"It seems pretty clear that something is rotten here. No team should have this many players taken in the top half of drafts either out of the league or playing at far less than their level of ability because of injuries. It's just difficult to parse out what that problem is, exactly. Is it that Reese is somehow identifying and selecting players who are particularly prone to injuries? Is Coughlin overworking his players in a way that's more likely to put young players on the shelf? Can it be just randomness, that a sample size of about 30 players who might have had meaningful careers with the team just happens to have more injuries than anybody would have expected? I honestly don't know the answer..."
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"DeOssie...is one of the league's most notable long snappers." That's kind of an oxymoron, isn't it? Since the long snapper is on the field, what, 10 plays?, I guess he would be relatively unscathed.
Steve Smith out of football altogether...Terrible...My favorite Giant of 2009. Mr. Third Down, how we could use you now.
I'm actually surprised Barden (6'6" and was good the one game he started), G. Jones (heralded out of Mich. State), Tyler Sash (solid STer), and Jake Ballard (good, diamond-in-the-rough when healthy) haven't caught on elsewhere.
I would like to see the hybrid turn/grass system Green Bay uses implemented because it has more give and prevents a lot of the ACL injuries we se.
I think Reese does have the tendency to "overthink the room" regarding drafting players projected to be early round picks who fall due to injury concerns or being "too raw".
I'm dating myself, but when I think of Reese's drafts I think about the 70s TV show The Six Million Dollar Man "We can rebuild him ... make him better than he was ...".
Too much reliance on players magically getting healthy or getting "coached up". Draft solid, healthy players with excellent in game performance. I think Pugh more fits this mold, so maybe Reese is learning although D. Moore is more of the former.
But that overview is accurate and pretty depressing. How our opinions changes in a matter of months.
Couldn't agree more. There, in a nutshell, is the Giants problem. Doesn't put a favorable light on the Reese.
Again, is this more or less than what the average teams had to deal with? Not sure. But it sure seems like a lot.
I see what you did there giantfanboy! YOU! You are GOOD!
this was a first guess by many, not a second guess
Mort it can be said with the Nassib pick (don't need..Eli) this past one. Just saying
Passing on McCoy to grab Sintim. I know it was posted that hindsight 20/20 and I agree, but if he truly drafted BPA McCoy would've been the pick. JMHO
Really? Who? Steve Smith? Kenny Phillips? Mario Manningham? These guys washed out because they weren't good to begin with?
Jay Alford was showing promise as a rotational DT when he got hurt, enough to merit another team picking him up after. Jake Ballard showed enough for the Pats to claim him off waivers. Hell, even the Eagles tried Steve Smith and Kenny Phillips to see if they had anything left.
Reading the article and being left with the impression that Reese isn't picking talented players means you're missing the point. We've got a seemingly disproportional number of players getting hurt and either having their careers completely cut short or limiting their production.
Is that on Reese? Does he pick guys who get hurt, or who have injury histories? In some cases he does, in others that doesn't seem warranted. Is it Coughlin? Is it the turf? The training regimen? Their diets? Their shoes? Or is there no correlation whatsoever and it's just dumb luck?
I would like to see comparisons with other teams, specifically the Jets to see if perhaps our field turf is part of the problem. it could also be the turf we use in the practice facility.
I only left Hosley (and the other 2012 picks)off that list because it was last year but I think he isn't very good.
Do you realize that Prince is the only top flight player from the 2011 draft on the team? Brewer can't crack the lineup and Williams is mediocre at best? Or that from 2009-2012 (4 draft classes) that not ONE player from Round 3 down has become even an average starter?
While finding the next pro-bowler in Rd 1 and 2 is clearly much harder than we would all agree, how can Reese not pick guys in Rd 3 and later that just become avg. starters or even reliable backups?
While finding the next pro-bowler in Rd 1 and 2 is clearly much harder than we would all agree, how can Reese not pick guys in Rd 3 and later that just become avg. starters or even reliable backups?
I know Jimmy. And that's why the special teams suck too. They aren't getting anything from the middle and late rounds.
But if you didn't think that then, then where did the talented players come from to make you think they would do better? Is the mix on this team any different than that on any other team? Are you wrong now about the talent level on the team, or were you wrong at the beginning of the season?
My notion is that teams that have good luck with injuries tend to have good seasons, teams that have bad luck with injuries tend to have bad seasons. Talent matters, but sometimes less than people think. Was it the Giants style of drafting that made our 3rd round draft choice wind up in an auto accident? If the Giants were in the AFC East instead of the Patriots, would they seem like a better team because of the inferior competition? Who knows? we had enough talent and enough luck to win 2 Superbowls in the last decade, and who knows when that will happen again? It's a rough ride......
But if you didn't think that then, then where did the talented players come from to make you think they would do better? Is the mix on this team any different than that on any other team? Are you wrong now about the talent level on the team, or were you wrong at the beginning of the season?
My notion is that teams that have good luck with injuries tend to have good seasons, teams that have bad luck with injuries tend to have bad seasons. Talent matters, but sometimes less than people think. Was it the Giants style of drafting that made our 3rd round draft choice wind up in an auto accident? If the Giants were in the AFC East instead of the Patriots, would they seem like a better team because of the inferior competition? Who knows? we had enough talent and enough luck to win 2 Superbowls in the last decade, and who knows when that will happen again? It's a rough ride......
I think the old guys just got older, and the potential replacements (Brewer, etc) have not stepped up.
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recall that we had just won a Super Bowl, we had Bradshaw, Ward and Jacobs (and Ware was well thought of). Maybe the value was there but it did not appear like RB would be a need for a long while---and it wasn't.
Mort it can be said with the Nassib pick (don't need..Eli) this past one. Just saying
Arguably there is a need for a quality backup and a bonus would be one who in 3-4 years might be able to replace a then 37 year old QB. If you are/were content with Painter/Carr, then it was unnecessary. But I don't think we were secure w/Carr and I am sure we're not with Painter.
And if you're going to quibble about taking someone with a higher grade than the spot in the draft, it would be more likely a problem in the 2nd (where presumably there would not be such a huge delta) then in the 4th round where the risks are not as great anyway.
I'd point to 2008 onwards when Ross took over. 2007 Reese did his GM job with his Director of College Scouting. After 2007 draft, Ross was hired, and Ross's first draft was 2008. It's not coincidence that since then our drafts have had a lot of issues from rounds 2-5.
Ross took over in 2008 and since then how many swing and misses have we had rounds 2-5? Below are the drafts from Ross's tenure here.
2011
Rnd Name College Note
1 Prince Amukamara Nebraska
2 Marvin Austin North Carolina
3 Jerrel Jernigan Troy
4 James Brewer Indiana
6 Greg Jones Michigan State
6 Tyler Sash Iowa
6 Jacquian Williams South Florida
7 Da'Rel Scott Maryland
2010
Rnd Name College Note
1 Jason Pierre-Paul South Florida
2 Linval Joseph East Carolina
3 Chad Jones LSU
4 Phillip Dillard Nebraska
5 Mitch Petrus Arkansas
6 Adrian Tracy William & Mary
7 Matt Dodge East Carolina
2009
Rnd Name College Note
1 Hakeem Nicks North Carolina
2 Clint Sintim Virginia
2 William Beatty Connecticut
3 Travis Beckum Wisconsin
4 Andre Brown North Carolina State
5 Rhett Bomar Sam Houston State
6 DeAndre Wright New Mexico
7 Stoney Woodson South Carolina
2008
Rnd Name College Note
1 Kenny Phillips Miami (Fla.)
2 Terrell Thomas USC
3 Mario Manningham Michigan
4 Bryan Kehl BYU
5 Jonathan Goff Vanderbilt
6 Andre Woodson Kentucky
6 Robert Henderson Southern Miss
That said, the buck stops here. Or there :). Reese is the top man and has to be held responsible for the performance of his underlings.
I only left Hosley (and the other 2012 picks)off that list because it was last year but I think he isn't very good.
Do you realize that Prince is the only top flight player from the 2011 draft on the team? Brewer can't crack the lineup and Williams is mediocre at best? Or that from 2009-2012 (4 draft classes) that not ONE player from Round 3 down has become even an average starter?
Wright, Woodson, Tracy, G. Jones, Sash, Scott - 6th and 7th rounders. Jones was actually part of a LB corps on the team that won the SB, and Sash saw considerable time out there as well as a reserve.
Barden, Beckham, Bomar, Dillard, Petrus - on Beckum and Barden you have a point, but both Barden and Beckum were drafted to address holes that later became a strength for the team or there were players with superior production blocking them. Mitch Petrus and Rhett Bomar were both 5th rounders that saw some playing time, but didn't pan out to anything worth keeping around. Consider what you get from the typical 5th rounder, and that's not too hard to forgive.
Andre Brown would've been a good pick, had he not been continuously injured he runs hard and well for a 4th round pick. Will Beatty has been good enough up until now
There are definitely some busts, but what GM doesn't draft some busts? Austin counts as one, unless he goes on to some stellar career elsewhere and then you could count it as an indictment of the coaching staff (I doubt it). Jernigan is highly useless, and for a 3rd rounder you'd hope for a whole lot more.
Reese has done an excellent job since 07. He's had the benefit of drafting (relatively) high only once, and he hit the jackpot with it. He's done great work with the high draft picks, and found a few good finds. He's certainly missed the mark a few times as well, but even the best of them do.
the best we could expect in 2013 would be 8 and 8.
Now,It may be 3 and 13.
Young players should learn that being proud and trying to get even with your team does not work. The team holds all the cards.
Which of the players drafted had a history of injuries?
If you want to blame JR for the lack of talent, we can have a debate, but blaming Reese for bringing in apparently healthy players, who must pass a bunch of medical examinations, is far fetched.
Nevertheless, this Ross thing beginning in 2008 is interesting with the draft demise. Reese cannot hide as he is the sign-off though.
I wonder if they are going to change their methodology/process for next years' picks. We need to find a lot of new starters on this team next year.
Schwartz on Reese and linebackers
blueblood'11 : 10/5/2013 7:22 am(original post)
Always the first defense
Doomster : 10/5/2013 11:36 am : link : reply
for Reese is, we won two SB's....yes, that happened.....I think more because the stars/planets were aligned or a deal was made with You-Know-Who, more than Reese...
It's been all or nothing with these Giants....you win it all or you don't even win a playoff game, if you even make the playoffs.....
What is scary to me is, our drafts from the third round on, basically have not panned out....there is an occasional Bradshaw, but for the most part nothing....
Even scarier, are the first and second round guys, that play well for 1-2 years, and then fall off the cliff due to injuries.....
I would think LB (2), GUARD (or RT if we move Pugh), DE, RB, CB and TE are big.
I put some level of importance to the order although can re-think that.
Surely Reese has to be accountable but I think we're also prone to jumping to conclusions given our present circumstances. And acting wildly/shooting from the hip as an owner or GM is better left to the Dan Snyders of the league.
Therefore I think we need to find a tight end. Draft or FA