Was listening to Sirius NFL Radio today and they were talking about how the new Browns defensive coordinator has taken a bunch of unknown players (outside of guys like Hayden and Kruger) and crafted one of the top defenses in the league.
Mike Zimmer in Cincinnati has turned several lesser players into near-household names.
So, I started thinking about the Giants defense. Lots of names, but no results.
So it is bad enough that we have guys playing below expectations -- but when was the last player to consistently perform above expectations under Perry Fewell?
does not mean that the defense is actually good. It's not. It's just better than the incredibly bad offense.
The offense is making the defense worse by being so god awful. 7 points total in 2 games. 3 and outs galore. Turnovers.
I don't know if any defense in this league outside of one or two could possibly be considered "good" under these circumstances.
If the offense was anything resembling what they've been in the past, this team would have at least 2 wins right now and we'd probably be talking about how the defense has looked a bit better this year rather than finding every way possible to blame the DC for whatever we can.
is the reason they are losing. They have continually put the D in precarious field position, given up points directly on turnovers and have not been able to sustain any time of possession. The D has been on the field way too much. The Giants are 31st in time of possession (just 25:31 per game) time of possession stats
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getting on Ross for biting on the double moves and looking into the backfield. He specifically said he has to stop that and that's why he gets burned. What he didn't say is that Ross is doing exactly what the DC is telling him to do. That's the scheme. That's what Fewell wants. That's how the Giants get INT's. It's also one of the reasons their defense sucks. Having the DL's "reading and dropping" is more of a problem but the soft zone watching the QB is almost is horrible.
I'd say that the greatest Underachiever is Fewell.
LOL.. Fewell is telling Ross to bite on double moves on purpose? Now I've heard it all..
Any UDFA who is a multiyear starter does.
Ross was demoted to 3rd string in Jacksonville last year. Think about that for a second. And people here are mentioning him as an underachiever?
This is a guy we have to roll out as a starter now because of injuries and he's actually made some plays (he's also given some up but he hasn't been awful.. and I've killed him in the past)
Still fighting the good ol' fight, eh?..lol..
32nd in plays per drive
32nd in yards per drive
29th in yards per drive
32nd in INTs per drive
30th in Fumbles per drive
32nd in turnovers per drive
30th in points per drive
The offense has 56 possessions, which is 2nd in the NFL. The league average is 47. This makes the aggregate #s look a little bit better, but when you break it down by drives you see how bad we are. We're playing really high-possession games because the hands it back to the other team so quickly and often.
The defensive drive stats aren't great either, but it starts with the O. Plus the O and STs have given up 4 TDs in 4 games and the defense has had the worst average starting field position in the league.
32nd in plays per drive
32nd in ToP per drive
29th in yards per drive
32nd in INTs per drive
30th in Fumbles per drive
32nd in turnovers per drive
30th in points per drive
Brown definitely should be in the oberachieved category. I am hesitant to throw first and second rounders into the overachievement category. JPP's 2011 was one of the best we've seen since the Strahan and quite possibly LT days. But this year and last cloud his evaluation.
The problem imo is that the d overall has been disappointing during his three years and four games. He has inherited aging vets and truly a lack of young talent. I think if the Dline were 07 good then we'd see a back seven that thrived. I think last year proved that that unit could produce turnovers. Unfortunately our DEs are old and hurt and the D overall suffers.
I have never been a fan of his approach, but with this talent level I dont think there are many DCs that could make a huge difference.
They are, believe it or not, worse than our offense right now.
Mitchell, Michael Johnson, and even James Brewer started. I think Curtis Deloach played then. I am not exactly sure on him. But he had some no named guys who played ok. I remember Michael Johnson blitzing from the safety spot.
And he was good when he played for Fewell the year following our Super Bowl.
I think a lot of the guys like Butler, Mike Johnson etc. were guys who benefitted from a very strong front 7. If you put those guys in the defensive backfield with the front 7 we have right now, I don't think they'd fare all too well.
how good our defense is this week. I think our offense will actually score some agaisnt a bad Eagles defense.
We didnt stop Peyton in the 2nd half, and Carolina scored on 6 straight possessions between the 2nd and 3rd quarter. KC offense is bad, but still had some success against us.
Like people have said, the only reason the defense doesnt get shit on more is because our offense/special teams are worse. But lets not act like our defense is something special.
everyone complains that the defense is always "too tired", but a part of that is because they dont get off the field.
We are ranked last in sacks and 3rd down conversion (again). Going by yards is bad since our offense is off the field a lot. But if you arent stopping them on 3rd down and not sacking the QB - how good is your defense really?
The defense allowed 10 points total until there were under 6 minutes left in the game last Sunday. Eventually you just can't keep asking them to get stops. They gave the offense about 15 chances to tie the game or take a lead and the offense would reward them by going 3 and out and the D would have to get right back on the field.
I'm not under the illusion that this is a dominant defense but there just are not defenses in this league save for a very small few that would be able to succeed under these circumstances. The offense is giving them NOTHING. No points, no sustained drives.. almost nothing but 3 and outs and turnovers.
Peyton has been shredding everyone this year so I don't know if there's anything we could have done there.
There's really not much excuse for the Carolina game though. It looked like they just flat out quit. They looked deflated. But again.. the offense was just pitiful.
Our offense is converting 22.9% of our 3rd downs. Worst in the entire NFL.
our defensive weaknesses are masked by the ineptness of our offense and special teams.
But I believe our offense is going to get better. I am not quite sure about the defense. With not getting pressure, bad LBs, and some banged up corner, I feel at the end of the year we will be complaining more about the defense than offense.
..the defensive numbers will look better and we'll win a fair amount of games.
Problem is I keep saying that every week and the offense continues to do nothing when we need them to.
The Eagles D fucking blows so this has to be the week.
What's interesting now, at this moment, is we saw this coming end of last season, into preseason, and now. In preseason, one might say, we are not gameplanning or scheming, but I didn't like how we were playing then. I even wanted to play the starters longer because they looked inept. Something needs to be done.
It's funny how it's one extreme or another. The defense giving up home run balls left and right while the offense has to score points. And now we are on the other side of the spectrum. Defense is not as bad and can say they are much better than the offense, and now the offense is the biggest shit show out there.
At this point clean slate both coordinators and keep TC here.
where did you get those drive stats? I'd love to see them on the defense. I think the defense is playing significantly better than last year and it has been without any semblance of a pass rush, but I agree with the premise of this thread which is essentially that Fewell can take a fairly talented (many disagree) group and make them at least better than average (which they haven't been).
I will say this, if one of the DE's showed up for a game on the pass rushing side of things, they'd be in pretty good shape on D. I still think teams are capable of dinking and dunking them all over the field and that the coverage will also tend towards looser, reaction style, but I think they've played better this year. I still can't stand Fewell and think someone better could be doing better, but they're good enough to win if your offense did anything and your pass rush woke up.
part of that is not getting to the passer on early passing downs and obviously 3rd and longs, but it just doesn't seem to me like we get a lot of teams in 3rd and longs. That could be incorrect I have no stats to back it up, but it seems very easy sometimes for teams to complete short passes and get to 3rd and shorts or pick up first downs. That could be a function of the linebackers or it could be a function of the league as a whole-its just impossible to stop a good passing attack, and that's a shame.
But too many are simply listing players who have had success as opposed to overachieve.
Stevie Brown is a great answer.
Overachieve is a strong word, but I think we got more out of Deon Grant than we expected.
Stevie Brown is really the only real answer I can come up with.
It is very frustrating.
We just can't seem to get things moving in all aspects. And then on top of it, the special teams have been fucking awful. Josh Brown can't make a field goal and we have guys taking punts to the house on us every other week.
That's Quinn. He has been average. We had guys like Hixon and last year with Wilson, but I always have that vision of Coughlin calling Quinn over and yelling at him to explain himself.
You can make a montage of special plays breakdown. Defense is average to below average. The offense is a BOOM or BUST and now it's totally done. So what else? Since Ross has taken over our drafts have gotten worse. There need to be changes.
is far below average...you could put together a two hour tape
that would only cover the last year.How about 5 guys to the right of center???? Poor directional kicking, offsides on third and one...Running out of bounds and coming back in after 40 yards.
Touching the ball on the two after being in the end zone...with three other guys there.
PISS POOR TACKLING !!
Average????? I think not.
how can you endorse keeping coughlin, when the offensive system is his, the decision to retain fewell and quinn (i was fine with gilbride for the most part until this season), and his comic loyalty to aging, injured, ineffective vets, and the maddening tendency to play shitbirds like da'rell scott over wilson. other than being the HC of two superbowl teams and (so i hear) making really detailed powerpoints, what the fuck has he done to warrant retaining. shit, mara had to intervene to ensure the firing of bill sheridan. coughlin needs to go. he, and his two coordinators, as another poster on another thread put it, are NFL dinosaurs.
Because he is a HOF coach. Why not do the steeler way? Why not clear our the coordinators and keep the HC? HOF coaches just don't pop up everywhere.
Did you know Cowher, who people on here want, had Tim Lewis and Gilbride as coordinators? What happened? The steelers kept Cowher, cleared the coordinators, and hired a guy named Whisenhunt & a guy named Dick LeBeau. Next, they won a SB.
I'd keep Coughlin, but clear the coordinators. Maybe we can bring a young OC, who can be groomed to be HC, and bring in an aggressive DC.
in that argument, and have even considered it myself, you know he'd have to be forced by management to fire both his coordinators. i have no idea if cowher had to be strong-armed the same way coughlin has had to be in the recent past, but another thing to remember is, other than spagnuolo, coughlin has been something of a disaster at picking coordinators (he picked hufnagel to coordinate the offense!! the guy brady ran out of new england!!). so unless reese does it for him, are you really confident that he wouldn't just get two other NFL fossils who he has some connection to to coordinate the O, D, and STs? i'm absolutely not.
We need help talent-wise on both sides of the football. The offensive line needs help and defensively we really, really need some NFL caliber linebackers.
If his job is on the line, he would have to. It's that or get fired. Due to his age, I am not sure Coughlin would get another HCing job. Who knows? Maybe the Jags come back and give him the keys. But if it's his job or else, I would be willing to see what he choses.
His coordinator hires I am not a fan of Hufangel, Lewis, Sheridan, and fewell. Fewell won a SB and that saved his job I believe. But props to him, fair is fair, even though I dislike his system.
I would force his hand again. In fact, I would contend that if our record is just shit show quality, he may do it because it's so bad it's that or get fired.
In terms of quality of players, the pressure falls on Ross. FA players falls on Reese.
I think Fewell is average at best, so I'm no Fewell apologist, but if we're comparing apples to apples, Homer made the best point on this thread: The starting proposition that the Browns' D is a bunch of overachievers is pure bullshit.
Looking at the Browns' D there seems to be 2 players who are definitely overachieving & that's Desmond Bryant & Buster Skrine. As an UDFA DE, Bryant has 3.5 sacks, which are 1.5 fewer than he had in his best of 4 seasons as a DT w/ Oakland. Moving him over 1 spot on the DL or getting the hell out of Oakland (hell & Oakland are more than a tad redundant) MAY be the only major differences. Skrine, a 5th rounder, already has 6 PDs, 21 tackles & 1 INT. He had 11 PDs, 0 INTs & 72 tackles last year, his 2nd.
Mingo, the 6th player drafted this year, has 3 sacks. D'Qwell Jackson, a 2nd rounder, leads in tackles by a large margin.
except, we don't have a Dick LeBeau. Coughlin has done a shitty job of hiring coordinators during his tenure here. If we're 6-10 or worse, it is simply time to find a fresh young face to take on the HC duties. At Coughlin's age, it doesn't make sense to give him a longer rope.
Dick LeBeaus definitely grow on trees. In fact, there's one hanging off a tree right outside my window. I'll ship him to the Giants pronto. Should I use FedEx or UPS?
That's fair. We don't an exact DL, though he is my favorite DC. I want younger coordinators who are aggressive especially on D side of things. Again for me it's simply, make TC do it or else fire him. It makes it easier if our record is really shitty. I guess the realistic question is do we expect Mara to fire Coughlin has a plan or keep him and make him fire his coordinators?
Mara went out of his way in the SB speech to say that he stuck to his guns and didn't listen to the countless letters about Coughlin. So now after 1 really, really shitty do we expect him to fire him? I don't expect that.
Either way, it will be interesting this offseason especially if we have a shit show of a year.
Jlukes - who are the no names on the Bengals defense that have "become household names?"
Burfict is a fair answer, but outside of that the Bengals defense is full of high round draft picks (Atkins, Dunlap, Johnson, Hall, Mauluga), and FA's that were high round picks from other teams (Newman, Jones).
Who were you referring to?
Geno Atkins is a great 4th rounder. You're correct on everyone else. They seem to hit on a lot of 1st-3rd rounders. It's amazing how many of those they have and hit on. Eventually if you suck often you will get a crack on good players.
We, on the other hand, have our share of swing and misses. Factor in raw mid round developmental guys, degradation and age to certain spots, and that accounts to our situation.
Fair enough (on Atkins).
It is interesting how the teams that were bad for so many years (SF, Sea, Cin, KC) are now so loaded with talent due to great drafting, and some good fortune.
We can suck for 3-5 years to get top 10 or even top 5 picks and rack up blue chip talent. KC had a lot of blue chip guys. A bunch of DTs, DE, Berry, Albert, and Tamba. Eventually shit will click if you're getting a crack a top guys. If we got top picks for 3-5 years AND good coaches we'd be set too.
We rose quickly because of Eli, and Reese being the Director of College scouting. Eli is accorsi's guy, but Snee, and everyone else to the 2007 draft is Reese. 2008 on was the tenure of Ross.
This has been proven many a time by BBI.
I wouldn't want the guy to coach Pop Warner.
We need to hire that Browns DC or Spags. Pronto.
then ross needs to leave with the coordinators.
What a shock that crappy teams who have GMs with at least half a brain do well picking top 10 1st rounders & 2nd & 3rd rounders a few picks after the top teams' 1st & 2nd rounders many years in a row. If a team blows for 4 years, that's a 12 player advantage over a team that was good those 4 years. The many morons on this board seem to fail to take that into account when bashing Reese. Luck definitely has something to do with that as well. It's unlucky that Sintim, Austin, Chad Jones, Barden, Prince were injured a bunch their 1st &/or 2nd seasons (Sintim, Austin & Barden might have sucked regardless), whereas it seems several teams like the 49ers didn't have any such players.
I'd love to see what an absolute shitshow the Giants would be if it were somehow managed & coached completely by BBI collectively. I doubt the Giants would ever win a game.
The irony is I am sure some team would hire him as a GM. I would love to see Reese pull double duty again. Let him be GM AND Director of College Scouting. Meaning he does the work in a general capacity, but he creates the draft board and centralizes the scouting reports from the different regional scouts.
2007 was a great draft. I am very curious to see if he can do that again or even just have a good draft. I want to see him pull double duty again.
Are people who do better than what is expected. If you mean hall of gamer then that's a different story. Who expected Mundy to play as well as he has? I sure didn't. I didn't expect Brown to get almost 1 INT per game last season. I didn't expect a project DE like JPP to come into the league and be a force of nature, regardless of his spot in the draft. Who knew Kiwi was going to be a Swiss Army knife? Blackburn is a baller. The fact people still underestimate him makes him an overachiever for his performance in SB46 alone. It's not the D. It's the O. Get the O right and the D probably won't give up more than 14 in a game. Gotta give them time to rest. They've played 8 games worth of defense in 4 weeks. The Offense has played about 2.