"It seems pretty clear that something is rotten here. No team should have this many players taken in the top half of drafts either out of the league or playing at far less than their level of ability because of injuries. It's just difficult to parse out what that problem is, exactly. Is it that Reese is somehow identifying and selecting players who are particularly prone to injuries? Is Coughlin overworking his players in a way that's more likely to put young players on the shelf? Can it be just randomness, that a sample size of about 30 players who might have had meaningful careers with the team just happens to have more injuries than anybody would have expected? I honestly don't know the answer..."
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b) a by-product of Reese's concentration on measurables such a height, length and speed.
c) an unlucky coincidence.
You pick.
But that overview is accurate and pretty depressing. How our opinions changes in a matter of months.
2010 BBI Article - ( New Window )
I think you're right in saying this. I wonder how the Giants situation compares to the Cowboys, Eagles, and Redskins.
So, other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?
Sheesh.
It would be interesting to see this analysis done on other teams. But the bottom line is that the Giants are not getting much production from the draft. And when you have a few guys making alot of money...you are suddenly really thin. Injuries happen and then you suck.
I know in hindsight it's 20/20 but at that time, can anyone really fault the giants for drafting Sintim at that time. Who knew he would be injured so often and ineffective because of his injuries?
- Steve Smith
- Kenny Phillips
- Terrell Thomas
Adequate/Depth Players:
- Adam Koets
- Jay Alford
- Kevin Boss (probably would've left anyway)
- Jon Goff
Complete Unknown
- Chad Jones
That's a lot of guys.
He ticks off names and medical conditions: Tony Boselli, left tackle, washed out at 29 after a string of surgeries to his shoulder, knee, and ankle; Leon Searcy, right tackle, badly hobbled by leg woes and waived out of the league at 32; Jeff Novak, left guard, retired at 31 after playing on a leg that bled like rotting meat, and which the then-team doctor so grossly mishandled that a jury awarded Novak $5 million when he sued the physician, Dr. Steve Lucie. "Lucie was no more than a yes-man for Coughlin, but it was the trainers who really put the wood to us," says DeMarco. "They handed out these big, long packets of Vicodin and shitloads of muscle relaxers like Soma and Flexerall and were always hassling you with 'You playing? You're playing, right?' – and that wasn't just on game day. That was Wednesday practice." (The Jacksonville Jaguars declined to comment for this article; the Bengals told 'Men's Journal': "The rules regarding injury treatment procedures are based on the government regulations and the NFL's collective bargaining agreement. The Bengals, to the best of the team's knowledge, are in complete compliance in these areas regarding Brian DeMarco.")
Read more: http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/casualties-of-the-nfl-20121010?page=3#ixzz2hKs6GP9D
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Quote:
we took Clint Sintim 8 picks ahead of LeSean McCoy. Wow!
I know in hindsight it's 20/20 but at that time, can anyone really fault the giants for drafting Sintim at that time. Who knew he would be injured so often and ineffective because of his injuries?
Many said it here during that draft. I don't know who anybody else wanted at that pick, but when I saw McCoy there I was begging they grabbed him. I thought he would be a great player at the time. Sintim seemed like a square peg in round hole, but I thought he'd be good. McCoy was just too good a player to pass there. My thoughts at the time, no hindsight needed.
...but how many of the recent draft picks post draft presser included "This is a great pick because if not for (knee/foot/whatever) he'd have been 2 rounds higher, 30 picks higher, whatever?
Ronnie
Barnes.
It seems like from the time he was head trainer, and currently head of the medical program, guys have been injury prone, especially with long term hammy problems keeping guys off the field 'forever'.
I know some odd stuff has happened with players getting major hurts in practice, like blowing out a teammates knee, or a cleat getting stuck in the field, but our guys are either unhealthy to begin with, clutsy, it's just a matter of stuff happening.
I like the idea of a team by team comparison, but I still feel something is wrong with how they are conditioned.
I don't know if there is anything to this story or not, but singling out the trainer seems like an odd response.
For most football players, health is a secondary concern throughout an entire life of building up to making it to the NFL. Staying in the NFL is even tougher than making it to the NFL, for all but the elite few. Most players probably do worse damage to themselves by listening to idiot bosses who are going to waive them if they call in sick.
The general failure of that draft class I think was a turning point for this franchise. It is reasonably possible that in 10 months our only asset from that draft will be a left tackle with an albatross contract.
Agreed. I don't have the facts but wouldn't be surprised if a similar article could be written about every team in the league. Three facts are evident:
1.) It's a brutal game and injuries are a part of it.
2.) The NFL is played at such a high skill level with such little margin for error that once injured and knocked even a little off one's game, it's hard to come back.
3.) Projecting from college excellence to pro adequacy is a crap shoot.
because they use same stadium as we do ..
Otherwise, there's really no one you can point to and say bummer. Chad Jones never had a chance to show anything. At best, there's a couple like Goff who looked promising before getting injured, but there's also a bunch who looked promising, never got injured, and never panned out.
Overall, there's a lot of misses, a lot of never played in NFL, and a lot who played, but probably shouldn't have (like Barden).
I wonder if it has to do with our supposed reliance on the three cone drill as a predictor of pro success. Is it possible that knees that allow rapid change of direction are more fragile and susceptible to tears? Looser joints to start with?
"DeOssie...is one of the league's most notable long snappers." That's kind of an oxymoron, isn't it? Since the long snapper is on the field, what, 10 plays?, I guess he would be relatively unscathed.
Steve Smith out of football altogether...Terrible...My favorite Giant of 2009. Mr. Third Down, how we could use you now.
I'm actually surprised Barden (6'6" and was good the one game he started), G. Jones (heralded out of Mich. State), Tyler Sash (solid STer), and Jake Ballard (good, diamond-in-the-rough when healthy) haven't caught on elsewhere.
I would like to see the hybrid turn/grass system Green Bay uses implemented because it has more give and prevents a lot of the ACL injuries we se.
I think Reese does have the tendency to "overthink the room" regarding drafting players projected to be early round picks who fall due to injury concerns or being "too raw".
I'm dating myself, but when I think of Reese's drafts I think about the 70s TV show The Six Million Dollar Man "We can rebuild him ... make him better than he was ...".
Too much reliance on players magically getting healthy or getting "coached up". Draft solid, healthy players with excellent in game performance. I think Pugh more fits this mold, so maybe Reese is learning although D. Moore is more of the former.
But that overview is accurate and pretty depressing. How our opinions changes in a matter of months.
Couldn't agree more. There, in a nutshell, is the Giants problem. Doesn't put a favorable light on the Reese.
Again, is this more or less than what the average teams had to deal with? Not sure. But it sure seems like a lot.
I see what you did there giantfanboy! YOU! You are GOOD!
this was a first guess by many, not a second guess
Mort it can be said with the Nassib pick (don't need..Eli) this past one. Just saying
Passing on McCoy to grab Sintim. I know it was posted that hindsight 20/20 and I agree, but if he truly drafted BPA McCoy would've been the pick. JMHO
Really? Who? Steve Smith? Kenny Phillips? Mario Manningham? These guys washed out because they weren't good to begin with?
Jay Alford was showing promise as a rotational DT when he got hurt, enough to merit another team picking him up after. Jake Ballard showed enough for the Pats to claim him off waivers. Hell, even the Eagles tried Steve Smith and Kenny Phillips to see if they had anything left.
Reading the article and being left with the impression that Reese isn't picking talented players means you're missing the point. We've got a seemingly disproportional number of players getting hurt and either having their careers completely cut short or limiting their production.
Is that on Reese? Does he pick guys who get hurt, or who have injury histories? In some cases he does, in others that doesn't seem warranted. Is it Coughlin? Is it the turf? The training regimen? Their diets? Their shoes? Or is there no correlation whatsoever and it's just dumb luck?
I would like to see comparisons with other teams, specifically the Jets to see if perhaps our field turf is part of the problem. it could also be the turf we use in the practice facility.
I only left Hosley (and the other 2012 picks)off that list because it was last year but I think he isn't very good.
Do you realize that Prince is the only top flight player from the 2011 draft on the team? Brewer can't crack the lineup and Williams is mediocre at best? Or that from 2009-2012 (4 draft classes) that not ONE player from Round 3 down has become even an average starter?
While finding the next pro-bowler in Rd 1 and 2 is clearly much harder than we would all agree, how can Reese not pick guys in Rd 3 and later that just become avg. starters or even reliable backups?
While finding the next pro-bowler in Rd 1 and 2 is clearly much harder than we would all agree, how can Reese not pick guys in Rd 3 and later that just become avg. starters or even reliable backups?
I know Jimmy. And that's why the special teams suck too. They aren't getting anything from the middle and late rounds.
But if you didn't think that then, then where did the talented players come from to make you think they would do better? Is the mix on this team any different than that on any other team? Are you wrong now about the talent level on the team, or were you wrong at the beginning of the season?
My notion is that teams that have good luck with injuries tend to have good seasons, teams that have bad luck with injuries tend to have bad seasons. Talent matters, but sometimes less than people think. Was it the Giants style of drafting that made our 3rd round draft choice wind up in an auto accident? If the Giants were in the AFC East instead of the Patriots, would they seem like a better team because of the inferior competition? Who knows? we had enough talent and enough luck to win 2 Superbowls in the last decade, and who knows when that will happen again? It's a rough ride......
But if you didn't think that then, then where did the talented players come from to make you think they would do better? Is the mix on this team any different than that on any other team? Are you wrong now about the talent level on the team, or were you wrong at the beginning of the season?
My notion is that teams that have good luck with injuries tend to have good seasons, teams that have bad luck with injuries tend to have bad seasons. Talent matters, but sometimes less than people think. Was it the Giants style of drafting that made our 3rd round draft choice wind up in an auto accident? If the Giants were in the AFC East instead of the Patriots, would they seem like a better team because of the inferior competition? Who knows? we had enough talent and enough luck to win 2 Superbowls in the last decade, and who knows when that will happen again? It's a rough ride......
I think the old guys just got older, and the potential replacements (Brewer, etc) have not stepped up.
Quote:
recall that we had just won a Super Bowl, we had Bradshaw, Ward and Jacobs (and Ware was well thought of). Maybe the value was there but it did not appear like RB would be a need for a long while---and it wasn't.
Mort it can be said with the Nassib pick (don't need..Eli) this past one. Just saying
Arguably there is a need for a quality backup and a bonus would be one who in 3-4 years might be able to replace a then 37 year old QB. If you are/were content with Painter/Carr, then it was unnecessary. But I don't think we were secure w/Carr and I am sure we're not with Painter.
And if you're going to quibble about taking someone with a higher grade than the spot in the draft, it would be more likely a problem in the 2nd (where presumably there would not be such a huge delta) then in the 4th round where the risks are not as great anyway.
I'd point to 2008 onwards when Ross took over. 2007 Reese did his GM job with his Director of College Scouting. After 2007 draft, Ross was hired, and Ross's first draft was 2008. It's not coincidence that since then our drafts have had a lot of issues from rounds 2-5.
Ross took over in 2008 and since then how many swing and misses have we had rounds 2-5? Below are the drafts from Ross's tenure here.
2011
Rnd Name College Note
1 Prince Amukamara Nebraska
2 Marvin Austin North Carolina
3 Jerrel Jernigan Troy
4 James Brewer Indiana
6 Greg Jones Michigan State
6 Tyler Sash Iowa
6 Jacquian Williams South Florida
7 Da'Rel Scott Maryland
2010
Rnd Name College Note
1 Jason Pierre-Paul South Florida
2 Linval Joseph East Carolina
3 Chad Jones LSU
4 Phillip Dillard Nebraska
5 Mitch Petrus Arkansas
6 Adrian Tracy William & Mary
7 Matt Dodge East Carolina
2009
Rnd Name College Note
1 Hakeem Nicks North Carolina
2 Clint Sintim Virginia
2 William Beatty Connecticut
3 Travis Beckum Wisconsin
4 Andre Brown North Carolina State
5 Rhett Bomar Sam Houston State
6 DeAndre Wright New Mexico
7 Stoney Woodson South Carolina
2008
Rnd Name College Note
1 Kenny Phillips Miami (Fla.)
2 Terrell Thomas USC
3 Mario Manningham Michigan
4 Bryan Kehl BYU
5 Jonathan Goff Vanderbilt
6 Andre Woodson Kentucky
6 Robert Henderson Southern Miss
That said, the buck stops here. Or there :). Reese is the top man and has to be held responsible for the performance of his underlings.
I only left Hosley (and the other 2012 picks)off that list because it was last year but I think he isn't very good.
Do you realize that Prince is the only top flight player from the 2011 draft on the team? Brewer can't crack the lineup and Williams is mediocre at best? Or that from 2009-2012 (4 draft classes) that not ONE player from Round 3 down has become even an average starter?
Wright, Woodson, Tracy, G. Jones, Sash, Scott - 6th and 7th rounders. Jones was actually part of a LB corps on the team that won the SB, and Sash saw considerable time out there as well as a reserve.
Barden, Beckham, Bomar, Dillard, Petrus - on Beckum and Barden you have a point, but both Barden and Beckum were drafted to address holes that later became a strength for the team or there were players with superior production blocking them. Mitch Petrus and Rhett Bomar were both 5th rounders that saw some playing time, but didn't pan out to anything worth keeping around. Consider what you get from the typical 5th rounder, and that's not too hard to forgive.
Andre Brown would've been a good pick, had he not been continuously injured he runs hard and well for a 4th round pick. Will Beatty has been good enough up until now
There are definitely some busts, but what GM doesn't draft some busts? Austin counts as one, unless he goes on to some stellar career elsewhere and then you could count it as an indictment of the coaching staff (I doubt it). Jernigan is highly useless, and for a 3rd rounder you'd hope for a whole lot more.
Reese has done an excellent job since 07. He's had the benefit of drafting (relatively) high only once, and he hit the jackpot with it. He's done great work with the high draft picks, and found a few good finds. He's certainly missed the mark a few times as well, but even the best of them do.
the best we could expect in 2013 would be 8 and 8.
Now,It may be 3 and 13.
Young players should learn that being proud and trying to get even with your team does not work. The team holds all the cards.
Which of the players drafted had a history of injuries?
If you want to blame JR for the lack of talent, we can have a debate, but blaming Reese for bringing in apparently healthy players, who must pass a bunch of medical examinations, is far fetched.
Nevertheless, this Ross thing beginning in 2008 is interesting with the draft demise. Reese cannot hide as he is the sign-off though.
I wonder if they are going to change their methodology/process for next years' picks. We need to find a lot of new starters on this team next year.
Schwartz on Reese and linebackers
blueblood'11 : 10/5/2013 7:22 am(original post)
Always the first defense
Doomster : 10/5/2013 11:36 am : link : reply
for Reese is, we won two SB's....yes, that happened.....I think more because the stars/planets were aligned or a deal was made with You-Know-Who, more than Reese...
It's been all or nothing with these Giants....you win it all or you don't even win a playoff game, if you even make the playoffs.....
What is scary to me is, our drafts from the third round on, basically have not panned out....there is an occasional Bradshaw, but for the most part nothing....
Even scarier, are the first and second round guys, that play well for 1-2 years, and then fall off the cliff due to injuries.....
I would think LB (2), GUARD (or RT if we move Pugh), DE, RB, CB and TE are big.
I put some level of importance to the order although can re-think that.
Surely Reese has to be accountable but I think we're also prone to jumping to conclusions given our present circumstances. And acting wildly/shooting from the hip as an owner or GM is better left to the Dan Snyders of the league.
Therefore I think we need to find a tight end. Draft or FA
For the 4th time I'm posting Ozzie Newsome's picks from 2007-2012 & rather likely the 4th time everyone will ignore it b/c it shows that Reese has done at least as good a job as Newsome, who is - along w/ Reese - rather widely considered 1 of the best GMs:
2012
2 Courtney Upshaw LB - 9 starts, 55 tackles, 1.5 sack 2012
2 Kelechi Osemele OT - starter all 2012
3 Bernard Pierce RB - 4.9 avg/108 carries 2012
4 Gino Gradkowski G - 0 starts 2012; 3 starts @ C this year
4 Christian Thompson S - 0 starts 2012
5 Asa Jackson CB - 1 game 2012
6 Tommy Streeter WR - nada 2012; on BUF 2013
7 Deangelo Tyson DE - 12 tackles 2012
1.5 starters
nada from 5 picks 4-7
2011
1 Jimmy Smith CB - 8 starts, 2 INT, 60 tackles
2 Torrey Smith WR - 33 starts, 115 rec, 15 TDs
3 Jah Reid LG - 7 starts 2012
4 Tandon Doss WR - 0 starts, 7 rec 2012; OOF 2013
5 Chykie Brown CB - 1 start; 17 tackles
5 Pernell McPhee DE/DT - 6 starts, 7.5 sacks, 47 tackles
6 Tyrod Taylor QB - 9 games, 0 starts, 30 passes
7 Anthony Allen RB - 0 starts, 19 rushes
1 starter
1 decent backup
1 1st round bust so far
nada from 4/5 picks 4-7
2010
2 Sergio Kindle LB - 3 games, 0 starts, 1 tackle
2 Terrence Cody DT - 20 starts, 78 tackles
3 Ed Dickson TE - 33 starts, 87 rec, 918 yds
4 Dennis Pitta TE - 7 starts, 102 rec, 1075 yds
5 David Reed WR - 0 starts, 5 rec; on INDY 2013
5 Art Jones DE - nada
6 Ramone Harewood T - nada
1 2nd round bust
2 1 year starters
nada from 3/4 picks 4-6
2009
1 Michael Oher T - 67 starts
2 Paul Kruger DE/LB - 6 starts, 16.5 sacks, 72 tackles in 4 BAL yrs; on CLE 2013
3 Lardarius Webb DB/PR/KR - 28 starts, 8 INT, 202 tackles
5 Jason Phillips LB - 1 FF 1 yr w/ BAL; nada w/ CAR 2 yrs
5 Davon Drew TE - nada
6 Cedric Peerman RB - didn't play for BAL; 1 start w/ DET, CIN
1 good starter
1 good 2nd round backup (they got 1 good year out of Kruger)
1 good 3rd round CB/R who has been injured
nada from 3/3 picks 5-6
2008
1 Joe Flacco - obvious; picked 18th
2 Ray Rice - obvious; 3 Pro Bowl; picked 55th
3 Tavares Gooden LB - 12 starts, 56 tackles in 3 BAL yrs,
3 Tom Zbikowski DB/PR/KR - 14 KRs/16 PRs/36 tackles in 4 yrs w/ BAL.
3 Oniel Cousins T - 4 starts in 3 BAL yrs
4 Marcus Smith WR - nada in 2 BAL yrs
4 David Hale T - 0 starts in 2 yrs
6 Haruki Nakamura DB - 0 starts, 26 tackles in 4 BAL yrs
7 Justin Harper WR - 2 games in 1 yr; nada
7 Allen Patrick RB - nada
2 starters, incl. franchise QB & Pro Bowl RB
1 decent backup
nada from 5/5 picks 4-7
2007
1 Ben Grubbs G - 70 starts in 5 BAL yrs; 1 PB; on NO 2012, 2013
3 Yamon Figurs PR/KR - 7.9 PR/23.3 KO avg in 2 BAL yrs;
3 Marshall Yanda T/G - starter 75/86 games; 2 PB
4 Antwan Barnes LB - 0 starts, 5 sack, 1 INT, 22 tackles in 3 BAL yrs
4 Le'Ron McClain RB - 54 starts, 3.8 avg, 12 TDs in 4 BAL yrs; 2 PB
5 Troy Smith QB - 2 starts, 89 passes, 79.7 QBR in 3 BAL yrs
6 Prescott Burgess LB - 0 starts, 9 tackles in 4 BAL yrs
3 starters/Pro Bowlers
1 decent PR/KOR but for only 2 years
nada from 3/4 picks 4-6
Out of 46 picks:
11 starters
5 decent to good backups
4 Pro Bowlers (3 in 2007; 1 played 5 yrs, another 4)
1 franchise QB who a lot of BBIers think is overrated
1 1st round bust so far
1 2nd round bust
3/26 rounds 4-7
I didn't look to see how often those picks were injured. Last week I also posted the # of players on the injury report for every team. Some teams had 30 players on it. I think the Giants were in the middle w/ 15. Lots of players get injured around the NFL.
2008
SF
1. Balmer DT 2008-2012 SF 27GP SEA 11GP-11GS WAS 3GP Out of NFL
2. Rachal G 2008-2012 SF 45GP-38GS CHI 9GP-8GS Out of NFL
3. Smith DB 2008-2011 SF 45GP-7GS Out of NFL
4. Wallace C 2009-2013 SF 1GP HTN TB 8GP PIT
6. Morgan WR 2008-2013 SF 49GP 32GS WAS 20GP 16GS
7. Grant LB 2008-2012 STL 34G 8GS SF 32GP 3GS
2009
SF
1. Crabtree WR 2009-2013 SF 58GP 56GS On IR
3. Coffee RB 2009 SF 14GP 2GS Out of NFL
5. McKillop LB 2009 SF 16GP Out of NFL
5. Davis QB 2009 0GP Out of NFL
6. Pascoe TE 2009-2013 NYG 55GP 27GS
7. Taylor DB 2009-2013 SF 12GP AZ
7. Jean-Francois DT 2009-2013 SF 45GP 2GS IND 2GP 2GS
2010
1. Davis RT 2010-2013 SF 53GP 53GS
1. Iupati LG 2010-2013 SF 49GP 49GS
2. Mays DB 2010-2013 SF 16GP 6GS CIN 30GP 4GS
3. Bowman LB 2010-2013 SF 53GP 38GS
6. Dixon RB 2010-2013 SF 53GP
6. Byham TE 2013-2013 SF 14GP 3GS TB 14GP 4GS
6. Williams WR 2010-2013 SF 34GP 6GS
7. Adams DB 2010-2013 SF 15GP NE 6GP SEA 1GP OAK 20GP 3GS
2011
1. Smith DE 2011-2013 SF 35GP 19GS
2. Kaepernick QB 2011-2013 SF 21GP 12GS
3. Culliver DB 2011-2013 SF 32GP 6GS
4. Hunter RB 2011-2013 SF 32GP 1GS
5. Kilgore OL 2011-2013 SF 17GP
6. Johnson WR 2011-2012 PHI Out of NFL
6. Jones DB 2011-2013 SF 13GP CAR 16GP
7. Miller FB 2011-2013 SF 36GP 26GS
7. Person OL 2011 0GP Out of NFL
7. Holcomb DB 2011-2012 SF JAX Out of NFL
2012
1. Jenkins WR 2012-2013 SF 3GP KC 2GP
2. James RB 2012-2013 SF 6GP
4. Looney G 2012 0GP Out of NFL
5. Fleming OLB 2012 0GP Out of NFL
6. Robinson FS 2012 0GP Out of NFL
6. Slowey C 2012 OAK 0GP Out of NFL
7. Johnson DE 2012-2013 SF 2GP IND 2GP
People like reading about shitty, disastrous teams, especially ones with big time players and coaches. If the giants were 2-3, we wouldn't be reading this.