Barnwell Grantland: The New York (Football) Injured Giants

without any comparisons with other teams is somewhat meaningless. Football players get injured and we hear the average NFL career is less than 5 years. Therefore, why should we be surprised that most of the 2007 draft class is no longer playing football 6+ seasons later?

I think Reese does have the tendency to "overthink the room" regarding drafting players projected to be early round picks who fall due to injury concerns or being "too raw".

I'm dating myself, but when I think of Reese's drafts I think about the 70s TV show The Six Million Dollar Man "We can rebuild him ... make him better than he was ...".

Too much reliance on players magically getting healthy or getting "coached up". Draft solid, healthy players with excellent in game performance. I think Pugh more fits this mold, so maybe Reese is learning although D. Moore is more of the former.

In comment 11267079 Eric from BBI said:

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are hardly overworked anymore...if anything, they are underworked. But that overview is accurate and pretty depressing. How our opinions changes in a matter of months.

Couldn't agree more. There, in a nutshell, is the Giants problem. Doesn't put a favorable light on the Reese.

is only focusing on the draft classes and UDFA's. During the same time period covered by the article, we could include Osi missing the 2008 season with a knee injury, Hixon tearing his ACL twice, Hedgecock retiring early, and of course Tuck battling seemingly 4-5 different injuries ever year during the same time period covered by the article.

Again, is this more or less than what the average teams had to deal with? Not sure. But it sure seems like a lot.

there are only 12 players still on the roster, and 4 are from 2011. Just 5 of the 12 are starters.

In comment 11267061 giantfanboy said:

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I'm aware of the injury factor, the number of IRs, which is a cancer, let's face it, It's something that has to be corrected. It's a mental thing, I believe, as much as anything else.

I see what you did there giantfanboy! YOU! You are GOOD!

not IR. Injury settlement. Out of football.

Truthfully, most of them washed out because they weren't good players.

makes more sense that we haven't won a playoff game in any other year under T.C.

recall that we had just won a Super Bowl, we had Bradshaw, Ward and Jacobs (and Ware was well thought of). Maybe the value was there but it did not appear like RB would be a need for a long while---and it wasn't.

handwriting was on the wall with O'Hara.

this was a first guess by many, not a second guess

In comment 11267342 mort christenson said:

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recall that we had just won a Super Bowl, we had Bradshaw, Ward and Jacobs (and Ware was well thought of). Maybe the value was there but it did not appear like RB would be a need for a long while---and it wasn't.

Mort it can be said with the Nassib pick (don't need..Eli) this past one. Just saying

Reese's B.P.A. strategy out the window.

Passing on McCoy to grab Sintim. I know it was posted that hindsight 20/20 and I agree, but if he truly drafted BPA McCoy would've been the pick. JMHO

In comment 11267332 Victor in CT said:

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Truthfully, most of them washed out because they weren't good players.

Really? Who? Steve Smith? Kenny Phillips? Mario Manningham? These guys washed out because they weren't good to begin with?

Jay Alford was showing promise as a rotational DT when he got hurt, enough to merit another team picking him up after. Jake Ballard showed enough for the Pats to claim him off waivers. Hell, even the Eagles tried Steve Smith and Kenny Phillips to see if they had anything left.

Reading the article and being left with the impression that Reese isn't picking talented players means you're missing the point. We've got a seemingly disproportional number of players getting hurt and either having their careers completely cut short or limiting their production.

Is that on Reese? Does he pick guys who get hurt, or who have injury histories? In some cases he does, in others that doesn't seem warranted. Is it Coughlin? Is it the turf? The training regimen? Their diets? Their shoes? Or is there no correlation whatsoever and it's just dumb luck?

in a vacuum, but the article just seems depressing. Either way, I wouldn't call it "worthless drivel."

I would like to see comparisons with other teams, specifically the Jets to see if perhaps our field turf is part of the problem. it could also be the turf we use in the practice facility.

in the past 2 seasons they've played more football than any team except the Patriots and they've had the toughest opponents.

Barden, Beckham, Bomar, Wright, Woodson, Dillard, Petrus, Tracy, Austin, Jernigan, G. Jones, Sash, Scott?

I only left Hosley (and the other 2012 picks)off that list because it was last year but I think he isn't very good.

Do you realize that Prince is the only top flight player from the 2011 draft on the team? Brewer can't crack the lineup and Williams is mediocre at best? Or that from 2009-2012 (4 draft classes) that not ONE player from Round 3 down has become even an average starter?

your last statement is the one that I blame Reese the most.

While finding the next pro-bowler in Rd 1 and 2 is clearly much harder than we would all agree, how can Reese not pick guys in Rd 3 and later that just become avg. starters or even reliable backups?

In comment 11267491 Jimmy Googs said:

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your last statement is the one that I blame Reese the most. While finding the next pro-bowler in Rd 1 and 2 is clearly much harder than we would all agree, how can Reese not pick guys in Rd 3 and later that just become avg. starters or even reliable backups?

I know Jimmy. And that's why the special teams suck too. They aren't getting anything from the middle and late rounds.

Before the season started, how many people on here thought the Giants had a level of talent to start 0-5? (how many think that now is a question for some other time).

But if you didn't think that then, then where did the talented players come from to make you think they would do better? Is the mix on this team any different than that on any other team? Are you wrong now about the talent level on the team, or were you wrong at the beginning of the season?

My notion is that teams that have good luck with injuries tend to have good seasons, teams that have bad luck with injuries tend to have bad seasons. Talent matters, but sometimes less than people think. Was it the Giants style of drafting that made our 3rd round draft choice wind up in an auto accident? If the Giants were in the AFC East instead of the Patriots, would they seem like a better team because of the inferior competition? Who knows? we had enough talent and enough luck to win 2 Superbowls in the last decade, and who knows when that will happen again? It's a rough ride......

In comment 11267501 Bob from Massachusetts said:

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Before the season started, how many people on here thought the Giants had a level of talent to start 0-5? (how many think that now is a question for some other time). But if you didn't think that then, then where did the talented players come from to make you think they would do better? Is the mix on this team any different than that on any other team? Are you wrong now about the talent level on the team, or were you wrong at the beginning of the season? My notion is that teams that have good luck with injuries tend to have good seasons, teams that have bad luck with injuries tend to have bad seasons. Talent matters, but sometimes less than people think. Was it the Giants style of drafting that made our 3rd round draft choice wind up in an auto accident? If the Giants were in the AFC East instead of the Patriots, would they seem like a better team because of the inferior competition? Who knows? we had enough talent and enough luck to win 2 Superbowls in the last decade, and who knows when that will happen again? It's a rough ride......

I think the old guys just got older, and the potential replacements (Brewer, etc) have not stepped up.

Who were available in the first were 1 Hakeem Nicks and close 2nd was McCoy. Both were in the top 10 for the whole draft for me. No way would have Ward prevented me from grabbing a talent like that.

In comment 11267368 micky said:

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In comment 11267342 mort christenson said: Quote: recall that we had just won a Super Bowl, we had Bradshaw, Ward and Jacobs (and Ware was well thought of). Maybe the value was there but it did not appear like RB would be a need for a long while---and it wasn't. Mort it can be said with the Nassib pick (don't need..Eli) this past one. Just saying

Micky: Difference is (1) place in the draft and (2) definition of need.

Arguably there is a need for a quality backup and a bonus would be one who in 3-4 years might be able to replace a then 37 year old QB. If you are/were content with Painter/Carr, then it was unnecessary. But I don't think we were secure w/Carr and I am sure we're not with Painter.

And if you're going to quibble about taking someone with a higher grade than the spot in the draft, it would be more likely a problem in the 2nd (where presumably there would not be such a huge delta) then in the 4th round where the risks are not as great anyway.

In comment 11267572 Hades07 said:

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Who were available in the first were 1 Hakeem Nicks and close 2nd was McCoy. Both were in the top 10 for the whole draft for me. No way would have Ward prevented me from grabbing a talent like that.

That is fair but again, we were at least 3 deep in RBs. As well, the McCoy style was different and probably not as clean a fit. So their grade might not be as high. Finally, fans fall in love with skill position players because it's much easier for them to see the tangible production than almost any other position. So while I respect your "grades", I'm not sure that really is relevant.

In comment 11267446 Victor in CT said:

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Or that from 2009-2012 (4 draft classes) that not ONE player from Round 3 down has become even an average starter?

I'd point to 2008 onwards when Ross took over. 2007 Reese did his GM job with his Director of College Scouting. After 2007 draft, Ross was hired, and Ross's first draft was 2008. It's not coincidence that since then our drafts have had a lot of issues from rounds 2-5.

.

I don't grade players. Each draft I make a list of 10 players who when careers are all done they will have the best careers of the class. Those 2 were on that list. As a former OL I don't only look at skill players.

When Reese was Director of college scouting we drafted guys that contributed big time to our teams. We had less busts as well. Another key thing was 2007. That was a big time draft where we hit on a lot of players. He was the GM then, AND did his old job and managed to come up with a great draft whose players contributed to our Sb team.

Ross took over in 2008 and since then how many swing and misses have we had rounds 2-5? Below are the drafts from Ross's tenure here.

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2011 Rnd Name College Note 1 Prince Amukamara Nebraska 2 Marvin Austin North Carolina 3 Jerrel Jernigan Troy 4 James Brewer Indiana 6 Greg Jones Michigan State 6 Tyler Sash Iowa 6 Jacquian Williams South Florida 7 Da'Rel Scott Maryland 2010 Rnd Name College Note 1 Jason Pierre-Paul South Florida 2 Linval Joseph East Carolina 3 Chad Jones LSU 4 Phillip Dillard Nebraska 5 Mitch Petrus Arkansas 6 Adrian Tracy William & Mary 7 Matt Dodge East Carolina 2009 Rnd Name College Note 1 Hakeem Nicks North Carolina 2 Clint Sintim Virginia 2 William Beatty Connecticut 3 Travis Beckum Wisconsin 4 Andre Brown North Carolina State 5 Rhett Bomar Sam Houston State 6 DeAndre Wright New Mexico 7 Stoney Woodson South Carolina 2008 Rnd Name College Note 1 Kenny Phillips Miami (Fla.) 2 Terrell Thomas USC 3 Mario Manningham Michigan 4 Bryan Kehl BYU 5 Jonathan Goff Vanderbilt 6 Andre Woodson Kentucky 6 Robert Henderson Southern Miss

that the GM makes the 1st pick and leaves the rest to the staff. The drop off is undeniable.

That said, the buck stops here. Or there :). Reese is the top man and has to be held responsible for the performance of his underlings.

In comment 11267446 Victor in CT said:

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Barden, Beckham, Bomar, Wright, Woodson, Dillard, Petrus, Tracy, Austin, Jernigan, G. Jones, Sash, Scott? I only left Hosley (and the other 2012 picks)off that list because it was last year but I think he isn't very good. Do you realize that Prince is the only top flight player from the 2011 draft on the team? Brewer can't crack the lineup and Williams is mediocre at best? Or that from 2009-2012 (4 draft classes) that not ONE player from Round 3 down has become even an average starter?

Wright, Woodson, Tracy, G. Jones, Sash, Scott - 6th and 7th rounders. Jones was actually part of a LB corps on the team that won the SB, and Sash saw considerable time out there as well as a reserve.

Barden, Beckham, Bomar, Dillard, Petrus - on Beckum and Barden you have a point, but both Barden and Beckum were drafted to address holes that later became a strength for the team or there were players with superior production blocking them. Mitch Petrus and Rhett Bomar were both 5th rounders that saw some playing time, but didn't pan out to anything worth keeping around. Consider what you get from the typical 5th rounder, and that's not too hard to forgive.

Andre Brown would've been a good pick, had he not been continuously injured he runs hard and well for a 4th round pick. Will Beatty has been good enough up until now

There are definitely some busts, but what GM doesn't draft some busts? Austin counts as one, unless he goes on to some stellar career elsewhere and then you could count it as an indictment of the coaching staff (I doubt it). Jernigan is highly useless, and for a 3rd rounder you'd hope for a whole lot more.

Reese has done an excellent job since 07. He's had the benefit of drafting (relatively) high only once, and he hit the jackpot with it. He's done great work with the high draft picks, and found a few good finds. He's certainly missed the mark a few times as well, but even the best of them do.

started with Tucker Frederickson. I was looking for that guy to be a HOFer

It's better to be lucky then good. Won two championships with underdog teams on the road while having subpar drafts, free agent signings, and not handling the salary cap every well. The two championships outweigh everything else IMO.

here. They are getting little to no impact from Rd 3 and down, not even good special teams players. And I apologize in advance, but Barden, Beckham, Bomar, Dillard, Petrus should be called the Grinch - STINK, STANK, STUNK. None of them could play.

here. They are getting little to no impact from Rd 3 and down, not even good special teams players.

comment. It was uncalled for

In the pre-seoson I looked at both and predicted

the best we could expect in 2013 would be 8 and 8.

Now,It may be 3 and 13.

hit free agency, but I think he was pissed about the way the Giants had handled his rehabilitation that year. So he signed with the Eagles for less money than the Giants would have given him and they cut him at the first signs of trouble.

Young players should learn that being proud and trying to get even with your team does not work. The team holds all the cards.

Otherwise, how is he supposed to identify who carries an additional injury risk.

Which of the players drafted had a history of injuries?

If you want to blame JR for the lack of talent, we can have a debate, but blaming Reese for bringing in apparently healthy players, who must pass a bunch of medical examinations, is far fetched.

The injury thing can only be put on the GM/Draft team if there was an injury history that was ignored.

Nevertheless, this Ross thing beginning in 2008 is interesting with the draft demise. Reese cannot hide as he is the sign-off though.

I wonder if they are going to change their methodology/process for next years' picks. We need to find a lot of new starters on this team next year.

I wrote this 5 days ago:




Schwartz on Reese and linebackers

blueblood'11 : 10/5/2013 7:22 am(original post)



Always the first defense
Doomster : 10/5/2013 11:36 am : link : reply
for Reese is, we won two SB's....yes, that happened.....I think more because the stars/planets were aligned or a deal was made with You-Know-Who, more than Reese...

It's been all or nothing with these Giants....you win it all or you don't even win a playoff game, if you even make the playoffs.....

What is scary to me is, our drafts from the third round on, basically have not panned out....there is an occasional Bradshaw, but for the most part nothing....

Even scarier, are the first and second round guys, that play well for 1-2 years, and then fall off the cliff due to injuries.....

draft. Don't worry about names, just what are the top positions of need b/c WE NEED ALOT.

I would think LB (2), GUARD (or RT if we move Pugh), DE, RB, CB and TE are big.

I put some level of importance to the order although can re-think that.

Maybe WR too if Nicks leaves.

Marc Ross

I'd need to see how other GMs did in comparison and even then we wouldn't have a completely accurate gauge of talent evaluation without knowing the dynamic they have with their scouts and who they're listening to etc.

Surely Reese has to be accountable but I think we're also prone to jumping to conclusions given our present circumstances. And acting wildly/shooting from the hip as an owner or GM is better left to the Dan Snyders of the league.

If we need to get in a TE after bringing in Myers, Donnell and Robinson than we need someone in the FO who knows how to pick a tight end. And, man, I hear from everyone how Mike Pope is the best TE coach in the league. With 4 guys on the roster he can't make a complete TE out of any of them?

Reese has been boom or bust. There is no in between. That in between is what fleshes out a team. On this team it's you suck and are out of the league, your name is Jernigan and somehow hold on to a roster spot even though you haven't done jack, you make the team because there's nobody better and we can't afford to bring in anything resembling a decent FA, or you're a quality starter. I'd guess that Reese hits the quality starter category as well as the rest of the league. After that, he sucks.

Unfortunately we know what we have with Myers and he can't play much if he can't block, and Robinson can't find the field so he is an unknown. Donnell may be okay but not as a starter.

Therefore I think we need to find a tight end. Draft or FA

So are sun spots, cancer, bunions, AIDS, erosion, pollution, floods, hurricanes, tsunamis, fires, poverty, crime & Miley Cyrus. He didn't have to make a deal with the devil; he IS the devil. He should be crucified immediately.

For the 4th time I'm posting Ozzie Newsome's picks from 2007-2012 & rather likely the 4th time everyone will ignore it b/c it shows that Reese has done at least as good a job as Newsome, who is - along w/ Reese - rather widely considered 1 of the best GMs:

2012
2 Courtney Upshaw LB - 9 starts, 55 tackles, 1.5 sack 2012
2 Kelechi Osemele OT - starter all 2012
3 Bernard Pierce RB - 4.9 avg/108 carries 2012
4 Gino Gradkowski G - 0 starts 2012; 3 starts @ C this year
4 Christian Thompson S - 0 starts 2012
5 Asa Jackson CB - 1 game 2012
6 Tommy Streeter WR - nada 2012; on BUF 2013
7 Deangelo Tyson DE - 12 tackles 2012

1.5 starters
nada from 5 picks 4-7

2011
1 Jimmy Smith CB - 8 starts, 2 INT, 60 tackles
2 Torrey Smith WR - 33 starts, 115 rec, 15 TDs
3 Jah Reid LG - 7 starts 2012
4 Tandon Doss WR - 0 starts, 7 rec 2012; OOF 2013
5 Chykie Brown CB - 1 start; 17 tackles
5 Pernell McPhee DE/DT - 6 starts, 7.5 sacks, 47 tackles
6 Tyrod Taylor QB - 9 games, 0 starts, 30 passes
7 Anthony Allen RB - 0 starts, 19 rushes

1 starter
1 decent backup
1 1st round bust so far
nada from 4/5 picks 4-7

2010
2 Sergio Kindle LB - 3 games, 0 starts, 1 tackle
2 Terrence Cody DT - 20 starts, 78 tackles
3 Ed Dickson TE - 33 starts, 87 rec, 918 yds
4 Dennis Pitta TE - 7 starts, 102 rec, 1075 yds
5 David Reed WR - 0 starts, 5 rec; on INDY 2013
5 Art Jones DE - nada
6 Ramone Harewood T - nada

1 2nd round bust
2 1 year starters
nada from 3/4 picks 4-6

2009
1 Michael Oher T - 67 starts
2 Paul Kruger DE/LB - 6 starts, 16.5 sacks, 72 tackles in 4 BAL yrs; on CLE 2013
3 Lardarius Webb DB/PR/KR - 28 starts, 8 INT, 202 tackles
5 Jason Phillips LB - 1 FF 1 yr w/ BAL; nada w/ CAR 2 yrs
5 Davon Drew TE - nada
6 Cedric Peerman RB - didn't play for BAL; 1 start w/ DET, CIN

1 good starter
1 good 2nd round backup (they got 1 good year out of Kruger)
1 good 3rd round CB/R who has been injured
nada from 3/3 picks 5-6

2008
1 Joe Flacco - obvious; picked 18th
2 Ray Rice - obvious; 3 Pro Bowl; picked 55th
3 Tavares Gooden LB - 12 starts, 56 tackles in 3 BAL yrs,
3 Tom Zbikowski DB/PR/KR - 14 KRs/16 PRs/36 tackles in 4 yrs w/ BAL.
3 Oniel Cousins T - 4 starts in 3 BAL yrs
4 Marcus Smith WR - nada in 2 BAL yrs
4 David Hale T - 0 starts in 2 yrs
6 Haruki Nakamura DB - 0 starts, 26 tackles in 4 BAL yrs
7 Justin Harper WR - 2 games in 1 yr; nada
7 Allen Patrick RB - nada

2 starters, incl. franchise QB & Pro Bowl RB
1 decent backup
nada from 5/5 picks 4-7

2007
1 Ben Grubbs G - 70 starts in 5 BAL yrs; 1 PB; on NO 2012, 2013
3 Yamon Figurs PR/KR - 7.9 PR/23.3 KO avg in 2 BAL yrs;
3 Marshall Yanda T/G - starter 75/86 games; 2 PB
4 Antwan Barnes LB - 0 starts, 5 sack, 1 INT, 22 tackles in 3 BAL yrs
4 Le'Ron McClain RB - 54 starts, 3.8 avg, 12 TDs in 4 BAL yrs; 2 PB
5 Troy Smith QB - 2 starts, 89 passes, 79.7 QBR in 3 BAL yrs
6 Prescott Burgess LB - 0 starts, 9 tackles in 4 BAL yrs

3 starters/Pro Bowlers
1 decent PR/KOR but for only 2 years
nada from 3/4 picks 4-6

Out of 46 picks:
11 starters
5 decent to good backups
4 Pro Bowlers (3 in 2007; 1 played 5 yrs, another 4)
1 franchise QB who a lot of BBIers think is overrated
1 1st round bust so far
1 2nd round bust
3/26 rounds 4-7

I didn't look to see how often those picks were injured. Last week I also posted the # of players on the injury report for every team. Some teams had 30 players on it. I think the Giants were in the middle w/ 15. Lots of players get injured around the NFL.

together?

It's just that you can't write about teams who are 3-2. The giants are in "crisis mode" this season but every teams draft record looks pretty similar.

People like reading about shitty, disastrous teams, especially ones with big time players and coaches. If the giants were 2-3, we wouldn't be reading this.