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What's Wrong With Your Giants? - Responses?

Trainmaster : 10/7/2013 2:36 pm
When friends, family, co-workers come up to you with the "Heh, what's wrong with your Giants?" question, how have you been responding? (I assume most / all of us have been receiving that question and we will even more so now that the Giants are 0-5).

Basically there are two types of folks who ask: 1) The jerk big fan of another team who's been looking to needle you for years and 2) the casual fan who is at least semi-honestly surprised and wants some kind of explanation.

For 1) (especially Cowboys, Redskins or Eagles fans), the proper reply is "#$%*@! you, your team can only dream of the success the Giants have had in recent years".

For 2), what have you been saying? Well, we've had a higher than average number of injuries, our GM didn't pay enough attention to our OL and LBs, teams have figured out our game plans ...

Looking for some good, meaningful answers for 2) (I've got 1) covered).
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I dont know about the aging  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 2:52 pm : link
vets argument. Sure there is Tuck but was he really playing at a high level last year? I look at the roster and for every Tuck I see units thats have improved and counteract the supposed "vets" theory. The receiving core is better than last year. Randle is more polished and last year we had Hixon and others going at WR 3. Also Nicks was out most of the year. We are healthy there. The DT are much improved. We were terrible at DT last year and were getting run at right up the gut. We are loaded there now. Its almost impossible to run up the middle on us. The linebackers are better. Paysinger is emerging. Williams is healthy. Still not great but at least some guys are flashing. We had nothing last year. The conerbacks are playing well. The unit overall has improved. People look at the points allowed and blame the defense but how many points have been scored off of turnovers? A ton. Its really not on all the defense.
ZGiants, at least I took some positives out of this game...  
okiegiant : 10/7/2013 2:57 pm : link
and honestly, KC too.

The Carolina game I was digging deep to find any thing good to hang a hat on.

Like I said, there is some talent(great talent)it's just one of those things.

I think by the end of the year we'll see some decent play and kick ourselves for an opportunity lost, because this division should've been easy pickings this year.
The Cowboys just went toe to toe  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 2:57 pm : link
with the best team in the NFL. We turned the ball over 6 times against them. 6. That is freakish and fluky and we are still in it on the last drive of the game. Denver might have the best offense the NFL has seen since the 1999 Rams. They are putting up 50 points every week. The Giants D totally kept Peyton in check for 3 quarters until the wheels fell off. The o-line has been a real problem but penalties, turnovers, and overall mistakes has to be the number one reason we are in this mess.
Too old and too hurt...  
PeterS : 10/7/2013 2:58 pm : link
.
Old veterans and oft-injured players kept  
Patrick77 : 10/7/2013 2:58 pm : link
This team would be exponentionally better going forward if the following players were cut last offseason, cap hits be damned:

Baas
Snee
Diehl
Tuck
Webster
Kiwanuka
Rivers
Rolle

Even if they team was no better than this year's team and was 0-5 without those players, who cares? At least the Giants would be clearing cap room earlier.

Also, Reese go-to move is brining in oft-injured veterans or drafting constantly injured players and hoping they stay healthy. It needs to end.

I would have kept Blackburn and Bennett as well, for what they got paid to leave.
I'd reiterate what John Madden says  
Go Terps : 10/7/2013 2:59 pm : link
In the NFL you're always moving forward or backward. If you think you're maintaining, you're moving backward.

The 2011 Giants had moved forward, largely on the new contributions of Victor Cruz, JPP, Antrel Rolle, William Beatty, and a couple others. Since then, there has been no new growth either from a personnel or coaching innovation standpoint.

This is essentially the 2011 team with 2 years of championship fat, wear and tear, contract issues, and film in other teams' meeting rooms. It's still a Nicks and Cruz game.

Agree  
Johnny5 : 10/7/2013 3:00 pm : link
On both Blackburn and Bennett. Not sure if we had the cap space for Bennett though, not with signing Cruz.
I think the Carolina  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 3:02 pm : link
game is the one exception. We have been in every game aside from Carolina but if you look at that game they totally exploited our line. They attacked a weakness and destroyed Eli. I mentioned the line in another thread. That is clearly the second biggest reason we are 0-5. I just feel we thought Baas and Snee would be able to play this year. Not great, but at least functional. Starting the season without your C, RG, and RT put the team in a tailspin. The young guys are starting to get it together now but it was foolish to think we weren't going to be in serious trouble when that happened. Carolina and their front 7 totally exploited that.
I am shocked  
Chip : 10/7/2013 3:02 pm : link
at how we are playing. It is time to rebuild and that starts up front with the o line two guards and a center. A TE, FB and a RB. Wilson is not the answer this like Rocky Thomson revisited. Hopefully he can turn into David Meggett. On D we need a bunch of LB and a DE. I think we need two new coordinators Gilbride has been here to long and a new approach is warranted and this is the worst Defense I have seen in my 50 years of watching the Giants. I hope Coughlin comes back for one more year he does not deserve to go out like this.
Eh...  
BamaBlue : 10/7/2013 3:04 pm : link
It's someone elses turn to step-up and win a couple of Super Bowls.
aging veteran core,  
Pascal4554 : 10/7/2013 3:04 pm : link
o- line problems, no pass rush, Manning trying to do too much,

basically our problems are 1st down, 2nd down, 3rd down, and 4th down
I have said a couple of times  
Krisqo : 10/7/2013 3:05 pm : link
that the devil gave us Tyree and a title, then gift wrapped Cruz and another title. Now its time for him to collect

Drafting,  
Blackbeard : 10/7/2013 3:05 pm : link
free-agent acquisition and player personnel.
Too many Aged, Halt and Lame.
It depends on who's asking  
Jon from PA : 10/7/2013 3:08 pm : link
if it's someone just making chit chat, I just say we stink this year. If it's someone I know I can talk football with, I'll go into some detail.
I dont agree with all of those  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 3:09 pm : link
players. We'd be in a lot more trouble without Rolle then with him. Next year is the year to restructure or re-do his contract. Rivers? He's making peanuts and is a non factor. Snee and Baas were injured an unable to play. Their replacements were coming but I dont think they expected Snee to be ready to retire at the start of 2013. It should have been a smoother transition. Webster? He was playing fantastic this year before pulling his groin. Bad example. There are plenty of guys playing better and emerging from last year. Randle, Wilson, Linval, Paysinger, Prince, Will Hill, ect.
responses are team specific  
bc4life : 10/7/2013 3:13 pm : link
so it depends on who says it -

but, two biggest issues - Snee and Baas unable to play and unreliable replacements.

And, no pass rush - absent those two problems - Giants, at worst, are 2-3.
I think most of us can agree  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 3:14 pm : link
Turnovers and mistakes have done us in at least 4 of the 5 games we've played. Changing over the roster isn't going to fix that. Eli and the running backs like Wilson aren't going anywhere and they are the biggest culprits. I dont think its time to rebuild. Eli is still in his prime. We just need to retool and fix what fell apart this year, namely the offensive line and TE. Teams have a perfect storm of disaster happen and sometimes this is the result. The Saints were terrible year and this year are back with largely the same roster. We've watched teams like the Eagles and Cowboys have terrible off years and come right back the following year. We'll be back. I do agree with getting a new defensive coordinator though but the unit I think has played better this year.
more as a very small indication or symptom rather than as a cause  
alligatorpie : 10/7/2013 3:17 pm : link
the cutting of blackburn, austin and sash showed a little lack of fidelity on top that is out of character on this team.

we would not be a marginally or more worse team with those players

conversely for 3 or 4 years it looked like we had targeted guards in rounds 2 or 3 only to see them get picked above our spots (failure to see trends, asses value)

keeping players as starters who did not deserve to be so despite the screaming evidence
regarding unit culpability  
alligatorpie : 10/7/2013 3:20 pm : link
it looks like offensive miscues are more to blame for losses.

However, we as giants fans expect an attacking defense, that's a big part of what many, many of us signed up for.

so, the lack of one seems less forgivable,

even in the face of the facts, miscues on offense and a weak o line in a system that needs a great one to win
Come on...  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 3:22 pm : link
people were screaming for the releases of Blackburn and Austin. We are much better at DT this year. I think the linebackers have improved as well. You keep Blackburn and cut a Paysinger or Herzlich? I don't. Sash? Non factor. The Giants do have a lot of youth on the roster and have trusted the them. Other than Tuck I really dont get the argument. Even with Tuck, the Giants took Moore very high as his replacement. He got hurt early but I think that argument is weak.
We haven't been an attacking  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 3:24 pm : link
defense since Spags left. Its not Fewell's style. We've been a bend but dont break defense that lives off the turnover. I dont like it but that's not on the players and we did win a SeuperBowl doing it that way. That sort of defense is designed to work with an offense that puts up a lot of points. Its not going to work if we aren't scoring.
I tell them the truth as I see it:  
Mark C : 10/7/2013 3:30 pm : link
This season is just another step on the road to their next championship.
We would be worse with Austin and Sash IMO  
Patrick77 : 10/7/2013 3:37 pm : link
We would be better with Blackburn over Rivers or Bradford.

Austin can't replace any DT on the roster, maybe Rogers. Sash could maybe replace Mundy, but not likely IMO.
This team is still littered with talent  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 3:37 pm : link
Your not going to have young studs in every unit. You need some cheap vets to fill out the roster. We have outstanding talent at the skill positions on offense and I like the talent on our defense. I love the whole d-line. JPP just needs to get healthy. I like what Paysinger's and a few of the LBers are doing. The unit was missing a vet in the middle. I think Beason could give us that. I like our secondary. It would have been even better had we not lost Stevie Brown for the year. Not sure if Thomas was hurt this week but he's been a pleasant surprise and Prince has been fantastic. Webster was playing well too before he got hurt. We just need to develop a TE(Robinson/ Donell hurt) and fix the o-line.
@ Krisqo...freakiest part of that commercial for me:  
FranknWeezer : 10/7/2013 3:39 pm : link
I just say  
giantgiantfan : 10/7/2013 3:40 pm : link
the truth, they fucking suck. If they press pass that I point to the 2 superbowls (1 of which being one of the greatest SBs ever), which is especially awesome if their team has none or hasn't won a superbowl in a very long time.
Thats funny to me...  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 3:41 pm : link
everyone's screaming that aging vets are clogging younger players yet we wanted to keep Blackburn? That's exactly what everyone didn't want to do. Blackburn is a nice blue collar guy but he was slow and was not the answer. It was right to roll the dice with Herzlich. That hasn't worked out but we are playing 2 Lbers lately anyway. Last week it was Williams and Paysinger. This week it was Paysinger and Rivers. We went out and acquired Beason who is light years better than anyone we've had in years if he's even remotely healthy.
I just kind of shrug  
pjcas18 : 10/7/2013 3:41 pm : link
and walk away muttering nothing really coherent.
Zgiants  
Patrick77 : 10/7/2013 3:45 pm : link
That is the problem in a nutshell. If this entire current team was 100% healthy they would win games. If Snee, Baas, Diehl, Taylor, Robinson, Brown, Webster, Hosley, Beason, Thomas, Ross, and everyone else were 100% healthy this team would be very good IMO. The fact is every team gets injured and has to play through it. The Giants love bringing in/keeping oft-injured players and relying on them as key contributors.
Patrick  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 3:56 pm : link
that still has nothing to do with the biggest problem up until this point and that is turnovers and mistakes. Shave off even a few of the hundreds of turnovers we've given up and we are likely 2-3 or 3-2 right now. The fist Cowboy game and Eagles game yesterday especially stand out. So we are likely 2-0 in the division as well.

The o-line fell apart with the losses of Snee and Baas but what team could handle that unexpectedly after the first week? Most people think Mosley and Brewer are solid backups and almost ready to start. We already rolled the dice at RT with Pugh as a rookie. Beatty is a young LT. You need some vets on the line. I think they expected Baas and Snee to at least play average enough until the replacements were ready. Obviously we disaster hit but your not going to have starting regulars ready to go on any bench in the NFL. Maybe one but not 3.
.  
Patrick77 : 10/7/2013 4:02 pm : link
The Raiders, Jaguars, and Seahawks have more injured offensive lines than the Giants. The Giants aren't just a couple of turnovers away from 2-3 wins. They just aren't, I don't know how you can view the team that way. Even if you were to take away 2 turnovers in each game, do you really think the Giants do anything with those 2 extra possessions other than punt in almost every case?

The Giants have a bad kicker, bad special teams, no pass rush, no offensive line, no pass blocking or run blocking at any position, little understanding of the offense by new/young players, an erratic QB, and poor coaching, execution, and effort.

This team is bad, and needed to a lot of these oft-injured players and older players gone last year or last offseason.
Do you have any idea  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 4:06 pm : link
how many points have been scored off of turnovers? Take one turnover off the Dallas game and there is a good chance we win that game. Its not just the turnovers either. Its mistakes in general. Every good return gets called back to a penalty. Every single drive gets stalled by stupid penalties giving Eli third and long. When Eli's on the running backs are fumbling. When the backs hold on to the ball Eli turns it over. Its been a disaster but we have shot ourselves in the foot in every game outside of Carolina. Even Coughlin said the Eagles didn't beat us yesterday, we beat ourselves.
The Raiders and Jaguars?  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 4:07 pm : link
lol. Are you serious? great exmple. Seahawks? Dont think they suddenly lost 3 starters in a week or two.
I'm saying  
Arcanum : 10/7/2013 4:09 pm : link
The same shit Eric. Personally, I think the league has us figured us out. And it's time for changes. I hate to see Coughlin go, but we have to much talent to be playing this bad.
What's wrong?  
Marty866b : 10/7/2013 4:10 pm : link
EVERYTHING!
I have two responses:  
jerseyboyLAX : 10/7/2013 4:14 pm : link
1) "it's not our year"

2) "It's David Baas' fault. We paid too much for him, he's always hurt, he sucks and his suckitude spread to the whole OLine and then the rest of the team. This is all his fault, but, well... it's also on us for signing him."

I use #1 mostly
I  
CapeGman : 10/7/2013 4:19 pm : link
say that the game is won at the line of scrimmage. Both our lines for the most part are playing like a@@.
Z yes I am serious  
Patrick77 : 10/7/2013 4:21 pm : link
Their offensive lines are outplaying the Giants current group. The Raiders start Mccants, a guy cut from the Giants.
The Raiders even can win games weirdly enough. The Seahawks have had 3 starters out.

So "lol, are you serious?" all you want. Some of us actually watch other NFL teams play.
Patrick  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 5:32 pm : link
I'm not trying to be disrespectful but your pointing to a team that's 0-5 and worst then we are as a team that has been struck by o-line problems. I don't follow your logic. If anything your strengthening my point. I'll give you Seattle though although they didn't lose 3 starters in a week or two.
I told them it's Reese's Algebra  
jcn56 : 10/7/2013 5:34 pm : link
Win a SB every 4 years. 2007 -> 2011 -> see you in 2015.
And again....  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 5:39 pm : link
Even with the hell that's been unleashed on the line it's starting to balance out. It's not as bad as it was a few weeks ago. It still comes down to penalties and mistakes for me. We've been in every game except Carolina. If the roster was so void of talent that wouldn't be the case.
I usually just say…...  
Simms11 : 10/7/2013 5:50 pm : link
they suck - worst Giants team I've ever seen.
Bingo  
Kyle : 10/7/2013 5:53 pm : link
Quote:
This is essentially the 2011 team with 2 years of championship fat, wear and tear, contract issues, and film in other teams' meeting rooms.


We decided to take two additional runs with the same 9-7 football team that managed to morph into a playoff juggernaut, doubling down on what got us there, rather than taking a rather harsh but needed self-assessment.

We won the SB in a low percentage manner, and decided that was somehow the best way moving forward to maximize our chances because it had actually worked, and therefore it must have been the best way.
^ That's a really great  
bigbluehoya : 10/7/2013 5:56 pm : link
Articulation of exactly how I feel about the situation.
Yes.  
ZGiants98 : 10/7/2013 6:07 pm : link
The Giants won the SuperBowl in 2011 and decided they did it and no changes were needed. They re-signed Boley. They re-signed Canty. They re-signed Bradshaw. They didn't have two drafts focusing on key areas of improvement like the o-line. They didn't focus on improving a huge weakness last year at DT. They re-signed Phillips. Yep they completely rested on their laurels.
Works for both #1 and #2  
mrvax : 10/7/2013 6:21 pm : link
"Well, you can't win the Superbowl every year. Time to rebuild."
Very good summary Terps:  
mrvax : 10/7/2013 6:24 pm : link
Quote:
This is essentially the 2011 team with 2 years of championship fat, wear and tear, contract issues, and film in other teams' meeting rooms. It's still a Nicks and Cruz game.

The issues  
RB^2 : 10/7/2013 6:29 pm : link
are beginning to look systemic in nature, which is troubling. When you're losing by 20 points a game, it's not just a break here and there.
I've been asked - by people who are honestly curious...  
baadbill : 10/7/2013 8:25 pm : link
Answer is straight forward.

1. Giants organization has failed totally when it comes to adding young talent. They have virtually nothing to show for the drafts and free agency over the past few years.

2. This summer GM put a count down clock in the Giants locker room because he thought the team he had assembled was a legitimate contender to be the first team in NFL history to play a SB in its own stadium. In other words, the single most important evaluator of talent for the team, didn't have a clue how little talent there was on his own team.

End of story.
BaadBill  
Trainmaster : 10/8/2013 11:59 am : link
summed it up very well.

We were "patching" when we needed some selected demolition and rebuilding. Now it's time to essentially bulldoze the whole thing (save Eli, Cruz, Prince, and maybe Randle and JPP).
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