Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Clegg WSJ: Giants' Aging Roster Was Built to Crash

Defenderdawg : 10/9/2013 10:33 pm
"To keep their championship core intact, the Giants have constructed a team that features a handful of household names alongside a large collection of unknowns.

In addition to Manning, whose salary cap figure of $20.85 million is the NFL's highest, the lavish deals given to guard Chris Snee and safety Antrel Rolle mean almost one third of the team's salary cap space is allocated to three players.

When the salaries of veteran defensive ends Justin Tuck and Mathias Kiwanuka, cornerback Corey Webster and center David Baas are added to that, the seven players account for roughly half of the Giants' $123 million payroll. No team spends a higher percentage of its salary cap on its seven best-paid players according to Spotrac, a website that compiles salary data on all 32 NFL teams.

The upshot is a roster devoid of depth, with little money available for mid-level players."
Link - ( New Window )
It was built for a 1 year window.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/9/2013 10:34 pm : link
.
Building around a core of players is not a bad idea  
Ben in Tampa : 10/9/2013 10:37 pm : link
But Snee, Tuck, Kiwi, Baas and Webster are always injured, below average players or both. Eli and Rolle aren't playing at a top level either.

Its not that the money is tied up in seven players, its that those seven players aren't performing to their paycheck.
agree  
spike : 10/9/2013 10:38 pm : link
with the article.

Hopefully the cap space issue will be resolved next season.
Eli  
PaulN : 10/9/2013 10:45 pm : link
Gets paid higher then any other QB, yet he is not nearly the best, only the fucking Giants could fuck that up.
Some stretches  
Phil S : 10/9/2013 10:46 pm : link
Joseph and Pugh are not the problems.
Yeah you're right.  
Geomon : 10/9/2013 10:50 pm : link
In comment 11266362 PaulN said:
Quote:
Gets paid higher then any other QB, yet he is not nearly the best, only the fucking Giants could fuck that up.


I mean what was the point of giving him all of that money after 2 Super Bowls? We are really dumb sons of bitches.
Man I bet you can't find too many "sure you bring Tuck back" guys now  
Mason : 10/9/2013 10:50 pm : link
Man, have they turned on him so quickly. Just like the people that belittle Francesa when he brought up Snee retirement last year. smh.
PaulN: Manning's AAV on his contract (if he sees it through) is a  
Riggies : 10/9/2013 10:54 pm : link
shade under $16M. His cap hit of $20M+ is because of how it was originally slightly backloaded, when it was crafted, and recent restructures.

The Giants didn't fuck anything up by giving him that deal, generally speaking.
Outside  
Arcanum : 10/9/2013 10:56 pm : link
Of the o line and LB position, I think the Giants are in pretty good shape.
Hindsight is 20/20...  
tb_21 : 10/9/2013 11:03 pm : link
...easy to write an article like this when the team is 0-5.
RE: Outside  
81_Great_Dane : 10/9/2013 11:10 pm : link
In comment 11266378 Arcanum said:
Quote:
Of the o line and LB position, I think the Giants are in pretty good shape.


I disagree. In addition to OL and LB:
RB - dangerously thin, even when Wilson and Brown are healthy.
TE - highly questionable, though Donnell and Robinson may turn out to be quality players.
DE - uncertain, since the Giants' scheme depends on star-level production from the DEs but JPP hasn't come all the way back from his back troubles, Kiwanuka and Tuck are only average now, and we don't know what we have in Moore.
CB - Amukamara and pray for rain.
S - Will Hill had a great game Sunday. If that's who he is, and he can keep his head screwed on straight, they have a player. Rolle needs to go. Who knows what they have in Taylor, and who knows who Stevie Brown will be post-ACL.
No, it was designed to win last year  
BigBlueBuff : 10/9/2013 11:20 pm : link
and when they didn't, they began purging some of the contracts to help manage dead money. The releases of Canty, Boley, Bradshaw, etc. within a few days was a pretty big clue.

What I honestly believe is that they thought that they could go with a half measure, keep a competive core intact, and rebuild on the fly. In retrospect, they should have gutted the veterans back in February and just taken their lumps this season anyway.

Hindsight is 20/20
Not a whole lot to argue with.  
TC : 10/9/2013 11:26 pm : link
League-high, 1-year contracts for vet min. = The Rent-A-Wreck strategy.
81GD,  
TC : 10/9/2013 11:38 pm : link
I read it pretty much as you do, except you forgot LB and most of the OL. But I'm more optimistic about Moore, and think JPP will again be productive. Kiwi and Tuck may be nearing the end.
Eli won a SB with the worst RB core in the  
bradshaw44 : 10/10/2013 12:55 am : link
League. He's that good.
RE: 81GD,  
81_Great_Dane : 10/10/2013 2:15 am : link
In comment 11266414 TC said:
Quote:
I read it pretty much as you do, except you forgot LB and most of the OL. But I'm more optimistic about Moore, and think JPP will again be productive. Kiwi and Tuck may be nearing the end.
I didn't overlook OL and LB; the post I was responding to mentioned those positions and I was ticking off the positions in addition to OL and LB that have problems.

Basically, I think the Giants are thin or questionable almost everywhere on offense and defense except DT and WR. They even lack depth at QB, though I think they moved to address that when they drafted Nassib. On special teams, they have a great KR in Wilson, if they use him there; a good punter; and an outstanding long snapper. They're only ok at PR and gunner.
In fairness, who could have predicted that Tuck and JPP,  
Reese's Pieces : 10/10/2013 3:02 am : link
who played like tigers in the 2nd Super Bowl run, would turn into koala bears the following year. Pierre-Paul was supposed to be a dominant defensive player for years to come. No excuse with Kiwanuka. He never produced much but few objected when he received a fat contract extension. I didn't.

I think the secondary would be fine if the injuries hadn't hit. Imagine Rolle, Brown, and Hill as the trio of safeties. Put Kenny Phillips In the mix if he hadn't re-injured the knee after two solid productive years in 2010 and 2011.

If they had kept Boley and Blackburn they could have gotten by another year at linebacker while they looked for replacements.

Can't say much for the handling of the offensive line. The veterans broke down all at once at ages not that advanced for O-Linemen. Baas may have been Reese's worst mistake, but everyone makes mistakes.

A lot of the bad moves that they made, such as releasing Boley and Bradshaw, may just have been that they couldn't even afford them under the salary cap.

And who's fault is that?
PaulN  
Modus Operandi : 10/10/2013 4:55 am : link
I guess you missed the part about Eli's previous restructures, which pushed bigger cap hits unto future years...like this one?
In hindsight  
AnnapolisMike : 10/10/2013 5:32 am : link
I think the Giants thought they could be competitive in a year the super bowl was being held in their stadium. They probably held onto some guys and crossed their collective fingers. Needless to say it did not work out.

I do think they rightly expected to get more out of the guys on the offensive line. 31 is not really old for an offensive lineman. I think the offensive line will come together a bit as the year moves on...and I would not be surprised to see the team with 5 wins, which would it better than the alternative of nothing coming together as the season progresses.

We will see
RE: No, it was designed to win last year  
jcn56 : 10/10/2013 7:37 am : link
In comment 11266402 BigBlueBuff said:
Quote:
and when they didn't, they began purging some of the contracts to help manage dead money. The releases of Canty, Boley, Bradshaw, etc. within a few days was a pretty big clue.

What I honestly believe is that they thought that they could go with a half measure, keep a competive core intact, and rebuild on the fly. In retrospect, they should have gutted the veterans back in February and just taken their lumps this season anyway.

Hindsight is 20/20


100% agreed. We tried for one last hurrah with the core, and it was one year too late. A calculated risk that backfired. Luckily, it seems as if the cap planning is strategically sound and we can cut bait and rebuild in the offseason without too much pain. Unfortunately, it means a wasted year of Eli's prime.

Hard to do it any other way with a team that won two championships. Newsome looks like he took the other approach (blow it up early) in Baltimore, but the early returns aren't all that promising either. Might just be that the hangover year is the best time to rebuild.
Yeah right..  
JCin332 : 10/10/2013 7:49 am : link
Quote:
The Giants allowed productive contributors such as tight end Martellus Bennett, defensive tackle Chris Canty and linebacker Michael Boley to depart in free agency.


Canty and Boley were terrible last year..in fact Boley was on the street until a couple weeks ago..
Arc....Seriously?  
Doomster : 10/10/2013 7:58 am : link
Outside
Arcanum : 10/9/2013 10:56 pm : link : reply
Of the o line and LB position, I think the Giants are in pretty good shape.


I agree with Great Dane.....there are more holes on this team than Swiss Cheese....

And we are depending on the same people, who created these holes, to fill them?
You guys like to refer to them as the guys 'who created these holes'  
jcn56 : 10/10/2013 8:16 am : link
I like to think of them as 'the architects of two world champions'.

A matter of perspective.

As far as how the holes grew - that's a by-product of success and time. Guys got older faster than could be expected (look at the age that some other OG and DE retire and then look up how old Snee and Tuck are). Kenny Phillips was technically a casualty last year, thanks to a degenerative knee condition that couldn't be predicted. We picked a safety high to help offset that, and the guy never stepped on the field because he was critically injured in a non-football accident. Our expensive OL FA acquisition has been perpetually injured. These items are nothing but dumb luck.

Some of the holes are definitely because of misfires. These guys certainly have their faults, and one of the biggest is their inability to scout and draft/sign LBs. We've drafted OL that haven't been able to stay on the field; IMO, the jury is out here, because we haven't seen these guys exposed to live reps to judge them. It's altogether possible though that the OL is another area where Reese and co. misfired.
Bad  
AcidTest : 10/10/2013 8:22 am : link
cap management, tying up so much in so few, especially since they are aging, injured veterans. That's on Reese.
You guys make it sound as if cap management around  
jcn56 : 10/10/2013 8:28 am : link
the league is somehow evenly distributed throughout the roster.

Do you really think it's different elsewhere with an established franchise QB? I'd bet if you looked around the league and found a franchise QB on a team that has experienced some success that you'd see a similar situation, that 3-4 players account for 30% of the cap or more.

We're having an entirely different conversation if Snee doesn't fall apart early and Baas isn't constantly injured.
To quote Tom Cruise in Cocktail  
BeerFridge : 10/10/2013 8:49 am : link
Everything ends badly, or else it wouldn't end.
How stupid.  
Big Blue '56 : 10/10/2013 9:05 am : link
We still have young core players and in today's NFL, teams with core players in tact, re-tool quickly. Them thar the facts, imv..

This isn't the 1961-1963 Giants who aged and did nothing about it until it was too late..

Pre-FA you rebuilt..This era, you re-tool, IF, IF, you have core players young enough and in tact, which we do
But, just who are these "core" players?  
Doomster : 10/10/2013 9:56 am : link
Who on the OL? Beatty? Another potential contract mistake? Pugh? Based on 5 games? I mean if he was lights out yes, but he is a rookie, having an average season....

No TE's....Wilson may prove to be a mistake....Will Nicks be back?

Defensive line? Can JPP come back? Hankins? Moore? Pure speculation....

NO LB'ers.....Rolle will not take a pay cut.....Stevie "ACL" Brown? Will "Stay Klean" Hill?

Where is this core? We have relied on guys who can't stay on the field....bring them back?

I agree, Reese made the mistake of keeping this team together after the '11 season, to try and repeat....it was either that or start to retool, and he chose wrong....
PaulN  
Ace718 : 10/10/2013 10:02 am : link
Yep. "Only the fuckin Giants could fuck this up." What has this team achieved over the last 10 years? Nothing by fuck ups......
Generally Agree.  
old man : 10/10/2013 10:39 am : link
Didn't read article, but the headline says what we BBIers have said for a few years. The organization was 1 or 2 years behind in addressing the 'age' issue. They started a little this past offseason(though it was more salary than age issue), but, as the saying goes: 'You snooze, you LOSE'.They snoozed.They lose.
Barring a very major miracle, we are picking top 10 or better?,and also likely to make almost all the moves in Optimus's salary cap/cut analysis recently, in a good draft year, and, for + or -, some part of a new coaching staff.
In today's NFL, quick turnarounds can happen.
THis reminds me somewhat of the collapse  
DP : 10/10/2013 10:40 am : link
the Giants had in 1964. As BB56 says these are different eras, but the similarity with old players just growing old is there.
Doomy, depends on how you feel about these players, but here goes:  
Big Blue '56 : 10/10/2013 10:53 am : link
Offense: Eli, Wilson, Cruz, Randle, Nicks(but let's assume he's gone), Beatty(unless he really declines), Pugh, Robinson at TE, Perhaps Donnell, but they might upgrade.

Defense: JPP, LinJo, Hankins, Moore, Hill, Prince, Hosley, Perhaps Stevie Brown

Probably left out some, but enough talent to fill in with FAs as needed and of course the draft, UDFAs and FA..

A major piece of  
Pete in MD : 10/10/2013 10:57 am : link
the formula is counting on the younger, lower-paid players to step-in when the aging vets start to decline. So far, this hasn't really happened this season.
Sounds like those Cowboy teams  
PeterS : 10/10/2013 11:01 am : link
that sunk all their money into 3-4 players and one a few SB's back in the '90s.

The plan would have worked had it not been for debilitating injuries to guys like Snee, Tuck and Webster.
they are still relying on the aging vets  
spike : 10/10/2013 11:01 am : link
until they cant walk anymore without getting the youngsters ready for showtime.
They have crashed and could go to the bottom of the tank.  
chops : 10/10/2013 11:02 am : link
That's what happens when you have high priced players, below level
performances, below average backups, and those dreaded injuries.
There isn't anyone here or at the WSJ  
HomerJones45 : 10/10/2013 11:03 am : link
who objected at the time. Hindsight is always 20-20.
know who you can't win with?  
Dylan fan : 10/10/2013 12:28 pm : link
Shitheads like Doomster. His non-stop rant: Reese should have gotten rid of the old guys after the SB b/c he should've somehow known that they would suck & be injured all the time, & should've replaced them w/ young players picked last in each round, so there's no way they could be counted on to perform well either. So Reese is supposed to have a crystal ball for old players but the crystal ball doesn't work for young players. In other words, nothing Reese could have done or will ever do will satisfy Doomster.

Meanwhile, of the young guys who Doomster rants that we don't know a damn thing about, Moore missed most of training camp & the 1st couple of games with a shoulder injury. Robinson missed most of training camp & each game w/ a foot injury. Taylor missed most of training camp & each game w/ all sorts of stuff. Hosley has missed more games than he's played. It's Reese's fault that he didn't make sure that Chad Jones knew how to drive before drafting him. It was Reese's fault that Connor, who looked to be better (if only slightly) than Blackburn, didn't last one game. It was Reese's fault that Andre Brown broke his leg 2 years in a row (this time much earlier) & that the Stevie Brown, w/ the most Giants INTs in the last 30 years, didn't make it out of pre-season. It was Reese's fault that Bennett got $5 million/year from the Bears.

And where were the reliable backups to all theose injured players supposed to come from? 5th-7th round picks that every GM "blows" every year?
Look at the KC Chiefs  
dcp : 10/10/2013 1:05 pm : link
from last year to now. No reason with the core players on the roster that the Giants could not duplicate by dropping old players, drafting well and a couple free agent additions.
Aging Roster  
JohnnyG : 10/10/2013 1:43 pm : link
The older players were , at one time , the best players but now they are mediocre at best. Not enough talented younger players to add to the mix. So here we have older players not good enough anymore, younger players with no talent and only a small handful of young players who can play but dont get enough playing time because nobody wants to sit the big name old guys.
KC had 6 Pro Bowl players  
PEEJ : 10/10/2013 1:50 pm : link
last year. How many does this Giant team have?
Back to the Corner