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Accepting the holding penalty on 4th and 4

Danny Kanell : 10/6/2013 8:34 pm
Don't feel like going thru the game thread. Can anyone justify it? What's been Coughlin's explanation, I haven seen anything yet. It's as bad a decision ive ever seen him make.

Is Coughlin ok?
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if you want to get on TC for a call...  
BillKo : 10/6/2013 8:40 pm : link
get on him for calling the TO, then trying a challenge.

That was ill advised.
Danny Kanell : 10/6/2013 8:40 pm : link
Where did I say it cost them the game?
I didn't think it was that bad a call either to take the penalty  
Blue21 : 10/6/2013 8:42 pm : link
I couldn't believe the announcers couldn't figure it out.
Coughlin has a hard tiime admitting he is wrong  
oipolloi : 10/6/2013 8:43 pm : link
i think that has been a big problem this year

apart from accepting the penalty, why did he suddenly go back to running Jacobs off tackle after Eli had just sliced the Eagle secondary apart on two straight long TD drives?

it's almost as if Coughlin has to prove that he is right about "balance". why would you not just come out throwing the ball after you cut them to ribbons on 2 straight drives?
This just further cements the idea  
Geomon : 10/6/2013 8:44 pm : link
That these coaches don't know what the hell they are doing right now. Unanimous indeed.
lmao tommy boy  
area junc : 10/6/2013 8:46 pm : link
its time to go
Bad decision and I wrote it on the game thread  
RDJR : 10/6/2013 8:46 pm : link
at the time. It was 4th and 4 not 4th and inches. Let them try to go for it. That's what you want there. Get a stop and get great field position already up 7-0.
they were going  
lalalalala : 10/6/2013 8:47 pm : link

they didn't change any personnel on the field
Wrong call  
dcgiantsfan : 10/6/2013 8:52 pm : link
You make them convert. The moment he accepted it I was sure they'd get the first. Its funny how folks come out and say well thats not the reason we lost, but it sure as hayl didnt help us win. The moment Vick started running I began hearing TC defending his decision by saying its about execution.

That one play wasnt a game changer but part of several that led to tge lost. And as bad as this team is playing, we need every play we can get!
taterbug : 10/6/2013 8:57 pm : link
as much as i respect coughlin, he's starting to slip in his old age.

if i recall...wasn't it last year when we decided to kick a field goal on third down, with one timeout left. i was wanting to give Eli one more shot at getting more yardage before the fg attempt. forgot who it was against. i remember antrell rolle running up to coughlin and saying "its third down coach".
Let them go for it  
Optimus-NY : 10/6/2013 8:58 pm : link
That's what your defense is for. Find out if they're up to the task.
Challenge your D to stepup  
Optimus-NY : 10/6/2013 8:59 pm : link
They're getting paid too. Holy shit. Calgon, take me away...
Coughlin was positive Kelly was going to go for it?  
nomad1986 : 10/6/2013 9:05 pm : link
How the hell would he know? Coughlin would punt that ball 100 times out of 100. He punted from the 36 yard line because he's afraid to try a FG. How many times has Coughlin gone for it on 4th down? Or faked a FG or a punt? I'm not talking about 2013 I'm talking about the 10 years he's been Giants coach. Not one fake FG or fake punt in 10 years.

Or run a reverse from base personnel? Phil Simms said today the NFL is now all about deception. The Giants telegraph everything they're going to do on both sides of the ball.
And one thing I will say  
Danny Kanell : 10/6/2013 9:13 pm : link
If Coughlin declines and they do go for it and we stop them, giving us great field position up 7 after moving the ball with ease on the first drive, that's a whole different game. I'm sorry. Just an awful decision.
nomad - Great point  
Optimus-NY : 10/6/2013 9:18 pm : link
I've always been critical about TC in that regard.
Terrible decision  
Marty866b : 10/6/2013 9:22 pm : link
We were up 7=0 and our defense was playing well. I would have liked to have seen the Eagles go on 4th and 4 at that juncture.

Jeffrey : 10/6/2013 9:29 pm : link
I disagreed with the coach too, but then again it was still 3rd and 16! The real issue is why we continue to rush 4 in those situations and do not keep a spy on the QB. this has happened repeatedly this year in every game against every opposing QB.
Paul in Brooklyn : 10/6/2013 9:30 pm : link
was a very bad call.
They were on the road  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/6/2013 9:32 pm : link
and the Giants offense has been terrible minus the first drive. I think Kelly would have punted to pin us deep.
Marty866b : 10/6/2013 9:35 pm : link
I doubt Kelly would have punted. His forte is being the most aggressive offensive coach. Either way, it was a terrible coaching decision.
Didn't like the decision then, don't like it now  
jcn56 : 10/6/2013 9:36 pm : link
If he was going to go for it on 4th anyway, then he had two plays to get 19 yards. For all the shit that can happen, why not just make them convert the 4th and 4, especially with your defense playing well at that time?
Didn't Kelly punt in a similar scenario  
jcn56 : 10/6/2013 9:36 pm : link
a couple of series' later?
St. Jimmy : 10/6/2013 9:41 pm : link
scared. Looking back he did it in the Redskins' game last year where he punted and they never got the ball back.
It was as bad a call as I've seen.  
Mike in Long Beach : 10/6/2013 9:41 pm : link
First off, I don't agree at all Kelly was going to go for it in that spot.

Second, even if you think there is a slight chance he DOESN'T go for it, you decline the penalty. I understand under most scenarios you take the yards over the loss of down, but in that spot with the idea of a punt very possible (let alone likely, which it was), you make them beat you on 4th and change. Fuck, even if they get it by a little, they're at least 10 yards away from field goal range!

Terrible. Totally in line with this season.
4th & 4  
stretch234 : 10/6/2013 10:02 pm : link
I thought they were going also and Vick was doing that nonsense dive play for 4 or 5. There is no reason a team should be converting a 3rd and 19.

The Giants did have the lead 21-19 in the second half and it took all 6 plays to relinquish that lead
I'm just starting to look around here today  
G Fan : 10/6/2013 10:05 pm : link
....has there been any discussion about T.C.'s decision to punt with around 3 minutes left down 15 points and with no time outs. Granted it was 4th and 28 but why the hell not TRY to pick up the first down and win the game. Why the hell would a coach say "hell, there's no way possible we could convert on 4th and 28 and then score 2 TDs in 3 here's the ball...go ahead and run out the clock". What the hell was his concern....that, if we turned the ball over to Philly on the 30 yard line they might punch over another TD, and god forbid, we'd lose by 22 instead of ONLY 15? Gutless!
I thought it was 4 down territory for Kelly,  
j_rud : 10/6/2013 10:10 pm : link
especially with how they were running early, and I thought it was obvious the Giants were playing for the yardage. They were defending the pass well, why not make Vick pass. They applied pressure and had good coverage downfield, 90% of the QBs in the league don't make that run. Right call, well played, unfortunate outcome due to uncommon athleticism.

And certainly not the bone to pick with so many glaring deficiencies.
TC has had some headscratchers  
newmike2 : 10/6/2013 10:23 pm : link
and for some reason, they seem all the more confusing this season than in previous seasons. I believe that if he did this in past seasons, that call goes his way.
It speaks volumes that he doesn't trust Fewell to be able to stop a 4-4 but trusts him to stop a 3rd and 19 when the team has given up so many big 3rd down conversions.
This and the timeout debacle are indicative of a HC that has lost confidence in his team and the team has lost confidence in him.
Gaining 19 yards  
bignygfan : 10/6/2013 10:25 pm : link
is so much easier than gaining four.

In terms of perception,  
oldutican : 10/6/2013 10:42 pm : link
this game may hurt Coughlin and become a meme about "the old man showing his age." Taking the penalty violated "the book" and using 2 timeouts on one play looks very bad.
Even if they were going to go for it  
micky : 10/7/2013 2:06 pm : link
being so positive in thinking they were going to do so, the question is then: would rather give them 2 chances (accepting the penalty) or 1 chance (on 4th and 4) to get a first?

I'd go for just 1 chance.
Vick shoved that decision right up the coaches' ass.  
Dave in Hoboken : 10/7/2013 2:10 pm : link
I didn't have too much of a problem with it  
Go Terps : 10/7/2013 2:19 pm : link
What was clear based on that decision and the two timeouts burned on a challenge is that decisions are being made from a perspective of desperation. Both the coach and QB are doing things they shouldn't because they are pressing.
According to NFL Advanced Stats  
SwirlingEddie : 10/7/2013 2:23 pm : link
The first down probability went from roughly 4% (4th and 4) to 20% (3rd and 16) for the average team in that situation.
Advanced Stats Probability Calculator - ( New Window )
I can understand Coughlin's thinking  
FJ : 10/7/2013 2:24 pm : link
but I don't/didn't agree with it. I would have declined the penalty.
if they were going to go for it  
fkap : 10/7/2013 2:26 pm : link
on fourth, you're now giving them 2 downs to get it. Assume we held them on the replayed 3rd and they got half the yardage back. They simply go for it again on 4th. why give them 2 shots instead of 1?

The decision was made so quickly, I don't think they stopped to think about it, let alone get consensus.

you want to stop an aggressive coach? make him pay for his aggressiveness.
i yelled at the tv  
blakjedi : 10/7/2013 2:29 pm : link
i couldnt believe he took that...
against any other team or coach  
M in CT : 10/7/2013 2:35 pm : link
you decline the penalty and make them choose on 4th and 4. against this coach, who is known for going for it on 4th down around mid-field, i don't think it was a bad decision at all.

it was a bad decision to use two time outs to challenge a play. but this decision only looks bad because the defense collapsed on the next play.

better yet, why was Jacquian Williams on the sideline rather than spying on Vick? isn't he our fasted LB? and why was the D still in "spy" formation when Nick Foles was behind center?
M in CT  
FJ : 10/7/2013 2:52 pm : link
"...against this coach, who is known for going for it on 4th down around mid-field..."

In 5 NFL games now, Kelly has only had his team "go for it" on fourth down twice (once successfully).

The first time was in the 1st quarter against the Redskins, on a 4th and 1 at the Washington 21 yard line.

The second time was with 2:41 left in the 4th quarter against the Chiefs, on a 4th and 20 at their own 21 yard line, down by 10 points.

We like to think of Chip Kelly as unconventional and unpredictable, but outside of a stupid 2-point conversion trick play in week 1, he's been fairly conventional.
M in CT : 10/7/2013 2:59 pm : link
and what about his 6 years of running the offense at Oregon? pretty sure the Giants do a lot more research on opponents than simply the first four games of the year.

this coach is known for going for it on 4th down in these situations. if he hasn't in the past few weeks, that doesn't cancel out years of using this philosophy.
dorgan : 10/7/2013 2:59 pm : link
that's correct, but his tendency throughout his career has been to go for it on the opponent's side of the 50, on 4th and 4 or less. He's spoken about it with the media and in clinics.

In my opinion taking the penalty  
BigBlueBuff : 10/7/2013 3:02 pm : link
was the wrong decision and while it wasn't the only reason that the Giants lost, it was one of an accumulation of many small things that are killing this team.
I thought it was the wrong decision at the time but  
Jimmy Googs : 10/7/2013 3:18 pm : link
in thinking about it more now, I am fine with Coughlin accepting the penalty. He really was forcing Michael Vick to throw in an obvious long passing situation which should turn out well for a defense, especially with Vick's history of turnovers.

Unfortunately, its 2014 and this team is playing bad so no decision is going to work out in our favor anyway.

You know they would have gotten the 4 yards anyway.
make that 2013..its been a long year!  
Jimmy Googs : 10/7/2013 3:19 pm : link
I've become a firm believer  
SMitch2 : 10/7/2013 3:20 pm : link
that downs are more valuable than yards. My thinking is that every play (i.e. down) has the potential to go the distance. Thus by limiting touches, you have eliminated a full opportunity to score; whereas loss of yards can only make any given opportunity more difficult.

Good defenses are the ones that limit opponent opportunities. If a D forces a 3 & out or 6 and out, then you've only provided your opponent 3, 4, 5, 6 chances to score. If the O is on a 10+ play drive it has now had 10+ chances to score. The stats bear this point out -- the Defenses with the highest number of plays/drive are also the defenses with the highest points/drive -- they're giving up plays AND points -- and it's almost a linear relationship.

This is a big reason why I am philosophically opposed to any Defensive scheme predicated on giving up yards in the hope of offensive errors or turnovers. Invariably, they wind up giving up too many opportunities for their opponent to score -- and the opponent eventually does.
It doesn't matter how likely he was to go for it  
SwirlingEddie : 10/7/2013 3:21 pm : link
It matters how likely he was to make it if he did. As I pointed out above, by taking the penalty we improved the Eagles probability of making a first down by about 5x.
ray in arlington : 10/7/2013 6:05 pm : link
0.04 probability sounds really low for 4th and 4.
This is a league where over 60% of passes are completed and a sack is relatively rare.

It seems to me that punts are being included here. The probability is so low because on 4th and 4 teams are either punting or kicking field goals. If that is the case it is not the probability we should be considering.
on the web site I found a 4th down calculator  
ray in arlington : 10/7/2013 6:10 pm : link
that says the success rate is 0.53, or 53%
That sounds about right to me. Advanced metrics people love going for it on 4th down because of rates like this.
I believed the Eagles would have been stupid not to punt  
mrvax : 10/7/2013 6:14 pm : link
So I also thought the Giants should get their defense off the field knowing how the TOP has been going this year.

I disagreed with Coughlin's decision. Strongly. How do people "know" Kelly was going to go for it at mid-field?
To me, it was 50/50  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 10/7/2013 6:22 pm : link
because I did not have confidence that our defense could stop them at 4th and 4. I guess Tom didn't think so either.

My bigger issue is why there was no spy on Vick from the coin flip. The guy was killing us. Had more rushing yards by half time than we had as a team in about 2 games.

If Vick did not get hurt then who knows how ugly the score would have been.
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