die hard fan the past 20+ years and endured a ton of bad seasons and have been a season ticket holder now since 2010 after waiting on the list for all those years.

I am extremely grateful for having seen 3 Super Bowls in my lifetime. All kings lose their crown at some point - there is no shame in admitting Reese hasn't been perfect. I just don't want this team to sink to the point where Eli's best years are wasted and we go into a complete gut and rebuild.

What was the prognosis from the doctors? They should be good to go. No problem. So, the GM assumes that these players will be decent players when the season starts. The same can be said for Tuck who had "rededicated" himself to the game.

The last time Kiwi played on the line he was the best player on the line, then he got injured. So, putting him back on the line instead of linebacker should make the line better. Nope.

Personnel decisions like these aren't all on the GM. They are on the coaches and even the doctors. It just so happened that they were wrong on all of them.

Again, which GMs have been better?

Ozzie Newsome
Belichick
Thompson
Loomis

Heck

Even Elway are all great GM's.

Grigson is on his way to becoming a top GM as well after tanking one season and making the playoffs with a rookie QB and starting 3-1 this season.

is a former player and scout. And looky who's #1...
Link - ( New Window )

With the cap, dynasties are over. If a rash of injuries hits, especially at one position, your team is cooked.

Before this season started, did you look at this roster and think we wouldn't compete?

I never said Reese didn't deserve praise or admiration for his job that he did. BUT. He also deserves the criticism as well. That's what a lot of people are over looking.

Judging by this roster, this season and near the end of last season do you really think Reese is #1?

I think he has made some good points. We seem very talent-less all of a sudden. That is a fair statement. I am not suggesting Reese does not walk on water for me for the past, but that is the past.

They are reverting to the late 60s and the 70s. They stink at everything - offense, defense, and special teams. They can't hardly even win a coin toss.

This is the least competitive GIANTS team since the "fifteen years of lousy football."

Some of the teams from that era would kick the ass of this lousy team. Arsparger's teams played defense with a vengeance.

Now the GIANTS can't even tackle. Or block.

looking pretty damn good lately, too.

But that's if the stars aligned for us. I never expected to go 0-4 to start the season. I felt at worst we would be 2-2.

But when you actually take the end of last season into consideration and this season thus far and look at the roster it doesn't scream promise.

I knew our OL would be our biggest weakness. I never imagined it would be this bad when Eli took the fewest sacks last season.

I also knew our LB's are garbage, but I thought for sure our DL would create the pressure on the QB to alleviate the stress on them. I also had hopes that Rolle and Brown would be a good duo in back end of the defense, unfortunately Brown is hurt.

Webster has been on a decline for a few years and TT has played well and stayed healthy so far.

The only thing I was sure about was that our division was real weak and we could possibly exploit it.

If we lose to the Eagles @ home then you can call it a season.

this article from years back hits on the main reason we are struggling.
Link - ( New Window )

GMs in the game to strung out on stupid pills.

GM is one of the biggest factors in a team's success, but not the only one. Injuries, schedule, a hot quarterback, getting healthy for the playoffs, schemes, and many other things contribute. And all that can be laid to waste by an unlucky bounce.

harsh criticism for the product that is currently "playing" on the field.

Some of the projects and reaches that Reese has made really make me wonder if he has been too cute for his own good. There is no doubt that he has done a great job on many picks, especially on receivers and DL/CB, though look how many high draft picks he has used on those.

Nuff said.

Which was my point. Reese is in charge of personnel.

How many years are we going to go and watch him draft guys like Philip Dillard, Greg Jones, Travis Beckum, Barden, Sinorice Moss, Gerris Wilkerson.

For every hit there are like 3 or 4 misses at a clip.

2011 alone: Marvin Austin, Jernigan (he's on his way out), Greg Jones (noted above), Da'Rel Scott (cut today), Tyler Sash.

5 busts in one year. That is almost a Cowboys draft class.

As stated before that had more to do with Eli getting hot at the right time (Not a product of Reese but Accorsi) and the defense playing really well.

How many years of 6-2 have we seen only to crumble in the second half? If they continue this season playing this poorly we can be without the playoffs 5 out of the past 6 years.

Reese deserves the credit but also deserves the blame.

amazing effort by Cruz to turn a 10 yd pass into a 99 yd TD we likely don't even make the playoffs in those years.

Victor Cruz.

VP, Without Bradshaw's 88yd run in Buffalo and an
NYG in NC : 8:17 pm : link
amazing effort by Cruz to turn a 10 yd pass into a 99 yd TD we likely don't even make the playoffs in those years

Make way for the chiefs seahawks and broncos

2011

Round Selection Player Position College

1 19 Prince Amukamara CB Nebraska - starting to turn it on
2 52 Marvin Austin DT North Carolina - LOL CUT
3 83 Jerrel Jernigan WR Troy - LOL
4 117 James Brewer OT Indiana - Too raw
6 185 Greg Jones LB Michigan State -LOL CUT
198 [b] Tyler Sash S Iowa - LOL CUT
202 [b] Jacquian Williams LB South Florida - decent back up
7 221 Da'Rel Scott RB Maryland - LOL CUT

2010

1 15 Jason Pierre-Paul Defensive End South Florida - looks hurt still
2 46 Linval Joseph Defensive Tackle East Carolina - solid player
4 115 Phillip Dillard Linebacker Nebraska - LOL WHO?
5 147 Mitch Petrus Offensive Guard Arkansas - LOL
6 184 Adrian Tracy Linebacker William & Mary - Practice squad all-pro
7 221 Matt Dodge Punter East Carolina - LMAO

2009

1 29 Hakeem Nicks Wide Receiver North Carolina - Hasn't been himself
2 45 Clint Sintim Linebacker Virginia - LOL trash
60 William Beatty Offensive Tackle Connecticut - solid/decent
3 85 Ramses Barden Wide Receiver Cal Poly-S.L.O. - LOL SOFT
100 Travis Beckum Tight End Wisconsin - LOL
4 129 Andre Brown Running Back North Carolina State - Cut once, came back and injury prone
5 151 Rhett Bomar Quarterback Sam Houston State -LMAO
6 200 DeAndre Wright Cornerback New Mexico - LOL WHO?
7 238 Stoney Woodson Cornerback South Carolina - LOL WHO?

2008

1 31 Kenny Phillips Safety Miami (Fla.) - Could have been special - too injury prone
2 63 Terrell Thomas Cornerback USC - see above
3 95 Mario Manningham Wide receiver Michigan - solid player, now injury prone
4 123 Bryan Kehl Outside Linebacker BYU - LOL
5 165 Jonathan Goff Linebacker Vanderbilt - Had one decent year but was lucky to be a special teamer
6 198 Andre' Woodson Quarterback Kentucky -LMAO
199 Robert Henderson Defensive End Southern Miss - WHO?

They are all a crap shoot and you don't know who is going to pan out ... But our higher round picks have been the issue .. Rounds 1-4 awful .., rounds 5-7 you are lucky ... With all the underclass man coming out the drafts just aren't as deep as they used to be..

With OL and LB a huge issue WTF did we draft a QB in the 4th round ???

Too many projects drafted in the higher rounds when these guys would have been available later ...

I've said enough ..

Is bad drafting Reese's fault?

Was that a serious question?

2006: 2nd & 3rd for Moss
2007: Smith 2nd
2008: Manningham 3rd
2009: Nicks 1st, Barden 3rd & 5th
2010: None
2011: Jernigan 3rd
2012: Randle 2nd
2013: None
That's 8 picks in first 3 rounds on WRs over 7 years, plus a 5th. Then throw in the 4th on Beckum who was mkore WR than TE.
I know there are good players in there, and Smith was a shame. But for me that is just too many picks getting Eli receivers. Over same time, only 3 picks were used on O-line in first 3 rounds and one on a LB (Sintim.)

Thanks for coming up with this novel idea. It's really amazing that there haven't been any other threads like this.

I said I was surprised a Giants fan wouldn't know how to spell Baas, seeing as the guy touches the ball on every offensive play and he's been putrid lately. Also calls to question your attention to detail.

You haven't successfully made any argument against Reese - you've posted his drafts (which you "pulled from another board" - as if you can't hit about 100 sites to quickly get our draft, this one included) and bitched about the results.

Bottom line - if we finish the year with a losing record, this is the first year during Reese's tenure that we'll have done so. Some high praise for other GMs on this board, like Ozzie Newsome (who's an excellent GM) - but by any measure, Reese has done better, whether it's record or SB appearances/victories.

Thanks for contributing, your post will go right into the garbage pile.

when you are running a company/department and shit falls apart then usually the top guy, Reese, is the one that usually gets run out. That's reality brother!

However, I will say this, our scouting department hasn't done Reese any favors. It goes hand in hand. The reality is no matter how you slice it he has done a pretty poor job. The results or lack there of have spoken for themsleves.

And I like the guy and really respect him...but I call it like I see it and it is was it is.

I have given my opinion as to why he hasn't been what he is cracked up to be.

That draft history is putrid. He gets such high regard as an excellent talent evaluator when he has missed on a lot of his picks. Which was my point that all these whiffs have crippled the Giants right now to the point that they have zero depth and zero talent in certain areas of the team.

He still gets a pass for it based on the 2007 draft (which was an amazing draft class) and hasn't really done much since then.

And again MY BAD I MISSPELLED A GARBAGE CENTERS NAME. If that's what you are going to nitpick on then maybe you need to prove how it isn't an ad hominem attack, it's irrelevant to the argument. Maybe you should instead bring forth some evidence to dispute the fact that Reese has been drafting like crap since 2008. That he isn't and shouldn't be held in such high regard.

As others have said those Super Bowl years have a lot more to do with Eli clicking and the stars aligning at the precise moment.

Not providing proper personnel depth (VIA the draft). Keeping that trash Gilbride as OC.

I can understand giving him a pass with the 2 rings. But if this team stays like this the rest of this season and next then whose fault is it?

what you fail to realize is that the depth of this roster is souley on the GM of this team. He owns that! That being said our depth or lack there of is TERRIBLE.

We have probably the worst depth in the NFL at the OL, LB, RB and you can probably throw in there the Safety position too.

So everyone who wants to bury their head in the sand and ignor reality please feel free to do so. But at the end of the day what you're looking at is reality....just say'n it is what it is and it's hard to argue with reality!

or his "value over need" strategy that I for one never entirely appreciated or adequately understood. Looking at the draft picks laid out above, it's not extremely impressive top to bottom first through fourth rounds. But is that because he attempted to pick value regardless of Giants need, and now the Giants desperately need blocking but that's not where JR has determined the value was?

This team lacks talent at just about every position and that is due to poor drafting, the mismanagement of the salary cap, and some poor free agent decisions. As I have stated here before, Coughlin is a much better football coach then Reese is a GM. Let's see what he does to straighten this mess out.

The 2008 draft was great plucking out Phillips and Thomas with the last picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds. Should have been two pro-bowlers anchoring the secondary for years.

And JPP at the end of 2011 looked like one of the best picks of the century. I don't know what's going on with him but in a few more losing weeks if his back isn't 100% and there is a danger of him hurting himself then they might as well IR him and play the rookie.

I thought that the Giants reached for Pugh. Even after they drafted him no one was talking about him being a great talent with Pro Bowls in his future. He was solid, reliable, a leader type.

And, in hindsight, drafting a RB was not a good idea in 2012. With the short careers of running backs, you have to have the blockers in place first.

"I want what I want and I want it now" mentality beacme the norm is this country...............past success bought a little more patience and respect for a job well done.

It is that mentality that is behind the "Eli is an elite quarterack, but only until he screws up school of thought.

describing these drafts as horrible, putrid or any word along those lines really doesn't understand the draft or the NFL.

you can lay Petrus, Sintim and Austin at the feet of Reese.

Petrus fell off a cliff to....to...what, be a rapper or something? We was a nasty dude, and if he didn't just give up, the guy would be what Davis Wilson needs right now.

Austin's a bit of a head case. Sometimes teams are just bad fits. He'll excel elsewhere

And Sintim, we all know about that

The expectation of draft pick success on here is mind boggling. History tells you that a player in the 3rd round is 50-50 to become a starter. 4th and on there is a 66% chance the player does not make the team.

How the hell do you call 4th -7th round picks busts.

Sintim was not a good pick due to position in college. You understand the Austin gamble. Beckum was a bad pick because he was beaten up in college before the draft. Barden was drafted for a specific purpose, which the coaches never used him in.

There were 15 LB taken after Dillard: There are 3 currently in the NFL - 1 is a starter. 9 of those were out of NFL after 2012, 4 out after 2011 and 1 in 2010. Only 1 of these players had more than 25 career tackles - the draft is a gamble

he has been GM for 7 drafts here in NY - What 1st round player has he missed on. He has been good on 2's (4 out 6) not counting Randle and Hankins.

You need to get lucky late in the draft. Go look back at the available players and see how many don't make it.

Reese has negatives, but the draft is not 1 of them.

...given the available options. Wonderful, fire him if you want (not that you can). Of the available options, who do you replace him with that you expect to get better results from? Simple question.

if they hire within it would be Marc Ross.

if they look outside of the organization they could look at young up and comers like Nick Caserio or Eric Decosta.

You also never know who is waiting in the wings for an opportunity to run the Giants who is currently with a team.