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Francesca on Gilbride

JoefromPa : 10/3/2013 11:21 am
In response to a Giants fan who had called in to complain about the play calling of the Giants, stating, "Me and my friends(his language not mine) can predict every call"

Mike simply said, "You don't win in the NFL with deception, you win with execution." Francesca then went on to site several successful dynastic runs where the teams ran the same plays over and over, challenging anyone to stop them, no one could.

I think he made a very valid point, and is why I have never joined in on the criticism of Gilbride. I find it difficult to understand how fans in the seats or watching on tv believe they can actually make a valid assessment of play calling, especially when you are second- guessing someone with the resume of Gilbride.
I guess people think  
Jerry in DC : 10/3/2013 11:23 am : link
that the team has enough players to not be the worst or 2nd worst offense in the NFL
while thats partly true  
GIANTSr01 : 10/3/2013 11:24 am : link
If you're OL can't block and you keep calling 5-7 step drops, you're insane. The playcalling needs to adjust to a team's strengths and weaknesses and most importantly put the team in position to maximize it's strengths.

The same slow developing deep routes that worked in 2011, aren't going to be as efficient behind this injured, patchwork line.
The only formation where you knows exactly what's  
barens : 10/3/2013 11:26 am : link
coming, is when the Giants go empty backfield, with their running back split out wide. Always a screen pass to our our running back. Other than that, I wouldn't have a clue as to what's obvious.
An empty set sideline pass to Nicks on 3rd and 1  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/3/2013 11:26 am : link
can be criticized.

A pass play where Brandon Myers is tasked with single-blocking Tamba Hali can be criticized.

DaRel Scott having 20 snaps a game be criticized.

Allowing your QB to be sacked 7 times in a half can be criticized.

The game plan of throwing 56 passes in gale winds against the Redskins in winter can be criticized.
Yeah, it is execution  
rsjem1979 : 10/3/2013 11:27 am : link
And if you don't have the players capable of executing your offense, you might want to make a few adjustments instead of repeatedly banging your head against the wall.
The only real criticism I have of Gilbride...and have had for years...  
MikeN in Ottawa : 10/3/2013 11:29 am : link
has been his reference each year to using the no-huddle outside of the two minute drill. He says it each year and yet we never see it unless the game is out of hand.

I am not the only one who has mentioned the fact that going up tempo or no huddle would help this young OL and help Eli. After all, as we all know, Eli runs this well yet we never see it.

I agree completely about the execution still that does not excuse the recognition that going no huddle would help this offense. Our best drive last Sunday, outside of the long pass to Cruz, was our no huddle which led to the missed field goal.

I just think  
Giantcol22 : 10/3/2013 11:29 am : link
Gilbride's offense is too complex to where a guys like Randle and Meyers are still not on the same page with Eli. I also don't like the fact he loves running plays with so many deep routes. It reminds me of Mike Martz offense and how he would get Marc Bulger killed in St. Louis. You need a good O-line to run that kind of offense and right now we don't have that.
I forgot to mention  
Giantcol22 : 10/3/2013 11:30 am : link
How much I hate that stupid is draw play!! lol
Francesa is 100% correct  
HomerJones45 : 10/3/2013 11:31 am : link
not that the "play not called always would have worked" contingent on BBI will ever accept it.
If the defense  
Josh in the City : 10/3/2013 11:31 am : link
knows what's coming, your level of execution has to be perfect. Without incredible talent everywhere on offense, you're not going to have perfect execution every play and thus, need to be more creative. Defenses have clearly adjusted to our route trees and they can now dictate what routes we run by showing specific defenses (purposefully). The biggest issue with Killdrive is that he has utterly failed to adjust to the defense's adjustments.
typically dumb Francesa quote  
oipolloi : 10/3/2013 11:33 am : link
with the possible exception of Mike Ditka, every coach is looking to disguise what the team is doing and fool the opposition

even the names of various strategies, such as "misdirection," indicate that

plays that are run over and over have options that make them effective, so that if a defense overcommits they get burned
Ha, this thread should have ended after  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/3/2013 11:35 am : link
TTH's post.
NJGiantFan84 : 10/3/2013 11:35 am : link
deserves some criticism. He tried to make adjustments agagainst KC, but they knew thats what the Giants wanted to do and took the short routes away. Our Receivers also are not beating their men.

With the D-Line beating up our running game, linebackers are able to focus more on coverage and not bite on the fakes to the RB. There are far bigger issues than Gilbride.

My biggest issue w/ him is his refusal to go into the 2 min. drill more often. I know they said they tried this a few times in KC but went 3 and out, but they should do it from the star. Kickstart this offense from the beginning.

He also subs too much. Let players get in a rhythm. Give a guy 3 series in a row. Wilson needs to be utilized. Try an end around or a reverse. ANything that can try to slow down the pass rush, if the screens are not working.

Also, if there is an incomplete pass on 1st down, you don't need to run the ball every single time on 2nd down. This is why we are in 3rd and long often. Incomplete first down, everyone knows the run is coming and a loss of 2 or 3 on 2nd down. 3rd and 13 Sometimes, you can throw it 3 downs in a row. The media keeps discussing how bad we have been on 3rd down. This is true, but the looming reason for this is because we are so bad on 1st and 2nd down that we are constantly in 3rd and long situations.
i agree, kinda, but  
Dave : 10/3/2013 11:36 am : link
3rd and 1 and they throw a bomb? or that silly 3 te formation with out even 1 te who can block?
It's about scheme and....  
damdevs : 10/3/2013 11:48 am : link
being one step ahead of what the Defense is trying to do to stop you. Of course you've got to be able to execute and beat your man in those one on one matchups.

If you don't think the Petyon Manning's, Tom Brady's and Drew Brees's and their offenses don't try to mix it up and making adjustments to keep Defenses off balance then you're not watching enough football.

Hell Peyton said the same damn thing this week in an interview.

well one area where teams  
Enzo : 10/3/2013 11:52 am : link
often use deception is at the goal line and in short yardage, and we all know how things tend to go for us in those situations.
And who is responsible...  
GiantJohn : 10/3/2013 11:53 am : link
For the execution of plays for the offensive side of the ball?
giantfanboy : 10/3/2013 11:53 am : link
remember the first game of season
on the last scoring drive ..
Eli was running the same pass play over and over again and dallas could not stop it
What Fatso said 100% true  
NNJ Tom : 10/3/2013 12:00 pm : link
(hey even a broken clock is right 2x a day)

Its one of the oldest truths in football. I've played in games, which we won easily, running basically 2 plays.

The reason teams make adjustments is to make plays harder to execute. Its not rocket science guys.

Gilbride can't make the O-line any better  
Sonic Youth : 10/3/2013 12:00 pm : link
And it's obvious to anyone who watches the Giants that the O-line play is what is crippling this offense. You can't scheme around a weakness that bad. I've been watching the Giants religiously since 2000 (I'm 24, so 2000 is the first season I can truly remember), and so far, I haven't seen an O-line worse than this. Granted, I was 14 at the time, but I don't remember the 2003 O-line being this bad.
on defense that is.  
NNJ Tom : 10/3/2013 12:02 pm : link
Oh bullshit  
Rflairr : 10/3/2013 12:08 pm : link
If you know you're struggling with the OL. Why the hell do you continue to try to run plays to throw deep. Eli still doing 7 step drops when there are injuries on the OL. Any decent OC would switch to quick passes. When was the last time the successfully ran slant pass? Part of being a good OC is having a feel for the game and adjusting. Giants rarely adjust

And please tell me when the hell that shotgun draw play that he calls at least six times a game has worked?
I mean, Francesa made the guy's point despite himself...  
SB : 10/3/2013 12:09 pm : link
...How many times have you seen the Giants continue to run the same or similar play because they it has been successful? Not often. I am thinking back to 2008 when our running game could not be stopped. Remember against Baltimore when the Giants imposed their will on that team with 200+ rushing yards? When has that happened since? Even when either Cruz or Nicks is destroying the coverage, Gillbride gets cute and calls stupid plays to some #4 WR or some WR screen.
In Gilbride's defense they have been shuffling starters  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 10/3/2013 12:11 pm : link
and changing up the play calling. Execution has been so bad TC said playcalling was like throwing at a dartboard.

That pitch was a headscratcher though
And a broader point beyond the playcalling itself  
jcn56 : 10/3/2013 12:12 pm : link
These guys simply don't look prepared when they take the field. OK, so maybe the talent isn't all that, and maybe we've got some big holes to fill - but 0-4? Losing big to a Carolina team? Are they any more talented?

These guys just don't look like they're ready on any given play, and part of that has to be on the coaching staff since that's their primary job.
It is execution  
Go Terps : 10/3/2013 12:17 pm : link
But it's tough not to detect some stagnation.

Watch the Saints by comparison. If there is a better offensive coach in the NFL than Payton I don't know who it is.
ilikethenygiants : 10/3/2013 12:18 pm : link
Both Big Mike and the caller are right. Obviously, plays have to be executed to win. And sometimes, plays have to be executed even when the D knows what's coming (short yardage, running the clock out, WRs beating their guys, for instance). But if the team can't execute when the D knows what's coming, it's on the coaches to strategize how to get them to execute plays that will work. Deception, varied play calls, different approaches all help teams to execute.

This year's problem seems to be both execution and coaching. Both have to be better.
In any business  
Vegas Steve : 10/3/2013 12:20 pm : link
It is up to management to put employees in a position to use their skills to the greatest level of success.

This not being done with our personnal

EX. D. Wilson is not the best pass blocker in the world, so why are we calling plays that require him to do what he is terrible at?
EX. Why are we calling 5 and 7 step drops when it clear to all the world we canít protect Eli?
EX. Why are we asking Snee to pull when he's clearly unable to do this effectively.

I agree with Franny when he says itís all about execution. He is correct, no question about it. However if the execution is not there is it due to a lack of talent or poor coaching or both?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
some deception goes a long way toward helping execution  
mattlawson : 10/3/2013 12:31 pm : link
This isn't 2008 anymore. cant run block on the goal line like we used to.
San Diego  
Jerry in DC : 10/3/2013 12:38 pm : link
has had a terrible OL for years and they have a few injuries this season. They've been lighting it up and Rivers hasn't played this well in years. New, smart, adaptable coach.

Good coaches do things differently depending on their personnel. In 2008 we had a great OL. In 2013 we don't. Adjustments need to be made.

And it's not like this is some historically bad OL. Eli has the tied-3rd most sacks in the league with 14. Roethlisberger has 15. Brees and Flacco have 12.

I guess if you think that we have the worst offensive personnel in the league then you'd think our coaches are doing a good job. Otherwise, you'd have to ask some questions.
FJ : 10/3/2013 12:47 pm : link
First of all, I call bullshit on the original premise: "Me and my friends(his language not mine) can predict every call"

You hear "fans" say this all the time, but it is B.S. The guys who say this are ones who sit there saying the Giants are going to pass (or run) on this play, then congratulate themselves when they are correct 50% of the time. That is not predicting the play. There are so many different passes and so many different runs in an NFL playbook. And they are run out of different formations, and they change based on the QBs and receivers reads. Plus, many of the plays are designed to look like one another so het there is a bit of deception that keeps the defense guessing.

But the main point is that it is execution that is killing the Giants right now. These are the same plays that the Giants have been using for the past 10 years, scoring over 400 points per season in recent years. Gilbride did not all of a sudden become stupid. He is, and has been, a very good offensive coordinator. But right now, the offensive line and TEs are not blocking (on runs and pass protection) as they have in past years. RBs are either not decisive enough (Wilson) or quick enough (Jacobs) to hit the hole and run to daylight. TE's (Myers) are tripping in the open field. WRs (are dropping passes (Nicks) or cutting off their routes (Randle). We've been playing without a healthy (Hynoski) or adequate (Pascoe) FB. Eli has been forcing throws. Fix these mistakes in execution and the playcalling will seem much, much better.
I don't agree with Francesca  
UberAlias : 10/3/2013 12:49 pm : link
To say you don't win with deception, well maybe not, but if these weren't important elements than you wouldn't have things like fake hand offs, which are built into virtually every play.

If the defense knows what is coming and can have the perfect call called to stop every play, that would be a huge advantage for a defense. That is why teams hire quality control coaches who monitor such things and tendencies to ensure things don't get too predictible and to identify tendencies for their opponents so that the team can try and exploit them.

I'm not saying that it doesn't mostly come down to execution, but go ask Parcells or BB if having the opponent know what you are doing isn't an advantage. It is not even just the plays called on Sunday where there is advantage. A team that is predictible is easier to prepare for. And the more things a player needs to watch for or think about, the more the mental play can inhibit a player's natural ability.
I would pay  
Pork and Beans : 10/3/2013 12:49 pm : link
to see some of you couch coordinators have to explain your complaints to Gilbride himself, and laugh as he absolutely destroyed your criticism. The guy has been coaching forever, and has run one of the top offenses in the NFL for years, but he has no clue what he is doing.

You just sound so DUMB thinking you are more qualified to evaluate the plays we run.
"An empty set sideline pass to Nicks on 3rd and 1 can be critisized "  
Giants11 : 10/3/2013 1:05 pm : link
The problem with that logic is that this is not the sandlot where the QB draws the play up in the dirt. Each play has multiple options and sets, and Eli picks and chooses the progressions and decides where to go with it based on time, match ups and how things develop. I agree I'd like to see him adjust to this line more, however I'm not privy to how much of this is Gilbride and how much is on Eli and his pre/post snap reads and decisions.
Huh. That's funny  
B in ALB : 10/3/2013 1:12 pm : link
because on Monday he said the exact opposite.
The problem  
PaulBlakeTSU : 10/3/2013 1:19 pm : link
with the Gilbride/Coughlin offense isn't that it's predictable. It's that it's complicated, high-risk, high-reward scheme is not a model for consistent results. If anything, the offense is too unpredictable. Our great QB in his 10th season can't predict where his receivers are going to decide to be, and our wide receivers can't predict where the QB expects them to be. Just unbelievable. This is the tenth season with the same QB/coach and the 7th season with the same QB/HC/OC. That's 150 straight football games our QB hasn't missed, and our passing game has more miscommunications than seemingly any team in the league.

In the six seasons Gilbride has been the OC, the Giants offense's average rank in points/game is is 7.8th. Ignoring Gilbride's first season, the last five years (excluding this season), the Giants have an average rank of 6.6th. So, since Gilbride has been here, the Giants offense has an average rank of ~7th in points per game. That seems really good. But it's basically the 78th percentile which is nothing special. More than that, we have what many consider to be a HOF-bound QB, elite, and among the best, and he hasn't missed a game. Yet the Giants cracked the top 5 in points scored just once under Gilbride, and it was back in 2008.

This year, we rank 30th through 4 games, ahead of only the Buccaneers who are struggling to run a similar system to ours, and the Jacksonville Jaguars who don't have a quarterback.

PaulBlake & Anish  
LG in NYC : 10/3/2013 1:30 pm : link
Your posts are absolutely 100% correct. Whatever else anyone thinks about this team or Gilbride, your explanations should be gospel around here.

Of course execution is important, and anyone saying anything different shouldn't be listened too.

Further, anyone arguing that our offense isn't "creative" enough shouldn't be taken seriously. I'm ok with the idea that we have been figured out, but it's not as if KG is a 3 yeards and could of dust type of OC.

The real issue, and the one that reasonable people are debating or trying to wrap their heads around, is whether or offense is too reliant on QB and WR's being on same page. As PaulBlake just stated, and it is a great point, what good is all of this HC/OC/QB consistency if we still see the QB throwing to a spot where there are no WR's (only DB's) because they weren't on the same page?

And despite all of our lofty offensive stats, even a quick look at the game by game logs for the past few years will show a lack of consistency regarding offensive output. Sure, the numbers look great in total and add up to nice ranking, but when you put up 49 one week and can't reach 17 the next (and look bad in the process)... that is not a recipe for a consistent team.

A secondary, but important issue, is whether KG/TC (and maybe even Eli) have appropriately adjusted the gameplans/playcalling to account for the current makeup of the team. As others have pointed out, it doesn't seem to make sense to run 5 and 7 step drops, and have the WR's run long pass patterns when your O Line is struggling.

One would think shorter pass plays, moving the pocket, 4 WR sets, and hurry up offense might make sense given the current personnel... yet to my untrained eye, i am not seeing it (or enough of it). It seems to me like we are doing the same thing we've done for years, results be damned... and that does concern me as well.
blue42 : 10/3/2013 1:33 pm : link
know teams self scout.....why do they do that????

Simple, teams get predictable.
I always  
AnishPatel : 10/3/2013 1:45 pm : link
like our offensive games after the BYE week when we add new concepts to our offense. Last year's screen pass against the Packers was great. It was a very creative way where we have Cruz run like he is going to get the ball on a reverse and instead that buys time for the OL to hit their landmarks for a screen which went to Bradshaw for a long gain.

I think we have the potential to be creative. I have seen it in our running game with Gilbride and in our passing game. Since that GB game, I haven't seen that well designed screen play ran again.

After the BYE week is a good time to see any tendency breakers added to the offense.
Doesn't it take  
Doomster : 10/3/2013 2:02 pm : link
8 weeks to reach the bye? Season could be over by then....
In an era of Brees, Manning, Brady, Rodgers  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 10/3/2013 2:11 pm : link
and with all the scoring these days I don't know how people look at an average offense of 7th as nothing special.
Giants Fan in Skins Land  
PaulBlakeTSU : 10/3/2013 2:52 pm : link
Because when you have what I believe is the 5th best Qb, mostly in his prime, who played every game, and you have consistency at the HC/OC/GM position for that entire long stretch so as to perfect the same scheme and be able to draft guys entirely to fit the scheme, then an overall offense that averages 7th in points, hasn't cracked the Top 5 since 2008, and averages 10th in yards doesn't seem like anything special to me in terms of evaluating the OC.
UberAlias : 10/3/2013 3:43 pm : link
Those offenses score much more than we do.
Is this one of those " bed" threads?  
Exit 172 : 10/3/2013 4:56 pm : link
You know things are bad when in order to defend the OC you  
Riggies : 10/3/2013 5:10 pm : link
have to invoke Francesa's opinion.
The idea that the Giants offense is complicate  
JoefromPa : 10/3/2013 5:21 pm : link
mentioned by a few posters is a very valid point. However it could also be said that when the Giants are on the same page, which has been often over the past 7 years, this complexity makes them almost impossible to defend, especially in crunch time.
My problem with the offense  
djl8699 : 10/3/2013 6:17 pm : link
Is that it appears that defense have become wise to the route trees and are now manipulating it by showing one thing and then anticipating the reads. It's impossible to get open that way. You even have DBs coming off their guy because they know where the ball's going. Yeah the OL has been terrible but I see a lot of coverage sacks too. Defenses are making receivers go where they want them to go. Once games start getting out of hand I believe the WRs are trying to adapt and that's where the miscommunications come in.

The problem isn't predictable play calling, it's predictable routes. Route running is all about deception. I just think it needs to be mixed up some. You can keep the route trees in but limit them. Some plays just have to be designed that X receiver runs a go no matter what, Y receiver runs an in no matter what, etc. IMO, you'd see an improvement.

With the skill position players on offense  
mrvax : 10/3/2013 6:28 pm : link
the Giants have, any NFL average coordinator should be able to have this team in the top of offensive stats every year.

Any less is a failure. The Danny Kanell throwing to Chris Calloway days are long gone. That's why I do not hold Gilbride in awe as much as some here.

However, you put together the best Offensive coach and best skill players and useless/injured/old Oline, you will get shit out as Tom Coughlin has proven.
so basically every team should just master one play  
chris r : 10/3/2013 7:35 pm : link
I'm at a loss.  
MtChas : 10/3/2013 8:04 pm : link
After Fassel, (2 between tackles, pass attempt on 3rd & 14, punt). Every series. Gilbride seems like a Walsh.
After two Super Bowl wins it now seems we consistently suck in all areas. I can't understand this season. We are not only getting no victories, we are getting our butts kicked and we shouldn't.
. I don't believe in attacking an enemies strength. It would appear to hit them "where they ain't" would be best.
FJ : 10/3/2013 10:05 pm : link
An overall offense that averages 7th in points, and hasn't even cracked the Top 5 since 2008, sounds pretty fucking consistent to me. I'll take that.
Joe, here is where you and Mike are wrong...  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 10/3/2013 10:45 pm : link
in this case. Our offensive line is not physically able to dominate the opposition and run right at them CONSISTENTLY. So, this team HAS TO do it with deception. The old Giants could walk up to the line, tell the defense the play, then run it. These guys cannot get a yard when they need it.
it doesnt matter what fans can  
blakjedi : 10/3/2013 10:48 pm : link
Or can't predict. The defensive coordinators Gilbride has gone up against have been predicting his calls for the last 12 games. The players from Asante Samuel, to Barry Cofield, to Chase Blackburn have said as much.
once again, top 10 in scoring means what?  
SHO'NUFF : 10/4/2013 1:30 am : link
We score 52 points on New Orleans one week, but can't score point 1 vs Atlanta the following week? We put 42 on the Eagles in the final game, but couldn't score more than 17 in our first meeting? We can put 41 on the Browns in a meaningless game, but can't score more than 16 points vs the Redskins with the division title up for grabs?

that's consistency alright...consistently inconsistent.
I agree with that sentiment that with our skill players we should be  
dangerousrappingfrog : 10/4/2013 9:32 am : link
be among the top in points regardless of scheme. Teams have figured us out, it is time for a change. 78% percentile is not really that great and are completely boom or bust.

I am tired of the excuses and defending KG, I want results.

People have been complaining for yrs about the same issues we still are experiencing. Where is the progress?
My stance is the same as JoeFromPa  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 10/4/2013 1:01 pm : link
The miscommunications will always happen every now and then but the benefit is being pretty unstoppable when everything is working. This makes KG a good OC. His stats back him up. I get what people are saying but in my view when you have oline issues for a few seasons and struggle to run the ball thats pretty damn good to average 7th in scoring. Most of this argument is either semantics or people refuse to acknowledge KG is a good offensive mind. That does not mean he is a great GM and they should stick with him after this season. But he has been very successful since he got here.

SHO'NUFF you continuously shrink the sample size to fit your opinion. Being top 10 in scoring means exactly what it means. Lets not forget the beatdown in SanFran last year. The oline was clearly struggling towards the end of the season.
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